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Understanding Bernie Sanders

walker_harris3
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1/26/2016 8:36:36 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
For the life of me, I cannot understand how Bernie Sanders' proposed drastic rise of taxes on corporate America would actually benefit both the economy and society.

I think we've all noticed a trend of large job providing companies turning to cheap labor and cheaper for a while now; a recent example being Disney laying off 90 American workers, and making these same Americans train their immigrant labor replacements. I think this is absolutely disgusting by the way and am currently boycotting Disney. Why are these companies and corporations doing this? High taxes.

We have a corporate tax rate that is among the highest in the world already, which leads companies to move their headquarters to countries with cheaper taxes so that the companies can expand their business in a safe and affordable manner. Note: this exodus causes LESS U.S. TAX REVENUE! These companies no longer pay taxes to the US government!

What I see in Bernie's policy is a continuation and quite frankly, a speeding up of the process in the name of paying off student debt and other communistic notions. If we continue this trend, more Americans will lose their jobs to cheaper labor, leaving more on welfare. More companies moving their headquarters to other countries will leave the US with less tax revenue to fund welfare for the citizens. Given our history of big government without cuts, we will be forced to either borrow the money and add to an enormous national debt, or have to raise taxes again. Raising taxes again will continue to cause the problem, and we will have a continuous cycle of businesses leaving and more lost jobs and more welfare recipients. This will lead to the destruction of the economy and our nation.

I'd really like to hear other opinions on the subject matter, as I really cannot understand why anyone would support the man from my perspective.
slo1
Posts: 4,359
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1/27/2016 2:48:54 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/26/2016 8:36:36 PM, walker_harris3 wrote:
For the life of me, I cannot understand how Bernie Sanders' proposed drastic rise of taxes on corporate America would actually benefit both the economy and society.

I think we've all noticed a trend of large job providing companies turning to cheap labor and cheaper for a while now; a recent example being Disney laying off 90 American workers, and making these same Americans train their immigrant labor replacements. I think this is absolutely disgusting by the way and am currently boycotting Disney. Why are these companies and corporations doing this? High taxes.

We have a corporate tax rate that is among the highest in the world already, which leads companies to move their headquarters to countries with cheaper taxes so that the companies can expand their business in a safe and affordable manner. Note: this exodus causes LESS U.S. TAX REVENUE! These companies no longer pay taxes to the US government!

What I see in Bernie's policy is a continuation and quite frankly, a speeding up of the process in the name of paying off student debt and other communistic notions. If we continue this trend, more Americans will lose their jobs to cheaper labor, leaving more on welfare. More companies moving their headquarters to other countries will leave the US with less tax revenue to fund welfare for the citizens. Given our history of big government without cuts, we will be forced to either borrow the money and add to an enormous national debt, or have to raise taxes again. Raising taxes again will continue to cause the problem, and we will have a continuous cycle of businesses leaving and more lost jobs and more welfare recipients. This will lead to the destruction of the economy and our nation.

I'd really like to hear other opinions on the subject matter, as I really cannot understand why anyone would support the man from my perspective.

You talk generically. It think it is important to look at each proposal independently. For example his proposal for free state university, it may sound "communistic" but it is just an extension of communistic high school. How did we go from no public paid education to public paid K-12. What was the pros and cons to public paying for other kids to go to school. Can any of those lessons be applied to post high school. For example, does it pay to bring in all the H1 visa because we don't have enough qualified Americans?

I'm not currently saying it is good or bad, but I find generic labels do not bring healthy discussion that can get down to truths. What policies or suggestions of his really burn your butt?
walker_harris3
Posts: 273
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1/27/2016 3:32:23 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/27/2016 2:48:54 AM, slo1 wrote:
At 1/26/2016 8:36:36 PM, walker_harris3 wrote:
For the life of me, I cannot understand how Bernie Sanders' proposed drastic rise of taxes on corporate America would actually benefit both the economy and society.

I think we've all noticed a trend of large job providing companies turning to cheap labor and cheaper for a while now; a recent example being Disney laying off 90 American workers, and making these same Americans train their immigrant labor replacements. I think this is absolutely disgusting by the way and am currently boycotting Disney. Why are these companies and corporations doing this? High taxes.

We have a corporate tax rate that is among the highest in the world already, which leads companies to move their headquarters to countries with cheaper taxes so that the companies can expand their business in a safe and affordable manner. Note: this exodus causes LESS U.S. TAX REVENUE! These companies no longer pay taxes to the US government!

What I see in Bernie's policy is a continuation and quite frankly, a speeding up of the process in the name of paying off student debt and other communistic notions. If we continue this trend, more Americans will lose their jobs to cheaper labor, leaving more on welfare. More companies moving their headquarters to other countries will leave the US with less tax revenue to fund welfare for the citizens. Given our history of big government without cuts, we will be forced to either borrow the money and add to an enormous national debt, or have to raise taxes again. Raising taxes again will continue to cause the problem, and we will have a continuous cycle of businesses leaving and more lost jobs and more welfare recipients. This will lead to the destruction of the economy and our nation.

I'd really like to hear other opinions on the subject matter, as I really cannot understand why anyone would support the man from my perspective.

You talk generically. It think it is important to look at each proposal independently. For example his proposal for free state university, it may sound "communistic" but it is just an extension of communistic high school. How did we go from no public paid education to public paid K-12. What was the pros and cons to public paying for other kids to go to school. Can any of those lessons be applied to post high school. For example, does it pay to bring in all the H1 visa because we don't have enough qualified Americans?

I'm not currently saying it is good or bad, but I find generic labels do not bring healthy discussion that can get down to truths. What policies or suggestions of his really burn your butt?

Public High School isn't free, parents still pay costs for their student to attend. Also, there isn't really a parallel between the two in my mind as College isn't a necessity, but a High School education is. But that is a different debate.

My main problem with Bernie is the raising of taxes. Raising taxes only leads to companies and corporations moving overseas to countries with lower taxes, so that they can make more business ventures and investments to make more money. So in effect, raising taxes actually decreases tax revenue. Here's a real world example of what I'm saying:

In 1920, the marginal tax rate for those with income over 100,000 was 60%, keep in mind those making over 100,000 were essentially the top class in that day. However, the share in taxes for them was only 30%, and the government collected about 300 billion total in revenue from them. Fast forward to 1924. Coolidge makes a tax cut from 60 to around 45%. Now the government revenue remains the same, but the tax share of the top increases to around 45%. Coolidge then in 1925 cuts the top margin rate to 25. Both tax share and revenue continue the upward trend. Fast forward to the peak of the roaring twenties in 1928 and 1929 after 4 years of a 25% tax, and the top class is paying 725 billion in taxes and is holding 65% of the tax burden. That's double the tax revenue and tax burden when compared to 1920, with the tax rate lowered 35%.

From those numbers (all from a Treasury Department study), and also from recent knowledge of the mass corporate exodus from our country, we can determine that raising taxes DECREASES tax revenue and puts a heavier burden on the lower class citizens in terms of paid taxes. Thus the philosophy of raising taxes is proven to be false.

I'll also add that the real unemployment rate under Coolidge ranged from 1% to 12% with those low taxes, and now we have a real unemployment rate of 42% with very high taxes. The mass unemployment can be directly contributed to companies resorting to H1B cheap immigrant labor, which in some cases like agriculture, is needed, but certainly not for IT workers at Disney for God's sake; and companies moving to other nations to take advantage of cheaper taxes.

Supporters praise Bernie's consistency over his career, and Bernie has been on the record in saying a 90% rate is not too high, and also he said that he believes no one should make over a million dollars even. I find this kind of philosophy (which I have proved doesn't work) to be extremely dangerous to our population and economy. In a perfect world where business is slave to the US economy and labor force, Bernie's policy would work. We are in the real world, however. The only way for Bernie's tax policy to really work is if we became a communist economy, which we can agree is definitely not the answer.
slo1
Posts: 4,359
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1/28/2016 12:35:38 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/27/2016 3:32:23 AM, walker_harris3 wrote:
At 1/27/2016 2:48:54 AM, slo1 wrote:
At 1/26/2016 8:36:36 PM, walker_harris3 wrote:
For the life of me, I cannot understand how Bernie Sanders' proposed drastic rise of taxes on corporate America would actually benefit both the economy and society.

I think we've all noticed a trend of large job providing companies turning to cheap labor and cheaper for a while now; a recent example being Disney laying off 90 American workers, and making these same Americans train their immigrant labor replacements. I think this is absolutely disgusting by the way and am currently boycotting Disney. Why are these companies and corporations doing this? High taxes.

We have a corporate tax rate that is among the highest in the world already, which leads companies to move their headquarters to countries with cheaper taxes so that the companies can expand their business in a safe and affordable manner. Note: this exodus causes LESS U.S. TAX REVENUE! These companies no longer pay taxes to the US government!

What I see in Bernie's policy is a continuation and quite frankly, a speeding up of the process in the name of paying off student debt and other communistic notions. If we continue this trend, more Americans will lose their jobs to cheaper labor, leaving more on welfare. More companies moving their headquarters to other countries will leave the US with less tax revenue to fund welfare for the citizens. Given our history of big government without cuts, we will be forced to either borrow the money and add to an enormous national debt, or have to raise taxes again. Raising taxes again will continue to cause the problem, and we will have a continuous cycle of businesses leaving and more lost jobs and more welfare recipients. This will lead to the destruction of the economy and our nation.

I'd really like to hear other opinions on the subject matter, as I really cannot understand why anyone would support the man from my perspective.

You talk generically. It think it is important to look at each proposal independently. For example his proposal for free state university, it may sound "communistic" but it is just an extension of communistic high school. How did we go from no public paid education to public paid K-12. What was the pros and cons to public paying for other kids to go to school. Can any of those lessons be applied to post high school. For example, does it pay to bring in all the H1 visa because we don't have enough qualified Americans?

I'm not currently saying it is good or bad, but I find generic labels do not bring healthy discussion that can get down to truths. What policies or suggestions of his really burn your butt?

Public High School isn't free, parents still pay costs for their student to attend. Also, there isn't really a parallel between the two in my mind as College isn't a necessity, but a High School education is. But that is a different debate.

My main problem with Bernie is the raising of taxes. Raising taxes only leads to companies and corporations moving overseas to countries with lower taxes, so that they can make more business ventures and investments to make more money. So in effect, raising taxes actually decreases tax revenue. Here's a real world example of what I'm saying:

In 1920, the marginal tax rate for those with income over 100,000 was 60%, keep in mind those making over 100,000 were essentially the top class in that day. However, the share in taxes for them was only 30%, and the government collected about 300 billion total in revenue from them. Fast forward to 1924. Coolidge makes a tax cut from 60 to around 45%. Now the government revenue remains the same, but the tax share of the top increases to around 45%. Coolidge then in 1925 cuts the top margin rate to 25. Both tax share and revenue continue the upward trend. Fast forward to the peak of the roaring twenties in 1928 and 1929 after 4 years of a 25% tax, and the top class is paying 725 billion in taxes and is holding 65% of the tax burden. That's double the tax revenue and tax burden when compared to 1920, with the tax rate lowered 35%.

From those numbers (all from a Treasury Department study), and also from recent knowledge of the mass corporate exodus from our country, we can determine that raising taxes DECREASES tax revenue and puts a heavier burden on the lower class citizens in terms of paid taxes. Thus the philosophy of raising taxes is proven to be false.

I'll also add that the real unemployment rate under Coolidge ranged from 1% to 12% with those low taxes, and now we have a real unemployment rate of 42% with very high taxes. The mass unemployment can be directly contributed to companies resorting to H1B cheap immigrant labor, which in some cases like agriculture, is needed, but certainly not for IT workers at Disney for God's sake; and companies moving to other nations to take advantage of cheaper taxes.

Supporters praise Bernie's consistency over his career, and Bernie has been on the record in saying a 90% rate is not too high, and also he said that he believes no one should make over a million dollars even. I find this kind of philosophy (which I have proved doesn't work) to be extremely dangerous to our population and economy. In a perfect world where business is slave to the US economy and labor force, Bernie's policy would work. We are in the real world, however. The only way for Bernie's tax policy to really work is if we became a communist economy, which we can agree is definitely not the answer.

One's philosophy is very different from how they would act as President. Here is his tax plan which Democrats are even stating is excessive. 52% top rate for income over $10 million. I'll have to study it a bit. It certainly is more than rates in the last 30 years, but it certainly is not the highest we have been. If we were not communists when it was higher, then I would be reluctant to call us communists if we had Bernie's tax plan.

My entire problem with taxation arguments is that it is more of a political game than practical game. Concepts such as as low taxes as possible and slash gov services is just as invalid as over taxing. Obviously the tax discussion needs to be based upon how much a nation is spending, so we go back to the programs. I think I heard that Bernies plan to offer state college for free would cost 90 billion or so. I'm not convinced that such notion is "communist" and that it would not pay a return to society including a financial return.

There is also an argument that free market believers need to start questioning what government shall offer or people like Bernie set up gov run programs such as single payer health care rather than using the open market to solve problems like Medicare Part D leverages to offer seniors prescription drug coverage. In other words conservatives snooze then they lose.

http://www.forbes.com...
walker_harris3
Posts: 273
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1/28/2016 1:15:03 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
One's philosophy is very different from how they would act as President. Here is his tax plan which Democrats are even stating is excessive. 52% top rate for income over $10 million. I'll have to study it a bit. It certainly is more than rates in the last 30 years, but it certainly is not the highest we have been. If we were not communists when it was higher, then I would be reluctant to call us communists if we had Bernie's tax plan.

My entire problem with taxation arguments is that it is more of a political game than practical game. Concepts such as as low taxes as possible and slash gov services is just as invalid as over taxing. Obviously the tax discussion needs to be based upon how much a nation is spending, so we go back to the programs. I think I heard that Bernies plan to offer state college for free would cost 90 billion or so. I'm not convinced that such notion is "communist" and that it would not pay a return to society including a financial return.

There is also an argument that free market believers need to start questioning what government shall offer or people like Bernie set up gov run programs such as single payer health care rather than using the open market to solve problems like Medicare Part D leverages to offer seniors prescription drug coverage. In other words conservatives snooze then they lose.

http://www.forbes.com...

That's 90 billion a year, plus the current amount of student debt which is around 1.5 trillion dollars. We spend half that amount on the military to put it into perspective. And that is a communist proposal and it isn't fair at all. It's taking the people who actually payed for college's money, and is giving it to people who now aren't paying for college. Not to mention it will destroy the private university system; who the hell would want to go to a university no matter how prestigious for upwards of 35 grand a year, when they can just go to public for free? That's just more destruction of the private sector, and essentially gives the government a monopoly on college, and government monopolies do not have an illustrious history.

What's going to happen when Bernie's potential 4 or 8 years run out too? There's absolutely no guarantee that a new president would come in and keep the program, I'd actually say there's absolutely no chance. That means 12 years worth of college students will stand higher in society coming out of college with no payments needed to be made, while prior students and future students will still have a monetary burden to hold coming out of graduation. That's obviously fiscal inequality, and Bernie's proposal will only work theoretically if we continue to elect socialists or communists after him, and that's not going to happen. Moreover, we simply can't afford an additional 1.5 trillion dollars in government spending, that's literally ALL deficit spending! It won't change the fact that raising taxes will still drive more jobs and businesses out of the Country, meaning less available jobs for students coming out of College. So under Bernie's proposal, I believe they will be WORSE off. There's no good in an education if you can't put it to use.

I don't see how you could conclude that slashing taxes and budget doesn't work and is invalid, when I just proved to you with actual government information that it does. That's only one example also. Kennedy cut taxes and spending, Truman cut the taxes and spending, Reagan cut the taxes but NOT SPENDING, therefore he did not use a pure form of supply side economics, which is something anti-Reagan and supply side people do not understand. All created the platforms for the major economic booms of the 20th century.

I'm sure your argument against supply side is FDR's fiscal policy, which people argue "saved" us from the Great Depression, despite the fact that progressive policy under Hoover and FDR actually prolonged the Depression. In 1939, 18% of the nation was still unemployed, despite FDR's 7 years of saving the nation.
Check out this article: http://newsroom.ucla.edu...

I'd like to reiterate though my main contention with Bernie and his policy. Raising taxes and costs destroys the incentive to expand business and hire more workers, drives companies to pay taxes and use labor in different countries, and the American people lose jobs. It's shooting yourself in the foot, you lose tax revenue and jobs for your people. We can't take much longer of this Corporate Flight, or eventually we will be a total welfare state and spend ourselves into oblivion. I think I've seen that the cost of Bernie's proposals factored in with current spending is around 18 trillion and would actually more than double our debt again under his Presidency.
slo1
Posts: 4,359
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1/28/2016 1:22:57 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/28/2016 1:15:03 AM, walker_harris3 wrote:
One's philosophy is very different from how they would act as President. Here is his tax plan which Democrats are even stating is excessive. 52% top rate for income over $10 million. I'll have to study it a bit. It certainly is more than rates in the last 30 years, but it certainly is not the highest we have been. If we were not communists when it was higher, then I would be reluctant to call us communists if we had Bernie's tax plan.

My entire problem with taxation arguments is that it is more of a political game than practical game. Concepts such as as low taxes as possible and slash gov services is just as invalid as over taxing. Obviously the tax discussion needs to be based upon how much a nation is spending, so we go back to the programs. I think I heard that Bernies plan to offer state college for free would cost 90 billion or so. I'm not convinced that such notion is "communist" and that it would not pay a return to society including a financial return.

There is also an argument that free market believers need to start questioning what government shall offer or people like Bernie set up gov run programs such as single payer health care rather than using the open market to solve problems like Medicare Part D leverages to offer seniors prescription drug coverage. In other words conservatives snooze then they lose.

http://www.forbes.com...

That's 90 billion a year, plus the current amount of student debt which is around 1.5 trillion dollars. We spend half that amount on the military to put it into perspective. And that is a communist proposal and it isn't fair at all. It's taking the people who actually payed for college's money, and is giving it to people who now aren't paying for college. Not to mention it will destroy the private university system; who the hell would want to go to a university no matter how prestigious for upwards of 35 grand a year, when they can just go to public for free? That's just more destruction of the private sector, and essentially gives the government a monopoly on college, and government monopolies do not have an illustrious history.

Just to be clear the defense budget is well over 1/2 trillion per year so it is very far from your estimate of 45 billion. Will respond later
walker_harris3
Posts: 273
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1/28/2016 1:35:52 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
Just to be clear the defense budget is well over 1/2 trillion per year so it is very far from your estimate of 45 billion. Will respond later

I know, I was saying that when you factor in paying off the student debt as Bernie has promised, the total spending on college tuition would be close to 2 trillion dollars.
slo1
Posts: 4,359
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1/29/2016 12:55:53 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/28/2016 1:35:52 PM, walker_harris3 wrote:
Just to be clear the defense budget is well over 1/2 trillion per year so it is very far from your estimate of 45 billion. Will respond later

I know, I was saying that when you factor in paying off the student debt as Bernie has promised, the total spending on college tuition would be close to 2 trillion dollars.

His website says he wants to cut student loan interest rates in half, not forgive the debt. Where are you getting that?
slo1
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1/29/2016 1:04:02 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
Let's do like bernie did and create a new tax bracket for the income $10 million and above. What tax rate moves a person from conservative to liberal to socialist?

25 - 35 - 45?