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Should the UK remain in the EU ?

Chang29
Posts: 732
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7/1/2016 12:14:20 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
No, the EU causes great economic and societal harm. The U.K. should exit the EU and have unilateral free trade measures to let British citizen take advantage of goods and services of their own choosing. A free trade agreement should fit on an index card written with a Sharpie, not what the EU has become. People have a basic human right to exchange goods with anyone else regardless of geography, government should protect this right not violate it.
A free market anti-capitalist

If it can be de-centralized, it will be de-centralized.
A1tre
Posts: 223
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7/5/2016 3:36:07 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/1/2016 12:14:20 PM, Chang29 wrote:
A free trade agreement should fit on an index card written with a Sharpie

Dream on my friend :)
LafayetteBis
Posts: 6
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7/5/2016 8:45:57 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
The EU is an assembly of more than 720 million people (less 64 million in Britain) the largest market-economy of any developed entity employing a central governance. It's per capita GDP is lower than the US, $30.2K vs $46.4K - but only because new additions over the past ten years (eastern Europe) have been poor.

Most of the EU-countries are Social Democracies, the principle virtues of which is to assure fairness and equitability (no great Income Disparity, as in the US) amongst its heterogeneous peoples. It functions fairly well, though in a recessionary period presently imported from the US as a result of the Great Recession.

It has two principle characteristics of a Social Democracy - the first being universal Health-Care throughout all its constituent countries and free (or nearly free) Tertiary Education. This latter is a necessity given the great rush of economies towards the Services Industries.

And you would suggest that the greatest advance in the history Europe be put down?

Patent silliness that, and thankfully - even with this last bit of Brexit nonsense - the EU will continue on without the Brits. We can have this conversation in another 3/5 years so see who will be better off - Britain or the rest of the EU ...
Chang29
Posts: 732
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7/6/2016 12:17:19 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/5/2016 8:45:57 PM, LafayetteBis wrote:
The EU is an assembly of more than 720 million people (less 64 million in Britain) the largest market-economy of any developed entity employing a central governance. It's per capita GDP is lower than the US, $30.2K vs $46.4K - but only because new additions over the past ten years (eastern Europe) have been poor.

Most of the EU-countries are Social Democracies, the principle virtues of which is to assure fairness and equitability (no great Income Disparity, as in the US) amongst its heterogeneous peoples. It functions fairly well, though in a recessionary period presently imported from the US as a result of the Great Recession.

It has two principle characteristics of a Social Democracy - the first being universal Health-Care throughout all its constituent countries and free (or nearly free) Tertiary Education. This latter is a necessity given the great rush of economies towards the Services Industries.

And you would suggest that the greatest advance in the history Europe be put down?

Exactly, the EU is not an advance it is a regression. The EU is a liberty killing organization that use access to its people as an economic weapon. All people have a fundamental human right to purchase products from anyone else they please, not one government in the EU or the EU itself recognizes this fact.

Patent silliness that, and thankfully - even with this last bit of Brexit nonsense - the EU will continue on without the Brits. We can have this conversation in another 3/5 years so see who will be better off - Britain or the rest of the EU ...

Britain will be about the same since they do not respect basic human rights.
A free market anti-capitalist

If it can be de-centralized, it will be de-centralized.
Chang29
Posts: 732
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7/6/2016 12:21:37 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/5/2016 8:45:57 PM, LafayetteBis wrote:
The EU is an assembly of more than 720 million people (less 64 million in Britain) the largest market-economy of any developed entity employing a central governance. It's per capita GDP is lower than the US, $30.2K vs $46.4K - but only because new additions over the past ten years (eastern Europe) have been poor.

Most of the EU-countries are Social Democracies, the principle virtues of which is to assure fairness and equitability (no great Income Disparity, as in the US) amongst its heterogeneous peoples. It functions fairly well, though in a recessionary period presently imported from the US as a result of the Great Recession.

It has two principle characteristics of a Social Democracy - the first being universal Health-Care throughout all its constituent countries and free (or nearly free) Tertiary Education. This latter is a necessity given the great rush of economies towards the Services Industries.

Violently extracting funds for health care and higher education payment is immoral.


And you would suggest that the greatest advance in the history Europe be put down?

Patent silliness that, and thankfully - even with this last bit of Breaks nonsense - the EU will continue on without the Brits. We can have this conversation in another 3/5 years so see who will be better off - Britain or the rest of the EU ...
A free market anti-capitalist

If it can be de-centralized, it will be de-centralized.
LafayetteBis
Posts: 6
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7/6/2016 5:28:11 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
{No, the EU causes great economic and societal harm. The U.K. should exit the EU and have unilateral free trade measures to let British citizen take advantage of goods and services of their own choosing.}

Balderdash!

Do you live in the UK? Do you know what "choices" they have already? Do you realize the number of jobs that will be lost by the vote, particularly in London which voted massively to stay in. Brexit may add as much as a percentage point to Britain's unemployment rate presently at 5.4%.

Where's the goodness in that result?

In fact, you don't know much at all. Do you ... ?
LafayetteBis
Posts: 6
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7/6/2016 5:39:29 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
{Violently extracting funds for health care and higher education payment is immoral.}

What violence?

The UK has one of the finest HC systems in the world. See the WHO Study ranking here: https://en.wikipedia.org... - it is ranked 18th out of 191 countries.

Whilst the US, which spends twice per capita than any EU country, is ranked 31st. Why? Because when the study was done, 16% of Americans were receiving no healthcare whatsoever. The US HC system is very largely privatized and remains a boondoggle for Insurance Company profiteers.

Get your facts right - otherwise, you are just blathering in a blog ...
Chang29
Posts: 732
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7/6/2016 5:51:19 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/6/2016 5:28:11 AM, LafayetteBis wrote:
{No, the EU causes great economic and societal harm. The U.K. should exit the EU and have unilateral free trade measures to let British citizen take advantage of goods and services of their own choosing.}

Balderdash!

Do you live in the UK? Do you know what "choices" they have already? Do you realize the number of jobs that will be lost by the vote, particularly in London which voted massively to stay in. Brexit may add as much as a percentage point to Britain's unemployment rate presently at 5.4%.

Where's the goodness in that result?

In fact, you don't know much at all. Do you ... ?

The goodness is the every person's fundamental human rights are respected and protected, not the wealth of a few Londoners.

Are you living on an 1850's southern plantation, denying human rights for economic gain?
A free market anti-capitalist

If it can be de-centralized, it will be de-centralized.
Duuder
Posts: 1
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7/6/2016 7:47:24 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
It is not true that it would be so bad for the UK to leave the European Union. You can say what you want the EU is not built very well for obtaining economic growth. There are simply too many problems within the union to create high growh.

Face the facts, the European Union has from 2005- 2015 (11 years) had only an average GDP growth of 0,8% annually.
Almost all developing nations in the world that are outside the EU beat this by far, even the countries in Europe.

Average annual GDP growth rate between 2005 and 2015
Australia - 2,8%
Iceland - 2,3%
New Zealand - 2%
Switzerland - 2%
Canada - 1,8%
Norway - 1,4%
The European Union - 0,8%

Well then you might think that Germany must have had really good growh the same period. Germany had only 1,4% in annual average GDP growth in this period. The best country of the relative rich countries in Europe in this period was Sweden that had 1,9% average GDP growth.

Being in the European union seems to be wors for economic growth than being inside. So please stop bladdering about that so many jobs will be lost. All in all it is not true. Most likely the UK will gain being outside the EU.

There is a good article about the problems of the European union here. Just use google translate to read the article. http://newsfeeda.com...
BillSPrestonEsq
Posts: 140
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7/7/2016 3:05:28 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/6/2016 5:39:29 AM, LafayetteBis wrote:
{Violently extracting funds for health care and higher education payment is immoral.}

What violence?

The UK has one of the finest HC systems in the world. See the WHO Study ranking here: https://en.wikipedia.org... - it is ranked 18th out of 191 countries.

Whilst the US, which spends twice per capita than any EU country, is ranked 31st. Why? Because when the study was done, 16% of Americans were receiving no healthcare whatsoever. The US HC system is very largely privatized and remains a boondoggle for Insurance Company profiteers.

Get your facts right - otherwise, you are just blathering in a blog ...

Yes the US spends a crazy amount of money on healthcare, and you blame it on privatization? Have you ever worked in a hospital? Or have you done any research on how hospitals are regulated in this country? The government is responsible for the high costs, not privatization. It is the corrupt regulatory practices , it is the unions, and yes it is the companies, BUT, without the help of government those companies would be destroyed by the competition. Right now there isn't much competition at all because of the red tape. It is one of the most difficult things to research in my opinion, but if you look hard enough you will come to the same conclusion. It is a disaster of cronyism, misinformation and waste.
BillSPrestonEsq
Posts: 140
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7/7/2016 3:08:03 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/6/2016 7:47:24 PM, Duuder wrote:
It is not true that it would be so bad for the UK to leave the European Union. You can say what you want the EU is not built very well for obtaining economic growth. There are simply too many problems within the union to create high growh.

Face the facts, the European Union has from 2005- 2015 (11 years) had only an average GDP growth of 0,8% annually.
Almost all developing nations in the world that are outside the EU beat this by far, even the countries in Europe.

Average annual GDP growth rate between 2005 and 2015
Australia - 2,8%
Iceland - 2,3%
New Zealand - 2%
Switzerland - 2%
Canada - 1,8%
Norway - 1,4%
The European Union - 0,8%

Well then you might think that Germany must have had really good growh the same period. Germany had only 1,4% in annual average GDP growth in this period. The best country of the relative rich countries in Europe in this period was Sweden that had 1,9% average GDP growth.

Being in the European union seems to be wors for economic growth than being inside. So please stop bladdering about that so many jobs will be lost. All in all it is not true. Most likely the UK will gain being outside the EU.

There is a good article about the problems of the European union here. Just use google translate to read the article. http://newsfeeda.com...

Agreed
Boneyard
Posts: 15
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7/8/2016 2:54:55 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/7/2016 3:08:03 AM, BillSPrestonEsq wrote:
At 7/6/2016 7:47:24 PM, Duuder wrote:
It is not true that it would be so bad for the UK to leave the European Union. You can say what you want the EU is not built very well for obtaining economic growth. There are simply too many problems within the union to create high growh.

Face the facts, the European Union has from 2005- 2015 (11 years) had only an average GDP growth of 0,8% annually.
Almost all developing nations in the world that are outside the EU beat this by far, even the countries in Europe.

Average annual GDP growth rate between 2005 and 2015
Australia - 2,8%
Iceland - 2,3%
New Zealand - 2%
Switzerland - 2%
Canada - 1,8%
Norway - 1,4%
The European Union - 0,8%

Well then you might think that Germany must have had really good growh the same period. Germany had only 1,4% in annual average GDP growth in this period. The best country of the relative rich countries in Europe in this period was Sweden that had 1,9% average GDP growth.

Being in the European union seems to be wors for economic growth than being inside. So please stop bladdering about that so many jobs will be lost. All in all it is not true. Most likely the UK will gain being outside the EU.

There is a good article about the problems of the European union here. Just use google translate to read the article. http://newsfeeda.com...

Agreed
***************************************************************
There be some nonsense posts here that I would like to respond to.
The negativity about the European project is abysmal. The best thing to happen to Europe and its people has been the Union. Peace and prosperity have become so matter of fact so ubiquitous that the lunatics think its time to build the asylum anew.
Lots of talk of trade and how its failing but little evaluation of the facts. Europe is the largest economy in the world exporting 1.6 trillion or 13% of GDP in 2009(http://trade.ec.europa.eu...). Exports have remained stable despite the recession and despite the growth of emerging markets. And this is something not taken into account when belittling the EU as a trade block, emerging markets such as China, India and Asia are here to compete not role over.
The thinking that the UK will be better off without the muscle provided by being in the EU is wishful. Being a small fish makes you prey for the big fish, anyone who thinks the UK trade will be better off out than in is deluded. That these people think China or whoever will give Britain a special deal over and above what they have with the EU is based on ideology not facts.
Jobs will be lost, not blathering my friend but reality. Britain's economy is shrinking as I type this. Without the treasury/bank of England propping it up with 250billion the downturn would have been crippling instead of severe. This will be felt more and more in the coming weeks as the 250 billion is whittled down and no solution is found.
I would like to know what these problems are with the EU that you see are detrimental to growth, substantiate your claim or retract it.
Overall I find the pro right fundies views on Europe to be useless. They serve one purpose and that is to divide under the illusion that competition leads to freedoms that somehow the EU can't supply, to choose something or other because change is good, right?
Anyone can open a history book and find that the only time Europe has had sustained peace has been due to the creation and ideals of the EU.

That is all.
LafayetteBis
Posts: 6
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7/8/2016 5:22:01 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
The negativity about the European project is abysmal.

Let's not dishearten too quickly. We shall see over the next year what happens to the UK, as it tries to"repair" the damage by assuring the rest of Europe that it should still want to set up offices and create employment in London. (Which overwhelmingly voted to remain in the EU.)

The fact of the matter is that this simple question, which has an impact upon the UK that reaches far into the future, was based upon present sentiment - one that has been seriously impacted by the migrant wave that supposedly "threatens" UK borders.

No grouping of states should have to absorb such a huge wave of migrants, regardless of the circumstances. The problems in Syria are wholly Syria's problems, it is a question of religious conflicts between two Muslim sects (Chiites and Sunnis) . Putin was using the context to take the heat of himself in a country that is failing economically. (And militarily he wanted to protect Russia's only seaport with access to the Mediterranean Sea (in Latakia.)

If the EU refused military force (beyond high altitude bombing) whilst the Syrian President was throwing canisters of dynamite upon a civilian population from helicopters, then it had to assume the consequences. Which was the massive exit from Syria of migrants.

The EU clearly did not have its "thinking-hat" on as regards this conflict, because there is no real Central Governance of EU foreign-policy. Which is why Angela was so hard-put to find a solution on her own.

Brussels needs a real "President", to replace the 28-nation running of important economic and foreign policies, which has served its purpose and needs badly replacing ...
Boneyard
Posts: 15
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7/8/2016 6:50:12 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
..
While I agree with LafayetteBis take on this I would add, the problems of immigration into Europe can be traced back to Gulf war 2 and the vacuum left after Saddam was deposed. I did read an article which stated that now the UK has fecked off it leaves the EU free to pursue a European president, which they expect to happen some time about 2030. The irony of brexit.
LafayetteBis
Posts: 6
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7/8/2016 10:35:11 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
Violently extracting funds for health care and higher education payment is immoral.

In a Social Democracy there is no violence to "extracting funds", since taxation is understood to mean "support for the common weal" of the nation. Yes, I mean "weal", which is an old American word that means "that which is best for someone or someones".

Thus, in a Social Democracy, taxation is simply the payment exacted to subvention numerous public services, notably, a National Health Service and very low cost Tertiary Education. Both of which benefit all individuals first and the entire country as a consequence.

Of course, for this to work properly, progressive taxation is necessary - or the inordinate "take" by upper-incomes simply goes to create family dynasties as the unearned income-become-wealth is simply shifted forward in time. Which is why it must be very heavily taxed.

This ends my exchange as I dislike immensely closed minds, and you have proven already amply to be such a disgusting individual.

Over and out - and do to take a long walk off a short pier ...
BillSPrestonEsq
Posts: 140
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7/9/2016 12:48:43 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/8/2016 2:54:55 AM, Boneyard wrote:
At 7/7/2016 3:08:03 AM, BillSPrestonEsq wrote:
At 7/6/2016 7:47:24 PM, Duuder wrote:
It is not true that it would be so bad for the UK to leave the European Union. You can say what you want the EU is not built very well for obtaining economic growth. There are simply too many problems within the union to create high growh.

Face the facts, the European Union has from 2005- 2015 (11 years) had only an average GDP growth of 0,8% annually.
Almost all developing nations in the world that are outside the EU beat this by far, even the countries in Europe.

Average annual GDP growth rate between 2005 and 2015
Australia - 2,8%
Iceland - 2,3%
New Zealand - 2%
Switzerland - 2%
Canada - 1,8%
Norway - 1,4%
The European Union - 0,8%

Well then you might think that Germany must have had really good growh the same period. Germany had only 1,4% in annual average GDP growth in this period. The best country of the relative rich countries in Europe in this period was Sweden that had 1,9% average GDP growth.

Being in the European union seems to be wors for economic growth than being inside. So please stop bladdering about that so many jobs will be lost. All in all it is not true. Most likely the UK will gain being outside the EU.

There is a good article about the problems of the European union here. Just use google translate to read the article. http://newsfeeda.com...

Agreed
***************************************************************
There be some nonsense posts here that I would like to respond to.
The negativity about the European project is abysmal. The best thing to happen to Europe and its people has been the Union. Peace and prosperity have become so matter of fact so ubiquitous that the lunatics think its time to build the asylum anew.
Lots of talk of trade and how its failing but little evaluation of the facts. Europe is the largest economy in the world exporting 1.6 trillion or 13% of GDP in 2009(http://trade.ec.europa.eu...). Exports have remained stable despite the recession and despite the growth of emerging markets. And this is something not taken into account when belittling the EU as a trade block, emerging markets such as China, India and Asia are here to compete not role over.
The thinking that the UK will be better off without the muscle provided by being in the EU is wishful. Being a small fish makes you prey for the big fish, anyone who thinks the UK trade will be better off out than in is deluded. That these people think China or whoever will give Britain a special deal over and above what they have with the EU is based on ideology not facts.
Jobs will be lost, not blathering my friend but reality. Britain's economy is shrinking as I type this. Without the treasury/bank of England propping it up with 250billion the downturn would have been crippling instead of severe. This will be felt more and more in the coming weeks as the 250 billion is whittled down and no solution is found.
I would like to know what these problems are with the EU that you see are detrimental to growth, substantiate your claim or retract it.
Overall I find the pro right fundies views on Europe to be useless. They serve one purpose and that is to divide under the illusion that competition leads to freedoms that somehow the EU can't supply, to choose something or other because change is good, right?
Anyone can open a history book and find that the only time Europe has had sustained peace has been due to the creation and ideals of the EU.

That is all.

"substantiate your claim or retract it."

You basically gave an emotionally charged response to numbers. Those are the stats. You could claim the EU has brought peace to Europe, but that is an unsubstantiated claim. There really isn't any reasoning behind it either. There is no reason for war between EU countries and that's probably how the EU was able to form in the first place. Markets have panicked? So what? And they will rebound because the UK has the second largest economy in the EU.
BillSPrestonEsq
Posts: 140
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7/9/2016 1:13:00 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/8/2016 10:35:11 AM, LafayetteBis wrote:
Violently extracting funds for health care and higher education payment is immoral.

In a Social Democracy there is no violence to "extracting funds", since taxation is understood to mean "support for the common weal" of the nation. Yes, I mean "weal", which is an old American word that means "that which is best for someone or someones".


Words..

Thus, in a Social Democracy, taxation is simply the payment exacted to subvention numerous public services, notably, a National Health Service and very low cost Tertiary Education. Both of which benefit all individuals first and the entire country as a consequence.


Words.. yes.

Of course, for this to work properly, progressive taxation is necessary - or the inordinate "take" by upper-incomes simply goes to create family dynasties as the unearned income-become-wealth is simply shifted forward in time. Which is why it must be very heavily taxed.


Mm hmm oh?

This ends my exchange as I dislike immensely closed minds, and you have proven already amply to be such a disgusting individual.

Over and out - and do to take a long walk off a short pier ...

Now this comment was obviously not directed towards me, BUT, you are doing what so many others consistently do. You justify VIOLENCE as philanthropy, as charity with such phrases as "support for the common weal of the nation". BS political jargon that has been used like a strong potion to keep people enslaving themselves to some governing body, some small group of men in a fancy building somewhere all part of the same family dynasties you mentioned. You are being conned, you should probably consider the possibility that governments, given their track record for the last couple thousand years don't care about you. No, they take care of themselves and their families and sometimes even their legacies even if we are lucky. Universal healthcare and education and whatever is in fact, and very simply taken by force, through violence. I cannot comment how it works in the EU, but I have spent many years now observing and studying the way it works in the US. I know and understand very clearly how these things are used for political gain, financial gain for a select few, and all at the expense of the taxpayer. So please spare me and everyone else the propaganda speak about how tax isn't violently extracted and 'common weal' blah, blah, blah,.. great thanks.
bballcrook21
Posts: 4,468
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7/9/2016 1:27:48 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/1/2016 12:14:20 PM, Chang29 wrote:
No, the EU causes great economic and societal harm. The U.K. should exit the EU and have unilateral free trade measures to let British citizen take advantage of goods and services of their own choosing. A free trade agreement should fit on an index card written with a Sharpie, not what the EU has become. People have a basic human right to exchange goods with anyone else regardless of geography, government should protect this right not violate it.

Agreed
If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand. - Friedman

Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. -Friedman

Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program. - Friedman

Society will never be free until the last Democrat is strangled with the entrails of the last Communist.
Boneyard
Posts: 15
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7/9/2016 2:11:43 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
BillSPrestonEsq wrote:
"substantiate your claim or retract it."

You basically gave an emotionally charged response to numbers. Those are the stats. You could claim the EU has brought peace to Europe, but that is an unsubstantiated claim. There really isn't any reasoning behind it either. There is no reason for war between EU countries and that's probably how the EU was able to form in the first place. Markets have panicked? So what? And they will rebound because the UK has the second largest economy in the EU.

*******************************************************************

This is pretty typical of the rubbish brexitiers continue to espouse despite the evidence. Before the referendum they sold their lies as patriotism, after the referendum once the truth came out they moved the goalposts. Now what we hear is, just wait everything will be better, yet with each day everything just gets worse.
Now I have been charged with an emotional response to numbers, Yea dude I'm hard for the number 3.
If you stand by those percentages you quoted please post a link, refuting your emotional numbers I gave you a link and as you may have noticed our conclutions don't match.
You claiming the 'EU facilitated peace in Europe has not been substantiated' has me thinking that perhaps your knowledge of European history is limited to old war movies. The substantiation of my claim that the EU is paramount in keeping the peace between the nations of Europe is the fact that we have peace between the nations of Europe and have had it since the inception of the Union. If you want to attack that statement you will have to do better than hand waving it away. Your simplistic statement is one I would expect from a child, perhaps I am doing you a disservice and you are a child. If that is the case go spend a few hours surfing the web, and stay away from sites that agree with your position. You will never learn anything by reading articles that agree with your ideology.
You seem unconcerned that the markets have panicked, 'so what' you say. The lack of any understanding of how a weakness in the markets trickles down to the people resulting in less money in pockets is synonymous of the carefree irresponsibility expressed in the leave vote. Remain laid the truth on the table and the brexitiers pissed all over it. Will you still be so resolute in your conviction when the NHS begins to crumble or the services you partake of evaporate. Its hard to admit when you are wrong so I'm sure you will double down and do your best to ignore it.
News flash, the UK had the 2nd largest economy in Europe. In the 2 weeks since brexit the UK has fallen to 3rd and 6th in the world respectively.

That is all.
BillSPrestonEsq
Posts: 140
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7/9/2016 2:56:30 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/9/2016 2:11:43 AM, Boneyard wrote:
BillSPrestonEsq wrote:
"substantiate your claim or retract it."

You basically gave an emotionally charged response to numbers. Those are the stats. You could claim the EU has brought peace to Europe, but that is an unsubstantiated claim. There really isn't any reasoning behind it either. There is no reason for war between EU countries and that's probably how the EU was able to form in the first place. Markets have panicked? So what? And they will rebound because the UK has the second largest economy in the EU.

*******************************************************************

This is pretty typical of the rubbish brexitiers continue to espouse despite the evidence. Before the referendum they sold their lies as patriotism, after the referendum once the truth came out they moved the goalposts. Now what we hear is, just wait everything will be better, yet with each day everything just gets worse.
Now I have been charged with an emotional response to numbers, Yea dude I'm hard for the number 3.
If you stand by those percentages you quoted please post a link, refuting your emotional numbers I gave you a link and as you may have noticed our conclutions don't match.
You claiming the 'EU facilitated peace in Europe has not been substantiated' has me thinking that perhaps your knowledge of European history is limited to old war movies. The substantiation of my claim that the EU is paramount in keeping the peace between the nations of Europe is the fact that we have peace between the nations of Europe and have had it since the inception of the Union. If you want to attack that statement you will have to do better than hand waving it away. Your simplistic statement is one I would expect from a child, perhaps I am doing you a disservice and you are a child. If that is the case go spend a few hours surfing the web, and stay away from sites that agree with your position. You will never learn anything by reading articles that agree with your ideology.
You seem unconcerned that the markets have panicked, 'so what' you say. The lack of any understanding of how a weakness in the markets trickles down to the people resulting in less money in pockets is synonymous of the carefree irresponsibility expressed in the leave vote. Remain laid the truth on the table and the brexitiers pissed all over it. Will you still be so resolute in your conviction when the NHS begins to crumble or the services you partake of evaporate. Its hard to admit when you are wrong so I'm sure you will double down and do your best to ignore it.
News flash, the UK had the 2nd largest economy in Europe. In the 2 weeks since brexit the UK has fallen to 3rd and 6th in the world respectively.

That is all.

What evidence is that? It's been days, of course there is going to be a shock of some sort and my prediction is that markets will bounce back. There are all kinds of ultimately beneficial political moves that would initially bring on some uneasiness in markets. Where in your post were those growth stats contradictory? I basically skipped through the political jibberish to the annex where the growth stats look pretty similar. I didn't post them by the way. You can continue to try and insult me, I really don't care, it doesn't prove your point. Again it has been days and so to talk about the size of the UK economy being somehow magically smaller by the amount you claim makes no sense. The markets are only temporarily undervaluing the UK economy, nothing of any real significance has actually changed. And is Germany invading France? England invading Belgium? It makes no sense at all. They make much better trade partners than enemies and they know that and again that's why the EU was formed in the first place.
They are not at peace because of the EU, the EU formed because they are at peace.
bballcrook21
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7/9/2016 3:53:19 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/9/2016 2:56:30 AM, BillSPrestonEsq wrote:
At 7/9/2016 2:11:43 AM, Boneyard wrote:
BillSPrestonEsq wrote:
"substantiate your claim or retract it."

You basically gave an emotionally charged response to numbers. Those are the stats. You could claim the EU has brought peace to Europe, but that is an unsubstantiated claim. There really isn't any reasoning behind it either. There is no reason for war between EU countries and that's probably how the EU was able to form in the first place. Markets have panicked? So what? And they will rebound because the UK has the second largest economy in the EU.

*******************************************************************

This is pretty typical of the rubbish brexitiers continue to espouse despite the evidence. Before the referendum they sold their lies as patriotism, after the referendum once the truth came out they moved the goalposts. Now what we hear is, just wait everything will be better, yet with each day everything just gets worse.
Now I have been charged with an emotional response to numbers, Yea dude I'm hard for the number 3.
If you stand by those percentages you quoted please post a link, refuting your emotional numbers I gave you a link and as you may have noticed our conclutions don't match.
You claiming the 'EU facilitated peace in Europe has not been substantiated' has me thinking that perhaps your knowledge of European history is limited to old war movies. The substantiation of my claim that the EU is paramount in keeping the peace between the nations of Europe is the fact that we have peace between the nations of Europe and have had it since the inception of the Union. If you want to attack that statement you will have to do better than hand waving it away. Your simplistic statement is one I would expect from a child, perhaps I am doing you a disservice and you are a child. If that is the case go spend a few hours surfing the web, and stay away from sites that agree with your position. You will never learn anything by reading articles that agree with your ideology.
You seem unconcerned that the markets have panicked, 'so what' you say. The lack of any understanding of how a weakness in the markets trickles down to the people resulting in less money in pockets is synonymous of the carefree irresponsibility expressed in the leave vote. Remain laid the truth on the table and the brexitiers pissed all over it. Will you still be so resolute in your conviction when the NHS begins to crumble or the services you partake of evaporate. Its hard to admit when you are wrong so I'm sure you will double down and do your best to ignore it.
News flash, the UK had the 2nd largest economy in Europe. In the 2 weeks since brexit the UK has fallen to 3rd and 6th in the world respectively.

That is all.

What evidence is that? It's been days, of course there is going to be a shock of some sort and my prediction is that markets will bounce back. There are all kinds of ultimately beneficial political moves that would initially bring on some uneasiness in markets. Where in your post were those growth stats contradictory? I basically skipped through the political jibberish to the annex where the growth stats look pretty similar. I didn't post them by the way. You can continue to try and insult me, I really don't care, it doesn't prove your point. Again it has been days and so to talk about the size of the UK economy being somehow magically smaller by the amount you claim makes no sense. The markets are only temporarily undervaluing the UK economy, nothing of any real significance has actually changed. And is Germany invading France? England invading Belgium? It makes no sense at all. They make much better trade partners than enemies and they know that and again that's why the EU was formed in the first place.
They are not at peace because of the EU, the EU formed because they are at peace.

Already was a shock because of investors having knee jerk reactions to the Brexit vote, but it already bounced back, being the value of the Pound Sterling and the British stock market. Actually, it's now higher than it was before.
If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand. - Friedman

Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. -Friedman

Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program. - Friedman

Society will never be free until the last Democrat is strangled with the entrails of the last Communist.
Boneyard
Posts: 15
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7/9/2016 5:57:23 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
BillSPrestonEsq wrote:

What evidence is that? It's been days, of course there is going to be a shock of some sort and my prediction is that markets will bounce back. There are all kinds of ultimately beneficial political moves that would initially bring on some uneasiness in markets. Where in your post were those growth stats contradictory? I basically skipped through the political jibberish to the annex where the growth stats look pretty similar. I didn't post them by the way. You can continue to try and insult me, I really don't care, it doesn't prove your point. Again it has been days and so to talk about the size of the UK economy being somehow magically smaller by the amount you claim makes no sense. The markets are only temporarily undervaluing the UK economy, nothing of any real significance has actually changed. And is Germany invading France? England invading Belgium? It makes no sense at all. They make much better trade partners than enemies and they know that and again that's why the EU was formed in the first place.
They are not at peace because of the EU, the EU formed because they are at peace.

***********************************************************************

How old are you? If you are an adult then I will speak to you as such. An insult would be if I called you a dick, which I have not done.
First, on what authority do you predict the UK will bounce back financially when the experts predict a permanent 10% reduction. What insight do you have that eludes these damn experts?
Dude you still have posted no link to where you got your numbers. Without that link I cannot judge how fair they are or even if you interpreted them correctly.
Im getting a feeling that you do not understand finances enough to comment intelligently and don't care either way. It is not magic when the pound has retreated to 30 year lows. You do understand the effect a low pound has when it comes to buying oil or food or kinder eggs? You do, good then you will understand the point of a low pound effecting peoples pockets.
A temporary undervaluing of the British economy. There will be nothing temporary about it, company's are starting to move business over the channel and back into Europe. In the 2 weeks since, the UK has lost more money than the total amount that was ever paid into the EU. The UK credit rating has also tanked so if you think borrowing your way out of this mess is an option you will be disappointed. Don't you absorb the news or is this a case of nah-na-nah I'm not listening?
I can see a lot of the workings of the world make no sense to you. Let me give you the matchbox version. Europe had 2 big bloody wars between nations that spread about the world. When the death and destruction ended in 45 closer cooperation and unity was thought to be preferable than a repeating cycle of war which had been the norm for century's. The first such treaty was the European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC) in 51 followed by European Economic Community (EEC) in 59. The European Union was established under its current name in 93 following the Maastricht Treaty. With further amendments in 2009 with the Lisbon treaty. The idea being that if the nations of Europe are linked by trade and mutual interest the rivalry and combativeness of the pre war years would not spill over into yet another European war, in the 60 years of peace we can categorically say it is working.
This was a victory for the anti intellectual. Racist attacks have increased, the tory's will have a new undemocratically appointed leader and the UK will break under the strain with Scotland being the first to jump ship. The people I feel sorry for are those that understood the arguments and wanted to remain, brexit is forcing those people to pay for the mistakes of others. No wonder they are angry.
BillSPrestonEsq
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7/9/2016 12:50:15 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/9/2016 5:57:23 AM, Boneyard wrote:
BillSPrestonEsq wrote:

What evidence is that? It's been days, of course there is going to be a shock of some sort and my prediction is that markets will bounce back. There are all kinds of ultimately beneficial political moves that would initially bring on some uneasiness in markets. Where in your post were those growth stats contradictory? I basically skipped through the political jibberish to the annex where the growth stats look pretty similar. I didn't post them by the way. You can continue to try and insult me, I really don't care, it doesn't prove your point. Again it has been days and so to talk about the size of the UK economy being somehow magically smaller by the amount you claim makes no sense. The markets are only temporarily undervaluing the UK economy, nothing of any real significance has actually changed. And is Germany invading France? England invading Belgium? It makes no sense at all. They make much better trade partners than enemies and they know that and again that's why the EU was formed in the first place.
They are not at peace because of the EU, the EU formed because they are at peace.

***********************************************************************

How old are you? If you are an adult then I will speak to you as such. An insult would be if I called you a dick, which I have not done.
First, on what authority do you predict the UK will bounce back financially when the experts predict a permanent 10% reduction. What insight do you have that eludes these damn experts?
Dude you still have posted no link to where you got your numbers. Without that link I cannot judge how fair they are or even if you interpreted them correctly.
Im getting a feeling that you do not understand finances enough to comment intelligently and don't care either way. It is not magic when the pound has retreated to 30 year lows. You do understand the effect a low pound has when it comes to buying oil or food or kinder eggs? You do, good then you will understand the point of a low pound effecting peoples pockets.
A temporary undervaluing of the British economy. There will be nothing temporary about it, company's are starting to move business over the channel and back into Europe. In the 2 weeks since, the UK has lost more money than the total amount that was ever paid into the EU. The UK credit rating has also tanked so if you think borrowing your way out of this mess is an option you will be disappointed. Don't you absorb the news or is this a case of nah-na-nah I'm not listening?
I can see a lot of the workings of the world make no sense to you. Let me give you the matchbox version. Europe had 2 big bloody wars between nations that spread about the world. When the death and destruction ended in 45 closer cooperation and unity was thought to be preferable than a repeating cycle of war which had been the norm for century's. The first such treaty was the European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC) in 51 followed by European Economic Community (EEC) in 59. The European Union was established under its current name in 93 following the Maastricht Treaty. With further amendments in 2009 with the Lisbon treaty. The idea being that if the nations of Europe are linked by trade and mutual interest the rivalry and combativeness of the pre war years would not spill over into yet another European war, in the 60 years of peace we can categorically say it is working.
This was a victory for the anti intellectual. Racist attacks have increased, the tory's will have a new undemocratically appointed leader and the UK will break under the strain with Scotland being the first to jump ship. The people I feel sorry for are those that understood the arguments and wanted to remain, brexit is forcing those people to pay for the mistakes of others. No wonder they are angry.

You must think you are really something huh? All the steps leading to the EU were as I mentioned already because of the benefit of trade over war. This is just another over the top condescending post lacking in any real substance. The whole last paragraph of your post I already wrote in one sentence. Just because they are leaving the EU does not mean war is the inevitable consequence, something you seem to be pushing. Trade will always be the reason for not going to war, and trade will not stop even if the whole EU disbanded. The progress of humanity will not disappear without some governing body ruling over it. The 'experts' and I am assuming you mean economists are constantly wrong. Economists are like weather men. And the news can create panics itself.
it has only been frigging days. I am over this. We will see what happens and in a few months I'll come back to this thread. Maybe you're right, maybe the UK economy will suffer because of leaving the EU, maybe not. We shall see. I already said I didn't post the stats. So I can't post the link.
Boneyard
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7/12/2016 1:17:42 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
BillSPrestonEsq wrote:
You must think you are really something huh? All the steps leading to the EU were as I mentioned already because of the benefit of trade over war. This is just another over the top condescending post lacking in any real substance. The whole last paragraph of your post I already wrote in one sentence. Just because they are leaving the EU does not mean war is the inevitable consequence, something you seem to be pushing. Trade will always be the reason for not going to war, and trade will not stop even if the whole EU disbanded. The progress of humanity will not disappear without some governing body ruling over it. The 'experts' and I am assuming you mean economists are constantly wrong. Economists are like weather men. And the news can create panics itself.
it has only been frigging days. I am over this. We will see what happens and in a few months I'll come back to this thread. Maybe you're right, maybe the UK economy will suffer because of leaving the EU, maybe not. We shall see. I already said I didn't post the stats. So I can't post the link.

**********************************************************************
Yes I think I am something, logical and evidence based. If I fail in these departments please let me know I am always open to improving myself.
Where is it I lack substance? You have and continue to give little but emotional rhetoric to argue against.
You really don't understand the essence of the EU nor its value. Imagine California breaking away from the USA, the destabilising aftermath breaks apart America where states reclaim their own agency. Where there used to be cooperation and unity between all states under one flag we now have competing state nations vying for limited trade on a congested market place. You imagine this would be an amicable state of affairs?
You say: 'Trade will always be the reason for not going to war.' When history shows the complete opposite. Nations have waged wars for millennia based on control of trade. Maximising yours whilst minimising your rivals. The formation of the EU was in part conceptualised as an answer to this dilemma.
When economists (experts) predict effect from cause and then those effects become evident a wise man would not dismiss their words. Unless ideology is worth more than truth and for some this is a hurdle they can never jump.
We will see what will be, I predict you won't be back to tell me 'I told ya so'.
BillSPrestonEsq
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7/12/2016 3:05:52 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/12/2016 1:17:42 AM, Boneyard wrote:
BillSPrestonEsq wrote:
You must think you are really something huh? All the steps leading to the EU were as I mentioned already because of the benefit of trade over war. This is just another over the top condescending post lacking in any real substance. The whole last paragraph of your post I already wrote in one sentence. Just because they are leaving the EU does not mean war is the inevitable consequence, something you seem to be pushing. Trade will always be the reason for not going to war, and trade will not stop even if the whole EU disbanded. The progress of humanity will not disappear without some governing body ruling over it. The 'experts' and I am assuming you mean economists are constantly wrong. Economists are like weather men. And the news can create panics itself.
it has only been frigging days. I am over this. We will see what happens and in a few months I'll come back to this thread. Maybe you're right, maybe the UK economy will suffer because of leaving the EU, maybe not. We shall see. I already said I didn't post the stats. So I can't post the link.

**********************************************************************
Yes I think I am something, logical and evidence based. If I fail in these departments please let me know I am always open to improving myself.
Where is it I lack substance? You have and continue to give little but emotional rhetoric to argue against.
You really don't understand the essence of the EU nor its value. Imagine California breaking away from the USA, the destabilising aftermath breaks apart America where states reclaim their own agency. Where there used to be cooperation and unity between all states under one flag we now have competing state nations vying for limited trade on a congested market place. You imagine this would be an amicable state of affairs?
You say: 'Trade will always be the reason for not going to war.' When history shows the complete opposite. Nations have waged wars for millennia based on control of trade. Maximising yours whilst minimising your rivals. The formation of the EU was in part conceptualised as an answer to this dilemma.
When economists (experts) predict effect from cause and then those effects become evident a wise man would not dismiss their words. Unless ideology is worth more than truth and for some this is a hurdle they can never jump.
We will see what will be, I predict you won't be back to tell me 'I told ya so'.

If California decided to leave the US what difference would it make? Would there be any change in what moves in and out of their borders? No, probably not, why would it? Nothing has changed. You act like it is a huge deal and the UK economy will plummet, Why? You haven't given any reason why that would actually happen. What are the actual real changes that would incur a major negative change in trade? And where has history disproven my claim that trade between countries prevents war between them? If we are two people trading, mutually benefiting from one another we are less likely to go to war. Nations have the same self interest preventing them from warring with valuable trade partners.
But I forgot, I am over this conversation, mainly because you're a condescending douche, but also because you haven't made any real point that I find convincing. You did not post information contradicting the low EU growth rates. The EU will continue to post slow growth the more and more Marxist it's policies continue to become. But still I go on.. You claim the EU has somehow prevented war and promoted trade, as if it is some kind of external force holding it's member nations together. I say it is the natural progress of those nations and it's people to choose trade over war purely out of their own self interest that the EU was 'allowed' to form in the first place. This is a chicken or the egg kind of argument. We can agree to disagree. And oh yes I will be back.. we shall see.. oh we shall see..
Boneyard
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7/12/2016 5:17:30 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
BillSPrestonEsq wrote:

If California decided to leave the US what difference would it make? Would there be any change in what moves in and out of their borders? No, probably not, why would it? Nothing has changed. You act like it is a huge deal and the UK economy will plummet, Why? You haven't given any reason why that would actually happen. What are the actual real changes that would incur a major negative change in trade? And where has history disproven my claim that trade between countries prevents war between them? If we are two people trading, mutually benefiting from one another we are less likely to go to war. Nations have the same self interest preventing them from warring with valuable trade partners.
But I forgot, I am over this conversation, mainly because you're a condescending douche, but also because you haven't made any real point that I find convincing. You did not post information contradicting the low EU growth rates. The EU will continue to post slow growth the more and more Marxist it's policies continue to become. But still I go on.. You claim the EU has somehow prevented war and promoted trade, as if it is some kind of external force holding it's member nations together. I say it is the natural progress of those nations and it's people to choose trade over war purely out of their own self interest that the EU was 'allowed' to form in the first place. This is a chicken or the egg kind of argument. We can agree to disagree. And oh yes I will be back.. we shall see.. oh we shall see..

**********************************************************************

If California left the USA what difference would it make. Chaos that's what difference. If California left it would be the 5th largest economy on the planet. Could America afford to loose such a big hitter. Perhaps though it would cause plenty discomfort and anguish and a period of painful levelling out. Would America be favourable to California considering the financial hurt inflicted, I would guess not.
The financial reasoning for the UK to be part of the EU has not gone away. It is better in than out. This decision was hinged by talk of immigration and sovereignty, both of which were shown to be spurious, and a rally call for the right and when the right come to the party you just know there will be trouble as we see with a rapid rise of racist thuggery out on the streets.
Your not seeing the distinction between what I said about why the EU as a trade block is unifying and what you said about separate nations competing as being divisive. Huh tickle me purple what a surprise.
Reasons why brexit will be detrimental to the UK economy and therefore the UK people. I will let you google those, you will get more from doing the work yourself than reading what this 'condescending douche' could possibly say. By that I mean you will never search if there's a chance for you to be wrong on a subject you only have a peripheral understanding of. Hey but you go prove me wrong why don't ya..
I don't think any of my points you will find convincing, I get the idea you are a set in stone republican or worse and so any other idea, argument, facts on a matter is superfluous to your own. You band about the word Marxist as though its an insult and as if capitalism has no need of conscience. I am neither a Marxist nor a capitalist nor a socialist I am a realist. If I thought there was any possibility of an open and factual exchange I would not be so flippant but alas I have no such consideration.

A little light reading to get you up to speed.

http://news.cbi.org.uk...
WAM
Posts: 139
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7/12/2016 2:24:00 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/9/2016 3:53:19 AM, bballcrook21 wrote:

Already was a shock because of investors having knee jerk reactions to the Brexit vote, but it already bounced back, being the value of the Pound Sterling and the British stock market. Actually, it's now higher than it was before.

What?? The pound is (to USD) not higher than it was before and the FTSE 100 looks like it's about to take a big dump.