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Do illigal immigrants take or make our jobs?

Quadrunner
Posts: 1,083
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10/28/2016 8:50:06 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
I've had very good experience with illegals providing me with low priced high quality service, but a lot of people say they are a drain on the economy and take our jobs.

Are they taking American jobs, or expanding them behind the scenes?

Hammer it out guys.
Wisdom is found where the wise seek it.
ken1122
Posts: 465
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11/1/2016 12:47:33 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/28/2016 8:50:06 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
I've had very good experience with illegals providing me with low priced high quality service, but a lot of people say they are a drain on the economy and take our jobs.

Are they taking American jobs, or expanding them behind the scenes?

Hammer it out guys.

I think illegal immigrants drive down wages for the poor, and increase profits for the rich. Yet some of the most adamant supporters I see of illegal immigrants are the same people who vilify the gap between the rich and poor.

Ken
slo1
Posts: 4,322
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11/13/2016 4:40:31 PM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/1/2016 12:47:33 AM, ken1122 wrote:
At 10/28/2016 8:50:06 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
I've had very good experience with illegals providing me with low priced high quality service, but a lot of people say they are a drain on the economy and take our jobs.

Are they taking American jobs, or expanding them behind the scenes?

Hammer it out guys.

I think illegal immigrants drive down wages for the poor, and increase profits for the rich. Yet some of the most adamant supporters I see of illegal immigrants are the same people who vilify the gap between the rich and poor.

Ken

That same hypocrisy exists on the other side of the coin. More money in the rich hands increases economic activity also wage inflation would decrease low wage jobs just like a min wage hike would.

It is why I keep saying the issue is one primarily of economics not physical walls. Any side that takes an absolute deport all or legalize all is wrong.
ken1122
Posts: 465
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11/14/2016 4:54:13 AM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/13/2016 4:40:31 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 11/1/2016 12:47:33 AM, ken1122 wrote:
At 10/28/2016 8:50:06 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
I've had very good experience with illegals providing me with low priced high quality service, but a lot of people say they are a drain on the economy and take our jobs.

Are they taking American jobs, or expanding them behind the scenes?

Hammer it out guys.

I think illegal immigrants drive down wages for the poor, and increase profits for the rich. Yet some of the most adamant supporters I see of illegal immigrants are the same people who vilify the gap between the rich and poor.

Ken

That same hypocrisy exists on the other side of the coin. More money in the rich hands increases economic activity also wage inflation would decrease low wage jobs just like a min wage hike would.

No hypocrisy because the problem is not too much money in the hands of the rich, the problem is not enough money in the hands of the poor.

It is why I keep saying the issue is one primarily of economics not physical walls. Any side that takes an absolute deport all or legalize all is wrong.

I doubt anybody expects to be able to deport all 11 million people who shouldn't be here, a realistic solution would be to deport the ones you find.

Ken
slo1
Posts: 4,322
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11/14/2016 12:09:09 PM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/14/2016 4:54:13 AM, ken1122 wrote:
At 11/13/2016 4:40:31 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 11/1/2016 12:47:33 AM, ken1122 wrote:
At 10/28/2016 8:50:06 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
I've had very good experience with illegals providing me with low priced high quality service, but a lot of people say they are a drain on the economy and take our jobs.

Are they taking American jobs, or expanding them behind the scenes?

Hammer it out guys.

I think illegal immigrants drive down wages for the poor, and increase profits for the rich. Yet some of the most adamant supporters I see of illegal immigrants are the same people who vilify the gap between the rich and poor.

Ken

That same hypocrisy exists on the other side of the coin. More money in the rich hands increases economic activity also wage inflation would decrease low wage jobs just like a min wage hike would.

No hypocrisy because the problem is not too much money in the hands of the rich, the problem is not enough money in the hands of the poor.

You don't get it. Wage inflation produces the same results min wage, less jobs. It would be a blow to companies that require min wage workers. Inflation effects every one. Couple wage inflation with trickle down ecomomics and it is a double blow.

It is why I keep saying the issue is one primarily of economics not physical walls. Any side that takes an absolute deport all or legalize all is wrong.

I doubt anybody expects to be able to deport all 11 million people who shouldn't be here, a realistic solution would be to deport the ones you find.

Of course and that is why folks like me call bullshat when people think we can get rid of all illegals when low skill wages increase and there are not enough workers to fill the roles. It is a waste of money without creating a low wage visa program.

Ken
ken1122
Posts: 465
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11/15/2016 6:27:08 AM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
At 11/14/2016 12:09:09 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 11/14/2016 4:54:13 AM, ken1122 wrote:
At 11/13/2016 4:40:31 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 11/1/2016 12:47:33 AM, ken1122 wrote:
At 10/28/2016 8:50:06 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
I've had very good experience with illegals providing me with low priced high quality service, but a lot of people say they are a drain on the economy and take our jobs.

Are they taking American jobs, or expanding them behind the scenes?

Hammer it out guys.

I think illegal immigrants drive down wages for the poor, and increase profits for the rich. Yet some of the most adamant supporters I see of illegal immigrants are the same people who vilify the gap between the rich and poor.

Ken

That same hypocrisy exists on the other side of the coin. More money in the rich hands increases economic activity also wage inflation would decrease low wage jobs just like a min wage hike would.

No hypocrisy because the problem is not too much money in the hands of the rich, the problem is not enough money in the hands of the poor.

You don't get it. Wage inflation produces the same results min wage, less jobs.

But those jobs would be filled with US citizens.

It would be a blow to companies that require min wage workers.

No; it would be a blow to companies that are used to paying LESS than minimum wages

It is why I keep saying the issue is one primarily of economics not physical walls. Any side that takes an absolute deport all or legalize all is wrong.

I doubt anybody expects to be able to deport all 11 million people who shouldn't be here, a realistic solution would be to deport the ones you find.

Of course and that is why folks like me call bullshat when people think we can get rid of all illegals when low skill wages increase and there are not enough workers to fill the roles. It is a waste of money without creating a low wage visa program.

US citizens will work any job for a fair wage. If the employer cannot afford to pay a fair wage, he should not be in business.

Ken
slo1
Posts: 4,322
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11/15/2016 1:10:00 PM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
At 11/15/2016 6:27:08 AM, ken1122 wrote:
At 11/14/2016 12:09:09 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 11/14/2016 4:54:13 AM, ken1122 wrote:
At 11/13/2016 4:40:31 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 11/1/2016 12:47:33 AM, ken1122 wrote:
At 10/28/2016 8:50:06 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
I've had very good experience with illegals providing me with low priced high quality service, but a lot of people say they are a drain on the economy and take our jobs.

Are they taking American jobs, or expanding them behind the scenes?

Hammer it out guys.

I think illegal immigrants drive down wages for the poor, and increase profits for the rich. Yet some of the most adamant supporters I see of illegal immigrants are the same people who vilify the gap between the rich and poor.

Ken

That same hypocrisy exists on the other side of the coin. More money in the rich hands increases economic activity also wage inflation would decrease low wage jobs just like a min wage hike would.

No hypocrisy because the problem is not too much money in the hands of the rich, the problem is not enough money in the hands of the poor.

You don't get it. Wage inflation produces the same results min wage, less jobs.

But those jobs would be filled with US citizens.

Less jobs would be filled by American citizens because the market price to attract them would be very much higher than the current market rate. Much higher pay, less jobs, and higher prices especially agricultural products. My sole point was to demonstrate to you how there is plenty of hypocrisy on consevative positions when it comes to illegal immigration to your response the the lefts hypocrisy. If you can't see how it cuts both ways then God save you.

It would be a blow to companies that require min wage workers.

No; it would be a blow to companies that are used to paying LESS than minimum wages

Lots of companies pay legal wages to illegals who have fake papers. You are thinking of those hanging out at home depot which is a very small minority of illegals.

It is why I keep saying the issue is one primarily of economics not physical walls. Any side that takes an absolute deport all or legalize all is wrong.

I doubt anybody expects to be able to deport all 11 million people who shouldn't be here, a realistic solution would be to deport the ones you find.

Of course and that is why folks like me call bullshat when people think we can get rid of all illegals when low skill wages increase and there are not enough workers to fill the roles. It is a waste of money without creating a low wage visa program.

US citizens will work any job for a fair wage. If the employer cannot afford to pay a fair wage, he should not be in business.

Ken
JNL.org
Posts: 5
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11/15/2016 1:28:54 PM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
Illegal immigrants take the jobs that are left out. It moves similar to entrepreneurship but with the exception that they don't have a citizenship. They take care of covering the vacant jobs to fill the demand. Just like the idea of a business. It is built to satisfy the needs of the market.
ken1122
Posts: 465
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11/15/2016 1:53:57 PM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
At 11/15/2016 1:10:00 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 11/15/2016 6:27:08 AM, ken1122 wrote:
At 11/14/2016 12:09:09 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 11/14/2016 4:54:13 AM, ken1122 wrote:
At 11/13/2016 4:40:31 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 11/1/2016 12:47:33 AM, ken1122 wrote:
At 10/28/2016 8:50:06 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
I've had very good experience with illegals providing me with low priced high quality service, but a lot of people say they are a drain on the economy and take our jobs.

Are they taking American jobs, or expanding them behind the scenes?

Hammer it out guys.

I think illegal immigrants drive down wages for the poor, and increase profits for the rich. Yet some of the most adamant supporters I see of illegal immigrants are the same people who vilify the gap between the rich and poor.

Ken

That same hypocrisy exists on the other side of the coin. More money in the rich hands increases economic activity also wage inflation would decrease low wage jobs just like a min wage hike would.

No hypocrisy because the problem is not too much money in the hands of the rich, the problem is not enough money in the hands of the poor.

You don't get it. Wage inflation produces the same results min wage, less jobs.

But those jobs would be filled with US citizens.

Less jobs would be filled by American citizens because the market price to attract them would be very much higher than the current market rate. Much higher pay, less jobs, and higher prices especially agricultural products. My sole point was to demonstrate to you how there is plenty of hypocrisy on consevative positions when it comes to illegal immigration to your response the the lefts hypocrisy. If you can't see how it cuts both ways then God save you.

*There has always been legal systems in place to allow the poor from Mexico to come to the USA for temporary work, then to go back after the work is over.
*If food prices rise a little because the cost of US labor is a little more, then that is the price it should be.
*I don"t necessary buy the idea that prices would rise. In the 1990"s before the illegals took over the construction industry in the state of Idaho, US citizens were getting paid typical union wages to build houses in Idaho, and Illegals were getting paid a bit over minimum wages to build houses in Southern California. At the end of the day, which house do you think cost more? Even though the labor was approx. 3 times as much to build houses in Idaho than in California, the house in southern California sold for over twice as much as the house in Idaho. Where do you think all that extra money the California contractor saved went? It certainly didn"t go to the buyer. A person who makes a product is going to sell it for as much as he can; the cost to make the product is irrelevant.


It would be a blow to companies that require min wage workers.

No; it would be a blow to companies that are used to paying LESS than minimum wages

Lots of companies pay legal wages to illegals who have fake papers. You are thinking of those hanging out at home depot which is a very small minority of illegals.

I"m not talking about Home Depot; I"m talking about jobs for citizens. Currently Black teenage unemployment in the USA is at nearly 30%.
http://www.bls.gov...
There are plenty of US citizens in need of some of those jobs.

Ken
ken1122
Posts: 465
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11/15/2016 1:57:44 PM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
At 11/15/2016 1:28:54 PM, JNL.org wrote:
Illegal immigrants take the jobs that are left out.

And why do you suppose the job is left out? Perhaps because the wages are too low? If they can't pay a legal wage, they shouldn't be in business.
It moves similar to entrepreneurship but with the exception that they don't have a citizenship. They take care of covering the vacant jobs to fill the demand. Just like the idea of a business. It is built to satisfy the needs of the market.

Illegal Immigrants take jobs that should be going to US citizens.

Ken
craswell
Posts: 2
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11/18/2016 12:56:10 AM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
Jobs will both be made and filled. Unemployment will run about the same either way. The "jobs" problem many complain about really is localized to crime ridden communities where no one will set up business (thus the high black youth unemployment), and areas that have experienced a shock (rustbelt) . We cant blame illegals for that.

GDP will be bigger with illegals but it is not "good" GDP because gdp per capita is averaged down. Aside from that there are big problems collecting taxes, access to services etc. So despite the jobs issue being a wash there is no overall benefit to having illegals when lineups to have vetted legal immigrants are endless.
Subutai
Posts: 3,189
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11/20/2016 11:02:44 AM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
At 10/28/2016 8:50:06 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
I've had very good experience with illegals providing me with low priced high quality service, but a lot of people say they are a drain on the economy and take our jobs.

Are they taking American jobs, or expanding them behind the scenes?

Hammer it out guys.

The main problem with immigrants is that the jobs they typically take are lower-class jobs, which are already feeling a huge squeeze from outsourcing and automation. They may work better and cheaper than the average lower-class American, but it forces out those lower-class Americans from even more jobs and gives them even fewer opportunities. Any jobs they create would be at least middle-class.
I'm becoming less defined as days go by, fading away, and well you might say, I'm losing focus, kinda drifting into the abstract in terms of how I see myself.
ShabShoral
Posts: 3,229
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11/20/2016 11:20:59 AM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
Take
"This site is trash as a debate site. It's club penguin for dysfunctional adults."

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"You seem to aspire to be a cross between a Jewish hipster, an old school WASP aristocrat, and a political iconoclast"

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Subutai
Posts: 3,189
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11/20/2016 11:21:50 AM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
At 11/20/2016 11:20:59 AM, ShabShoral wrote:
Take

It's war.
I'm becoming less defined as days go by, fading away, and well you might say, I'm losing focus, kinda drifting into the abstract in terms of how I see myself.
ShabShoral
Posts: 3,229
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11/20/2016 11:22:32 AM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
economic warfare
"This site is trash as a debate site. It's club penguin for dysfunctional adults."

~ Skepsikyma <3

"Your idea of good writing is like Spinoza mixed with Heidegger."

~ Dylly Dylly Cat Cat

"You seem to aspire to be a cross between a Jewish hipster, an old school WASP aristocrat, and a political iconoclast"

~ Thett the Mighty

"fvck omg ur face"

~ Liz
Quadrunner
Posts: 1,083
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11/20/2016 3:07:07 PM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
At 11/1/2016 12:47:33 AM, ken1122 wrote:
At 10/28/2016 8:50:06 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
I've had very good experience with illegals providing me with low priced high quality service, but a lot of people say they are a drain on the economy and take our jobs.

Are they taking American jobs, or expanding them behind the scenes?

Hammer it out guys.

I think illegal immigrants drive down wages for the poor, and increase profits for the rich. Yet some of the most adamant supporters I see of illegal immigrants are the same people who vilify the gap between the rich and poor.

Ken

At the same time, when wages are driven down, cost of living is driven down, so maybe one field (what a perfect word lol) is inherently advantageous for illegals to compete in, and jobs are displaced, but assuming illegals are primarily undercutting only labor that requires low levels of training, those who are displaced should have no trouble finding a job elsewhere as they specialize at generalization.

I do however see an issue with wages going down too far, as there are stable costs that will not go down with them like health care and the insurance industries that surround it, that largely draw a hard line for just how low its possible to avoid poverty. To me, health care and other costs of living that don't follow capitalist tendencies with respect to lower class are the main issue here, and they are causing resentment when people's wages go down or remain stagnant while money that we need to invest to survive is going up...

Lower wages, competition, and job displacement would surely not be an issue if the entire market reflected them as well as we see in the food industry. Of course, government influenced, exclusively middle-upper class driven industries like health care don't follow trends and necessities of the lower class, and can raise the poverty line despite healthy competition for wages among those who live near it.

Thus making illegals who are lowering wages an unprotected scape goat for providing temporary relief. Furthermore, the tax contributions of 11 million more legal Americans would contribute with significance to funding our blundering government's heavy hand in the health care industry, and their greater chance of increased product (measured in dollars) that they could contribute to America if they are going to be living here anyway.
Wisdom is found where the wise seek it.
Welfare-Worker
Posts: 1,173
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11/21/2016 2:04:59 PM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
Let me tell you how much they cost in social service dollars.
So much, they don't keep track of it. So much they deny there is any welfare cost associated with illegal immigrants.

That's how they do things. When the problem is really, really big, like HUGE. they just deny it exists.
Illegal immigrants do not qualify for welfare benefits. So, there is no problem. Never mind the loopholes big enough to drive tractor trailers full of cash through.
The problem does not exist.
Or so I have been told, dozens of times, by everybody except social service workers, who have a better idea about the truth of the matter.

Illegal immigrants do not get food stamps, but:

The food-stamps offer is spelled out in a Spanish language flyer provided by the United States Department of Agriculture to the Mexican Embassy.
Judicial Watch said the flyer proves that the USDA is making "no effort to restrict aid to, identify, or apprehend illegal immigrants who may be on the food stamp rolls.""
Officials with the U.S. Department of Agriculture have been quietly assuring illegal immigrants that taking food stamps and other government assistance won"t slow their paths toward citizenship.
The agency"s Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program addresses the point: The brochure asks, "If I get on SNAP benefits, will I be a "public charge?""
The brochure then answers: "No. You and your family can apply for and receive SNAP benefits without hurting your chance of becoming U.S. citizens."
~ ~
Applicants for subsidized housing must be citizens or legal immigrants. Sullivan notes that undocumented immigrants are allowed to live in subsidized housing if at least one member of the household is in the country legally. Typically, this happens when undocumented parents have a child in the U.S. Anyone born here is automatically a citizen and the parents could then rent in a HUD-subsidized property. In these cases, HUD reduces the subsidy for each undocumented person in the unit.
[Explanation: if income is zero, rent from illegal is zero. Zero reduced, is still zero. The subsidy is !00% regardless]