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Democratic positions I don"t understand

ken1122
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4/24/2016 2:19:53 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
Democrats are usually okay with allowing illegal aliens from Mexico to come over the southern border of the US. But then they have a problem with wages being too low, and the gap between the rich and poor getting larger and larger. But they don"t seem to see how these issues are related. When the poor from Mexico come over illegally they help drive down wages in the US by doing jobs at a wage US citizens are unwilling to do it at, and when the rich are able to get people to work for them at a wage that underbids legal citizens, this gives the rich more profit thus increasing their income at the expense of the poor.

Am I missing something here?

Ken
Peepette
Posts: 1,242
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4/24/2016 2:45:38 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/24/2016 2:19:53 PM, ken1122 wrote:
Democrats are usually okay with allowing illegal aliens from Mexico to come over the southern border of the US. But then they have a problem with wages being too low, and the gap between the rich and poor getting larger and larger. But they don"t seem to see how these issues are related. When the poor from Mexico come over illegally they help drive down wages in the US by doing jobs at a wage US citizens are unwilling to do it at, and when the rich are able to get people to work for them at a wage that underbids legal citizens, this gives the rich more profit thus increasing their income at the expense of the poor.

Am I missing something here?

Ken

The gap between rich and poor is not due to illegal immigration. I feel the implemented policies of trickle down economics and deregulation over the last 30 years is the culprit. The pervasive propaganda that immigrants take jobs that no one else will do which drives down wage is a political slant that steers away from the real cause. The financial sector and big business has undue influence on government workings where they seek the highest profit possible with minimal reinvestment. One factor was when the trend from paying CEOs and others at high levels of business became stock performance based; it contributed to the turning of the tide. The loosening of regulations in the banking sector with their investments was another factor. There's more money to be made moving money around than actually producing a product for consumption that entails labor costs. Uneven taxation due to loopholes and overseas accounts to hide profits all fit into the current economic scheme. Illegal immigration is the very least of our worries in the overall economic picture.
ken1122
Posts: 497
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4/24/2016 2:56:02 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/24/2016 2:45:38 PM, Peepette wrote:
At 4/24/2016 2:19:53 PM, ken1122 wrote:
Democrats are usually okay with allowing illegal aliens from Mexico to come over the southern border of the US. But then they have a problem with wages being too low, and the gap between the rich and poor getting larger and larger. But they don"t seem to see how these issues are related. When the poor from Mexico come over illegally they help drive down wages in the US by doing jobs at a wage US citizens are unwilling to do it at, and when the rich are able to get people to work for them at a wage that underbids legal citizens, this gives the rich more profit thus increasing their income at the expense of the poor.

Am I missing something here?

Ken

The gap between rich and poor is not due to illegal immigration. I feel the implemented policies of trickle down economics and deregulation over the last 30 years is the culprit. The pervasive propaganda that immigrants take jobs that no one else will do which drives down wage is a political slant that steers away from the real cause. The financial sector and big business has undue influence on government workings where they seek the highest profit possible with minimal reinvestment. One factor was when the trend from paying CEOs and others at high levels of business became stock performance based; it contributed to the turning of the tide. The loosening of regulations in the banking sector with their investments was another factor. There's more money to be made moving money around than actually producing a product for consumption that entails labor costs. Uneven taxation due to loopholes and overseas accounts to hide profits all fit into the current economic scheme. Illegal immigration is the very least of our worries in the overall economic picture.
There are a lot of issues that drive down wages, but you can"t deny when you have one group willing to do a job at a wage the majority are unwilling, and the jobs goes to the lowest bidder, that will drive down the wages for those jobs.

Ken
Peepette
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4/24/2016 3:48:50 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/24/2016 2:56:02 PM, ken1122 wrote:
At 4/24/2016 2:45:38 PM, Peepette wrote:
At 4/24/2016 2:19:53 PM, ken1122 wrote:
Democrats are usually okay with allowing illegal aliens from Mexico to come over the southern border of the US. But then they have a problem with wages being too low, and the gap between the rich and poor getting larger and larger. But they don"t seem to see how these issues are related. When the poor from Mexico come over illegally they help drive down wages in the US by doing jobs at a wage US citizens are unwilling to do it at, and when the rich are able to get people to work for them at a wage that underbids legal citizens, this gives the rich more profit thus increasing their income at the expense of the poor.

Am I missing something here?

Ken

The gap between rich and poor is not due to illegal immigration. I feel the implemented policies of trickle down economics and deregulation over the last 30 years is the culprit. The pervasive propaganda that immigrants take jobs that no one else will do which drives down wage is a political slant that steers away from the real cause. The financial sector and big business has undue influence on government workings where they seek the highest profit possible with minimal reinvestment. One factor was when the trend from paying CEOs and others at high levels of business became stock performance based; it contributed to the turning of the tide. The loosening of regulations in the banking sector with their investments was another factor. There's more money to be made moving money around than actually producing a product for consumption that entails labor costs. Uneven taxation due to loopholes and overseas accounts to hide profits all fit into the current economic scheme. Illegal immigration is the very least of our worries in the overall economic picture.
There are a lot of issues that drive down wages, but you can"t deny when you have one group willing to do a job at a wage the majority are unwilling, and the jobs goes to the lowest bidder, that will drive down the wages for those jobs.

Ken

Some jobs in the farming sector yes. But think about jobs in general in the US. Most require at the very least a high school education and command of the English language; out of reach for the illegal immigrant. Also look at business in general, for example, a business that has 300 employees, mostly desk jobs. How many illegal immigrant custodians would that business need to hire to clean the building? The number ratios don't gel to have a significant effect. Also take into account most businesses of any size contract out cleaning services with clauses that all employees need to be legal to ensure they are not culpable in breaking laws. I really think the media and politics has skewed public thinking. Most are looking at the wrong end of the economy. Now place this nugget in the brain. Who owns the media and who benefits from casting blame away from the real cause?
ken1122
Posts: 497
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4/24/2016 4:07:50 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/24/2016 3:48:50 PM, Peepette wrote:
At 4/24/2016 2:56:02 PM, ken1122 wrote:
At 4/24/2016 2:45:38 PM, Peepette wrote:
At 4/24/2016 2:19:53 PM, ken1122 wrote:
Democrats are usually okay with allowing illegal aliens from Mexico to come over the southern border of the US. But then they have a problem with wages being too low, and the gap between the rich and poor getting larger and larger. But they don"t seem to see how these issues are related. When the poor from Mexico come over illegally they help drive down wages in the US by doing jobs at a wage US citizens are unwilling to do it at, and when the rich are able to get people to work for them at a wage that underbids legal citizens, this gives the rich more profit thus increasing their income at the expense of the poor.

Am I missing something here?

Ken

The gap between rich and poor is not due to illegal immigration. I feel the implemented policies of trickle down economics and deregulation over the last 30 years is the culprit. The pervasive propaganda that immigrants take jobs that no one else will do which drives down wage is a political slant that steers away from the real cause. The financial sector and big business has undue influence on government workings where they seek the highest profit possible with minimal reinvestment. One factor was when the trend from paying CEOs and others at high levels of business became stock performance based; it contributed to the turning of the tide. The loosening of regulations in the banking sector with their investments was another factor. There's more money to be made moving money around than actually producing a product for consumption that entails labor costs. Uneven taxation due to loopholes and overseas accounts to hide profits all fit into the current economic scheme. Illegal immigration is the very least of our worries in the overall economic picture.
There are a lot of issues that drive down wages, but you can"t deny when you have one group willing to do a job at a wage the majority are unwilling, and the jobs goes to the lowest bidder, that will drive down the wages for those jobs.

Ken

Some jobs in the farming sector yes. But think about jobs in general in the US. Most require at the very least a high school education and command of the English language; out of reach for the illegal immigrant. Also look at business in general, for example, a business that has 300 employees, mostly desk jobs. How many illegal immigrant custodians would that business need to hire to clean the building? The number ratios don't gel to have a significant effect. Also take into account most businesses of any size contract out cleaning services with clauses that all employees need to be legal to ensure they are not culpable in breaking laws. I really think the media and politics has skewed public thinking. Most are looking at the wrong end of the economy. Now place this nugget in the brain. Who owns the media and who benefits from casting blame away from the real cause?
What about the Construction industry? What about maid service, or yard maintenance? Are you telling me those wages have not been driven down?

Ken
Peepette
Posts: 1,242
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4/24/2016 4:28:01 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/24/2016 4:07:50 PM, ken1122 wrote:
At 4/24/2016 3:48:50 PM, Peepette wrote:
At 4/24/2016 2:56:02 PM, ken1122 wrote:
At 4/24/2016 2:45:38 PM, Peepette wrote:
At 4/24/2016 2:19:53 PM, ken1122 wrote:
Democrats are usually okay with allowing illegal aliens from Mexico to come over the southern border of the US. But then they have a problem with wages being too low, and the gap between the rich and poor getting larger and larger. But they don"t seem to see how these issues are related. When the poor from Mexico come over illegally they help drive down wages in the US by doing jobs at a wage US citizens are unwilling to do it at, and when the rich are able to get people to work for them at a wage that underbids legal citizens, this gives the rich more profit thus increasing their income at the expense of the poor.

Am I missing something here?

Ken

The gap between rich and poor is not due to illegal immigration. I feel the implemented policies of trickle down economics and deregulation over the last 30 years is the culprit. The pervasive propaganda that immigrants take jobs that no one else will do which drives down wage is a political slant that steers away from the real cause. The financial sector and big business has undue influence on government workings where they seek the highest profit possible with minimal reinvestment. One factor was when the trend from paying CEOs and others at high levels of business became stock performance based; it contributed to the turning of the tide. The loosening of regulations in the banking sector with their investments was another factor. There's more money to be made moving money around than actually producing a product for consumption that entails labor costs. Uneven taxation due to loopholes and overseas accounts to hide profits all fit into the current economic scheme. Illegal immigration is the very least of our worries in the overall economic picture.
There are a lot of issues that drive down wages, but you can"t deny when you have one group willing to do a job at a wage the majority are unwilling, and the jobs goes to the lowest bidder, that will drive down the wages for those jobs.

Ken

Some jobs in the farming sector yes. But think about jobs in general in the US. Most require at the very least a high school education and command of the English language; out of reach for the illegal immigrant. Also look at business in general, for example, a business that has 300 employees, mostly desk jobs. How many illegal immigrant custodians would that business need to hire to clean the building? The number ratios don't gel to have a significant effect. Also take into account most businesses of any size contract out cleaning services with clauses that all employees need to be legal to ensure they are not culpable in breaking laws. I really think the media and politics has skewed public thinking. Most are looking at the wrong end of the economy. Now place this nugget in the brain. Who owns the media and who benefits from casting blame away from the real cause?
What about the Construction industry? What about maid service, or yard maintenance? Are you telling me those wages have not been driven down?

Ken

Ken, you can stick your head in the sand if you like. But really take a look at the whole picture. You make it seem that illegal immigration is crashing the economy and significantly pushing down wages, it is not.

http://www.epi.org...
http://www.epi.org...
http://blogs.wsj.com...
ken1122
Posts: 497
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4/24/2016 4:39:01 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/24/2016 4:28:01 PM, Peepette wrote:
At 4/24/2016 4:07:50 PM, ken1122 wrote:
At 4/24/2016 3:48:50 PM, Peepette wrote:
At 4/24/2016 2:56:02 PM, ken1122 wrote:
At 4/24/2016 2:45:38 PM, Peepette wrote:
At 4/24/2016 2:19:53 PM, ken1122 wrote:
Democrats are usually okay with allowing illegal aliens from Mexico to come over the southern border of the US. But then they have a problem with wages being too low, and the gap between the rich and poor getting larger and larger. But they don"t seem to see how these issues are related. When the poor from Mexico come over illegally they help drive down wages in the US by doing jobs at a wage US citizens are unwilling to do it at, and when the rich are able to get people to work for them at a wage that underbids legal citizens, this gives the rich more profit thus increasing their income at the expense of the poor.

Am I missing something here?

Ken

The gap between rich and poor is not due to illegal immigration. I feel the implemented policies of trickle down economics and deregulation over the last 30 years is the culprit. The pervasive propaganda that immigrants take jobs that no one else will do which drives down wage is a political slant that steers away from the real cause. The financial sector and big business has undue influence on government workings where they seek the highest profit possible with minimal reinvestment. One factor was when the trend from paying CEOs and others at high levels of business became stock performance based; it contributed to the turning of the tide. The loosening of regulations in the banking sector with their investments was another factor. There's more money to be made moving money around than actually producing a product for consumption that entails labor costs. Uneven taxation due to loopholes and overseas accounts to hide profits all fit into the current economic scheme. Illegal immigration is the very least of our worries in the overall economic picture.
There are a lot of issues that drive down wages, but you can"t deny when you have one group willing to do a job at a wage the majority are unwilling, and the jobs goes to the lowest bidder, that will drive down the wages for those jobs.

Ken

Some jobs in the farming sector yes. But think about jobs in general in the US. Most require at the very least a high school education and command of the English language; out of reach for the illegal immigrant. Also look at business in general, for example, a business that has 300 employees, mostly desk jobs. How many illegal immigrant custodians would that business need to hire to clean the building? The number ratios don't gel to have a significant effect. Also take into account most businesses of any size contract out cleaning services with clauses that all employees need to be legal to ensure they are not culpable in breaking laws. I really think the media and politics has skewed public thinking. Most are looking at the wrong end of the economy. Now place this nugget in the brain. Who owns the media and who benefits from casting blame away from the real cause?
What about the Construction industry? What about maid service, or yard maintenance? Are you telling me those wages have not been driven down?

Ken

Ken, you can stick your head in the sand if you like. But really take a look at the whole picture. You make it seem that illegal immigration is crashing the economy and significantly pushing down wages, it is not.
I never said that. I said the very people who have a problem with income inequality and low wages have no problem with illegal immigration, yet they are connected.

Ken
ColeTrain
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4/29/2016 12:39:52 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/24/2016 2:19:53 PM, ken1122 wrote:
Democrats are usually okay with allowing illegal aliens from Mexico to come over the southern border of the US. But then they have a problem with wages being too low, and the gap between the rich and poor getting larger and larger.

You're partly right. Sure, the influx of immigrants at a relatively similar skill level heightens competition, and that allows companies to drop wages. More people will work for less. They have plenty of willing job-seekers who will settle for employment even if the wage is low. In that sense, it's definitely true that wages can (and do) drop. It's not necessarily true that US citizens *won't* do it, but that they generally seek higher level jobs because they are not finding employment out of necessity, at least to the degree at which most immigrants do. The literature on the topic is mixed, but there's plenty in line with economic theory that suggests this (dropping wages) to be true.

CReAM finds without complete elasticity of capital, immigration (especially in large portions) is certain to affect the labor market. [http://www.ucl.ac.uk...] We can be sure, then, that it *will* affect the labor market in some capacity. The findings they show is that disparity in skill composition relative to natives will adjust wages (presumably down, since most immigrants are of low skill).

Orrenius and Zavodny likewise find the effects are largely contingent on skills of the immigrants relative to natives. Their study is indicative that the potential threat to natives is normatively on the lower end of the spectrum in regards to skill level -- "blue collar" jobs. [http://ftp.iza.org...] This is congruent with nearly all other studies. An added refinement of the study is that the longer low-skilled immigrants stay in the US, the correlation to native displacement likewise increases. They explain that as these immigrants begin to assimilate into the culture, they become more of a threat to native jobs.

The USCCR briefing noted the disproportionate effect on black workers, claiming the effect was "modest to significant." [https://www.law.umaryland.edu...] This piece is particularly interesting, because it aligns to your question in the OP. It seems a double standard if progressives claim they want to mitigate income inequality, especially towards minority groups. So, by disproportionately disadvantaging blacks from other natives does not help in meeting that goal.

Borjas' timeless study on the issue is relevant, too. Though it's been contested by Card, Borjas has defended his study while criticizing Card for not "digging deep enough" to entirely isolate the data and *prove* the causation. It's not fair to take everything at face value, but the claim seems to have more credence because of a similar issue with the Card/Krueger study on the minimum wage; where the data focused on singular occupational results. That's another issue for another time, but in short, Card's study isn't complete, and misses the mark for the complexity of the issue.

Am I missing something here?

No, you're not really missing anything, but the issue is a little more complex than you're making it out to be. Similar to Card, you're missing a few things. ;) I'll break it down fairly simply so it's easier to understand:

(1) Immigration isn't inherently *bad* for the economy. While wage growth is a respectable method of measuring how successful an economy is, it's not everything. I think it's reasonably clear based on simple economic theory, a basic understanding of the US economy and its elasticity, and the literature on the subject that wages are driven down, at least for low-skilled workers, when there is an influx of immigration. Yet, this doesn't mean we should reject immigration all together. By adding more people to the workforce, companies become more productive and there is more consumers to buy goods. These things benefit the economy, and it's nonsensical to deny that. The question is whether it's a net positive to the economy for consumerism and productivity to outweigh wage stagnation. In general, I would agree it's better to allow the overall economy to benefit rather than focusing on wages itself. While it's more healthy for wages to rise naturally rather than federal mandates (i.e. the minimum wage), it's not as big of an issue if productivity and consumerism rise. It allows companies to grow and eventually raise wages as well. Besides, if we implemented the EITC alongside the current minimum wage, we can mitigate the concerns of naturally low wages. For more on that: [http://www.debate.org...] Regardless, what this means is a little tricky. We don't want *too* much immigration, because *too* low of wages is a bad thing. But, a nice balance with restricted immigration allows us to have the benefits without too much harm.

(2) Immigration needs to be legally restricted. Liberals and progressives highly criticism this view, but, in my opinion, some of their criticism is undue and misguided. Restricting immigration is VERY different from prohibiting it. It's about finding a balance that actualizes the benefits immigration can provide while skirting the potential harms of wage stagnation and occupational displacement as best as possible. We can use plenty of legitimate legal measures to do so. That way, the benefits it provides to the economy are purely positive, without the attachment of illegality and infraction of the law.

(3) The "double standard" of Democrats. Sure, it's a double standard to some extent - too much low-skill immigration can exacerbate income inequality, but it doesn't come without benefit. The position they hold is antithetical to partial reality, but in full it's not a position that severely hurts the economy. Personally, I normatively see income inequality as a non-factor to what plagues the US. It's not inherently bad to earn less than someone else, it is subjective to what happens DUE to those circumstances. That's another issue, though. I think the OP is targeted more to immigration.

Ken

Hope this helps out some! :) - ColeTrain
"The right to 360 noscope noobs shall not be infringed!!!" -- tajshar2k
"So, to start off, I've never committed suicide." -- Vaarka
"I eat glue." -- brontoraptor
"I mean, at this rate, I'd argue for a ham sandwich presidency." -- ResponsiblyIrresponsible
"Overthrow Assad, heil jihad." -- 16kadams when trolling in hangout
"Hillary Clinton is not my favorite person ... and her campaign is as inspiring as a bowl of cottage cheese." -- YYW
ColeTrain
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4/29/2016 12:47:26 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/24/2016 4:28:01 PM, Peepette wrote:
At 4/24/2016 4:07:50 PM, ken1122 wrote:
At 4/24/2016 3:48:50 PM, Peepette wrote:
At 4/24/2016 2:56:02 PM, ken1122 wrote:
At 4/24/2016 2:45:38 PM, Peepette wrote:
At 4/24/2016 2:19:53 PM, ken1122 wrote:
Democrats are usually okay with allowing illegal aliens from Mexico to come over the southern border of the US. But then they have a problem with wages being too low, and the gap between the rich and poor getting larger and larger. But they don"t seem to see how these issues are related. When the poor from Mexico come over illegally they help drive down wages in the US by doing jobs at a wage US citizens are unwilling to do it at, and when the rich are able to get people to work for them at a wage that underbids legal citizens, this gives the rich more profit thus increasing their income at the expense of the poor.

Am I missing something here?

Ken

The gap between rich and poor is not due to illegal immigration. I feel the implemented policies of trickle down economics and deregulation over the last 30 years is the culprit. The pervasive propaganda that immigrants take jobs that no one else will do which drives down wage is a political slant that steers away from the real cause. The financial sector and big business has undue influence on government workings where they seek the highest profit possible with minimal reinvestment. One factor was when the trend from paying CEOs and others at high levels of business became stock performance based; it contributed to the turning of the tide. The loosening of regulations in the banking sector with their investments was another factor. There's more money to be made moving money around than actually producing a product for consumption that entails labor costs. Uneven taxation due to loopholes and overseas accounts to hide profits all fit into the current economic scheme. Illegal immigration is the very least of our worries in the overall economic picture.
There are a lot of issues that drive down wages, but you can"t deny when you have one group willing to do a job at a wage the majority are unwilling, and the jobs goes to the lowest bidder, that will drive down the wages for those jobs.

Ken

Some jobs in the farming sector yes. But think about jobs in general in the US. Most require at the very least a high school education and command of the English language; out of reach for the illegal immigrant. Also look at business in general, for example, a business that has 300 employees, mostly desk jobs. How many illegal immigrant custodians would that business need to hire to clean the building? The number ratios don't gel to have a significant effect. Also take into account most businesses of any size contract out cleaning services with clauses that all employees need to be legal to ensure they are not culpable in breaking laws. I really think the media and politics has skewed public thinking. Most are looking at the wrong end of the economy. Now place this nugget in the brain. Who owns the media and who benefits from casting blame away from the real cause?
What about the Construction industry? What about maid service, or yard maintenance? Are you telling me those wages have not been driven down?

Ken

Ken, you can stick your head in the sand if you like. But really take a look at the whole picture. You make it seem that illegal immigration is crashing the economy and significantly pushing down wages, it is not.

It's not putting your head in the sand -- it's accepting reality. Economic theory is clear and consistent with most literature (not thinktanks, lol) that shows large-scale immigration can drive down wages. The thinktanks you cite to support you don't give much credence to your case. The WSJ article isn't talking about immigration, specifically, but rather how normative wage adjustment is a way to measure of US health. That's true, but see my response to Ken for more on that.

http://www.epi.org...
http://www.epi.org...
http://blogs.wsj.com...
"The right to 360 noscope noobs shall not be infringed!!!" -- tajshar2k
"So, to start off, I've never committed suicide." -- Vaarka
"I eat glue." -- brontoraptor
"I mean, at this rate, I'd argue for a ham sandwich presidency." -- ResponsiblyIrresponsible
"Overthrow Assad, heil jihad." -- 16kadams when trolling in hangout
"Hillary Clinton is not my favorite person ... and her campaign is as inspiring as a bowl of cottage cheese." -- YYW
ColeTrain
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4/29/2016 12:52:17 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/24/2016 2:45:38 PM, Peepette wrote:
The gap between rich and poor is not due to illegal immigration.

Only in part. There are numerous factors, but it's not intellectually honest to say illegal immigration is a partial reason.

I feel the implemented policies of trickle down economics and deregulation over the last 30 years is the culprit. The pervasive propaganda that immigrants take jobs that no one else will do which drives down wage is a political slant that steers away from the real cause.

First of all, supply-side economics isn't supposed to achieve equality. It's equipped to focus on supply rather than egalitarian measures. It's not anymore of a political slant than progressive accusations of discrimination and such. The real cause of income inequality is varied, but it'd doesn't exclude immigration. For more on that: [http://www.debate.org...]

The financial sector and big business has undue influence on government workings where they seek the highest profit possible with minimal reinvestment. One factor was when the trend from paying CEOs and others at high levels of business became stock performance based; it contributed to the turning of the tide. The loosening of regulations in the banking sector with their investments was another factor. There's more money to be made moving money around than actually producing a product for consumption that entails labor costs. Uneven taxation due to loopholes and overseas accounts to hide profits all fit into the current economic scheme.

This is somewhat true. I encourage you read the the post I linked above. It provides a clearer picture of my views, and what my response to this would be.

Illegal immigration is the very least of our worries in the overall economic picture.

kfc
"The right to 360 noscope noobs shall not be infringed!!!" -- tajshar2k
"So, to start off, I've never committed suicide." -- Vaarka
"I eat glue." -- brontoraptor
"I mean, at this rate, I'd argue for a ham sandwich presidency." -- ResponsiblyIrresponsible
"Overthrow Assad, heil jihad." -- 16kadams when trolling in hangout
"Hillary Clinton is not my favorite person ... and her campaign is as inspiring as a bowl of cottage cheese." -- YYW
Peepette
Posts: 1,242
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4/29/2016 1:08:46 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/29/2016 12:47:26 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 4/24/2016 4:28:01 PM, Peepette wrote:
At 4/24/2016 4:07:50 PM, ken1122 wrote:
At 4/24/2016 3:48:50 PM, Peepette wrote:
At 4/24/2016 2:56:02 PM, ken1122 wrote:
At 4/24/2016 2:45:38 PM, Peepette wrote:
At 4/24/2016 2:19:53 PM, ken1122 wrote:
Democrats are usually okay with allowing illegal aliens from Mexico to come over the southern border of the US. But then they have a problem with wages being too low, and the gap between the rich and poor getting larger and larger. But they don"t seem to see how these issues are related. When the poor from Mexico come over illegally they help drive down wages in the US by doing jobs at a wage US citizens are unwilling to do it at, and when the rich are able to get people to work for them at a wage that underbids legal citizens, this gives the rich more profit thus increasing their income at the expense of the poor.

Am I missing something here?

Ken

The gap between rich and poor is not due to illegal immigration. I feel the implemented policies of trickle down economics and deregulation over the last 30 years is the culprit. The pervasive propaganda that immigrants take jobs that no one else will do which drives down wage is a political slant that steers away from the real cause. The financial sector and big business has undue influence on government workings where they seek the highest profit possible with minimal reinvestment. One factor was when the trend from paying CEOs and others at high levels of business became stock performance based; it contributed to the turning of the tide. The loosening of regulations in the banking sector with their investments was another factor. There's more money to be made moving money around than actually producing a product for consumption that entails labor costs. Uneven taxation due to loopholes and overseas accounts to hide profits all fit into the current economic scheme. Illegal immigration is the very least of our worries in the overall economic picture.
There are a lot of issues that drive down wages, but you can"t deny when you have one group willing to do a job at a wage the majority are unwilling, and the jobs goes to the lowest bidder, that will drive down the wages for those jobs.

Ken

Some jobs in the farming sector yes. But think about jobs in general in the US. Most require at the very least a high school education and command of the English language; out of reach for the illegal immigrant. Also look at business in general, for example, a business that has 300 employees, mostly desk jobs. How many illegal immigrant custodians would that business need to hire to clean the building? The number ratios don't gel to have a significant effect. Also take into account most businesses of any size contract out cleaning services with clauses that all employees need to be legal to ensure they are not culpable in breaking laws. I really think the media and politics has skewed public thinking. Most are looking at the wrong end of the economy. Now place this nugget in the brain. Who owns the media and who benefits from casting blame away from the real cause?
What about the Construction industry? What about maid service, or yard maintenance? Are you telling me those wages have not been driven down?

Ken

Ken, you can stick your head in the sand if you like. But really take a look at the whole picture. You make it seem that illegal immigration is crashing the economy and significantly pushing down wages, it is not.

It's not putting your head in the sand -- it's accepting reality. Economic theory is clear and consistent with most literature (not thinktanks, lol) that shows large-scale immigration can drive down wages. The thinktanks you cite to support you don't give much credence to your case. The WSJ article isn't talking about immigration, specifically, but rather how normative wage adjustment is a way to measure of US health. That's true, but see my response to Ken for more on that.

http://www.epi.org...
http://www.epi.org...
http://blogs.wsj.com...

Thanks, the information it was highly informative and made a lot of sense regarding limiting immigration to maintain a positive economic balance. I'm not an expert by a long shot on economics. My point was immigration is not the sole factor in the downward trend in wages, there are several factors that need to be considered; especially when looking at the trend over the last few decades. You though, articulated it best within the immigration construct.
ColeTrain
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4/29/2016 1:35:09 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/29/2016 1:08:46 AM, Peepette wrote:
Thanks, the information it was highly informative and made a lot of sense regarding limiting immigration to maintain a positive economic balance. I'm not an expert by a long shot on economics. My point was immigration is not the sole factor in the downward trend in wages, there are several factors that need to be considered; especially when looking at the trend over the last few decades. You though, articulated it best within the immigration construct.

Hey, no problem! It's good to see that people read my posts and enjoy them, lol. :) I'm glad it helped give some insight as well. Yeah, that's definitely sensible. It just almost sounded like you were saying immigration had NO impact whatsoever. Thanks! That means a lot. :)
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