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Minimum Wage Kills Jobs

FactsVsFeelings
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8/10/2016 3:40:27 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
Labor, like any other commodity, should be competed for. The free market economy thrives on competition and freedom. When government begins to try and regulate prices that is when issues begin to appear. This can be seen greatly in the Minimum Wage.
Admittedly the idea behind the minimum wage is a kind one. The evil employers trying to keep costs down stiff their employees by not paying them enough! Therefore, we ought to force employers to pay a set amount. This is an innocent idea, on the surface at least, and it works. It works wonderfully..to buy votes.
The Left loves the minimum wage. Not because it"s a good idea, even the Left can acknowledge the facts of the minim wage. It doesn"t matter to them, the Left thrives on pandering above all things. They spin themselves as the ones who truly care and the ones who will take care of you. What they leave out is that to do this they will increase spending, make government bigger, and ultimately take away your freedoms.
On the Right we, for the most part, know that the government is terrible at everything. The government is especially bad when it comes to government enforced price controls. At the heart of it that is all minimum wage is. It is the government placing a price control on the cost of labor. The facts tell us that every time the government attempts a minimum wage, the job market does nothing but suffer. Even the first minimum wage under FDR forced employees out of jobs! Employees that were deemed unworthy for the payroll found themselves out of jobs immediately, and during the height of the depression it certainly didn"t help things.
In the book Economics in One Lesson Henry Hazlitt writes, "You cannot make a man worth a given amount by making it illegal for anyone to offer him anything less. You merely deprive him of the right to earn the amount that his abilities and situation would permit him to earn"" Employers know this, but employers cannot do anything about this when there is a minimum wage.
What happens is that in order to pay everyone this minimum wage employers are forced to do one of three things: raise prices, cut costs, or shrink their profit margins. Costumers are always demanding low prices, and employers, not wanting to go under, cannot cut profits. All that is left is to cut costs and to do this they are forced to cut the number of hours they allow an employee to work.
While an employee may be "worth" a certain amount this means nothing when the employer is forced to not let them work. Employees not wanting to loose government benefits sometimes even demand to work less hours! The big government argument can be had another time, but in essence these employees have married the government and don"t want to be cut off.
This isn"t to say that there is no way to raise wages. There are plenty of ways to raises wages; new inventions and improvements, more efficient management on the part of employers, by better education and training, among others. Instead of focusing on imposing more burdens on employers the government ought to encourage employers to expand. In a free market economy, when there is more freedom in wages there are more jobs and more opportunity.
bballcrook21
Posts: 4,468
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8/10/2016 3:57:29 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/10/2016 3:40:27 PM, FactsVsFeelings wrote:
Labor, like any other commodity, should be competed for. The free market economy thrives on competition and freedom. When government begins to try and regulate prices that is when issues begin to appear. This can be seen greatly in the Minimum Wage.
Admittedly the idea behind the minimum wage is a kind one. The evil employers trying to keep costs down stiff their employees by not paying them enough! Therefore, we ought to force employers to pay a set amount. This is an innocent idea, on the surface at least, and it works. It works wonderfully..to buy votes.
The Left loves the minimum wage. Not because it"s a good idea, even the Left can acknowledge the facts of the minim wage. It doesn"t matter to them, the Left thrives on pandering above all things. They spin themselves as the ones who truly care and the ones who will take care of you. What they leave out is that to do this they will increase spending, make government bigger, and ultimately take away your freedoms.
On the Right we, for the most part, know that the government is terrible at everything. The government is especially bad when it comes to government enforced price controls. At the heart of it that is all minimum wage is. It is the government placing a price control on the cost of labor. The facts tell us that every time the government attempts a minimum wage, the job market does nothing but suffer. Even the first minimum wage under FDR forced employees out of jobs! Employees that were deemed unworthy for the payroll found themselves out of jobs immediately, and during the height of the depression it certainly didn"t help things.
In the book Economics in One Lesson Henry Hazlitt writes, "You cannot make a man worth a given amount by making it illegal for anyone to offer him anything less. You merely deprive him of the right to earn the amount that his abilities and situation would permit him to earn"" Employers know this, but employers cannot do anything about this when there is a minimum wage.
What happens is that in order to pay everyone this minimum wage employers are forced to do one of three things: raise prices, cut costs, or shrink their profit margins. Costumers are always demanding low prices, and employers, not wanting to go under, cannot cut profits. All that is left is to cut costs and to do this they are forced to cut the number of hours they allow an employee to work.
While an employee may be "worth" a certain amount this means nothing when the employer is forced to not let them work. Employees not wanting to loose government benefits sometimes even demand to work less hours! The big government argument can be had another time, but in essence these employees have married the government and don"t want to be cut off.
This isn"t to say that there is no way to raise wages. There are plenty of ways to raises wages; new inventions and improvements, more efficient management on the part of employers, by better education and training, among others. Instead of focusing on imposing more burdens on employers the government ought to encourage employers to expand. In a free market economy, when there is more freedom in wages there are more jobs and more opportunity.

The issue with this is that many leftists believe labor is NOT a commodity, which is downright wrong.
If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand. - Friedman

Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. -Friedman

Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program. - Friedman

Society will never be free until the last Democrat is strangled with the entrails of the last Communist.
AlyceTheElectrician
Posts: 232
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8/10/2016 7:39:23 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
Correct me if I'm wrong but I was always under the impression that the minimum wage was never designed to be a 'living wage' but to be a safeguard against legalized slavery.
Be who you are, Say what you feel, Because those who mind don"t matter, And those who matter don't mind.

BANGTAN! Blood, Sweat, & Tears> Check it out yes! https://www.youtube.com...
FactsVsFeelings
Posts: 9
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8/10/2016 8:48:31 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/10/2016 7:39:23 PM, AlyceTheElectrician wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but I was always under the impression that the minimum wage was never designed to be a 'living wage' but to be a safeguard against legalized slavery.

Wages, in a free market economy, are a product. Like anything else you buy if you don't like the price you are free to go elsewhere. If your competitor is offering higher wages you're going to have to raise your wage or loose workers. When wages are competitive then the workers win. So if you're trying to pay someone so little that it's similar to slavery they'll leave and work for someone else.
bballcrook21
Posts: 4,468
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8/10/2016 9:07:23 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/10/2016 7:39:23 PM, AlyceTheElectrician wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but I was always under the impression that the minimum wage was never designed to be a 'living wage' but to be a safeguard against legalized slavery.

No, it was always meant to be a living wage. A safeguard against legalized slavery is this thing called "the right to life and liberty".
If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand. - Friedman

Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. -Friedman

Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program. - Friedman

Society will never be free until the last Democrat is strangled with the entrails of the last Communist.
AlyceTheElectrician
Posts: 232
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8/10/2016 9:31:38 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/10/2016 8:48:31 PM, FactsVsFeelings wrote:
At 8/10/2016 7:39:23 PM, AlyceTheElectrician wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but I was always under the impression that the minimum wage was never designed to be a 'living wage' but to be a safeguard against legalized slavery.

Wages, in a free market economy, are a product. Like anything else you buy if you don't like the price you are free to go elsewhere. If your competitor is offering higher wages you're going to have to raise your wage or loose workers. When wages are competitive then the workers win. So if you're trying to pay someone so little that it's similar to slavery they'll leave and work for someone else.

Makes sense. competitive wages would prevent employers from trying to get something for nothing.

I accept the concept of no government established minimum wage. I hope America embraces a free market soon.
Be who you are, Say what you feel, Because those who mind don"t matter, And those who matter don't mind.

BANGTAN! Blood, Sweat, & Tears> Check it out yes! https://www.youtube.com...
AlyceTheElectrician
Posts: 232
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8/10/2016 9:38:06 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/10/2016 9:07:23 PM, bballcrook21 wrote:
At 8/10/2016 7:39:23 PM, AlyceTheElectrician wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but I was always under the impression that the minimum wage was never designed to be a 'living wage' but to be a safeguard against legalized slavery.

No, it was always meant to be a living wage. A safeguard against legalized slavery is this thing called "the right to life and liberty".

I always thought of it as a starting off point, not meant for settling on, but I guess it depends.
Be who you are, Say what you feel, Because those who mind don"t matter, And those who matter don't mind.

BANGTAN! Blood, Sweat, & Tears> Check it out yes! https://www.youtube.com...
bballcrook21
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8/10/2016 9:39:00 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/10/2016 9:38:06 PM, AlyceTheElectrician wrote:
At 8/10/2016 9:07:23 PM, bballcrook21 wrote:
At 8/10/2016 7:39:23 PM, AlyceTheElectrician wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but I was always under the impression that the minimum wage was never designed to be a 'living wage' but to be a safeguard against legalized slavery.

No, it was always meant to be a living wage. A safeguard against legalized slavery is this thing called "the right to life and liberty".

I always thought of it as a starting off point, not meant for settling on, but I guess it depends.

Exactly. Min wage is for college students as part time jobs and for high schoolers, not for adults to base a family off of flipping burgers.
If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand. - Friedman

Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. -Friedman

Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program. - Friedman

Society will never be free until the last Democrat is strangled with the entrails of the last Communist.
FactsVsFeelings
Posts: 9
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8/10/2016 10:36:46 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/10/2016 9:39:00 PM, bballcrook21 wrote:
At 8/10/2016 9:38:06 PM, AlyceTheElectrician wrote:
At 8/10/2016 9:07:23 PM, bballcrook21 wrote:
At 8/10/2016 7:39:23 PM, AlyceTheElectrician wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but I was always under the impression that the minimum wage was never designed to be a 'living wage' but to be a safeguard against legalized slavery.

No, it was always meant to be a living wage. A safeguard against legalized slavery is this thing called "the right to life and liberty".

I always thought of it as a starting off point, not meant for settling on, but I guess it depends.

Exactly. Min wage is for college students as part time jobs and for high schoolers, not for adults to base a family off of flipping burgers.

Ironically that's why it hurts the people minimum wage is 'supposed' to help. Finding that first job for a young person is damn near impossible thanks to this. The let's say..25 year olds and up on minimum wage never take risks because they're promised this steady set wage. Closing off the entry level position jobs.
AlyceTheElectrician
Posts: 232
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8/11/2016 12:59:41 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/10/2016 10:36:46 PM, FactsVsFeelings wrote:
At 8/10/2016 9:39:00 PM, bballcrook21 wrote:
At 8/10/2016 9:38:06 PM, AlyceTheElectrician wrote:
At 8/10/2016 9:07:23 PM, bballcrook21 wrote:
At 8/10/2016 7:39:23 PM, AlyceTheElectrician wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but I was always under the impression that the minimum wage was never designed to be a 'living wage' but to be a safeguard against legalized slavery.

No, it was always meant to be a living wage. A safeguard against legalized slavery is this thing called "the right to life and liberty".

I always thought of it as a starting off point, not meant for settling on, but I guess it depends.

Exactly. Min wage is for college students as part time jobs and for high schoolers, not for adults to base a family off of flipping burgers.

Ironically that's why it hurts the people minimum wage is 'supposed' to help. Finding that first job for a young person is damn near impossible thanks to this. The let's say..25 year olds and up on minimum wage never take risks because they're promised this steady set wage. Closing off the entry level position jobs.

I just read somewhere that 16-24 year olds make of half of minimum wage earners. So I guess the other half are unskilled laborers 25 and up. Totally they only make up roughly 3MIL, so there is hope that America can fully convert to free market with no minimum wage mandate without severely affecting a significant portion of the US population.

How long does it usually take to see the benefits of a totally free market with no minimum wage mandate?
Be who you are, Say what you feel, Because those who mind don"t matter, And those who matter don't mind.

BANGTAN! Blood, Sweat, & Tears> Check it out yes! https://www.youtube.com...
FactsVsFeelings
Posts: 9
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8/11/2016 1:09:46 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/11/2016 12:59:41 AM, AlyceTheElectrician wrote:
At 8/10/2016 10:36:46 PM, FactsVsFeelings wrote:
At 8/10/2016 9:39:00 PM, bballcrook21 wrote:
At 8/10/2016 9:38:06 PM, AlyceTheElectrician wrote:
At 8/10/2016 9:07:23 PM, bballcrook21 wrote:
At 8/10/2016 7:39:23 PM, AlyceTheElectrician wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but I was always under the impression that the minimum wage was never designed to be a 'living wage' but to be a safeguard against legalized slavery.

No, it was always meant to be a living wage. A safeguard against legalized slavery is this thing called "the right to life and liberty".

I always thought of it as a starting off point, not meant for settling on, but I guess it depends.

Exactly. Min wage is for college students as part time jobs and for high schoolers, not for adults to base a family off of flipping burgers.

Ironically that's why it hurts the people minimum wage is 'supposed' to help. Finding that first job for a young person is damn near impossible thanks to this. The let's say..25 year olds and up on minimum wage never take risks because they're promised this steady set wage. Closing off the entry level position jobs.

I just read somewhere that 16-24 year olds make of half of minimum wage earners. So I guess the other half are unskilled laborers 25 and up. Totally they only make up roughly 3MIL, so there is hope that America can fully convert to free market with no minimum wage mandate without severely affecting a significant portion of the US population.

How long does it usually take to see the benefits of a totally free market with no minimum wage mandate?

The minimum wage was the second part of FDR's "New Deal" a horrible bundle of Socialist ideas instituted during the great depression. We were free from Government mandated wages before that, and had FDR not meddled in the free market the Depression may have ended much sooner.

Roosevelt actually prolonged the depression by SEVEN YEARS with his new deal. The Free Market goes through ups and downs but ultimately it always heals itself in the end if you don't tamper with it.

I'd argue that if the Minimum wage was abolished today you'd see the affects immediately. Bad at first as wages go down and unemployment rises, but as the Market heals itself wages and unemployment would rise. The industries that would be affected would be the service jobs which currently thrive and make a profit because of minimum wage.
AlyceTheElectrician
Posts: 232
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8/12/2016 3:55:23 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/11/2016 1:09:46 AM, FactsVsFeelings wrote:
At 8/11/2016 12:59:41 AM, AlyceTheElectrician wrote:
At 8/10/2016 10:36:46 PM, FactsVsFeelings wrote:
At 8/10/2016 9:39:00 PM, bballcrook21 wrote:
At 8/10/2016 9:38:06 PM, AlyceTheElectrician wrote:
At 8/10/2016 9:07:23 PM, bballcrook21 wrote:
At 8/10/2016 7:39:23 PM, AlyceTheElectrician wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but I was always under the impression that the minimum wage was never designed to be a 'living wage' but to be a safeguard against legalized slavery.

No, it was always meant to be a living wage. A safeguard against legalized slavery is this thing called "the right to life and liberty".

I always thought of it as a starting off point, not meant for settling on, but I guess it depends.

Exactly. Min wage is for college students as part time jobs and for high schoolers, not for adults to base a family off of flipping burgers.

Ironically that's why it hurts the people minimum wage is 'supposed' to help. Finding that first job for a young person is damn near impossible thanks to this. The let's say..25 year olds and up on minimum wage never take risks because they're promised this steady set wage. Closing off the entry level position jobs.

I just read somewhere that 16-24 year olds make of half of minimum wage earners. So I guess the other half are unskilled laborers 25 and up. Totally they only make up roughly 3MIL, so there is hope that America can fully convert to free market with no minimum wage mandate without severely affecting a significant portion of the US population.

How long does it usually take to see the benefits of a totally free market with no minimum wage mandate?

The minimum wage was the second part of FDR's "New Deal" a horrible bundle of Socialist ideas instituted during the great depression. We were free from Government mandated wages before that, and had FDR not meddled in the free market the Depression may have ended much sooner.

Roosevelt actually prolonged the depression by SEVEN YEARS with his new deal. The Free Market goes through ups and downs but ultimately it always heals itself in the end if you don't tamper with it.

I'd argue that if the Minimum wage was abolished today you'd see the affects immediately. Bad at first as wages go down and unemployment rises, but as the Market heals itself wages and unemployment would rise. The industries that would be affected would be the service jobs which currently thrive and make a profit because of minimum wage.

I would love for America to dump crony capitalism and implement a capitalist free market economy, with no government minimum wage mandate.

But I've hit a road block preventing any government intervention in a free market by the concept of trust.

How can consumers be protected from frauds who sell poor quality or harmful goods by misrepresenting the quality?
How does a free market correct for that?
would law suits remain the main way to settle these things?
Be who you are, Say what you feel, Because those who mind don"t matter, And those who matter don't mind.

BANGTAN! Blood, Sweat, & Tears> Check it out yes! https://www.youtube.com...
slo1
Posts: 4,314
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8/14/2016 1:48:03 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/10/2016 3:57:29 PM, bballcrook21 wrote:
At 8/10/2016 3:40:27 PM, FactsVsFeelings wrote:
Labor, like any other commodity, should be competed for. The free market economy thrives on competition and freedom. When government begins to try and regulate prices that is when issues begin to appear. This can be seen greatly in the Minimum Wage.
Admittedly the idea behind the minimum wage is a kind one. The evil employers trying to keep costs down stiff their employees by not paying them enough! Therefore, we ought to force employers to pay a set amount. This is an innocent idea, on the surface at least, and it works. It works wonderfully..to buy votes.
The Left loves the minimum wage. Not because it"s a good idea, even the Left can acknowledge the facts of the minim wage. It doesn"t matter to them, the Left thrives on pandering above all things. They spin themselves as the ones who truly care and the ones who will take care of you. What they leave out is that to do this they will increase spending, make government bigger, and ultimately take away your freedoms.
On the Right we, for the most part, know that the government is terrible at everything. The government is especially bad when it comes to government enforced price controls. At the heart of it that is all minimum wage is. It is the government placing a price control on the cost of labor. The facts tell us that every time the government attempts a minimum wage, the job market does nothing but suffer. Even the first minimum wage under FDR forced employees out of jobs! Employees that were deemed unworthy for the payroll found themselves out of jobs immediately, and during the height of the depression it certainly didn"t help things.
In the book Economics in One Lesson Henry Hazlitt writes, "You cannot make a man worth a given amount by making it illegal for anyone to offer him anything less. You merely deprive him of the right to earn the amount that his abilities and situation would permit him to earn"" Employers know this, but employers cannot do anything about this when there is a minimum wage.
What happens is that in order to pay everyone this minimum wage employers are forced to do one of three things: raise prices, cut costs, or shrink their profit margins. Costumers are always demanding low prices, and employers, not wanting to go under, cannot cut profits. All that is left is to cut costs and to do this they are forced to cut the number of hours they allow an employee to work.
While an employee may be "worth" a certain amount this means nothing when the employer is forced to not let them work. Employees not wanting to loose government benefits sometimes even demand to work less hours! The big government argument can be had another time, but in essence these employees have married the government and don"t want to be cut off.
This isn"t to say that there is no way to raise wages. There are plenty of ways to raises wages; new inventions and improvements, more efficient management on the part of employers, by better education and training, among others. Instead of focusing on imposing more burdens on employers the government ought to encourage employers to expand. In a free market economy, when there is more freedom in wages there are more jobs and more opportunity.

The issue with this is that many leftists believe labor is NOT a commodity, which is downright wrong.

The term commodity is specifically used for an economic good or service when the demand for it has no qualitative differentiation across a market.[1] In other words, a commodity good or service has full or partial but substantial fungibility; that is, the market treats its instances as equivalent or nearly so with no regard to who produced them.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org...

Labor is extremely differentiated meaning a machine shop specialist can't just walk in and be a nurse. Labor is not a commodity.
bballcrook21
Posts: 4,468
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8/14/2016 4:16:50 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/14/2016 1:48:03 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 8/10/2016 3:57:29 PM, bballcrook21 wrote:
At 8/10/2016 3:40:27 PM, FactsVsFeelings wrote:
Labor, like any other commodity, should be competed for. The free market economy thrives on competition and freedom. When government begins to try and regulate prices that is when issues begin to appear. This can be seen greatly in the Minimum Wage.
Admittedly the idea behind the minimum wage is a kind one. The evil employers trying to keep costs down stiff their employees by not paying them enough! Therefore, we ought to force employers to pay a set amount. This is an innocent idea, on the surface at least, and it works. It works wonderfully..to buy votes.
The Left loves the minimum wage. Not because it"s a good idea, even the Left can acknowledge the facts of the minim wage. It doesn"t matter to them, the Left thrives on pandering above all things. They spin themselves as the ones who truly care and the ones who will take care of you. What they leave out is that to do this they will increase spending, make government bigger, and ultimately take away your freedoms.
On the Right we, for the most part, know that the government is terrible at everything. The government is especially bad when it comes to government enforced price controls. At the heart of it that is all minimum wage is. It is the government placing a price control on the cost of labor. The facts tell us that every time the government attempts a minimum wage, the job market does nothing but suffer. Even the first minimum wage under FDR forced employees out of jobs! Employees that were deemed unworthy for the payroll found themselves out of jobs immediately, and during the height of the depression it certainly didn"t help things.
In the book Economics in One Lesson Henry Hazlitt writes, "You cannot make a man worth a given amount by making it illegal for anyone to offer him anything less. You merely deprive him of the right to earn the amount that his abilities and situation would permit him to earn"" Employers know this, but employers cannot do anything about this when there is a minimum wage.
What happens is that in order to pay everyone this minimum wage employers are forced to do one of three things: raise prices, cut costs, or shrink their profit margins. Costumers are always demanding low prices, and employers, not wanting to go under, cannot cut profits. All that is left is to cut costs and to do this they are forced to cut the number of hours they allow an employee to work.
While an employee may be "worth" a certain amount this means nothing when the employer is forced to not let them work. Employees not wanting to loose government benefits sometimes even demand to work less hours! The big government argument can be had another time, but in essence these employees have married the government and don"t want to be cut off.
This isn"t to say that there is no way to raise wages. There are plenty of ways to raises wages; new inventions and improvements, more efficient management on the part of employers, by better education and training, among others. Instead of focusing on imposing more burdens on employers the government ought to encourage employers to expand. In a free market economy, when there is more freedom in wages there are more jobs and more opportunity.

The issue with this is that many leftists believe labor is NOT a commodity, which is downright wrong.

The term commodity is specifically used for an economic good or service when the demand for it has no qualitative differentiation across a market.[1] In other words, a commodity good or service has full or partial but substantial fungibility; that is, the market treats its instances as equivalent or nearly so with no regard to who produced them.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org...

Labor is extremely differentiated meaning a machine shop specialist can't just walk in and be a nurse. Labor is not a commodity.

I've already explained this to you, and you still do not get it.

Commodities are items that can be bought or sold on the market. Labor is a commodity that can be bought or sold on the market. Individuals sell their labor by agreeing voluntarily to work for some given wage or income in exchange for their labor, while employers purchase labor as they agree to finance the work of an individual on their property, and thus is an investment for the employer.

You certainly don't understand the history of this argument either. The notion that labor is not a commodity became apparent when Marx introduced his Labor Theory of Value, which is a debunked and utterly ludicrous piece of economically illiterate garbage. The idea that labor is not a commodity has been a purely emotional one, as it treats humans as capital and production rather than humans. This, however, is still an economic fact, that labor is a commodity.
If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand. - Friedman

Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. -Friedman

Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program. - Friedman

Society will never be free until the last Democrat is strangled with the entrails of the last Communist.
slo1
Posts: 4,314
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8/14/2016 6:23:09 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/14/2016 4:16:50 PM, bballcrook21 wrote:
At 8/14/2016 1:48:03 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 8/10/2016 3:57:29 PM, bballcrook21 wrote:
At 8/10/2016 3:40:27 PM, FactsVsFeelings wrote:
Labor, like any other commodity, should be competed for. The free market economy thrives on competition and freedom. When government begins to try and regulate prices that is when issues begin to appear. This can be seen greatly in the Minimum Wage.
Admittedly the idea behind the minimum wage is a kind one. The evil employers trying to keep costs down stiff their employees by not paying them enough! Therefore, we ought to force employers to pay a set amount. This is an innocent idea, on the surface at least, and it works. It works wonderfully..to buy votes.
The Left loves the minimum wage. Not because it"s a good idea, even the Left can acknowledge the facts of the minim wage. It doesn"t matter to them, the Left thrives on pandering above all things. They spin themselves as the ones who truly care and the ones who will take care of you. What they leave out is that to do this they will increase spending, make government bigger, and ultimately take away your freedoms.
On the Right we, for the most part, know that the government is terrible at everything. The government is especially bad when it comes to government enforced price controls. At the heart of it that is all minimum wage is. It is the government placing a price control on the cost of labor. The facts tell us that every time the government attempts a minimum wage, the job market does nothing but suffer. Even the first minimum wage under FDR forced employees out of jobs! Employees that were deemed unworthy for the payroll found themselves out of jobs immediately, and during the height of the depression it certainly didn"t help things.
In the book Economics in One Lesson Henry Hazlitt writes, "You cannot make a man worth a given amount by making it illegal for anyone to offer him anything less. You merely deprive him of the right to earn the amount that his abilities and situation would permit him to earn"" Employers know this, but employers cannot do anything about this when there is a minimum wage.
What happens is that in order to pay everyone this minimum wage employers are forced to do one of three things: raise prices, cut costs, or shrink their profit margins. Costumers are always demanding low prices, and employers, not wanting to go under, cannot cut profits. All that is left is to cut costs and to do this they are forced to cut the number of hours they allow an employee to work.
While an employee may be "worth" a certain amount this means nothing when the employer is forced to not let them work. Employees not wanting to loose government benefits sometimes even demand to work less hours! The big government argument can be had another time, but in essence these employees have married the government and don"t want to be cut off.
This isn"t to say that there is no way to raise wages. There are plenty of ways to raises wages; new inventions and improvements, more efficient management on the part of employers, by better education and training, among others. Instead of focusing on imposing more burdens on employers the government ought to encourage employers to expand. In a free market economy, when there is more freedom in wages there are more jobs and more opportunity.

The issue with this is that many leftists believe labor is NOT a commodity, which is downright wrong.

The term commodity is specifically used for an economic good or service when the demand for it has no qualitative differentiation across a market.[1] In other words, a commodity good or service has full or partial but substantial fungibility; that is, the market treats its instances as equivalent or nearly so with no regard to who produced them.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org...

Labor is extremely differentiated meaning a machine shop specialist can't just walk in and be a nurse. Labor is not a commodity.

I've already explained this to you, and you still do not get it.

Commodities are items that can be bought or sold on the market. Labor is a commodity that can be bought or sold on the market. Individuals sell their labor by agreeing voluntarily to work for some given wage or income in exchange for their labor, while employers purchase labor as they agree to finance the work of an individual on their property, and thus is an investment for the employer.


You obviously don't know what a commodity is. I can buy or sell a computer on an open market. That fact doesn't make it a commodity. In fact your definition means that anything sold on an open market is a commodity.

It is your prerogative if you want to make up your own definitions, but labor is not a commodity. It isn't priced like a commodity. It pricing action is different in down makets than commodities. Companies don't hedge against it for price swings like they do for commodities. Labor is not a commodity.

Although if you continue say it enough times I'm sure you can continue to convince yourself it is.

You certainly don't understand the history of this argument either. The notion that labor is not a commodity became apparent when Marx introduced his Labor Theory of Value, which is a debunked and utterly ludicrous piece of economically illiterate garbage. The idea that labor is not a commodity has been a purely emotional one, as it treats humans as capital and production rather than humans. This, however, is still an economic fact, that labor is a commodity.
David_Debates
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8/17/2016 7:33:52 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/10/2016 7:39:23 PM, AlyceTheElectrician wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but I was always under the impression that the minimum wage was never designed to be a 'living wage' but to be a safeguard against legalized slavery.

Actually, minimum wage was created to combat against imigrants taking away American's jobs. Low skill workers with a low reservation wage asked for a lot less than higher skilled American workers with a higher reservation wage. To remove the competition (which, honestly, is one of the stupidest ideas ever), the Gov't instituted a minimum wage so they couldn't out price Americans. Does that make sense?
FactsVsFeelings
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8/25/2016 11:27:22 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/14/2016 6:23:09 PM, slo1 wrote:
anything sold on an open market is a commodity.


Now you get it.

P.S. Don't use Wikipedia as a source if you want to be taken seriously.
slo1
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8/26/2016 3:26:12 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/25/2016 11:27:22 PM, FactsVsFeelings wrote:
At 8/14/2016 6:23:09 PM, slo1 wrote:
anything sold on an open market is a commodity.


Now you get it.

P.S. Don't use Wikipedia as a source if you want to be taken seriously.

Use any source you want to define commodities. Labor is not interchangeable like a commodity is nor is it priced like one.

PS don't use Ballcock's definition of a commodity, if you want to be taken seriously. According to you and he stocks, a seat on an airplane from pont a to point b, and banking services are commodities because they are sold on an open market.
Upiter
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8/29/2016 3:26:52 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
This is pretty much an economic fact. No (respectable) organization denies this. It is more of a question of trade-offs and whether higher retail prices can offset the wage increases.
ColeTrain
Posts: 4,291
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8/29/2016 4:18:40 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/29/2016 3:26:52 AM, Upiter wrote:
This is pretty much an economic fact. No (respectable) organization denies this. It is more of a question of trade-offs and whether higher retail prices can offset the wage increases.

Which, they can't.

It's also interesting how many people you'll find that will argue to the contrary. But, like you said, to anyone even with remote economic literacy, this is a cemented fact.
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zaarbuc
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9/6/2016 11:41:51 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 8/10/2016 7:39:23 PM, AlyceTheElectrician wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but I was always under the impression that the minimum wage was never designed to be a 'living wage' but to be a safeguard against legalized slavery.

No business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country."

"By living wages I mean more than a bare sustenance level - I mean the wages of a decent living." - FDR

There you were wrong and have been corrected.
RonPaulConservative
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9/29/2016 11:20:56 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 8/10/2016 3:40:27 PM, FactsVsFeelings wrote:
Labor, like any other commodity, should be competed for. The free market economy thrives on competition and freedom. When government begins to try and regulate prices that is when issues begin to appear. This can be seen greatly in the Minimum Wage.
Admittedly the idea behind the minimum wage is a kind one. The evil employers trying to keep costs down stiff their employees by not paying them enough! Therefore, we ought to force employers to pay a set amount. This is an innocent idea, on the surface at least, and it works. It works wonderfully..to buy votes.
The Left loves the minimum wage. Not because it"s a good idea, even the Left can acknowledge the facts of the minim wage. It doesn"t matter to them, the Left thrives on pandering above all things. They spin themselves as the ones who truly care and the ones who will take care of you. What they leave out is that to do this they will increase spending, make government bigger, and ultimately take away your freedoms.
On the Right we, for the most part, know that the government is terrible at everything. The government is especially bad when it comes to government enforced price controls. At the heart of it that is all minimum wage is. It is the government placing a price control on the cost of labor. The facts tell us that every time the government attempts a minimum wage, the job market does nothing but suffer. Even the first minimum wage under FDR forced employees out of jobs! Employees that were deemed unworthy for the payroll found themselves out of jobs immediately, and during the height of the depression it certainly didn"t help things.
In the book Economics in One Lesson Henry Hazlitt writes, "You cannot make a man worth a given amount by making it illegal for anyone to offer him anything less. You merely deprive him of the right to earn the amount that his abilities and situation would permit him to earn"" Employers know this, but employers cannot do anything about this when there is a minimum wage.
What happens is that in order to pay everyone this minimum wage employers are forced to do one of three things: raise prices, cut costs, or shrink their profit margins. Costumers are always demanding low prices, and employers, not wanting to go under, cannot cut profits. All that is left is to cut costs and to do this they are forced to cut the number of hours they allow an employee to work.
While an employee may be "worth" a certain amount this means nothing when the employer is forced to not let them work. Employees not wanting to loose government benefits sometimes even demand to work less hours! The big government argument can be had another time, but in essence these employees have married the government and don"t want to be cut off.
This isn"t to say that there is no way to raise wages. There are plenty of ways to raises wages; new inventions and improvements, more efficient management on the part of employers, by better education and training, among others. Instead of focusing on imposing more burdens on employers the government ought to encourage employers to expand. In a free market economy, when there is more freedom in wages there are more jobs and more opportunity.

It depends, if you abolish the minimum wage but establish a truly free market wages and employment will go up, Switzerland is a living example of that. But if you abolish the minimum wage and leave the corporatocracy in place, it will get a lot worse.
Javier-Riefkohl
Posts: 11
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10/2/2016 1:46:16 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
I am an upcoming business student and I for one have always been in favor of raising minimum wage when the country in it's self can support it, I have always looked to Easter Europe such as Sweden. However my own country, Puerto Rico, is going through the toughest economic crisis in it's history and those who will come to oversee our finances; they are being sent by the federal government of the United States, may reduce our minimum wage to $4.25. I understand why they would do it and I suspected it must be for employers to be able to afford more workers, thus moving the economy. I would just like to discuss then if there is no minimum wage,since it kills jobs as you say, how can the work force be assured that they will be receiving adequate recompense for their service. By your opinions, wouldn't taking out minimum wage end us up as the countries in southeast Asia, where they can barely provide for themselves since they can be paid 10 cents an hour if the employer wants?
JavierRiefkohl
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10/3/2016 9:18:06 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 8/11/2016 1:09:46 AM, FactsVsFeelings wrote:
At 8/11/2016 12:59:41 AM, AlyceTheElectrician wrote:
At 8/10/2016 10:36:46 PM, FactsVsFeelings wrote:
At 8/10/2016 9:39:00 PM, bballcrook21 wrote:
At 8/10/2016 9:38:06 PM, AlyceTheElectrician wrote:
At 8/10/2016 9:07:23 PM, bballcrook21 wrote:
At 8/10/2016 7:39:23 PM, AlyceTheElectrician wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but I was always under the impression that the minimum wage was never designed to be a 'living wage' but to be a safeguard against legalized slavery.

No, it was always meant to be a living wage. A safeguard against legalized slavery is this thing called "the right to life and liberty".

I always thought of it as a starting off point, not meant for settling on, but I guess it depends.

Exactly. Min wage is for college students as part time jobs and for high schoolers, not for adults to base a family off of flipping burgers.

Ironically that's why it hurts the people minimum wage is 'supposed' to help. Finding that first job for a young person is damn near impossible thanks to this. The let's say..25 year olds and up on minimum wage never take risks because they're promised this steady set wage. Closing off the entry level position jobs.

I just read somewhere that 16-24 year olds make of half of minimum wage earners. So I guess the other half are unskilled laborers 25 and up. Totally they only make up roughly 3MIL, so there is hope that America can fully convert to free market with no minimum wage mandate without severely affecting a significant portion of the US population.

How long does it usually take to see the benefits of a totally free market with no minimum wage mandate?

The minimum wage was the second part of FDR's "New Deal" a horrible bundle of Socialist ideas instituted during the great depression. We were free from Government mandated wages before that, and had FDR not meddled in the free market the Depression may have ended much sooner.

Roosevelt actually prolonged the depression by SEVEN YEARS with his new deal. The Free Market goes through ups and downs but ultimately it always heals itself in the end if you don't tamper with it.

I'd argue that if the Minimum wage was abolished today you'd see the affects immediately. Bad at first as wages go down and unemployment rises, but as the Market heals itself wages and unemployment would rise. The industries that would be affected would be the service jobs which currently thrive and make a profit because of minimum wage.

You may choose to believe The New Deal prolonged the Depression but I would take a strong stance that without the expansion of government spending as prescribed by Keynes, the Depression would've resulted in something similar to a barter economy to achieve recovery and may have taken America as long as it had been in existence to recover.

Fortunately technology would've sped that along faster than my above remark. I use that comment merely to illustrate the strength of my stance on the matter.

I think we can both agree the true recovery and revival of American Capitalism came as a result of the events that transpired nearly a decade after which was WWII. Which allowed government spending to increase employment in the form of military employment. I'm advocating we go to war to get out of recessions, nor am I discounting the lives of the great men who gave their lives for me to have the freedom to have the opinion i'm sitting here writing, I am saying those military jobs gave good men an employment opportunity that lead to the greatest period of economic prosperity with the least amount of income inequality, namely the 1950s. When they came home from the war they had money, they started families, and had worked very hard for what they had.
"Capitalism is the belief the wickedest of men, will engage in the wickedest of dealings, for the greater good of all of us." -Keynes
David_Debates
Posts: 244
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11/29/2016 7:48:47 AM
Posted: 4 days ago
At 10/2/2016 1:46:16 PM, Javier-Riefkohl wrote:
I am an upcoming business student and I for one have always been in favor of raising minimum wage when the country in it's self can support it, I have always looked to Easter Europe such as Sweden. However my own country, Puerto Rico, is going through the toughest economic crisis in it's history and those who will come to oversee our finances; they are being sent by the federal government of the United States, may reduce our minimum wage to $4.25. I understand why they would do it and I suspected it must be for employers to be able to afford more workers, thus moving the economy. I would just like to discuss then if there is no minimum wage,since it kills jobs as you say, how can the work force be assured that they will be receiving adequate recompense for their service. By your opinions, wouldn't taking out minimum wage end us up as the countries in southeast Asia, where they can barely provide for themselves since they can be paid 10 cents an hour if the employer wants?

Would you rather have a low minimum wage or no minimum wage at all?

If I were you, I'd choose the latter. The minimum wage is basically the government telling a business what your labor is worth. I don't see how the Government should be the one in control of that, this should be sorted out by the employer and the worker.

Sorry for the short response, if you want to see a full response, check out my blog post here.
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GrimlyF
Posts: 89
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12/4/2016 1:33:41 AM
Posted: 4 hours ago
In Britain we have " cost of living" based on where you work. Workers get more money in London than anywhere else. This includes minimum wage. Is it the same in the U.S.?.
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Lonely-Bird
Posts: 51
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12/4/2016 5:00:07 AM
Posted: 1 hour ago
Wow. What mass of drivel. First there is no such thing as "the free market". Never was, never will be. Next the term "market" is used to describe the mass of transactions that occur between parties. Thus "the market" cannot decide anything as the mass of transactions that the term is decides nothing. Humans decide what, where, when and how they engage in transactions. Thus behavior including the psychological based thought processes drive the transactions. Now the closest thing to a free market existed after the start of the industrial revolution in this country. The movement from agrarian-artesian to labor intensive industry was most highlighted after approximately 1850. And what were some of the things we saw? Railroads depending upon the largesse of the federal government for land. The government driving natives so that capital could do as it wished. And so on. And of course all during this time as well as before here and in Europe boom/bust cycles.

As for the Great Depression and ww2 what would we call ww2 but the largest government intervention in the economy in history. The u.s. economy emerged not just unscathed from the war but in excellent health. And as such it stood astride the world. FDR saves capitalism from itself and ends up reviled. Utter nonsense. Capitalism requires government to exist but its dirty little secret is that it wants government at its beck and call. It demands authoritarianism to reproduce capital at its most efficient. It is inherently anti-democratic. The Von Hayekization of society from a nation of citizens to a nation of consumers results in destruction of institutions. The market cannot solve problems because there is no market. There is only people seeking to reproduce capital. If it can be done by shuffling paper as we have seen in the bubble then it will do so.

Btw before anyone bleats "socialism! communism!" they need to think twice. Ain't either one.