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Why Garbagemen Should Earn More Than Bankers

Hayd
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4/25/2016 3:19:33 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
http://evonomics.com...

tl;dr
Garbageman go on a strike in New York and a state of emergency is declared, we cannot live without people such as garbageman. We can live without bankers though, for example in Ireland 85% of the country's reserves locked down due to a strike and all the economists thought the economy was going to crash, but nothing happened; the economy has continued to grow.

Shouldn't payroll reflect the value of the work?
Peepette
Posts: 1,238
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4/25/2016 3:27:09 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/25/2016 3:19:33 PM, Hayd wrote:
http://evonomics.com...

tl;dr
Garbageman go on a strike in New York and a state of emergency is declared, we cannot live without people such as garbageman. We can live without bankers though, for example in Ireland 85% of the country's reserves locked down due to a strike and all the economists thought the economy was going to crash, but nothing happened; the economy has continued to grow.

Shouldn't payroll reflect the value of the work?

Very much agree with you. Garbage collectors are under valued. If they did not provide the service we would be over run with rats and disease. There value is akin to a doctors as far as public health is concerned.
Hayd
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4/25/2016 3:30:07 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/25/2016 3:27:09 PM, Peepette wrote:
At 4/25/2016 3:19:33 PM, Hayd wrote:
http://evonomics.com...

tl;dr
Garbageman go on a strike in New York and a state of emergency is declared, we cannot live without people such as garbageman. We can live without bankers though, for example in Ireland 85% of the country's reserves locked down due to a strike and all the economists thought the economy was going to crash, but nothing happened; the economy has continued to grow.

Shouldn't payroll reflect the value of the work?

Very much agree with you. Garbage collectors are under valued. If they did not provide the service we would be over run with rats and disease. There value is akin to a doctors as far as public health is concerned.

Definately, at the end of the article they talk about how much the garbagemen are valued in new york now, they can make about 70,000 in salary now
Peepette
Posts: 1,238
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4/25/2016 3:33:34 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/25/2016 3:30:07 PM, Hayd wrote:
At 4/25/2016 3:27:09 PM, Peepette wrote:
At 4/25/2016 3:19:33 PM, Hayd wrote:
http://evonomics.com...

tl;dr
Garbageman go on a strike in New York and a state of emergency is declared, we cannot live without people such as garbageman. We can live without bankers though, for example in Ireland 85% of the country's reserves locked down due to a strike and all the economists thought the economy was going to crash, but nothing happened; the economy has continued to grow.

Shouldn't payroll reflect the value of the work?

Very much agree with you. Garbage collectors are under valued. If they did not provide the service we would be over run with rats and disease. There value is akin to a doctors as far as public health is concerned.

Definately, at the end of the article they talk about how much the garbagemen are valued in new york now, they can make about 70,000 in salary now

That sounds like a reasonable salary, but in NY city that does not go far. Hope the bennies are good. It's certainly better than what most municipalities pay.
bhakun
Posts: 231
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4/26/2016 2:07:48 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
Good article.

People love to justify CEOs making 300x the pay of his/her average employee by saying, "Oh, it's because they contribute so much more so to society!" First off, thats just wrong.

Second off, that argument flips when they talk about stock traders and bankers. What the hell do they contribute to society?

Garbageman, teachers, firefighters, janitors, and many others are paid well below the value they bring to everyone else.
"We must rapidly begin the shift from a "thing-oriented" society to a "person-oriented" society. When machines and computers, profit motives and property rights are considered more important than people, the giant triplets of racism, materialism, and militarism are incapable of being conquered." -MLK Jr
ColeTrain
Posts: 4,313
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4/26/2016 3:58:59 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/25/2016 3:19:33 PM, Hayd wrote:
Shouldn't payroll reflect the value of the work?

Don't have time to read the article at the moment, but you're correct. Payroll should reflect the value of the work. That is also why minimum wage jobs pay a minimum wage, but that's another issue entirely. I plan on responding more directly and substantively when I have time to read the article. But as a general principle, I think we share the same idea.

This is somewhat related, and I'd like some feedback if you don't mind: [http://www.debate.org...]
"The right to 360 noscope noobs shall not be infringed!!!" -- tajshar2k
"So, to start off, I've never committed suicide." -- Vaarka
"I eat glue." -- brontoraptor
"I mean, at this rate, I'd argue for a ham sandwich presidency." -- ResponsiblyIrresponsible
"Overthrow Assad, heil jihad." -- 16kadams when trolling in hangout
"Hillary Clinton is not my favorite person ... and her campaign is as inspiring as a bowl of cottage cheese." -- YYW
Chang29
Posts: 732
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4/27/2016 1:28:33 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/25/2016 3:19:33 PM, Hayd wrote:
http://evonomics.com...

tl;dr
Garbageman go on a strike in New York and a state of emergency is declared, we cannot live without people such as garbageman. We can live without bankers though, for example in Ireland 85% of the country's reserves locked down due to a strike and all the economists thought the economy was going to crash, but nothing happened; the economy has continued to grow.

Shouldn't payroll reflect the value of the work?

Interesting article, that clearly demonstrates symptoms of problems caused by fiat currency, money without scarcity. Every problem the article talks about would be corrected with decentralized currency and/or sound money.

The financial sector's income is greatly generated by being a first user of newly created central bank currency. While co-conspirators in education maintain fear of sound money and currency competition at high levels. These two groups ensure that fiat currency will continue to funnel wealth into less valued endeavors.

In the garbage example, defiantly show why government should not be depended on for basic services. With the amount of useful stuff in a person's trash, most people should receive money for their trash.

Personal Liberty, and sound money are will reward those that serve their fellow man in the most valued way. Separation of economy and state.

A garbage man that is paid $70,000 per year!?! Now, that is overpaid, that job should be a part time entry level job that a person does until other skills are acquired.
A free market anti-capitalist

If it can be de-centralized, it will be de-centralized.
ColeTrain
Posts: 4,313
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4/28/2016 11:22:40 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/25/2016 3:19:33 PM, Hayd wrote:
http://evonomics.com...

tl;dr
Garbageman go on a strike in New York and a state of emergency is declared, we cannot live without people such as garbageman. We can live without bankers though, for example in Ireland 85% of the country's reserves locked down due to a strike and all the economists thought the economy was going to crash, but nothing happened; the economy has continued to grow.

It's a fairly interesting article, but it makes some assumptions that are a little odd.

Shouldn't payroll reflect the value of the work?

In general, as I responded earlier, this question pleas the affirmative: payroll *should* reflect the value of work, and that's correct. However, there are some things in terms of how much someone/something is *worth* to society that throws a wrench in the general idea you've proposed. Some people are paid much higher for the competition of their work (i.e. athletes, celebrities, etc.). While these people's payrolls are off the charts, their work still isn't valued as much to society as teachers, doctors, etc. Sure, they provide entertainment, but that is their sole purpose while teachers and doctors are pivotal to a functioning society.

As I'm sure you know, teachers are paid very low wages in comparison to most other jobs, but they are as necessary as almost any other profession. I think the general consensus of people would agree teachers need to be paid more. The point I'm driving at, if it isn't clear, is that in some professions, the idea is applicable. But, in other areas (particularly the entertainment side), it's nonsensical to think there should be more of an equilibrium. This would mean the value of work isn't always tied to what they provide for society. That said, the author isn't taking into account what is possible within the realm of reason.

That's *not* to say this is the way it *should* be, but only that that's the way it is, and it won't change anytime soon. People will continue to be grossly overpaid for nearly meaningless jobs and others will continue to be severely underpaid.
"The right to 360 noscope noobs shall not be infringed!!!" -- tajshar2k
"So, to start off, I've never committed suicide." -- Vaarka
"I eat glue." -- brontoraptor
"I mean, at this rate, I'd argue for a ham sandwich presidency." -- ResponsiblyIrresponsible
"Overthrow Assad, heil jihad." -- 16kadams when trolling in hangout
"Hillary Clinton is not my favorite person ... and her campaign is as inspiring as a bowl of cottage cheese." -- YYW
Peepette
Posts: 1,238
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4/28/2016 11:59:35 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/27/2016 1:28:33 AM, Chang29 wrote:
At 4/25/2016 3:19:33 PM, Hayd wrote:
http://evonomics.com...

tl;dr
Garbageman go on a strike in New York and a state of emergency is declared, we cannot live without people such as garbageman. We can live without bankers though, for example in Ireland 85% of the country's reserves locked down due to a strike and all the economists thought the economy was going to crash, but nothing happened; the economy has continued to grow.

Shouldn't payroll reflect the value of the work?

Interesting article, that clearly demonstrates symptoms of problems caused by fiat currency, money without scarcity. Every problem the article talks about would be corrected with decentralized currency and/or sound money.

The financial sector's income is greatly generated by being a first user of newly created central bank currency. While co-conspirators in education maintain fear of sound money and currency competition at high levels. These two groups ensure that fiat currency will continue to funnel wealth into less valued endeavors.

In the garbage example, defiantly show why government should not be depended on for basic services. With the amount of useful stuff in a person's trash, most people should receive money for their trash.

Personal Liberty, and sound money are will reward those that serve their fellow man in the most valued way. Separation of economy and state.

A garbage man that is paid $70,000 per year!?! Now, that is overpaid, that job should be a part time entry level job that a person does until other skills are acquired.

Garbage collection is a very physically demanding and filthy job that needs to be done with efficiency. It is done for public sanitation and health. A 70k salary in NYC is hardly overpayment when cost of living is considered.

Here's and example when services get contracted out that were once done by military government personnel. https://www.youtube.com...
http://rense.com...
Peepette
Posts: 1,238
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4/29/2016 12:19:47 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/28/2016 11:22:40 PM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 4/25/2016 3:19:33 PM, Hayd wrote:
http://evonomics.com...

tl;dr
Garbageman go on a strike in New York and a state of emergency is declared, we cannot live without people such as garbageman. We can live without bankers though, for example in Ireland 85% of the country's reserves locked down due to a strike and all the economists thought the economy was going to crash, but nothing happened; the economy has continued to grow.

It's a fairly interesting article, but it makes some assumptions that are a little odd.

Shouldn't payroll reflect the value of the work?

In general, as I responded earlier, this question pleas the affirmative: payroll *should* reflect the value of work, and that's correct. However, there are some things in terms of how much someone/something is *worth* to society that throws a wrench in the general idea you've proposed. Some people are paid much higher for the competition of their work (i.e. athletes, celebrities, etc.). While these people's payrolls are off the charts, their work still isn't valued as much to society as teachers, doctors, etc. Sure, they provide entertainment, but that is their sole purpose while teachers and doctors are pivotal to a functioning society.

As I'm sure you know, teachers are paid very low wages in comparison to most other jobs, but they are as necessary as almost any other profession. I think the general consensus of people would agree teachers need to be paid more.

Agreed, but politicians and media like to demonize teachers. At the local level education is 60-70% of the total budget so it's cost and end product justification always needs to be made. Placing blame on teachers and outcomes justifies cuts. When in fact, outcomes are prescribed at the state and fed level, written by educational book publishers and test makers. No real credentialed experts in actual teaching is a part of the process.

The point I'm driving at, if it isn't clear, is that in some professions, the idea is applicable. But, in other areas (particularly the entertainment side), it's nonsensical to think there should be more of an equilibrium. This would mean the value of work isn't always tied to what they provide for society. That said, the author isn't taking into account what is possible within the realm of reason.

Public servants as a whole, fire personnel, police, sanitation and the like earn middle class incomes. Some get shafted in the end. In several towns in my state and neighboring state, pension payments have been cut in half. Towns and cities never fully funded them. When strapped for cash went for the pensions. A friend, 35 years a fireman had his pension cut and now has to work 30hrs at week to supplement his retirement income. How many properties and lives did this man save over 35 years? Tax payers hate to pay higher taxes and are short sighted on the value and outcomes of public services provided.

That's *not* to say this is the way it *should* be, but only that that's the way it is, and it won't change anytime soon. People will continue to be grossly overpaid for nearly meaningless jobs and others will continue to be severely underpaid.
ColeTrain
Posts: 4,313
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4/29/2016 12:58:52 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/29/2016 12:19:47 AM, Peepette wrote:
At 4/28/2016 11:22:40 PM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 4/25/2016 3:19:33 PM, Hayd wrote:
http://evonomics.com...

tl;dr
Garbageman go on a strike in New York and a state of emergency is declared, we cannot live without people such as garbageman. We can live without bankers though, for example in Ireland 85% of the country's reserves locked down due to a strike and all the economists thought the economy was going to crash, but nothing happened; the economy has continued to grow.

It's a fairly interesting article, but it makes some assumptions that are a little odd.

Shouldn't payroll reflect the value of the work?

In general, as I responded earlier, this question pleas the affirmative: payroll *should* reflect the value of work, and that's correct. However, there are some things in terms of how much someone/something is *worth* to society that throws a wrench in the general idea you've proposed. Some people are paid much higher for the competition of their work (i.e. athletes, celebrities, etc.). While these people's payrolls are off the charts, their work still isn't valued as much to society as teachers, doctors, etc. Sure, they provide entertainment, but that is their sole purpose while teachers and doctors are pivotal to a functioning society.

As I'm sure you know, teachers are paid very low wages in comparison to most other jobs, but they are as necessary as almost any other profession. I think the general consensus of people would agree teachers need to be paid more.

Agreed, but politicians and media like to demonize teachers. At the local level education is 60-70% of the total budget so it's cost and end product justification always needs to be made. Placing blame on teachers and outcomes justifies cuts. When in fact, outcomes are prescribed at the state and fed level, written by educational book publishers and test makers. No real credentialed experts in actual teaching is a part of the process.

That makes sense. Bad teachers actualize the criticism, but there is still not legitimate justification to attack them -- which I think you agree.

The point I'm driving at, if it isn't clear, is that in some professions, the idea is applicable. But, in other areas (particularly the entertainment side), it's nonsensical to think there should be more of an equilibrium. This would mean the value of work isn't always tied to what they provide for society. That said, the author isn't taking into account what is possible within the realm of reason.

Public servants as a whole, fire personnel, police, sanitation and the like earn middle class incomes. Some get shafted in the end. In several towns in my state and neighboring state, pension payments have been cut in half. Towns and cities never fully funded them. When strapped for cash went for the pensions. A friend, 35 years a fireman had his pension cut and now has to work 30hrs at week to supplement his retirement income. How many properties and lives did this man save over 35 years? Tax payers hate to pay higher taxes and are short sighted on the value and outcomes of public services provided.

The issue is, taxes should be more allocated to these things that are necessary rather than excessive military spending and government spending in general. Raising taxes still doesn't ensure these areas get proper attention, so it only allows more government misallocation of funds to raise taxes outright.

That's *not* to say this is the way it *should* be, but only that that's the way it is, and it won't change anytime soon. People will continue to be grossly overpaid for nearly meaningless jobs and others will continue to be severely underpaid.
"The right to 360 noscope noobs shall not be infringed!!!" -- tajshar2k
"So, to start off, I've never committed suicide." -- Vaarka
"I eat glue." -- brontoraptor
"I mean, at this rate, I'd argue for a ham sandwich presidency." -- ResponsiblyIrresponsible
"Overthrow Assad, heil jihad." -- 16kadams when trolling in hangout
"Hillary Clinton is not my favorite person ... and her campaign is as inspiring as a bowl of cottage cheese." -- YYW
Chang29
Posts: 732
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4/29/2016 1:00:48 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/28/2016 11:59:35 PM, Peepette wrote:
At 4/27/2016 1:28:33 AM, Chang29 wrote:
At 4/25/2016 3:19:33 PM, Hayd wrote:
http://evonomics.com...

tl;dr
Garbageman go on a strike in New York and a state of emergency is declared, we cannot live without people such as garbageman. We can live without bankers though, for example in Ireland 85% of the country's reserves locked down due to a strike and all the economists thought the economy was going to crash, but nothing happened; the economy has continued to grow.

Shouldn't payroll reflect the value of the work?

Interesting article, that clearly demonstrates symptoms of problems caused by fiat currency, money without scarcity. Every problem the article talks about would be corrected with decentralized currency and/or sound money.

The financial sector's income is greatly generated by being a first user of newly created central bank currency. While co-conspirators in education maintain fear of sound money and currency competition at high levels. These two groups ensure that fiat currency will continue to funnel wealth into less valued endeavors.

In the garbage example, defiantly show why government should not be depended on for basic services. With the amount of useful stuff in a person's trash, most people should receive money for their trash.

Personal Liberty, and sound money are will reward those that serve their fellow man in the most valued way. Separation of economy and state.

A garbage man that is paid $70,000 per year!?! Now, that is overpaid, that job should be a part time entry level job that a person does until other skills are acquired.



Garbage collection is a very physically demanding and filthy job that needs to be done with efficiency. It is done for public sanitation and health. A 70k salary in NYC is hardly overpayment when cost of living is considered.

Here's and example when services get contracted out that were once done by military government personnel. https://www.youtube.com...
http://rense.com...

Contracting services is not the solution, In many cases problems are made worse. The contracting service works for the government not the end consumer (principle/agent problem). In the video every issue talked about was a direct result of a government official. The chow hours in Iraq were controlled by the military, if the military wanted 24 hour chow facilities KBR's contract would have included it. Commanders had the ability to change hours at any time, whch KBR would have responded with a price. Then government contracting officials would run the idea up the bureaucracy to fund the additional costs.

The solution, as always is a free market. Garbage collection can been done safely by just about anyone, that can place a bag in a truck. Thus an entry level job.
A free market anti-capitalist

If it can be de-centralized, it will be de-centralized.
Peepette
Posts: 1,238
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4/29/2016 1:16:01 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/29/2016 12:58:52 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 4/29/2016 12:19:47 AM, Peepette wrote:
At 4/28/2016 11:22:40 PM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 4/25/2016 3:19:33 PM, Hayd wrote:
http://evonomics.com...

tl;dr
Garbageman go on a strike in New York and a state of emergency is declared, we cannot live without people such as garbageman. We can live without bankers though, for example in Ireland 85% of the country's reserves locked down due to a strike and all the economists thought the economy was going to crash, but nothing happened; the economy has continued to grow.

It's a fairly interesting article, but it makes some assumptions that are a little odd.

Shouldn't payroll reflect the value of the work?

In general, as I responded earlier, this question pleas the affirmative: payroll *should* reflect the value of work, and that's correct. However, there are some things in terms of how much someone/something is *worth* to society that throws a wrench in the general idea you've proposed. Some people are paid much higher for the competition of their work (i.e. athletes, celebrities, etc.). While these people's payrolls are off the charts, their work still isn't valued as much to society as teachers, doctors, etc. Sure, they provide entertainment, but that is their sole purpose while teachers and doctors are pivotal to a functioning society.

As I'm sure you know, teachers are paid very low wages in comparison to most other jobs, but they are as necessary as almost any other profession. I think the general consensus of people would agree teachers need to be paid more.

Agreed, but politicians and media like to demonize teachers. At the local level education is 60-70% of the total budget so it's cost and end product justification always needs to be made. Placing blame on teachers and outcomes justifies cuts. When in fact, outcomes are prescribed at the state and fed level, written by educational book publishers and test makers. No real credentialed experts in actual teaching is a part of the process.

That makes sense. Bad teachers actualize the criticism, but there is still not legitimate justification to attack them -- which I think you agree.

The point I'm driving at, if it isn't clear, is that in some professions, the idea is applicable. But, in other areas (particularly the entertainment side), it's nonsensical to think there should be more of an equilibrium. This would mean the value of work isn't always tied to what they provide for society. That said, the author isn't taking into account what is possible within the realm of reason.

Public servants as a whole, fire personnel, police, sanitation and the like earn middle class incomes. Some get shafted in the end. In several towns in my state and neighboring state, pension payments have been cut in half. Towns and cities never fully funded them. When strapped for cash went for the pensions. A friend, 35 years a fireman had his pension cut and now has to work 30hrs at week to supplement his retirement income. How many properties and lives did this man save over 35 years? Tax payers hate to pay higher taxes and are short sighted on the value and outcomes of public services provided.

The issue is, taxes should be more allocated to these things that are necessary rather than excessive military spending and government spending in general. Raising taxes still doesn't ensure these areas get proper attention, so it only allows more government misallocation of funds to raise taxes outright.

Totally agree, especially with what is occurring with KBG and Halliburton in Iraq. A lot more retraint is required.

That's *not* to say this is the way it *should* be, but only that that's the way it is, and it won't change anytime soon. People will continue to be grossly overpaid for nearly meaningless jobs and others will continue to be severely underpaid.
ColeTrain
Posts: 4,313
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4/29/2016 1:35:57 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/29/2016 1:16:01 AM, Peepette wrote:
The issue is, taxes should be more allocated to these things that are necessary rather than excessive military spending and government spending in general. Raising taxes still doesn't ensure these areas get proper attention, so it only allows more government misallocation of funds to raise taxes outright.

Totally agree, especially with what is occurring with KBG and Halliburton in Iraq. A lot more retraint is required.

Another reason I'm against raising taxes.
"The right to 360 noscope noobs shall not be infringed!!!" -- tajshar2k
"So, to start off, I've never committed suicide." -- Vaarka
"I eat glue." -- brontoraptor
"I mean, at this rate, I'd argue for a ham sandwich presidency." -- ResponsiblyIrresponsible
"Overthrow Assad, heil jihad." -- 16kadams when trolling in hangout
"Hillary Clinton is not my favorite person ... and her campaign is as inspiring as a bowl of cottage cheese." -- YYW
Peepette
Posts: 1,238
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4/29/2016 1:38:20 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/29/2016 1:00:48 AM, Chang29 wrote:
At 4/28/2016 11:59:35 PM, Peepette wrote:
At 4/27/2016 1:28:33 AM, Chang29 wrote:
At 4/25/2016 3:19:33 PM, Hayd wrote:
http://evonomics.com...

tl;dr
Garbageman go on a strike in New York and a state of emergency is declared, we cannot live without people such as garbageman. We can live without bankers though, for example in Ireland 85% of the country's reserves locked down due to a strike and all the economists thought the economy was going to crash, but nothing happened; the economy has continued to grow.

Shouldn't payroll reflect the value of the work?

Interesting article, that clearly demonstrates symptoms of problems caused by fiat currency, money without scarcity. Every problem the article talks about would be corrected with decentralized currency and/or sound money.

The financial sector's income is greatly generated by being a first user of newly created central bank currency. While co-conspirators in education maintain fear of sound money and currency competition at high levels. These two groups ensure that fiat currency will continue to funnel wealth into less valued endeavors.

In the garbage example, defiantly show why government should not be depended on for basic services. With the amount of useful stuff in a person's trash, most people should receive money for their trash.

Personal Liberty, and sound money are will reward those that serve their fellow man in the most valued way. Separation of economy and state.

A garbage man that is paid $70,000 per year!?! Now, that is overpaid, that job should be a part time entry level job that a person does until other skills are acquired.



Garbage collection is a very physically demanding and filthy job that needs to be done with efficiency. It is done for public sanitation and health. A 70k salary in NYC is hardly overpayment when cost of living is considered.

Here's and example when services get contracted out that were once done by military government personnel. https://www.youtube.com...
http://rense.com...

Contracting services is not the solution, In many cases problems are made worse. The contracting service works for the government not the end consumer (principle/agent problem). In the video every issue talked about was a direct result of a government official. The chow hours in Iraq were controlled by the military, if the military wanted 24 hour chow facilities KBR's contract would have included it. Commanders had the ability to change hours at any time, whch KBR would have responded with a price. Then government contracting officials would run the idea up the bureaucracy to fund the additional costs.

I find it ironic that you chose this portion of the video and totally missed the main point regarding cost plus and waste?

The solution, as always is a free market. Garbage collection can been done safely by just about anyone, that can place a bag in a truck. Thus an entry level job.

You can certainly feel that way, I just disagree when it comes to basic public services. Privatisation puts profit making above the interest of the public, which as businesses should do. But not at the expense of the public.

http://www.nccdglobal.org...
http://www.npr.org...
Peepette
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4/29/2016 1:46:29 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/29/2016 1:35:57 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 4/29/2016 1:16:01 AM, Peepette wrote:
The issue is, taxes should be more allocated to these things that are necessary rather than excessive military spending and government spending in general. Raising taxes still doesn't ensure these areas get proper attention, so it only allows more government misallocation of funds to raise taxes outright.

Totally agree, especially with what is occurring with KBG and Halliburton in Iraq. A lot more restraint is required.

Another reason I'm against raising taxes.

At the State and Fed level I would agree, there's too much bloat. At the local level, that's another story. Municipal taxes in some manner have to try to keep pace with inflationary costs which is not occurring. School language, music and art is cut. School sports are now fee based and town pool and other types of public amenities are now chargables that many citizen in the community are left out.
Chang29
Posts: 732
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4/29/2016 10:17:51 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/29/2016 1:38:20 AM, Peepette wrote:
At 4/29/2016 1:00:48 AM, Chang29 wrote:
At 4/28/2016 11:59:35 PM, Peepette wrote:
At 4/27/2016 1:28:33 AM, Chang29 wrote:
At 4/25/2016 3:19:33 PM, Hayd wrote:
http://evonomics.com...

tl;dr
Garbageman go on a strike in New York and a state of emergency is declared, we cannot live without people such as garbageman. We can live without bankers though, for example in Ireland 85% of the country's reserves locked down due to a strike and all the economists thought the economy was going to crash, but nothing happened; the economy has continued to grow.

Shouldn't payroll reflect the value of the work?

Interesting article, that clearly demonstrates symptoms of problems caused by fiat currency, money without scarcity. Every problem the article talks about would be corrected with decentralized currency and/or sound money.

The financial sector's income is greatly generated by being a first user of newly created central bank currency. While co-conspirators in education maintain fear of sound money and currency competition at high levels. These two groups ensure that fiat currency will continue to funnel wealth into less valued endeavors.

In the garbage example, defiantly show why government should not be depended on for basic services. With the amount of useful stuff in a person's trash, most people should receive money for their trash.

Personal Liberty, and sound money are will reward those that serve their fellow man in the most valued way. Separation of economy and state.

A garbage man that is paid $70,000 per year!?! Now, that is overpaid, that job should be a part time entry level job that a person does until other skills are acquired.



Garbage collection is a very physically demanding and filthy job that needs to be done with efficiency. It is done for public sanitation and health. A 70k salary in NYC is hardly overpayment when cost of living is considered.

Here's and example when services get contracted out that were once done by military government personnel. https://www.youtube.com...
http://rense.com...

Contracting services is not the solution, In many cases problems are made worse. The contracting service works for the government not the end consumer (principle/agent problem). In the video every issue talked about was a direct result of a government official. The chow hours in Iraq were controlled by the military, if the military wanted 24 hour chow facilities KBR's contract would have included it. Commanders had the ability to change hours at any time, whch KBR would have responded with a price. Then government contracting officials would run the idea up the bureaucracy to fund the additional costs.

I find it ironic that you chose this portion of the video and totally missed the main point regarding cost plus and waste?

I was there, and viewed the waste. The reasons for the waste were government rules and how contracts are written. Army chow halls are as bad if not worse.


The solution, as always is a free market. Garbage collection can been done safely by just about anyone, that can place a bag in a truck. Thus an entry level job.

You can certainly feel that way, I just disagree when it comes to basic public services. Privatisation puts profit making above the interest of the public, which as businesses should do. But not at the expense of the public.

Garbage collect is not difficult, if any basic service should be completely privatized trash collection should be.


http://www.nccdglobal.org...
http://www.npr.org...

Government and business cooperating is the worst possible solution. Justice and corrections have a legitamate role to be ran by the state, but only for punishment of crimes with victims.

There are some service like justice and corrections that make sense to be provided by a state. Garage collect is not one of them.
A free market anti-capitalist

If it can be de-centralized, it will be de-centralized.
famousdebater
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5/3/2016 7:50:48 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/25/2016 3:19:33 PM, Hayd wrote:
Shouldn't payroll reflect the value of the work?

To an extent. I strongly disagree with the title of the topic though. Garbagemen may be underpaid though I don't think that we should solely view the value of work to reflect payroll.

I believe that in determining payroll we need to look at the hours. The level of education. The ability required (what I mean by this is that virtually anybody is qualified to be a garbageman, whereas bankers must be highly intelligent and qualified).
"Life calls the tune, we dance."
John Galsworthy
bballcrook21
Posts: 4,468
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5/9/2016 1:00:38 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/25/2016 3:19:33 PM, Hayd wrote:
http://evonomics.com...

tl;dr
Garbageman go on a strike in New York and a state of emergency is declared, we cannot live without people such as garbageman. We can live without bankers though, for example in Ireland 85% of the country's reserves locked down due to a strike and all the economists thought the economy was going to crash, but nothing happened; the economy has continued to grow.

Shouldn't payroll reflect the value of the work?

Garbage-men are easily replaced, while bankers are not. It's not the value of their product but the value of their skill in terms of scarcity and efficiency. A banker can do a garbage-man's job but not the opposite, especially when there's essentially no risk involved in pursuing sanitation as a career choice while the opposite would not be true.
If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand. - Friedman

Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. -Friedman

Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program. - Friedman

Society will never be free until the last Democrat is strangled with the entrails of the last Communist.
bballcrook21
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5/9/2016 1:03:31 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/26/2016 3:58:59 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 4/25/2016 3:19:33 PM, Hayd wrote:
Shouldn't payroll reflect the value of the work?

Don't have time to read the article at the moment, but you're correct. Payroll should reflect the value of the work. That is also why minimum wage jobs pay a minimum wage, but that's another issue entirely. I plan on responding more directly and substantively when I have time to read the article. But as a general principle, I think we share the same idea.

This is somewhat related, and I'd like some feedback if you don't mind: [http://www.debate.org...]

That is akin to the labor theory of value. Read my post on it and then come back with a changed opinion. The value of the work is very minuscule, while the value of financing large amounts of capital is not, especially when you are a seasoned and experienced banker and are able to do your job efficiently. There are machines that can replace garbage-men a lot faster than machines could replace bankers.
If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand. - Friedman

Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. -Friedman

Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program. - Friedman

Society will never be free until the last Democrat is strangled with the entrails of the last Communist.
ColeTrain
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5/9/2016 3:39:53 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/9/2016 1:03:31 AM, bballcrook21 wrote:
At 4/26/2016 3:58:59 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 4/25/2016 3:19:33 PM, Hayd wrote:
Shouldn't payroll reflect the value of the work?

Don't have time to read the article at the moment, but you're correct. Payroll should reflect the value of the work. That is also why minimum wage jobs pay a minimum wage, but that's another issue entirely. I plan on responding more directly and substantively when I have time to read the article. But as a general principle, I think we share the same idea.

This is somewhat related, and I'd like some feedback if you don't mind: [http://www.debate.org...]

That is akin to the labor theory of value. Read my post on it and then come back with a changed opinion. The value of the work is very minuscule, while the value of financing large amounts of capital is not, especially when you are a seasoned and experienced banker and are able to do your job efficiently. There are machines that can replace garbage-men a lot faster than machines could replace bankers.

What do you mean?
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BillSPrestonEsq
Posts: 135
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5/10/2016 1:04:38 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/25/2016 3:19:33 PM, Hayd wrote:
http://evonomics.com...

tl;dr
Garbageman go on a strike in New York and a state of emergency is declared, we cannot live without people such as garbageman. We can live without bankers though, for example in Ireland 85% of the country's reserves locked down due to a strike and all the economists thought the economy was going to crash, but nothing happened; the economy has continued to grow.

Shouldn't payroll reflect the value of the work?

If we truly had free markets the value of any labor would be dictated by supply and demand; it depends what you mean by 'bankers' too.
Banks generally make money by loaning money that is in 'on demand' accounts, basically fraud, so yes garbage men should make more money than criminals.
ColeTrain
Posts: 4,313
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5/17/2016 4:28:47 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/10/2016 1:04:38 AM, BillSPrestonEsq wrote:
At 4/25/2016 3:19:33 PM, Hayd wrote:
http://evonomics.com...

tl;dr
Garbageman go on a strike in New York and a state of emergency is declared, we cannot live without people such as garbageman. We can live without bankers though, for example in Ireland 85% of the country's reserves locked down due to a strike and all the economists thought the economy was going to crash, but nothing happened; the economy has continued to grow.

Shouldn't payroll reflect the value of the work?

If we truly had free markets the value of any labor would be dictated by supply and demand; it depends what you mean by 'bankers' too.
Banks generally make money by loaning money that is in 'on demand' accounts, basically fraud, so yes garbage men should make more money than criminals.

I was wondering when pseudo-anarchists would show up ;P
"The right to 360 noscope noobs shall not be infringed!!!" -- tajshar2k
"So, to start off, I've never committed suicide." -- Vaarka
"I eat glue." -- brontoraptor
"I mean, at this rate, I'd argue for a ham sandwich presidency." -- ResponsiblyIrresponsible
"Overthrow Assad, heil jihad." -- 16kadams when trolling in hangout
"Hillary Clinton is not my favorite person ... and her campaign is as inspiring as a bowl of cottage cheese." -- YYW
Chang29
Posts: 732
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5/17/2016 6:22:09 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/10/2016 1:04:38 AM, BillSPrestonEsq wrote:
At 4/25/2016 3:19:33 PM, Hayd wrote:
http://evonomics.com...

tl;dr
Garbageman go on a strike in New York and a state of emergency is declared, we cannot live without people such as garbageman. We can live without bankers though, for example in Ireland 85% of the country's reserves locked down due to a strike and all the economists thought the economy was going to crash, but nothing happened; the economy has continued to grow.

Shouldn't payroll reflect the value of the work?

If we truly had free markets the value of any labor would be dictated by supply and demand; it depends what you mean by 'bankers' too.
Banks generally make money by loaning money that is in 'on demand' accounts, basically fraud, so yes garbage men should make more money than criminals.

Also, include as criminals thier co-conspirators, that is government regulators.
A free market anti-capitalist

If it can be de-centralized, it will be de-centralized.
Rukado
Posts: 527
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5/18/2016 11:13:54 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
We could live without garbageman.

People who own land would just burn their trash in their backyard. People in NY could star using trash apps, and get their neighbor to truck their trash to the dump.

The real problem in NY is the city handles the trash, inviting strikes. If NY privatized its trash service, there would be no more strikes.
Dark-one
Posts: 211
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5/21/2016 12:14:07 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 4/26/2016 2:07:48 AM, bhakun wrote:
Good article.

People love to justify CEOs making 300x the pay of his/her average employee by saying, "Oh, it's because they contribute so much more so to society!" First off, thats just wrong.

Second off, that argument flips when they talk about stock traders and bankers. What the hell do they contribute to society?

Garbageman, teachers, firefighters, janitors, and many others are paid well below the value they bring to everyone else.

People are paid based on the rarity of their skills, and people willing to do the job.
bballcrook21
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5/21/2016 5:11:50 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/21/2016 12:14:07 PM, Dark-one wrote:
At 4/26/2016 2:07:48 AM, bhakun wrote:
Good article.

People love to justify CEOs making 300x the pay of his/her average employee by saying, "Oh, it's because they contribute so much more so to society!" First off, thats just wrong.

Second off, that argument flips when they talk about stock traders and bankers. What the hell do they contribute to society?

Garbageman, teachers, firefighters, janitors, and many others are paid well below the value they bring to everyone else.

People are paid based on the rarity of their skills, and people willing to do the job.

Finally, someone that understands basic supply and demand.
If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand. - Friedman

Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. -Friedman

Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program. - Friedman

Society will never be free until the last Democrat is strangled with the entrails of the last Communist.
harrytruman
Posts: 812
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5/21/2016 9:00:31 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 4/27/2016 1:28:33 AM, Chang29 wrote:
At 4/25/2016 3:19:33 PM, Hayd wrote:
http://evonomics.com...

tl;dr
Garbageman go on a strike in New York and a state of emergency is declared, we cannot live without people such as garbageman. We can live without bankers though, for example in Ireland 85% of the country's reserves locked down due to a strike and all the economists thought the economy was going to crash, but nothing happened; the economy has continued to grow.

Shouldn't payroll reflect the value of the work?

Interesting article, that clearly demonstrates symptoms of problems caused by fiat currency, money without scarcity. Every problem the article talks about would be corrected with decentralized currency and/or sound money.

The financial sector's income is greatly generated by being a first user of newly created central bank currency. While co-conspirators in education maintain fear of sound money and currency competition at high levels. These two groups ensure that fiat currency will continue to funnel wealth into less valued endeavors.

In the garbage example, defiantly show why government should not be depended on for basic services. With the amount of useful stuff in a person's trash, most people should receive money for their trash.

Personal Liberty, and sound money are will reward those that serve their fellow man in the most valued way. Separation of economy and state.

A garbage man that is paid $70,000 per year!?! Now, that is overpaid, that job should be a part time entry level job that a person does until other skills are acquired.

70,000 isn't a lot considering the const of living in New York though.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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5/22/2016 5:36:54 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 4/25/2016 3:19:33 PM, Hayd wrote:
Shouldn't payroll reflect the value of the work?

No. Intangible value is subjective. The monetary value of labor is based on supply and demand.
President of DDO
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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5/22/2016 5:38:43 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/18/2016 11:13:54 PM, Rukado wrote:
The real problem in NY is the city handles the trash, inviting strikes. If NY privatized its trash service, there would be no more strikes.

That's not true. The private sector goes on strike more often (but for less time) than public sector employees.

http://www.conservativehome.com...
President of DDO