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Does welfare cause dependency?

Spawktalk
Posts: 10
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3/31/2015 2:14:35 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
As this below video summarizes, a recent study that took advantage of a natural experiment in Norway provides new evidence for the view that welfare policies cause a culture of dependency:

https://www.youtube.com...
Student4Life1975
Posts: 57
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4/24/2015 9:57:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/31/2015 2:14:35 AM, Spawktalk wrote:
As this below video summarizes, a recent study that took advantage of a natural experiment in Norway provides new evidence for the view that welfare policies cause a culture of dependency:

https://www.youtube.com...

The problem with the framework of your question is that it applies to everyone on Welfare, which cannot be anwsered adequately without exceptions. Like so many other topics in society, there are people within the Welfare system that take blatant advantage of it, and others that work hard to get out of it. The question this leads to is "Do we abolish Welfare because of the peercentage of people who are abusing it, and as a reault penalise those who are using it as intended? Or do we work within the system and come up with ways to identify those who are abusing it and kindly remove them from it?

However, your question can be answered in a more general sense in that any human being who doesnt have to work for their income has less incentive to work for it, so it must be tempting for many of them regardless of their work ethic.
there is no progress without compromise"
txreinsider
Posts: 6
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4/29/2015 4:37:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/31/2015 2:14:35 AM, Spawktalk wrote:
As this below video summarizes, a recent study that took advantage of a natural experiment in Norway provides new evidence for the view that welfare policies cause a culture of dependency:

https://www.youtube.com...

Welfare definitely causes dependency....it's modern-day slavery.
Lam
Welfare-Worker
Posts: 1,164
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4/30/2015 6:50:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/31/2015 2:14:35 AM, Spawktalk wrote:
As this below video summarizes, a recent study that took advantage of a natural experiment in Norway provides new evidence for the view that welfare policies cause a culture of dependency:

https://www.youtube.com...

In the U.S. about 80% of all people on welfare, stay on welfare.
At any moment in time, about 20% are on a short time, 80% a long time.
If you look at a five or ten year period, then that 20% outnumber the chronic. So someone can say, 'Most of the people on welfare are on a short time.'

So the bottom line is, most of the money spent on welfare programs, go to a select group of people who are career welfare.

Most of them could be self sustaining.
If no one paid their bills, they would be forced to go to work.
So, this dependency - hard to argue against it - could be reversed. Some dependencies are eternal, or at least a very long time.

Most programs in most states have no work requirements.
Parents are able to live off welfare and the income of their children, which is welfare or child support. No income of their own - not a penny.
There is almost no requirement for single parents to file for child support.
Cradle to grave, literally, is a very real condition for many.

See also
http://www.debate.org...
LETeller
Posts: 47
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5/2/2015 12:12:36 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Welfare doesn't cause dependency.

Life causes dependency.

Nobody is an island, all are dependent on others.

Those who have jobs are dependent on employers.

Those who have businesses are dependent on customers.

Those who need food are dependent on farmers.

Do farmers cause dependency? Does entrepreneurship cause dependency? Does employment cause dependency? No, and neither does welfare. Dependency begins the day you are born, and will continue until the day you die.
themightyindividual
Posts: 98
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5/2/2015 8:53:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
If you give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. If you teach a man to fish, he'll eat for a lifetime.

If you give a man a welfare check, he'll have money for a day. If you find a man a job, he'll have money for a lifetime.
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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5/5/2015 10:36:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/31/2015 2:14:35 AM, Spawktalk wrote:
As this below video summarizes, a recent study that took advantage of a natural experiment in Norway provides new evidence for the view that welfare policies cause a culture of dependency:

https://www.youtube.com...

It depends. The study can be read here, btw (http://econweb.ucsd.edu...).

I would argue that it can. When the "war on poverty" began, a decline in poverty throughout the entire early part of the century came to a halt. It actually increased in the years afterward. But the general trend since then has been flat.

Of course, if you read liberal blogs they show studies saying the average rate of poverty declines. However, if you have a trend like this: \_ , the _ will average less than the \ , even though it is clear that the \ is a superior trend to the _. I don't know if that makes sense, but it is a bad way of measuring poverty trends. So, technically since it (may) have caused a flat trend from a declining one, it increases poverty.

I am not opposed to some type of welfare system. If we don't have one your country will pretty much collapse. The poor won't put up with it. And there is no money for them to even start out on. But I think cutting back on when we use it would be beneficial to the poor and those who pay for them.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
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Lee001
Posts: 3,168
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5/6/2015 11:07:41 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/31/2015 2:14:35 AM, Spawktalk wrote:
As this below video summarizes, a recent study that took advantage of a natural experiment in Norway provides new evidence for the view that welfare policies cause a culture of dependency:

https://www.youtube.com...

These people are *able to get a job* they just choose not to work. It's annoying. I mean to me, its acceptable for the handicap and those with mental problems to receive money. But it gets taken advantage of too much.
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Otokage
Posts: 2,347
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5/7/2015 3:17:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/2/2015 12:12:36 AM, LETeller wrote:
Welfare doesn't cause dependency.

Life causes dependency.

Nobody is an island, all are dependent on others.

Those who have jobs are dependent on employers.

Those who have businesses are dependent on customers.

Those who need food are dependent on farmers.

Do farmers cause dependency? Does entrepreneurship cause dependency? Does employment cause dependency? No, and neither does welfare. Dependency begins the day you are born, and will continue until the day you die.

^This. And I would like to add that there's no problem on being dependent, and even if there was, you wouldn't be able to help it so...
Josh_debate
Posts: 170
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5/7/2015 5:53:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/7/2015 3:17:27 PM, Otokage wrote:
At 5/2/2015 12:12:36 AM, LETeller wrote:
Welfare doesn't cause dependency.

Life causes dependency.

Nobody is an island, all are dependent on others.

Those who have jobs are dependent on employers.

Those who have businesses are dependent on customers.

Those who need food are dependent on farmers.

Do farmers cause dependency? Does entrepreneurship cause dependency? Does employment cause dependency? No, and neither does welfare. Dependency begins the day you are born, and will continue until the day you die.

^This. And I would like to add that there's no problem on being dependent, and even if there was, you wouldn't be able to help it so...

Being too dependent on the federal government is bad, It allows the government to have too much power over people.
Welfare-Worker
Posts: 1,164
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5/7/2015 6:28:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Social services deals with two types of poor people - who are dependent.
One is the poor by circumstances, the other is the poor by choice.
The poor by choice impoverish themselves. There are many ways to do this. It is very common.

All get benefits equally, as if it were not their choice.
Otokage
Posts: 2,347
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5/8/2015 5:21:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/7/2015 6:28:52 PM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
Social services deals with two types of poor people - who are dependent.
One is the poor by circumstances, the other is the poor by choice.
The poor by choice impoverish themselves. There are many ways to do this. It is very common.

All get benefits equally, as if it were not their choice.

No one chooses specificly to be poor, that's strikingly absurd. Everyone in this world wants to be rich, or at least, sufficiently solvent. If you really wanted to be poor, you wouldn't be accepting state's money to begin with. Another thing is being poor due to consequences of choices that were not aimed at making you poor, and often, were aimed at making you rich: investing, betting, etc.

So, because you commited a bad decision in your life, you suddenly deserve to starve to death? Hello fascism!
Welfare-Worker
Posts: 1,164
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5/8/2015 6:13:08 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/8/2015 5:21:21 AM, Otokage wrote:
At 5/7/2015 6:28:52 PM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
Social services deals with two types of poor people - who are dependent.
One is the poor by circumstances, the other is the poor by choice.
The poor by choice impoverish themselves. There are many ways to do this. It is very common.

All get benefits equally, as if it were not their choice.

No one chooses specificly to be poor, that's strikingly absurd. Everyone in this world wants to be rich, or at least, sufficiently solvent. If you really wanted to be poor, you wouldn't be accepting state's money to begin with. Another thing is being poor due to consequences of choices that were not aimed at making you poor, and often, were aimed at making you rich: investing, betting, etc.

So, because you commited a bad decision in your life, you suddenly deserve to starve to death? Hello fascism!

Ah, to be young and naive again.
You need a wake up call.
There is a difference between wanting to be rich, and being willing to spend one breathe to make it happen.
And for the record, most of them accept no 'money'. They accept vouchers, goods, services, but no actual money.

Here are some reasons why people quit working, and asked for more welfare benefits:
I had to wait 3 weeks for my first pay.
I had to have time to watch my son's junior high football practice.
They wanted me to work on Christmas eve.
My husband quit his job and I wasn't going to work if he wasn't.
My supervisor made work less than an enjoyable experience.
They wanted me to work 35 hours a week, I told them no more than 30.
The wanted me to work overtime.
I had to be at work at 8:00, that's too early.

Women with 3 children and no income will not file for child support, against any of the fathers. Live off welfare.
A household with two healthy adult parents, and a 20 year old healthy child, none of them works. The 20 year old says he is looking for work, but he is not willing to take some minimum wage job.

Someone living off welfare their whole life gets $50,000 in an insurance settlement, and spends it all within 90 days by taking the whole family on a big vacation to Disneyworld, so they can stay on welfare.

A welfare recipient is given a job at the local welfare office, with full benefits, and a one year probationary period. They repeatedly miss work without calling in, are late for work, do not do their assigned duties, so after one year they are back on welfare.

Thirty year olds who do not claim to be disabled, have never worked a pay period in their life, always on welfare.

A husband and wife have a mildly disabled child - low IQ - so they get disability payments for the child, but the parents are healthy. Neither parent works, they live off the welfare disability for the child, and other welfare.

A single mother could get cash assistance for herself and her child, but she would have to file for child support, so she refuses the cash assistance, and lives off the other welfare programs.

People take a part time job so they can file for an EITC welfare payment at the end of the year, but figure out how long they have to work to get the maximum benefits, then quit their job until next year.

People with Master degrees (6 years of college) that was paid for with grants - free money - only work part time jobs, and get more in food stamps each year than they earn. I had two like that on my caseload.

People get grant money to go to trade school - with enough left over to pay the rent - then never work in that field, go back on welfare when school is finished.

Women with school age children, none under the age of 10, live off child support for the children, never work, just get various welfare benefits.

Adult children, who came from welfare, move out of their family's home with no income and start applying for all the welfare they can.

~ ~
40% of all food stamp cases have zero net income, more deductions than income.
Half of all parents of SSI disabled children, get most of their income from the child.

That is the tip of the iceberg.

I had one grandfather tell me welfare was for people who did not want to work, his 22 year old granddaughter did not want to work so we should be giving her more welfare. He made a special trip into the office to make sure she got treated right.

People who have been 'self-employed' for several years, and report earnings of about $150 per month, get the maximum food stamps, and complain they are not getting enough, they need more.

A woman with 7 children, no husband (ever) and gets $1000 a month in food stamps, reports she is pregnant. Did I mention almost all of my welfare caseload was white, like her. She refuses cash assistance, gets child support from some of the fathers, doesn't want to file against the others.

Most of the people in society are not like this.
Most of the people on welfare are just like this. Race is not a factor.
Cradle to grave, multigenerational is extremely common.

Some of them do their best, put out all effort to be self sufficient, but are still poor due to circumstances.
Welfare-Worker
Posts: 1,164
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5/8/2015 6:46:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Here is something else that needs to be pointed out.

As a case manager I had access to case histories for welfare people. Detailed accounts for the last 20 years, and general details back to the 60s and 70s.

You often hear defenders of the welfare system point out how many of those on welfare are aged and disabled.
Someone turns age 65, and is aged, on welfare, and they are suddenly 'deserving' of welfare, because Medicaid kept them alive on the earth for 65 years.
Never mind they had 6 children, raised them on welfare. Now those children are on welfare, raising their own children. Never mind they never paid rent in their whole life (not most of them, but some of them). Never paid a doctor bill in their whole life, for themselves or their children. Never paid a penny in IRS taxes in their life. Still, just because they lived to be 65 they are 'deserving'.

Or someone who gets SSI welfare disability at age 50 is suddenly 'deserving'. Never mind they never worked a day in their life, but brought 3 children into this world, so someone else could pay the bills for them. Never mind it took 10 years to be able to get the disability, changing the reason for the disability two times before they 'got it right'.

Someone who is a typical 'poor by choice', facing a lifetime on welfare, turns 65 or is given welfare disability and suddenly they are in a new class of people - in with the ones who 'deserve'. In with the ones who worked 50 years before they retired, who never took a dime of welfare money. In with the ones who paid IRS taxes all those years, for the welfare people.

And those who are 'disabled', or not able to work. They include pregnant women, with their third or fourth welfare baby, and no baby daddy. We are to feel sorry for them. Welfare women get 'not able to work' slips from their doctors in the second month of pregnancy. Women who work go into their ninth month, still working.
Otokage
Posts: 2,347
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5/8/2015 2:30:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/8/2015 6:13:08 AM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 5/8/2015 5:21:21 AM, Otokage wrote:
At 5/7/2015 6:28:52 PM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
Social services deals with two types of poor people - who are dependent.
One is the poor by circumstances, the other is the poor by choice.
The poor by choice impoverish themselves. There are many ways to do this. It is very common.

All get benefits equally, as if it were not their choice.

No one chooses specificly to be poor, that's strikingly absurd. Everyone in this world wants to be rich, or at least, sufficiently solvent. If you really wanted to be poor, you wouldn't be accepting state's money to begin with. Another thing is being poor due to consequences of choices that were not aimed at making you poor, and often, were aimed at making you rich: investing, betting, etc.

So, because you commited a bad decision in your life, you suddenly deserve to starve to death? Hello fascism!

Ah, to be young and naive again.
You need a wake up call.

Ahhh... The capitalist proletarian, so cute :'-)

There is a difference between wanting to be rich, and being willing to spend one breathe to make it happen.
And for the record, most of them accept no 'money'. They accept vouchers, goods, services, but no actual money.

Which services are given to them that are not given to you or everyone? They contributed as well with taxes when they were not poor, precisely to be covered if something goes wrong in the future. Also their parents contributed as well, and their siblings.

Here are some reasons why people quit working, and asked for more welfare benefits:

Ok here are some more:

I had to wait 3 weeks for my first pay.

They wanted me to work for free the first month.

I had to have time to watch my son's junior high football practice.

They wanted me to stay more than 8 hours/day (or whatever is the maximum legal time on your country) against my will.

They wanted me to work on Christmas eve.

They are not willing to give me free days on christmas, although free days are contemplated in my contract.

My husband quit his job and I wasn't going to work if he wasn't.

They fired me because I took free days for the maternity permission.

My supervisor made work less than an enjoyable experience.

My supervisor harasses me.

They wanted me to work 35 hours a week, I told them no more than 30.

They violated the current legislation making me work 10 hours a day.

The wanted me to work overtime.

They fired me because I refused to suffer exploitation.

I had to be at work at 8:00, that's too early.

They fired me because I demanded the statutory minimum salary.

And the most common: They fired me and they didn't even tell me why, and when I said I would legally demand a reason, they threatened me with "sure, do it, and also forget about working on this sector anymore".

Women with 3 children and no income will not file for child support, against any of the fathers. Live off welfare.

Didn't understand the comment.

A household with two healthy adult parents, and a 20 year old healthy child, none of them works. The 20 year old says he is looking for work, but he is not willing to take some minimum wage job.

Well, if none of them works, then I presume none of them feel the need to work. Good for them. What's the point? Are you suggesting they live at expenses of the state? Oh, my dear capitalist proletarian, if only countries were SO generous :(

And btw, didnt you say they do not accept money? What do they eat then? Public Healthcare aspirins? Public school tables?

Someone living off welfare their whole life gets $50,000 in an insurance settlement, and spends it all within 90 days by taking the whole family on a big vacation to Disneyworld, so they can stay on welfare.

lol. Return to elementary school so you can learn proper maths. If that were true, New York beggers would live in mansions and drive Ferrari.

A welfare recipient is given a job at the local welfare office,

If only welfare offices gave jobs... I've been 2 whole years on the list, never called me lol

with full benefits, and a one year probationary period. They repeatedly miss work without calling in, are late for work, do not do their assigned duties, so after one year they are back on welfare.

Thirty year olds who do not claim to be disabled, have never worked a pay period in their life, always on welfare.

Welfare money is not something they give you for free. They give it to you either because you worked, or because you are POOR. As long as your family has money, they don't give you welfare money. Even if you have properties they don't give you money either. I was refused a scolarship for having a house! I mean, wtf? They expected me to sell my house to pay for the university?

A husband and wife have a mildly disabled child - low IQ - so they get disability payments for the child, but the parents are healthy. Neither parent works, they live off the welfare disability for the child, and other welfare.

Sure, you know what? ANYONE that is given 200$ for a disabled child, suddenly stops working, and lives pretty good. They eat by photosynthesis, and they do not pay for fuel for the car, they have secret arts to turn water into fuel!

A single mother could get cash assistance for herself and her child, but she would have to file for child support, so she refuses the cash assistance, and lives off the other welfare programs.

People take a part time job so they can file for an EITC welfare payment at the end of the year, but figure out how long they have to work to get the maximum benefits, then quit their job until next year.

People with Master degrees (6 years of college) that was paid for with grants - free money - only work part time jobs, and get more in food stamps each year than they earn. I had two like that on my caseload.

People get grant money to go to trade school - with enough left over to pay the rent - then never work in that field, go back on welfare when school is finished.

Women with school age children, none under the age of 10, live off child support for the children, never work, just get various welfare benefits.

Adult children, who came from welfare, move out of their family's home with no income and start applying for all the welfare they can.

~ ~
40% of all food stamp cases have zero net income, more deductions than income.
Half of all parents of SSI disabled children, get most of their income from the child.

That is the tip of the iceberg.

I had one grandfather tell me welfare was for people who did not want to work, his 22 year old granddaughter did not want to work so we should be giving her more welfare. He made a special trip into the office to make sure she got treated right.

People who have been 'self-employed' for several years, and report earnings of about $150 per month, get the maximum food stamps, and complain they are not getting enough, they need more.

A woman with 7 children, no husband (ever) and gets $1000 a month in food stamps, reports she is pregnant. Did I mention almost all of my welfare caseload was white, like her. She refuses cash assistance, gets child support from some of the fathers, doesn't want to file against the others.

Most of the people in society are not like this.
Most of the people on welfare are just like this. Race is not a factor.
Cradle to grave, multigenerational is extremely common.

Some of them do their best, put out all effort to be self sufficient, but are still poor due to circumstances.


this thread is just a big big facepalm. It was at least funny to read.
brunoalley
Posts: 15
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5/14/2015 4:04:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I'm a fairly ardent progressive who believes that welfare can indeed cause dependency.

However, the choice is not simply between welfare-as-such and total withdrawal of assistance.

It seems to me like assistance could be administered within more incentivizing structures than we currently have. And while certain opponents of welfare are advocating a thinly disguised social Darwinism, I think progressives hurt their own credibility and social projects by not taking into account incentivization structures. How we do this could be a part of a great discussion here. This does not just have to be "workfare" initiatives, but even how assistance is granted (how are benefits tapered, how about universal basic income, and so on).
Sooner
Posts: 1,012
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7/16/2015 5:17:48 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I have a job for starters.
If they can milk it, more power to them. What?
You read it right. A lot of people in non grueling jobs or from certain situations don't get it on a personal level. You cannot understand what you haven't faced personally. It's true, and you know this.
-First off, let me say, if you work a job and take care of your business, I applaud you. You "manned up", and your presence on Earth demands respect. I'll give you a "dat a boy!" If no one else ever does.
-Welfare system? Milk it? Yes, milk it.
Why? Because the system is an epic fail. The system is like a big, sweaty guy that makes lude comments every time you walk by, then rapes you as you're going to your car one night.
There are exceptions to everything, but the reality is that 80%+ of the people I know on Welfare got raped (pardon the term) by the system, found it alone in a dark alley, hit it with an aluminum bat across the face, tied it up with rope, took its wallet, and felt no remorse for taking its money because it seemed a small price to pay after the enitial rape and all.
Basic work for decent pay sucks, but it is not "unbearable". People who resent Welfare recipients tend to fit into this category. They work a job that isn't neccessarily wonderful, but it's not "slave labor like", and their wages pay the bills reasonably or better.
-There is another group that cannot reach the level above or would have to wage a full scale war against their situation with no guarantee of success, no skilled training, and lacking of a reasonable situation to start from to dig out. Sometimes someone gets a criminal record young, and the system leaves them for dead even if they modify their behavior. If you get out of jail one day, have no car, no home, no food, etc. Where do you turn? Steal to survive? Bum? (Don't bring up government supported "help programs". If you had to go through them, you'd realize why most people don't).
There are millions of people who are incapable of obtaining or even doing a job that pays decent and has reasonable hours.
So let's say they go to Pizza Hut to get a job. They are told to fill out an online application. (After filling out 100's of online apps, I've decided that no one actually reads most of them but on occassion someone gets a call.)
They spend 2 days filling out online apps. No calls. They go talk to the managers who act confused and somehow it's putoff on corporate's responsibility who has no face.
Online apps yield few job results for most unless you are pretty fresh out of school I find out.
So I'll tell you my story now. I started with nothing. My parents were of poverty, and couldn't help me much. Any seemingly decent job there was where I was from didn't hire me. I got desperate out of survival, so I went to a temp agency. They sent me to a company to interview. In ten minutes, I had a job. I was desperate, they were offering the job, so I took it. This was the kind of place that I could get a job. This was the extent of my options. Now, the cold, hard truth. When you have little experience, no skills, no training, and you get the job on the spot, what's ahead?(Pause for a minute. What do you think you get?)
JOB: Energy drink factory
PAY: $7.50 per hour
HOURS: 12 hour work days
WORK WEEK: 7 days a week
TOTAL HOURS PER WEEK: 84
ENVIRONMENT: 120 degrees in the building.
Lots of heavy lifting quickly while trying to keep up with fast moving assembly line. Wore hair net, ear plugs, rubber gloves.
*Witnessed 3 people pass out in my first month from heat exhaustion and dehydration.
*Witnessed 6 people slip and fall on the oily floors. 2 were hurt bad enough that ambulances were called. (People always bring up OSHA, but these places get away with whatever they want.)
-Are 12 hour days, 7 day work weeks in hot temperatures legal? Yes. The system is a puppet. No one cares about your "rights" when you fit into this particular job demographic.

-So I hate the place obviously right?
When do I have time to seek other work? Never.
-So through a friend I got a job at a famous paint store. It got me out of the other job, so I took it. $8.25 an hour. 30-35 hours a week. The paychecks were tiny, but it was better than before. I could only afford a $250 a month house, got $60 a month in food stamps, ate a lot of Ramen noodles and beans. Couldn't afford cable, so no tv. Bunny ears got me one channel, and it froze up in and out digitally, so I forsook TV. Because of the cycle of my bills, I periodically would have wster or electric shut off. It was grest. I lived 3 weeks one time without electric(try it some time. It's great)until I could afford to get it turned back on. Then my water was shut off 9 days later. Went about 2 weeks with no water. About lost my truck. Forsook truck insurance for about 2 months because I didn't have the money. Got a ticket for no insurance, $175. That helped. Couldn't fully pay the ticket, so had a warrant for failure to pay. Drove into police department to make payment cover warrant. Got nailed by same cop for no insurance 2 weeks later. Another ticket. Became seriously and deeply depressed to thoughts of suicide. Couldn't pay ticket. Went to jail. Lost my job. Lost my apartment. Got out of jail. Had no home, job, food. Slept behind a retail store in garbage can. Got caught one day. Found out homelesness is illegal. Went back to jail. Ot out with nothing. Got a little help, got a little something going on, was forced into another 84 hour a week sweatshop factory job. My body always hurt bad but coukdn't afford doctor or pills. Finally, had a kid, got all kinds of financial assistance, stayed home and sorry if you disagree, but I said,"fu*k em." Lived off Welfare for 6 years. So live off of welfare and be at home or 84 hours in a sweat shop? What would you have done? I'm having another kid. Sad? Yes. Fair? No. But that's life for the uneducated, poor person too much of the time. Having kids takes you from life of hell on earth to at least prozak and no job keep me from taking too many pills on purpose. I'm getting Welfare, yes. But am I winning? Nope. I simply wish I'd neer been born. There is no victory.
Ignoring problems doesn't make them go away.
Sooner
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7/16/2015 5:24:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Well that was my story 6 years ago. Now I have a decent job and decent wages, and I am grateful. But I understand most people on welfare. If they really do truely try, their life gets harder. They can make enough to survive without working or they can make less and do a really, really crappy, grueling 84 hour a week job for $7.50 an hour. What should they d?
Ignoring problems doesn't make them go away.
j50wells
Posts: 345
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7/18/2015 5:18:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I wouldn't look at any productions about this subject coming from a socialist nation. They will only tell you fables that will tickle your itching ears.
To figure out whether welfare cause dependency, all one must do is use common sense. I learned this on my own.
I fell into the trap of unemployment insurance about ten years ago. I was receiving full benefits. I received these benefits for two years, when all along I could have gotten a job, for there were plenty of jobs to be had. But it was cold and snowy outside, and sitting in my nice, warm apartment made a whole lot more sense than working for money, when I could just keep on signing up for unemployment. In the end my common sense kicked in, for I knew that I could never build a dream home, or buy an expensive car on unemployment.
However, many people don't care about houses and cars. They enjoy lazing around, partying, and watching TV all day. And when they are getting free money from the government, you better believe they aren't going to get a job.
I used to date a girl in the hood. She lived on welfare. To this day I still cannot understand why. She had a car. She lived in project housing. She got food stamps. Her kids were all over age 6 so they went to school all day. And yet all she did was smoke pot all day and watch TV. She didn't want to work, and for good reason. Everything she got was free. She was in heaven.
So I'd throw all of these stupid documentaries and news reports out the window on this. Use your common sense and you'll find out that welfare does indeed lead to dependence.
ax123man
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7/18/2015 6:47:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
More to be found in Mises' Human Action, but summarized below by Robert Murphy:

"Historically, economists have referred to the disutility of labor to underscore the fact that individuals directly enjoy leisure, and will only devote some of their scarce time to labor if it allows the achievement of more important ends than the leisure being sacrificed"

no study necessary to figure this out.
j50wells
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7/21/2015 4:16:25 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 6:47:06 PM, ax123man wrote:
More to be found in Mises' Human Action, but summarized below by Robert Murphy:

"Historically, economists have referred to the disutility of labor to underscore the fact that individuals directly enjoy leisure, and will only devote some of their scarce time to labor if it allows the achievement of more important ends than the leisure being sacrificed"

no study necessary to figure this out.

Well said. I recently finished a book called, "The Failure's of Socialism". What's really disturbing about socialist philosophy is the fact that people blindly follow it, even when the evidence against it is plain. Even more frustrating is the fact that socialists will attack the prophet. But the prophets of doom have always been attacked or ostracized, and doom is always where socialism will lead a nation.
Sooner
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7/23/2015 5:14:53 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
It depends on how you look at it. The only few places around here where I'm at that are hiring are minimum wage level jobs, and they are very few. If we cut off Welfare, where exactly will these people be going to work?
Ignoring problems doesn't make them go away.
ax123man
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7/23/2015 6:18:01 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/23/2015 5:14:53 AM, Sooner wrote:
It depends on how you look at it. The only few places around here where I'm at that are hiring are minimum wage level jobs, and they are very few. If we cut off Welfare, where exactly will these people be going to work?

short history of the world:

One upon a time, man could not even produce, in aggregate, as much as he consumed. Some survived, some starved. We were animals, like a fish, whose only goal in a day is to balance use of energy with hunting in order to eat enough calories to survive. But man's intelligence (and isn't this ironic, since all I ever hear is how "dumb" people are) allowed him to move from hunter-gatherer to farmer, with the eventual use of animals and crude machines to create just enough to survive. Man settled into towns and cities and the disutility of labor came into play, which simply means that we'd choose leisure over labor. Thus was born "kings" who discovered that they could make stuff up like the "divine right of kings" and could thus spend their days without laboring. Eventually man decided that men could not get power directly from god, so kings became either dictators or presidents.

Eventually man built enough machines to become productive enough that they could actually produce more than they consumed, thus was born the industrial revolution. Early on, government played very little role in business. Man did not ask the question "what about the poor or elderly" much. It was taken as a given that charities and families cared for them. Doctors for example, took it as part of their normal role in a community to care for the sick who could not pay. The elderly lived with family until their death.

But time goes on and the elite and powerful want more power:

"poor man wanna be rich, rich man wanna be king, and a king ain't satisfied until he rules everything"
Bruce Springsteen

Over time, with the separate of church and state, the divine right of kings concept was thoroughly demolished, the elite needed to ensure the government stayed in control. So they took over education, money and banking, mortgage lending, business regulation, medical care, roads, police, water, etc. Eventually man became to believe that these things could not exist without government, despite the fact that all these things predates government. And thus was asked the question:

"If we cut off Welfare, where exactly will these people be going to work?"

The end
Sooner
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7/23/2015 7:05:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago

But time goes on and the elite and powerful want more power:

"poor man wanna be rich, rich man wanna be king, and a king ain't satisfied until he rules everything"
Bruce Springsteen

Over time, with the separate of church and state, the divine right of kings concept was thoroughly demolished, the elite needed to ensure the government stayed in control. So they took over education, money and banking, mortgage lending, business regulation, medical care, roads, police, water, etc. Eventually man became to believe that these things could not exist without government, despite the fact that all these things predates government. And thus was asked the question:

"If we cut off Welfare, where exactly will these people be going to work?"

The end

ME:
Trust me. I understand your plite. What gets it nice and messy for my conscience is I have a lot now, but I understand being in poverty. I was raised in poverty. With no free, open land for people to homestead or live off of the land, Evolutionary rules get strange. "Survival of the Fittest". Not anymore. Now it's survival of those born from the right "hole" or those who are taught by mom to get Welfare for life. For those who are honest and struggle, I hesitate. They can't get a fair shake at Evolution's true and unbiased dividing abilities. Evolution has been darkly mutated, at least temporarily, to weed the "non right" mother's babies to the bottom. They fight 20 times harder to keep up
And have more ability yet do not rise like evolution "intended".
Ignoring problems doesn't make them go away.
Sooner
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7/23/2015 7:15:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
And if the masses want to try a start over from scratch, everyone for themselves approach, I'm game. We destroy all modern technology, or anything that uses electricity, and tear down all the builfings. All land is free game. I was raised by hillbillies, so the idea doesn't intimidate me. I know how to make a trap with sticks that works. I know how to find needed things in nature to garden effectively. I was taught how to make a bow and arrow and the arrows, and use stones to make arrowheads. I was raised in Bell, Oklahoma. Sally Bull area to be specific. Basically old school Cherokee ways when I was a kid. It took a long time for them to accept indoor plumbing. We can try it. I'll survive. If I get the chance, I'm going eat a politician first.
Ignoring problems doesn't make them go away.
ax123man
Posts: 317
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7/23/2015 7:27:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/23/2015 7:05:23 AM, Sooner wrote:

But time goes on and the elite and powerful want more power:

"poor man wanna be rich, rich man wanna be king, and a king ain't satisfied until he rules everything"
Bruce Springsteen

Over time, with the separate of church and state, the divine right of kings concept was thoroughly demolished, the elite needed to ensure the government stayed in control. So they took over education, money and banking, mortgage lending, business regulation, medical care, roads, police, water, etc. Eventually man became to believe that these things could not exist without government, despite the fact that all these things predates government. And thus was asked the question:

"If we cut off Welfare, where exactly will these people be going to work?"

The end

ME:
Trust me. I understand your plite. What gets it nice and messy for my conscience is I have a lot now, but I understand being in poverty. I was raised in poverty. With no free, open land for people to homestead or live off of the land, Evolutionary rules get strange. "Survival of the Fittest". Not anymore. Now it's survival of those born from the right "hole" or those who are taught by mom to get Welfare for life. For those who are honest and struggle, I hesitate. They can't get a fair shake at Evolution's true and unbiased dividing abilities. Evolution has been darkly mutated, at least temporarily, to weed the "non right" mother's babies to the bottom. They fight 20 times harder to keep up
And have more ability yet do not rise like evolution "intended".

I don't really have a plite (sp). I accept the time I was born in, and my life has, from what I can tell, mirrored yours. Grew up poor, relatively successful now. The mistake people are making is that they have been tricked into believing government is the answer. Your statement that where/how you were born being the main driver of success (I assume that was your point) is simply false, proven out by myself, you, the success of hard-working immigrants and many others over and over and over again. This idea, it's pure government and leftist propaganda. I understand there are people in the U.S. working hard and living small. But 1000 years ago, they'd be lucky to be alive at 30. Have some perspective on history.

You are successful but also concerned about the down-trodden. Me too, but frankly, to me, it feels very dirty to just pawn it off on a democratic vote. In fact, based on the research and study I've done (and it's A LOT - I'm tend obsessed with it), I'm 100% convinced that government hurts the people they claim to help. I believe in the idea of subsidiarity - get involved in your local community. If you really need some kind of national reach, there are thousands (probably) of non-government charities and other things you could do.

I'm in IT but was originally considering teaching. I'm considering some day teaching IT either free of charge or maybe very cheaply to supplement retirement, just as an example.
Sooner
Posts: 1,012
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7/23/2015 8:03:16 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I don't really have a plite (sp). I accept the time I was born in, and my life has, from what I can tell, mirrored yours. Grew up poor, relatively successful now. The mistake people are making is that they have been tricked into believing government is the answer. Your statement that where/how you were born being the main driver of success (I assume that was your point) is simply false, proven out by myself, you, the success of hard-working immigrants and many others over and over and over again. This idea, it's pure government and leftist propaganda. I understand there are people in the U.S. working hard and living small. But 1000 years ago, they'd be lucky to be alive at 30. Have some perspective on history.

You are successful but also concerned about the down-trodden. Me too, but frankly, to me, it feels very dirty to just pawn it off on a democratic vote. In fact, based on the research and study I've done (and it's A LOT - I'm tend obsessed with it), I'm 100% convinced that government hurts the people they claim to help. I believe in the idea of subsidiarity - get involved in your local community. If you really need some kind of national reach, there are thousands (probably) of non-government charities and other things you could do.

I'm in IT but was originally considering teaching. I'm considering some day teaching IT either free of charge or maybe very cheaply to supplement retirement, just as an example.

- Understood.
Ignoring problems doesn't make them go away.