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2cents4change
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1/12/2016 10:00:29 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
This thread is for ideas that individuals have to change the education system. Personal experiences and referenced research, statistics are welcomed.
2cents4change
j50wells
Posts: 345
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1/14/2016 10:16:54 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
It' s defunct system ran by defunct fuddie duds. These people have no understanding of where we are today, as opposed to where we were seventy years ago. Sadly, we are using the same system from seventy years ago.
There are two things that will help the public school system, but they will not solve every problem.
One: The school system needs to go heavy on the math, science, and physics, and less on the English and history. This is very important since our future will involve technologies so unbelievable, and so advanced, that to even use them one must be very smart. The technologies that will be rolled out into the public sphere over the next 50-100 years will change society in profound ways, much like the internet did in the 90's and 2000's. These technologies will rob many people's of their jobs. The jobs of the future will involve physics, science, chemistry, robotics, and mathematics. To be able to get these jobs and do them well, people will need 15-20 years of study in the sciences and mathematics. If we do not reform our public schools, then all of these jobs will be given to the Asians. The Asians already see the future. Their children learn the math and sciences for much of their public school learning so that they are far ahead of us by the time they graduate high school. They are ready to enter college and excel in their studies. In their grad school studies they easily work through the classes and graduate at the top of the classes and take the best jobs.
Even today, we are seeing that degrees that were so lucrative in the past mean nothing today. This is because technology is the sector of the economy that will provide most of the jobs, and most of the higher paying jobs.
Two: The public school system must teach philosophy and psychology heavily. I am appalled at the amount of apple pie eating Americans who still want to settle their differences with their fist-a-cuffs. They also believe that might makes right. You can still see full grown adults verbally and physically abuse nerds, wimps, bald guys, small guys, ....anyone who is different. How despicable. This is happening because of the public school systems lack of integrity, philosophy, and psychology. These idiot kids who aren't taught integrity, dignity, and respect are growing up and going out into the job world and pissing everyone off. Often times these idiots end up homeless because no one wants them around. This isn't happened in Asia, where teachers teach philosophy and punish bullying and dis-respect. In fact, Asians are the least violent people on earth. Maybe we should learn something from them.
Elderman
Posts: 65
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1/25/2016 8:25:30 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/12/2016 10:00:29 PM, 2cents4change wrote:
This thread is for ideas that individuals have to change the education system. Personal experiences and referenced research, statistics are welcomed. : :

Once you understand where all thoughts come from, then you have reached the ultimate education system that man has completely ignored since he woke up in this world.
Peepette
Posts: 1,242
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1/25/2016 9:29:01 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/14/2016 10:16:54 PM, j50wells wrote:
It' s defunct system ran by defunct fuddie duds. These people have no understanding of where we are today, as opposed to where we were seventy years ago. Sadly, we are using the same system from seventy years ago.
There are two things that will help the public school system, but they will not solve every problem.
One: The school system needs to go heavy on the math, science, and physics, and less on the English and history.
,
Unfortunately, due to standardized testing math and language arts are in the forefront. Science and history is barely taught at the grade school level as a result. Language arts development is essential for individuals to articulately express themselves even in the math and sciences arenas. History is also essential. We live in a global economy and students need to learn how this happened, as well as have an understanding of the how and whys of historic events; example, the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, and other wars that have occurred. Without this understanding errors of a geopolitical nature are inevitable. We do need diplomats and linguists, as well as scientist and mathematicians. We need a population that has a grasp on foreign events and policy; knowing how it affects their lives and livelihood.

This is very important since our future will involve technologies so unbelievable, and so advanced, that to even use them one must be very smart. The technologies that will be rolled out into the public sphere over the next 50-100 years will change society in profound ways, much like the internet did in the 90's and 2000's. These technologies will rob many people's of their jobs. The jobs of the future will involve physics, science, chemistry, robotics, and mathematics. To be able to get these jobs and do them well, people will need 15-20 years of study in the sciences and mathematics. If we do not reform our public schools, then all of these jobs will be given to the Asians. The Asians already see the future.

Asian countries possess a homogeneous culture, which is something the US does not have, theirs is not a one size fits all education system. Furthermore, I would not want to put my children through the educational rigors that some Asian countries place upon their kids. School all day, supplemental school afterwards, along with an extensive exam process to get into secondary education systems. Kids live for school, are under extreme stress and there is shame attached to not being admitted to the most prestigious high schools; your lot in life is determined by this.

Their children learn the math and sciences for much of their public school learning so that they are far ahead of us by the time they graduate high school. They are ready to enter college and excel in their studies. In their grad school studies they easily work through the classes and graduate at the top of the classes and take the best jobs.
Even today, we are seeing that degrees that were so lucrative in the past mean nothing today. This is because technology is the sector of the economy that will provide most of the jobs, and most of the higher paying jobs.

The skill needs of an economy ebb and flow. The education system can not totally modify itself every few years to meet the demand, by the time it does, the demand changes. It can only present a well round individuals that are capable of meeting the changes when they occur.

Two: The public school system must teach philosophy and psychology heavily. I am appalled at the amount of apple pie eating Americans who still want to settle their differences with their fist-a-cuffs. They also believe that might makes right. You can still see full grown adults verbally and physically abuse nerds, wimps, bald guys, small guys, ....anyone who is different. How despicable. This is happening because of the public school systems lack of integrity, philosophy, and psychology. These idiot kids who aren't taught integrity, dignity, and respect are growing up and going out into the job world and pissing everyone off. Often times these idiots end up homeless because no one wants them around.

I have to agree with you to some degree. But, considering religious and ethnic differences, philosophy and psychology would be as much of a hard pill to swallow as practical sex education, and it not appropriate at the grade school or middle school level; concepts are too abstract. Philosophy and psychology is currently offered at the high school level as an elective. As far as respect or disrespect is concern, this needs to start at home. We have a current culture of passing blame unto others when problems occur.

This isn't happened in Asia, where teachers teach philosophy and punish bullying and dis-respect. In fact, Asians are the least violent people on earth. Maybe we should learn something from them.
j50wells
Posts: 345
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1/25/2016 11:30:16 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/25/2016 9:29:01 PM, Peepette wrote:
At 1/14/2016 10:16:54 PM, j50wells wrote:
It' s defunct system ran by defunct fuddie duds. These people have no understanding of where we are today, as opposed to where we were seventy years ago. Sadly, we are using the same system from seventy years ago.
There are two things that will help the public school system, but they will not solve every problem.
One: The school system needs to go heavy on the math, science, and physics, and less on the English and history.
,
Unfortunately, due to standardized testing math and language arts are in the forefront. Science and history is barely taught at the grade school level as a result. Language arts development is essential for individuals to articulately express themselves even in the math and sciences arenas.

Yes, and we do this. Writing and speech are very important, unfortunately, they tend to take a back seat from things like PE, Shop, and Creative Foods classes.
History is also essential.
We do teach history, but we don't need 13 years of it.
We live in a global economy and students need to learn how this happened, as well as have an understanding of the how and whys of historic events; example, the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, and other wars that have occurred.
Is there any one public educated student that can tell you about the Israel Palestine conflict? But truthfully, you yourself have not learned common sense. The Israel conflict is so far down on the level of importance for Americans. This conflict is important to you because your mind has been softened up by leftist propaganda. What is important for us is to learn how we became one of the kindest, friendliest, most powerful nations in world history.
Without this understanding errors of a geopolitical nature are inevitable.

Untrue, since plugging numbers and history into kids minds never sticks. It never sticks because it has no meaning. It's not like you go from one level of history to the next, and build premise upon premise like you do in mathematics and physics. I got A's and B's in all of my history classes, yet I cannot tell you 5% of what I learned. Learning years of history will help nothing if another nation is learning physics and mathematics and then conquers you. Trust me, these nations will care nothing about the Israel/ Palaestinian conflict. They will take your lands, enslave your kids, and sleep with your women. Who told you this lie that people still will not do this? Why do you think that just because it's 2016 everything has changed? It has not. It will not. People are evil today, and will be that way a thousand years from now. It becomes very dangerous when you think they have changed because then you let your guard down.

We do need diplomats and linguists, as well as scientist and mathematicians. We need a population that has a grasp on foreign events and policy; knowing how it affects their lives and livelihood.

This would all be nice, but we don't have time. Kids will only absorb so much. If you knew anything about history you'd know that education changes. In the 1800's, kids were taught different things for the times. Kids only went to school for half a day, and didn't go past 8th grade. Today, kids need to learn different things. Learning linguistics and 13 year of history is not going to help them in any way, especially when they try to get a job in a futuristic, robotic, technological world. They will be stuck on the side of the road begging food. What good is geopolitics then?

This is very important since our future will involve technologies so unbelievable, and so advanced, that to even use them one must be very smart. The technologies that will be rolled out into the public sphere over the next 50-100 years will change society in profound ways, much like the internet did in the 90's and 2000's. These technologies will rob many people's of their jobs. The jobs of the future will involve physics, science, chemistry, robotics, and mathematics. To be able to get these jobs and do them well, people will need 15-20 years of study in the sciences and mathematics. If we do not reform our public schools, then all of these jobs will be given to the Asians. The Asians already see the future.

Asian countries possess a homogeneous culture, which is something the US does not have, theirs is not a one size fits all education system. Furthermore, I would not want to put my children through the educational rigors that some Asian countries place upon their kids.

Why not? You certainly don't mind them sitting in front of the TV and internet 4-6 hours a day. It sounds like laziness to me. When I was a kid we went to school and did chores, and then talked at the dinner table until 8 in the evening. Funny, but it didn't seem like a chore to me. Maybe you are just cow-towing to a wimpy generation? That would be a poor thing, since many cultures around the world force their kids to study and work hard. They will bury us.
School all day, supplemental school afterwards, along with an extensive exam process to get into secondary education systems. Kids live for school, are under extreme stress and there is shame attached to not being admitted to the most prestigious high schools; your lot in life is determined by this.

Their children learn the math and sciences for much of their public school learning so that they are far ahead of us by the time they graduate high school. They are ready to enter college and excel in their studies. In their grad school studies they easily work through the classes and graduate at the top of the classes and take the best jobs.
Even today, we are seeing that degrees that were so lucrative in the past mean nothing today. This is because technology is the sector of the economy that will provide most of the jobs, and most of the higher paying jobs.

The skill needs of an economy ebb and flow. The education system can not totally modify itself every few years to meet the demand, by the time it does, the demand changes. It can only present a well round individuals that are capable of meeting the changes when they occur.

Two: The public school system must teach philosophy and psychology heavily. I am appalled at the amount of apple pie eating Americans who still want to settle their differences with their fist-a-cuffs. They also believe that might makes right. You can still see full grown adults verbally and physically abuse nerds, wimps, bald guys, small guys, ....anyone who is different. How despicable. This is happening because of the public school systems lack of integrity, philosophy, and psychology. These idiot kids who aren't taught integrity, dignity, and respect are growing up and going out into the job world and pissing everyone off. Often times these idiots end up homeless because no one wants them around.

I have to agree with you to some degree. But, considering religious and ethnic differences, philosophy and psychology would be as much of a hard pill to swallow as practical sex education, and it not appropriate at the grade school or middle school level; concepts are too abstract.
No it is not. Kids understand the philosophy of giving to the poor, right? They can't learn to love the un-loveable too? They can't learn that picking on people who are different is stupid?
Philosophy and psychology is currently offered at the high school level as an elective. As far as respect or disrespect is concern, this needs to start at home.

It will not start at home because their parents weren't taught it either. They were taught by paddles, preachers, and TV shows, not by what is proven as good and true.

We have a current culture of passing blame unto others when problems occur.

This isn't happened in Asia, where teachers teach philosophy and punish bullying and dis-respect. In fact, Asians are the least violent people on earth. Maybe we should le
Peepette
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1/26/2016 1:26:32 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
J50wells: Your post met character limits so I could not reply within your text.

**"Yes, and we do this. Writing and speech are very important, unfortunately, they tend to take a back seat from things like PE, Shop, and Creative Foods classes."**

This is ridiculous. Not every kid is going to like or be adept in math or sciences, what are they going to do for a living. PE is to instill a habit for long term health. Shop is for students that wish to get into the trades, like carpentry, HVAC, plumbing, electrical and culinary arts; trades in high demand now and will be in the future. These courses are hardly in the forefront; they are often the first to get cut as budgets get squeezed.

***"We do teach history, but we don't need 13 years of it."***

Do you even know what teaching is all about? In grammar school overall concepts are taught and build upon in successive years. In third grade kids learn about the pilgrims. Fourth grade branches of government. Students don"t learn about legislative process or the Federalist Papers until high school. In all subjects, there is a layering of concepts over time as kids develop intellectually. Unfortunately, 13 years of history might be enough since many 20 something"s can"t name the branches of government or recall the name of the current VP.

***"Is there any one public educated student that can tell you about the Israel Palestine conflict?.......etc."***

I was public educated and I can ramble on about the topic at length, even spout off some history of the region that might provide insight on what is occurring from and historical context. US aid to Israel was 130 billion dollars this year alone. Do you think I don"t take an interest in where my tax dollars go and for what reason? This is what I"m talking about. What"s going on there does affect us here.

**" What is important for us is to learn how we became one of the kindest, friendliest, most powerful nations in world history."***

(Shaking head in disbelief) We are not the kindest, friendliest, most powerful nation in world history. We are the most powerful nation of this worlds" recent history only. If you knew our history you would not even think of letting this phrase escape your lips. We killed Native Americans, and we topple governments for their natural resources; the list goes on. That is not to say that other powerful countries don"t do the same; but we are not kind or friendly unless there is some kind of pay off on the back end. I am astounded you received A"s and B"s in history.

***"another nation is learning physics and mathematics and then conquers you."**

Where do these other nations send their brightest college aged kids to school, the US. Really, open your eyes, what kind of media hype have you been drinking.

***"They will take your lands, enslave your kids, and sleep with your women"***

I"m really starting to see where you are coming from. You listen to all the Fox news hyperbole that makes you feel that the scary Muslims or Asians will invade the US any day now. You are harebrained and seriously misinformed. You are not only lacking a base in history but, also swallow whatever the media feeds you without bothering to check out the facts.

***"This would all be nice, but we don't have time. Kids will only absorb so much. If you knew anything about history you'd know that education changes. In the 1800's, kids were taught different things for the times"****

Here are the brass tacks of the matter. I"m a former grade school teacher; I"m very knowledgeable on the subject of education and education history. You sir, have no concept at on what you are talking about on so many levels on this thread.

On the topic of the Asian education system, you fail here as well. Many of these kids are up a 6 am and don"t get home until 10 pm, especially at the high school level. You can think of our school system as wimpy but, our teen suicide rates don"t even hit the same charts as those of Japan, China or South Korea.
ResponsiblyIrresponsible
Posts: 12,398
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1/26/2016 1:27:19 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/12/2016 10:00:29 PM, 2cents4change wrote:
This thread is for ideas that individuals have to change the education system. Personal experiences and referenced research, statistics are welcomed.

We have an education forum. Put this there: this topic has absolutely nothing to do with economics.
~ResponsiblyIrresponsible

DDO's Economics Messiah
Foxian
Posts: 53
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1/26/2016 2:14:20 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/26/2016 1:26:32 AM, Peepette wrote:
Many of these kids are up a 6 am and don"t get home until 10 pm,
This is a very accurate description of my average day attending a tier one high school in China.
Peepette
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1/26/2016 2:58:59 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/26/2016 2:14:20 AM, Foxian wrote:
At 1/26/2016 1:26:32 AM, Peepette wrote:
Many of these kids are up a 6 am and don"t get home until 10 pm,
This is a very accurate description of my average day attending a tier one high school in China.

Foxian, though I hold education is very high regard, I feel teens do need to have fun once in a while. It's good for social skills and to just blowing off some steam. I wish you the very best and hope you get to have fun every now and then.
Peepette
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1/26/2016 3:11:08 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/26/2016 1:27:19 AM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:
At 1/12/2016 10:00:29 PM, 2cents4change wrote:
This thread is for ideas that individuals have to change the education system. Personal experiences and referenced research, statistics are welcomed.

We have an education forum. Put this there: this topic has absolutely nothing to do with economics.

ResponsiblyIrresponsible you certainly are well versed in economics, more so than most and certainly more so than I. I follow your post and admire your in depth knowledge on the subject; I've learned a thing or two from you. But, please lighten up. You sound like we're invading your personal space; if you can't smell my breathe I'm not standing too close. This particular subject will be off the radar shortly.
ResponsiblyIrresponsible
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1/26/2016 3:14:45 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/26/2016 3:11:08 AM, Peepette wrote:
ResponsiblyIrresponsible you certainly are well versed in economics, more so than most and certainly more so than I. I follow your post and admire your in depth knowledge on the subject; I've learned a thing or two from you.

Cheers.

But, please lighten up. You sound like we're invading your personal space; if you can't smell my breathe I'm not standing too close. This particular subject will be off the radar shortly.

This isn't a matter of me lightening up or not: this topic has nothing to do with economics. The forum isn't my personal space, even though I'm virtually the only person nursing it back to health--and anyone will tell you I'm dying for more activity in the economics forum--but that *does not* mean that I'm going to allow it to turn into an "anything goes" hamper. That would go for the DDO forums, or the politics forum, or anything: it's an affront to demarcating one forum from another, and turns the economic forum--especially on life support at the moment--into a joke.

You're in the wrong forum: period. If it makes me a stickler for pointing out reality, so be it.
~ResponsiblyIrresponsible

DDO's Economics Messiah
Rosalie
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1/26/2016 3:16:02 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/26/2016 3:14:45 AM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:
At 1/26/2016 3:11:08 AM, Peepette wrote:
ResponsiblyIrresponsible you certainly are well versed in economics, more so than most and certainly more so than I. I follow your post and admire your in depth knowledge on the subject; I've learned a thing or two from you.

Cheers.

But, please lighten up. You sound like we're invading your personal space; if you can't smell my breathe I'm not standing too close. This particular subject will be off the radar shortly.

This isn't a matter of me lightening up or not: this topic has nothing to do with economics. The forum isn't my personal space, even though I'm virtually the only person nursing it back to health--and anyone will tell you I'm dying for more activity in the economics forum--but that *does not* mean that I'm going to allow it to turn into an "anything goes" hamper. That would go for the DDO forums, or the politics forum, or anything: it's an affront to demarcating one forum from another, and turns the economic forum--especially on life support at the moment--into a joke.

You're in the wrong forum: period. If it makes me a stickler for pointing out reality, so be it.

Agreed.

Max may remove it.
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j50wells
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1/27/2016 1:42:35 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/26/2016 1:26:32 AM, Peepette wrote:
J50wells: Your post met character limits so I could not reply within your text.

**"Yes, and we do this. Writing and speech are very important, unfortunately, they tend to take a back seat from things like PE, Shop, and Creative Foods classes."**

This is ridiculous. Not every kid is going to like or be adept in math or sciences, what are they going to do for a living. PE is to instill a habit for long term health. Shop is for students that wish to get into the trades, like carpentry, HVAC, plumbing, electrical and culinary arts; trades in high demand now and will be in the future. These courses are hardly in the forefront; they are often the first to get cut as budgets get squeezed.

I can see that you do not have a lot of understanding about things. No, kids don't need shop to learn trades. If you went to work after high school in a trade, you would have found out immediately that you knew nothing of what you were doing, and had to be taught it as you worked. Nailing a few boards in a shop class in 8th grade still means you are going to be a piss poor hammerer when you're 19. It takes several weeks of sawing and hammering, 10 hours a day, to get good. I spent 10 years in the construction trade. I know what I'm talking about.

***"We do teach history, but we don't need 13 years of it."***

Do you even know what teaching is all about? In grammar school overall concepts are taught and build upon in successive years. In third grade kids learn about the pilgrims. Fourth grade branches of government. Students don"t learn about legislative process or the Federalist Papers until high school. In all subjects, there is a layering of concepts over time as kids develop intellectually. Unfortunately, 13 years of history might be enough since many 20 something"s can"t name the branches of government or recall the name of the current VP.

You didn't here what I said, at all. I said that students don't remember any of it, period. I have an IQ of 125, and I still can only tell you 5% of what I learned in history classes for thirteen years. You are also putting words in my mouth. Never said we shouldn't teach history, but 13 years is not needed. Instead, there should be a few years of history, focusing on mainly the most important parts of history.

***"Is there any one public educated student that can tell you about the Israel Palestine conflict?.......etc."***

I was public educated and I can ramble on about the topic at length, even spout off some history of the region that might provide insight on what is occurring from and historical context. US aid to Israel was 130 billion dollars this year alone. Do you think I don"t take an interest in where my tax dollars go and for what reason? This is what I"m talking about. What"s going on there does affect us here.

Wow, dude, you get a gold star. Congratulations, you are the only public educated student who knows anything about the Middle East. Do you know why you know? Because you read books after high school, read newspapers, and kept up on it. Go ask all your old class-mates about the Middle East. I'll bet only 5% of them know what you know, which proves my point that 13 years of history doesn't do anything for anyone.
**" What is important for us is to learn how we became one of the kindest, friendliest, most powerful nations in world history."***

(Shaking head in disbelief) We are not the kindest, friendliest, most powerful nation in world history. We are the most powerful nation of this worlds" recent history only. If you knew our history you would not even think of letting this phrase escape your lips. We killed Native Americans, and we topple governments for their natural resources; the list goes on. That is not to say that other powerful countries don"t do the same; but we are not kind or friendly unless there is some kind of pay off on the back end. I am astounded you received A"s and B"s in history.

Dude, you can shake your head all you want. This proves how absolutely ignorant of history you are. You should be ashamed. I have read about history. In the last twenty years I have read nearly two hundred books about history. You would do yourself a service if you did the same. If you had read your history, you'd see that nations who practice free markets and Democracy have a much lower rate of genocide, theft, rape, and murder. In fact, if you compare Europe and the USA to the other nations of the world, going back a thousand years, you'll see that Democracies have killed about a tenth of the people that other nations have. If you studied Russia, China, the Middle East, and Africa, you'd see a brutality that makes America look like and angel. It's funny because I already know your type. You are scoffing in your mind and thinking "What the hell? We killed Indians!!! And we did this thing, and that thing." Yeah, we did, and it was wrong. But nations were still in their backwards way of thinking at that time. Slavery, which was practiced world-wide for thousands of years, wasn't frowned upon, yet. It took the Enlightenment and philosophy to help wake people up. Again, I know your type. You have this utopian idea of life and nations. You think there should be some kind of apology and walking through broken glass to pay for our sins. But this would be stupid because every nation on earth practiced slavery. Where would it end? It's good that the whole world woke up and realized that slavery is wrong. But it is still practiced in Africa in some places.

***"another nation is learning physics and mathematics and then conquers you."**

Where do these other nations send their brightest college aged kids to school, the US. Really, open your eyes, what kind of media hype have you been drinking.

Oh God, you idiot. No duh! We all know they come here, but they don't come here to go to school. They come here for a career. Do you think they come to our universities because they are better? No, they come here because they are smarter. The corporations want these smarter people in our economy, so they pay for their schooling. They come here and get the free degree and then the high paying job.



I"m really starting to see where you are coming from. You listen to all the Fox news hyperbole that makes you feel that the scary Muslims or Asians will invade the US any day now. You are harebrained and seriously misinformed. You are not only lacking a base in history but, also swallow whatever the media feeds you without bothering to check out the facts.
You are showing yourself as a troll, and as dishonest. You are also showing that you know nothing of history, nor military, nor the desire for power that many nations have. If you knew anything about Communism's history and Islam, you'd know they are a threat.Congratulations, you get the ignorance of the week award. Instead of listening to your Communist run CNN News for your info, why don't you go read a book. Gulag Archipelago is a good place to start.Black Book of Communism.And then read a book about Islam's goal of a world wide Caliphate. No, Fox News didn't make it up. I don't even watch Fox. Get a grip.
***"This would all be nice, but we don't have time. Kids will only absorb so much. If you knew anything about history you'd know that education changes. In the 1800's, kids were taught different things for the times"****

Here are the brass tacks of the matter. I"m a former grade school teacher; I"m very knowledgeable on the subject of education and education history. You sir, have no concept at on what you are talking about on so many levels on this thread.

On the topic of the Asian education system, you fail here as well. Many of these kids are up a 6 am and don"t get home until 10 pm, especially at the high school level. You can think of our school system as wimpy but, our teen suicide rates don"t even hit the same charts as