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Intellectual Property

belle
Posts: 4,113
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1/3/2011 11:36:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
how is it property? it seems more like a gov't subsidy for inventors.

discuss.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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1/3/2011 11:38:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
how is it property? it seems more like a gov't subsidy for inventors.

discuss.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
LaissezFaire
Posts: 2,050
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1/3/2011 11:40:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/3/2011 11:38:47 PM, bluesteel wrote:
how is it property? it seems more like a gov't subsidy for inventors.

discuss.

lol
Should we subsidize education?
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: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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1/3/2011 11:49:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Agreed. IP creates false scarcity and commits the atrocious absurdity of giving a monopoly on an idea. Just thinking of that is disgusting. It only heads progress.
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fnord
badger
Posts: 11,793
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1/4/2011 12:03:30 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/3/2011 11:49:00 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Agreed. IP creates false scarcity and commits the atrocious absurdity of giving a monopoly on an idea. Just thinking of that is disgusting. It only heads progress.

i don't get the last bit..
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FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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1/4/2011 12:06:55 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/4/2011 12:03:30 AM, badger wrote:
At 1/3/2011 11:49:00 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Agreed. IP creates false scarcity and commits the atrocious absurdity of giving a monopoly on an idea. Just thinking of that is disgusting. It only heads progress.

i don't get the last bit..

You don't see the link between monopoly and heading progress?
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
wamba
Posts: 688
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1/4/2011 12:07:10 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/3/2011 11:49:00 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Agreed. IP creates false scarcity and commits the atrocious absurdity of giving a monopoly on an idea. Just thinking of that is disgusting. It only heads progress.

Or it provides an incentive for entrepreneurship, the core of any capitalist economy?
belle
Posts: 4,113
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1/4/2011 12:12:27 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/4/2011 12:06:55 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 1/4/2011 12:03:30 AM, badger wrote:
At 1/3/2011 11:49:00 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Agreed. IP creates false scarcity and commits the atrocious absurdity of giving a monopoly on an idea. Just thinking of that is disgusting. It only heads progress.

i don't get the last bit..

You don't see the link between monopoly and heading progress?

i don't think head is the word you're looking for. impede maybe.

i do wonder, however, about the status of things like pharmacuticals, which are extremely expensive to produce. people lose all incentive to do so without the ability to patent their creation. it just seems to muddle the issue, calling it property
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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1/4/2011 12:14:00 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
i do wonder, however, about the status of things like pharmacuticals, which are extremely expensive to produce. people lose all incentive to do so without the ability to patent their creation. it just seems to muddle the issue, calling it property
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
wamba
Posts: 688
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1/4/2011 12:14:50 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/4/2011 12:12:27 AM, belle wrote:
At 1/4/2011 12:06:55 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 1/4/2011 12:03:30 AM, badger wrote:
At 1/3/2011 11:49:00 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Agreed. IP creates false scarcity and commits the atrocious absurdity of giving a monopoly on an idea. Just thinking of that is disgusting. It only heads progress.

i don't get the last bit..

You don't see the link between monopoly and heading progress?

i don't think head is the word you're looking for. impede maybe.

i do wonder, however, about the status of things like pharmacuticals, which are extremely expensive to produce. people lose all incentive to do so without the ability to patent their creation. it just seems to muddle the issue, calling it property

If I can download it, it's my property. If I can't, it's yours.
bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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1/4/2011 12:16:44 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/4/2011 12:14:50 AM, wamba wrote:

If I can download it, it's my property. If I can't, it's yours.

lol, well possession is 9/10 of the law, and since the law is at least 10% bogus...
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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1/4/2011 2:41:47 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
If you base intellectual property based on the labor theory of property, which states that property comes from the exertion of labor on natural resources.
Open borders debate:
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badger
Posts: 11,793
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1/4/2011 6:07:53 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/4/2011 12:06:55 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 1/4/2011 12:03:30 AM, badger wrote:
At 1/3/2011 11:49:00 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Agreed. IP creates false scarcity and commits the atrocious absurdity of giving a monopoly on an idea. Just thinking of that is disgusting. It only heads progress.

i don't get the last bit..

You don't see the link between monopoly and heading progress?

progress of what?
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brian_eggleston
Posts: 3,347
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1/4/2011 7:01:19 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery so, really, if someone rips-off your work they are, in fact, praising you – you should be pleased.
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PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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1/4/2011 7:05:29 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/3/2011 11:36:07 PM, belle wrote:
how is it property? it seems more like a gov't subsidy for inventors.

discuss.:

It's property in the sense that your well-documented, original ideas should be protected from subversion. That's an identifiable Constitutional right, becasue you are guaranteed to be secure in your person, home, personal effects, and your papers against intrusion by the government without a warrant.

A patent doesn't subsidize inventors for their inventions, it merely is the legal basis for protecting them.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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1/4/2011 1:22:05 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/4/2011 12:14:00 AM, bluesteel wrote:
i do wonder, however, about the status of things like pharmacuticals, which are extremely expensive to produce. people lose all incentive to do so without the ability to patent their creation. it just seems to muddle the issue, calling it property

No one's playing along . . . you're supposed to say "that's a really great point bluesteel"
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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1/4/2011 1:25:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/4/2011 1:22:05 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 1/4/2011 12:14:00 AM, bluesteel wrote:
i do wonder, however, about the status of things like pharmacuticals, which are extremely expensive to produce. people lose all incentive to do so without the ability to patent their creation. it just seems to muddle the issue, calling it property

No one's playing along . . . you're supposed to say "that's a really great point bluesteel":

I don't want to lie though ;)
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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1/5/2011 10:09:56 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/4/2011 12:14:00 AM, bluesteel wrote:
i do wonder, however, about the status of things like pharmacuticals, which are extremely expensive to produce. people lose all incentive to do so without the ability to patent their creation. it just seems to muddle the issue, calling it property

This. Drug discovery is something akin to hitting the lottery. Usually, it's done by a smaller drug company, and the bigger ones will simply cut off an arm and a leg, outright *buy* the smaller company, just for that drug.
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bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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1/5/2011 11:56:35 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Is there some way to distinguish between IP to prevent plagiarism (like for books) and IP on products, which in many ways is a government granted monopoly? I don't see how they're the same, except in name.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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1/5/2011 8:06:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/4/2011 12:07:10 AM, wamba wrote:
At 1/3/2011 11:49:00 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Agreed. IP creates false scarcity and commits the atrocious absurdity of giving a monopoly on an idea. Just thinking of that is disgusting. It only heads progress.

Or it provides an incentive for entrepreneurship, the core of any capitalist economy?

Orrrrr....maybe it destroys the incentive of the entire public to improve and/or sell the product at a better price, because it's illegal, in exchange for giving incentive to create this product that no one else can improve and/or sell at a better price.
Sounds just like how a free-market should work.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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1/5/2011 8:13:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/5/2011 8:06:56 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 1/4/2011 12:07:10 AM, wamba wrote:
At 1/3/2011 11:49:00 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Agreed. IP creates false scarcity and commits the atrocious absurdity of giving a monopoly on an idea. Just thinking of that is disgusting. It only heads progress.

Or it provides an incentive for entrepreneurship, the core of any capitalist economy?

Orrrrr....maybe it destroys the incentive of the entire public to improve and/or sell the product at a better price, because it's illegal, in exchange for giving incentive to create this product that no one else can improve and/or sell at a better price.
Sounds just like how a free-market should work.

Legally, they can improve it and sell it, if the government deems it different enough. Still, it's bullocks.
My idea for solving the improvement issue, since otherwise, innovation at expense is discouraged, is that program developers find a better way to make money off their product than selling keys. They could sell online accounts instead of keys and data. Or, they could include non-copy as part of the contract at purchase.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Caramel
Posts: 855
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1/6/2011 2:09:36 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/5/2011 10:09:56 AM, Kleptin wrote:
At 1/4/2011 12:14:00 AM, Belle wrote:
i do wonder, however, about the status of things like pharmacuticals, which are extremely expensive to produce. people lose all incentive to do so without the ability to patent their creation. it just seems to muddle the issue, calling it property

This. Drug discovery is something akin to hitting the lottery. Usually, it's done by a smaller drug company, and the bigger ones will simply cut off an arm and a leg, outright *buy* the smaller company, just for that drug.

You both are so sure that using money like a carrot in front of a donkey is the best way to provoke progress. What about all those people who would study in the field that don't because they never even had a chance due to poverty? What about all the people who had early families and needed to take day jobs in a gas station or serving richer people food all day long instead of pursuing their intellectual goals? What about the chemists who are unemployed or the ones who decided to do something useless to society like sell cars or work for an insurance company simply because there was more money for themselves there? What about people in other countries who have high IQs but no access to technology? We're more concerned with keeping them off our damned property than we are in seeing if they have some minds that could perhaps cure cancer some day.

I'm not a scientist (perhaps Belle can clarify) but I doubt any scientist works just to get a patent. It seems to me that it is the company that seeks the patent. So the IP gives the company a motivator to invest in the scientists who need the equipment in the lab to do the research. If the company didn't pay the scientists to use the equipment, would the scientists lose interest and disperse into other activities? If they didn't need to work a different job to make up for the lost income, would they not still have an interest in being productive? Even an ant doesn't need money to carry out her tasks in the colony. Are we really so corrupted and selfish that we are lower than beasts?
no comment
Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
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1/6/2011 2:20:36 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/6/2011 2:09:36 AM, Caramel wrote:
What about all those people who would study in the field that don't because they never even had a chance due to poverty?

1. In a free market, poverty as we know it would not exist.
2. If they seem promising they could secure a loan.

What about all the people who had early families and needed to take day jobs in a gas station or serving richer people food all day long instead of pursuing their intellectual goals?

Loans.

What about the chemists who are unemployed or the ones who decided to do something useless to society like sell cars or work for an insurance company simply because there was more money for themselves there?

There would only be more money there if it was productive. In this way, prices allocate scarce resources to their most productive societal use.

What about people in other countries who have high IQs but no access to technology?

Loans.

I'm not a scientist (perhaps Belle can clarify) but I doubt any scientist works just to get a patent. It seems to me that it is the company that seeks the patent. So the IP gives the company a motivator to invest in the scientists who need the equipment in the lab to do the research.

IP is the threat of force against peaceful people.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
belle
Posts: 4,113
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1/6/2011 2:21:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/6/2011 2:09:36 AM, Caramel wrote:
You both are so sure that using money like a carrot in front of a donkey is the best way to provoke progress. What about all those people who would study in the field that don't because they never even had a chance due to poverty? What about all the people who had early families and needed to take day jobs in a gas station or serving richer people food all day long instead of pursuing their intellectual goals?

its not impossible to support yourself and go to college at the same time, especially with the federal grants that are offered to low income students.

and "people with early families" have a ton of options to avoid that plight- they can
a) not have sex
b) use birth control properly
c) get an abortion or
d) give the baby up for adoption once its born

and yes, its horrible, one's material condition influences one's family planning... but its always been that way. before civilization really took off babies that the parents felt they couldn't support were just murdered or left to die. things have improved quite a bit since then, but you can't arbitrarily declare that people have a "right" to have kids whether they can afford them or not. thats entirely beside the point though, sorry. lol

We're more concerned with keeping them off our damned property than we are in seeing if they have some minds that could perhaps cure cancer some day.

well heres the problem though- we can just say "here are the ideas, no more patents, do some research!!!"

serious research requires expensive equipment and a lot of free time. someone has to pay the scientists while they are working to ensure they are fed and clothed so the can concentrate on their work. and the fact is, most of their work is entirely fruitless when it comes to curing diseases. so it would have to be a very rich someone willing to pay a lot of money for many scientists to go about their business and quite possibly find nothing. the fact that anything found can generate a lot of revenue for the investors provides them with the incentive needed to pour millions of dollars into an inherently risky enterprise.

If the company didn't pay the scientists to use the equipment, would the scientists lose interest and disperse into other activities? If they didn't need to work a different job to make up for the lost income, would they not still have an interest in being productive?

but they would need to work another job to support themselves. they can't just be magically supported by wishing...

Even an ant doesn't need money to carry out her tasks in the colony. Are we really so corrupted and selfish that we are lower than beasts?

we don't need money to merely survive. this is true. but we do need money if we are to maintain the large abundance of extras we have produced above the level of mere subsistence.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
Floid
Posts: 751
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1/6/2011 2:49:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/3/2011 11:36:07 PM, belle wrote:
how is it property? it seems more like a gov't subsidy for inventors.

discuss.

Any technology that requires a substantial investment of time and/or money would be destroyed if not for intellectual property rights. Pharmaceuticals have already been mentioned, but other technical areas fall under the same umbrella. If you don't allow companies/people to recup the costs of their research and development then there is no incentive to do research and development. Copycats will always be able to sell copies cheaper because they don't have to cover the cost of the research that created the product.

The same is true of copyrights. The argument for music has always been the musicians can make their money of concerts, but what about authors, filmmakers, software companies, etc?
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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1/6/2011 2:52:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/6/2011 2:49:36 PM, Floid wrote:
At 1/3/2011 11:36:07 PM, belle wrote:
how is it property? it seems more like a gov't subsidy for inventors.

discuss.


Any technology that requires a substantial investment of time and/or money would be destroyed if not for intellectual property rights. Pharmaceuticals have already been mentioned, but other technical areas fall under the same umbrella. If you don't allow companies/people to recup the costs of their research and development then there is no incentive to do research and development. Copycats will always be able to sell copies cheaper because they don't have to cover the cost of the research that created the product.

The same is true of copyrights. The argument for music has always been the musicians can make their money of concerts, but what about authors, filmmakers, software companies, etc?

Truth.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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1/6/2011 11:48:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/4/2011 12:06:55 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 1/4/2011 12:03:30 AM, badger wrote:
At 1/3/2011 11:49:00 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Agreed. IP creates false scarcity and commits the atrocious absurdity of giving a monopoly on an idea. Just thinking of that is disgusting. It only heads progress.

i don't get the last bit..

You don't see the link between monopoly and heading progress?

Completely removing IP heads progress, because the person that invested all the time and effort for R&D in designing the product is easily stolen and used by others when you did all the work, so why do the work to begin with. Everyone will just sit around and wait for others to invest the time and money. thus heading progress.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"