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Fair trade is a bunch of sh!t

innomen
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1/31/2011 5:41:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I have known this for some time now, but have my occasional spots of reinforcement.

I am sitting here in a very small hotel room in the hills of Matagalpa Nicaragua, which is prime coffee country. It's my fourth time to the country, and my third time here. This is where my partner is from, and where his family live.

So on the way here I was sitting next to someone who was going to a seminar in the capital on investing in fair trade. Now my previous experience has been that the money never gets to the people that are picking the coffee. A little bit f it does indeed get to the local farmers, but they treat their workers as bad or worse than the corporate farms. CArlos, my partner has friends that work on the farms and has introduced me to these people. So this gentleman sitting next to me on the airplane, who really seems to have good intentions told me that they will travel to a farm and tour the facility. I can tell you that I was just at one of these farms about three hours ago, and I am unsure if he will see what I saw and have seen. Typically the workers get $60 per month, doing really miserable work. They prefer younger people doing the work because they tend to be more happy with the wage and don't complain. If there are any labor laws, I cannot see any being enforced.

I told this gentleman my experience with fair trade and he was pretty open minded about it. I told him that I too would keep an open mind, but asked him to do himself a favor and find one of the workers doing the sh!t work and ask them how much they get paid. Carlos informed me that this was sort of futile because the people are very timid and would be afraid to talk, or get in trouble. But they talk to Carlos. Marta, one of his friends, works at Vida Joven - New Life, not only is it fair trade, organically certified, but it's also part of a Christian mission. Marta told Carlos of the conditions the wages and how it all worked by favoritism. This isn't to pick on a Christian mission, but to show that this way of doing business is so endemic you cannot escape it.

The economics of the situation really force the wages to be at such a rate. The coffee leaves the country at such an incredibly low price that to stay competitive, and provide the escalating margin from the price of the bean at the time of picking, to the price of that bean when it's in a cup of coffee from Starbucks at $3.50.

Now don't get me wrong, I am as much of a capitalist as anyone else, but I do really despise hypocrisy and the feel good efforts of the beautiful people that buy this stuff. I also have heard (never seen) that fair trade is responsible for building some schools. NOt sure if that balances out for the kids in the fields picking the coffee. I really do try and keep an open mind on this but have yet to see any true bit of evidence in my travels here that demonstrates that fair trade isn't anything but a sham for charging more for a cup of coffee, and a lot of people feeling good about doing it.
SuperRobotWars
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1/31/2011 5:50:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Are you referring to those who claim tat they will be paying the workers more but in all truth they will take the increased amount of money charged on the final product and put it in their own pockets still leaving the primary source of labor on the low end of the stick?
Minister Of Trolling
: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
:
: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.
innomen
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1/31/2011 5:52:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/31/2011 5:50:23 PM, SuperRobotWars wrote:
Are you referring to those who claim tat they will be paying the workers more but in all truth they will take the increased amount of money charged on the final product and put it in their own pockets still leaving the primary source of labor on the low end of the stick?

Essentially. Although i do think more money does filter further down, but it never really gets to the person picking the beans.
askbob
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1/31/2011 5:57:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Free trade or fair trade is a bunch of shitt?
Me -Phil left the site in my charge. I have a recorded phone conversation to prove it.
kohai -If you're the owner, then do something useful like ip block him and get us away from juggle and on a dofferent host!
Me -haha you apparently don't know my history
Kohai - Maybe not, but that doesn't matter! You shoukd still listen to your community and quit being a tyrrant!
Me - i was being completely sarcastic
Kohai - then u misrepresented yourself by impersonating the owner—a violation of the tos
SuperRobotWars
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1/31/2011 5:58:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/31/2011 5:52:44 PM, innomen wrote:
At 1/31/2011 5:50:23 PM, SuperRobotWars wrote:
Are you referring to those who claim tat they will be paying the workers more but in all truth they will take the increased amount of money charged on the final product and put it in their own pockets still leaving the primary source of labor on the low end of the stick?


Essentially. Although i do think more money does filter further down, but it never really gets to the person picking the beans.

I think that if the bean pickers could have control over the shipping they would be capable of increasing he amount of money they make per bean. The issue is the people picking the beans do not have enough funds to get started in the shipping of their products.
Minister Of Trolling
: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
:
: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.
Danielle
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1/31/2011 7:22:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Innomen these workers are merely a living example of the voluntary contract between employer and employee. Nobody is forcing them to take these jobs. Capitalism rocks!
President of DDO
mongoose
Posts: 3,500
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1/31/2011 7:53:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
What system do you think would be better for these people?
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
mongoose
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1/31/2011 7:58:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Remembering that somebody made a comment about a poorer South American country in one of my debates, I went back to look for it, and it was by you:

"In a trip to Central America i had the occasion to spend time with some villagers in Matagalpa Nicaragua. They told us that the T-Shirt company was shut down because Americans didn't approve of their working conditions. Most of these people made about $80 per month. It sounds terrible, and i wouldn't promote this sort of job, but...they worked in an air conditioned factory - that's a really big deal to them. They also lost their jobs and now had nothing, but some were able to get jobs as coffee pickers. Now that is horrible work, under terrible conditions for $60. per month.

It's easy for us to sit on high and make these value judgments, but we don't know the whole story most of the time."

Capitalism would have gotten them the better jobs.
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
Caramel
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2/1/2011 10:54:59 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/31/2011 7:58:20 PM, mongoose wrote:
Remembering that somebody made a comment about a poorer South American country in one of my debates, I went back to look for it, and it was by you:

"In a trip to Central America i had the occasion to spend time with some villagers in Matagalpa Nicaragua. They told us that the T-Shirt company was shut down because Americans didn't approve of their working conditions. Most of these people made about $80 per month. It sounds terrible, and i wouldn't promote this sort of job, but...they worked in an air conditioned factory - that's a really big deal to them. They also lost their jobs and now had nothing, but some were able to get jobs as coffee pickers. Now that is horrible work, under terrible conditions for $60. per month.

It's easy for us to sit on high and make these value judgments, but we don't know the whole story most of the time."

Capitalism would have gotten them the better jobs.

Yeah like Mickey D's "would you like fries with that?"
no comment
PARADIGM_L0ST
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2/1/2011 1:39:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Now don't get me wrong, I am as much of a capitalist as anyone else, but I do really despise hypocrisy and the feel good efforts of the beautiful people that buy this stuff. I also have heard (never seen) that fair trade is responsible for building some schools. NOt sure if that balances out for the kids in the fields picking the coffee. I really do try and keep an open mind on this but have yet to see any true bit of evidence in my travels here that demonstrates that fair trade isn't anything but a sham for charging more for a cup of coffee, and a lot of people feeling good about doing it.:

There is a fundamental difference between corporatism and capitalism. Corporatism is the exploitation of its workers, and is the bastardization of capitalism.

Often when people attack capitalism, what they're actually attacking is corporatism because they don't know the difference.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
askbob
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2/1/2011 2:06:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I don't know why we think that every country equals ours in terms of standard of living. For pity's sake.

Eventually they will if the world continues on utilizing free trade.
Me -Phil left the site in my charge. I have a recorded phone conversation to prove it.
kohai -If you're the owner, then do something useful like ip block him and get us away from juggle and on a dofferent host!
Me -haha you apparently don't know my history
Kohai - Maybe not, but that doesn't matter! You shoukd still listen to your community and quit being a tyrrant!
Me - i was being completely sarcastic
Kohai - then u misrepresented yourself by impersonating the owner—a violation of the tos
innomen
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2/1/2011 8:12:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Apparently there is a little confusion. I am saying Fair Trade, not Free Trade. Fair trade in theory, is supposed to be a product line that endorses a cooperative that is committed to the welfare of the workers that are in the production of a given crop typically of a third world origin.

My point is only that the objective is not met from my expereice, and that paying extra for coffee with the hopes that the additional money will go toward the welfare of the poor is a wasted bit of your resources.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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2/1/2011 8:31:57 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/1/2011 8:12:37 PM, innomen wrote:
Apparently there is a little confusion. I am saying Fair Trade, not Free Trade. Fair trade in theory, is supposed to be a product line that endorses a cooperative that is committed to the welfare of the workers that are in the production of a given crop typically of a third world origin.

My point is only that the objective is not met from my expereice, and that paying extra for coffee with the hopes that the additional money will go toward the welfare of the poor is a wasted bit of your resources.

I see what you're saying, and I'm not denying that fair trade has its problems. However it wasn't only established to ensure that workers get paid better (and they do -- if the farmers treat them like sh!t now, then imagine how they would otherwise). Other countries don't have labor laws like in the U.S., so people buy fair trade to "feel good about themselves" when they want to know that they are buying from employers who don't treat their employees like sweatshop workers overseas. Under fair trade guidelines, all aspects of trade and production are open to public accountability. As such they employ equal-opportunity practices and usually keep their workplaces healthy and in safe conditions. Of course nothing is picture perfect and people get around this all the time, but yeah it's not just about the money. Like I said I'm sure the workers would get paid even less otherwise though.
President of DDO
askbob
Posts: 7,254
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2/1/2011 8:54:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/1/2011 8:12:37 PM, innomen wrote:
Apparently there is a little confusion. I am saying Fair Trade, not Free Trade. Fair trade in theory, is supposed to be a product line that endorses a cooperative that is committed to the welfare of the workers that are in the production of a given crop typically of a third world origin.

My point is only that the objective is not met from my expereice, and that paying extra for coffee with the hopes that the additional money will go toward the welfare of the poor is a wasted bit of your resources.

ahh then I agree. I never gave a crap about all that fair crap anyway so long as it's cheaper.
Me -Phil left the site in my charge. I have a recorded phone conversation to prove it.
kohai -If you're the owner, then do something useful like ip block him and get us away from juggle and on a dofferent host!
Me -haha you apparently don't know my history
Kohai - Maybe not, but that doesn't matter! You shoukd still listen to your community and quit being a tyrrant!
Me - i was being completely sarcastic
Kohai - then u misrepresented yourself by impersonating the owner—a violation of the tos
innomen
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2/1/2011 9:00:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/1/2011 8:31:57 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 2/1/2011 8:12:37 PM, innomen wrote:
Apparently there is a little confusion. I am saying Fair Trade, not Free Trade. Fair trade in theory, is supposed to be a product line that endorses a cooperative that is committed to the welfare of the workers that are in the production of a given crop typically of a third world origin.

My point is only that the objective is not met from my experience, and that paying extra for coffee with the hopes that the additional money will go toward the welfare of the poor is a wasted bit of your resources.

I see what you're saying, and I'm not denying that fair trade has its problems. However it wasn't only established to ensure that workers get paid better (and they do -- if the farmers treat them like sh!t now, then imagine how they would otherwise). Other countries don't have labor laws like in the U.S., so people buy fair trade to "feel good about themselves" when they want to know that they are buying from employers who don't treat their employees like sweatshop workers overseas. Under fair trade guidelines, all aspects of trade and production are open to public accountability. As such they employ equal-opportunity practices and usually keep their workplaces healthy and in safe conditions. Of course nothing is picture perfect and people get around this all the time, but yeah it's not just about the money. Like I said I'm sure the workers would get paid even less otherwise though.

I am unsure that you have an accurate assumption that those who are working for a non fair trade corporate entity are being treated better or worse than those who are working for a local farmer that is a member of the co-op. It is endemic of most third world countries to operate on a basis of corruption, and your faith in accountability in these places is really naive. I have yet to see a good demonstration of fair trade making any tangible difference in the lives of the workers. I am also unsure of the economic viability of a true system of what is envisioned with fair trade. To truly raise the the working conditions of the laborers and perhaps improve their wages the price of coffee would be at such a price that the market would not bear.

BTW my original post was made under the influence of a very odd tea that made me loopy, and very emotional ;-)
SuperRobotWars
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2/2/2011 5:48:53 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/1/2011 9:00:03 PM, innomen wrote:
At 2/1/2011 8:31:57 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 2/1/2011 8:12:37 PM, innomen wrote:
Apparently there is a little confusion. I am saying Fair Trade, not Free Trade. Fair trade in theory, is supposed to be a product line that endorses a cooperative that is committed to the welfare of the workers that are in the production of a given crop typically of a third world origin.

My point is only that the objective is not met from my experience, and that paying extra for coffee with the hopes that the additional money will go toward the welfare of the poor is a wasted bit of your resources.

I see what you're saying, and I'm not denying that fair trade has its problems. However it wasn't only established to ensure that workers get paid better (and they do -- if the farmers treat them like sh!t now, then imagine how they would otherwise). Other countries don't have labor laws like in the U.S., so people buy fair trade to "feel good about themselves" when they want to know that they are buying from employers who don't treat their employees like sweatshop workers overseas. Under fair trade guidelines, all aspects of trade and production are open to public accountability. As such they employ equal-opportunity practices and usually keep their workplaces healthy and in safe conditions. Of course nothing is picture perfect and people get around this all the time, but yeah it's not just about the money. Like I said I'm sure the workers would get paid even less otherwise though.

I am unsure that you have an accurate assumption that those who are working for a non fair trade corporate entity are being treated better or worse than those who are working for a local farmer that is a member of the co-op. It is endemic of most third world countries to operate on a basis of corruption, and your faith in accountability in these places is really naive. I have yet to see a good demonstration of fair trade making any tangible difference in the lives of the workers. I am also unsure of the economic viability of a true system of what is envisioned with fair trade. To truly raise the the working conditions of the laborers and perhaps improve their wages the price of coffee would be at such a price that the market would not bear.

BTW my original post was made under the influence of a very odd tea that made me loopy, and very emotional ;-)

Don't tell me it was Jamaican tea?
Minister Of Trolling
: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
:
: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.
innomen
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2/2/2011 6:35:30 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/2/2011 5:48:53 AM, SuperRobotWars wrote:
At 2/1/2011 9:00:03 PM, innomen wrote:
At 2/1/2011 8:31:57 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 2/1/2011 8:12:37 PM, innomen wrote:
Apparently there is a little confusion. I am saying Fair Trade, not Free Trade. Fair trade in theory, is supposed to be a product line that endorses a cooperative that is committed to the welfare of the workers that are in the production of a given crop typically of a third world origin.

My point is only that the objective is not met from my experience, and that paying extra for coffee with the hopes that the additional money will go toward the welfare of the poor is a wasted bit of your resources.

I see what you're saying, and I'm not denying that fair trade has its problems. However it wasn't only established to ensure that workers get paid better (and they do -- if the farmers treat them like sh!t now, then imagine how they would otherwise). Other countries don't have labor laws like in the U.S., so people buy fair trade to "feel good about themselves" when they want to know that they are buying from employers who don't treat their employees like sweatshop workers overseas. Under fair trade guidelines, all aspects of trade and production are open to public accountability. As such they employ equal-opportunity practices and usually keep their workplaces healthy and in safe conditions. Of course nothing is picture perfect and people get around this all the time, but yeah it's not just about the money. Like I said I'm sure the workers would get paid even less otherwise though.

I am unsure that you have an accurate assumption that those who are working for a non fair trade corporate entity are being treated better or worse than those who are working for a local farmer that is a member of the co-op. It is endemic of most third world countries to operate on a basis of corruption, and your faith in accountability in these places is really naive. I have yet to see a good demonstration of fair trade making any tangible difference in the lives of the workers. I am also unsure of the economic viability of a true system of what is envisioned with fair trade. To truly raise the the working conditions of the laborers and perhaps improve their wages the price of coffee would be at such a price that the market would not bear.

BTW my original post was made under the influence of a very odd tea that made me loopy, and very emotional ;-)

Don't tell me it was Jamaican tea?

dunno, it was a weird color and thick. Tasted kind of sweet and herby, and made me feel really good at first, then just wacky.
Caramel
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2/2/2011 8:14:26 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Sounds like fair trade is another leftist policy to try and soften the blow of capitalism to the working class. Yeah that doesn't work. Regulations usually just make it harder for smaller firms to enter the market and the larger firms don't have to treat their workers well or pay them very much when they aren't competing with these smaller firms.
no comment
Veridas
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2/2/2011 4:57:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/31/2011 5:41:46 PM, innomen wrote:
I have known this for some time now, but have my occasional spots of reinforcement.

I am sitting here in a very small hotel room in the hills of Matagalpa Nicaragua, which is prime coffee country. It's my fourth time to the country, and my third time here. This is where my partner is from, and where his family live.

So on the way here I was sitting next to someone who was going to a seminar in the capital on investing in fair trade. Now my previous experience has been that the money never gets to the people that are picking the coffee. A little bit f it does indeed get to the local farmers, but they treat their workers as bad or worse than the corporate farms. CArlos, my partner has friends that work on the farms and has introduced me to these people. So this gentleman sitting next to me on the airplane, who really seems to have good intentions told me that they will travel to a farm and tour the facility. I can tell you that I was just at one of these farms about three hours ago, and I am unsure if he will see what I saw and have seen. Typically the workers get $60 per month, doing really miserable work. They prefer younger people doing the work because they tend to be more happy with the wage and don't complain. If there are any labor laws, I cannot see any being enforced.

I told this gentleman my experience with fair trade and he was pretty open minded about it. I told him that I too would keep an open mind, but asked him to do himself a favor and find one of the workers doing the sh!t work and ask them how much they get paid. Carlos informed me that this was sort of futile because the people are very timid and would be afraid to talk, or get in trouble. But they talk to Carlos. Marta, one of his friends, works at Vida Joven - New Life, not only is it fair trade, organically certified, but it's also part of a Christian mission. Marta told Carlos of the conditions the wages and how it all worked by favoritism. This isn't to pick on a Christian mission, but to show that this way of doing business is so endemic you cannot escape it.

The economics of the situation really force the wages to be at such a rate. The coffee leaves the country at such an incredibly low price that to stay competitive, and provide the escalating margin from the price of the bean at the time of picking, to the price of that bean when it's in a cup of coffee from Starbucks at $3.50.

Now don't get me wrong, I am as much of a capitalist as anyone else, but I do really despise hypocrisy and the feel good efforts of the beautiful people that buy this stuff. I also have heard (never seen) that fair trade is responsible for building some schools. NOt sure if that balances out for the kids in the fields picking the coffee. I really do try and keep an open mind on this but have yet to see any true bit of evidence in my travels here that demonstrates that fair trade isn't anything but a sham for charging more for a cup of coffee, and a lot of people feeling good about doing it.

I spent about a year working for The Co-operative Group a couple of sun-laps ago, and sh!t, I could have told you this.

Just looking at the products and doing the math reveals massive flaws in the whole fair trade scheme. Increasing a farmer's wage by two or three pence per week does not make it "fair" nor for that matter does it make it "more ethical."

The office I worked in was pretty much represensitive of the entire area of the country, and they basically told me that they charge more in order to ensure that coffee farmers get a better deal, but was met with a blank when I pointed out that farmers may get a better deal but the labourers they employ don't. It's like seeing interns get abused and deciding to give bonuses to middle management as a reaction.

As much as you have to take into consideration the state of the local economy, how much their money will actually be worth compared to, say, the same job paid in another country or comparing it to another job in the same country that's paid the same wage, the labourers and muscle don't tend to get a fair deal by anyone's standards anyway, simply because they're not technically farmers so people don't associate a labourer with the person who harvests your coffee beans.
What fresh dickery is the internet up to today?
FREEDO
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2/3/2011 2:41:31 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/1/2011 9:00:03 PM, innomen wrote:
BTW my original post was made under the influence of a very odd tea that made me loopy, and very emotional ;-)

Happy 5,000th post.
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darkkermit
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2/3/2011 1:48:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
If one increases the wages, then firms have to cut back on employees, thus causing unemployment and more problems for these people.
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Ore_Ele
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2/3/2011 3:24:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/31/2011 7:22:58 PM, theLwerd wrote:
Innomen these workers are merely a living example of the voluntary contract between employer and employee. Nobody is forcing them to take these jobs. Capitalism rocks!

Yeah, exploitation or starvation, it totally rocks!!

I mean, you can work your tail off and make $60 a month, or have no job and make $0 a month. So many opportunities!

Or you could start your own farm! Wait, while you are making only $60 a month, there is no way you can afford to do that...

Well, you could get a loan to cover the costs! Wait, investors are not going to invest in you because there are already other farms that are established that they can invest in and have lower risk for their returns...

Well, there is...um...?
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Ore_Ele
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2/3/2011 3:32:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/3/2011 1:48:18 PM, darkkermit wrote:
If one increases the wages, then firms have to cut back on employees, thus causing unemployment and more problems for these people.

Not if they are making a lot of money to begin with, and the wage raises are universal.

If a farmer has to raise wages, then so long as he is still making money, he will do it. If he cuts workers, then less work will get done and he will have less product to sell, thus resulting in even less money. Since his goal is to make money, such an action would be counter productive.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
SuperRobotWars
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2/3/2011 4:47:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The only way these farmers will ever be able to make more money is to have government standardize a minimum wage for most of these nations do not, and if government standardizes a minimum wage companies would have to pay them more, and this fair trade fiasco can go out the window. In one of my previous posts I mentioned how the fair trade is actually done by the individual companies to get you to pay more and to pocket the excess you have payed and still leaving the primary sources of labor on the low ends of the stick. The labor has to go to government to get a standardized wage so they don't get abused by foreign corporations (as is currently happening), the issue is that the governments these people work under tend to receive payouts from the overseas corporations so they can continue to abuse locals who they make work. In the end these actions shall work against the interests of these nations for when the resources belonging to the nations are used up they will simply leave and find another supplier for their resources, and the nation before will have no corporate infrastructure that is not based on the foreign corporations to maintain their economy and will surely fall into chaos and disarray (even more so if they already are). The standardization of wage can repel many foreign industries (all except for the most productive) and stimulate industry at home due to necessity (rather than the shock of every foreign business leaving at once and no longer having the resources to begin the construction of industry at home) to create these industries and in doing so they gain infrastructure not entirely based around foreign nations, as well as in increase in overall standards of living within their nation.
Minister Of Trolling
: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
:
: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.
juvanya
Posts: 613
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2/6/2011 2:14:46 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I just bought fair trade chocolate imported from Ghana. It was delicious.

I was actually just thinking "What if its all a lie to sell chocolate for a higher price..." But it was pretty good chocolate and worth the $3.75 (+$0.26 protection money) either way. Also, it was from a coop farmers union, so I doubt it is fraudulent...unless it lies outright...
juvanya
Posts: 613
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2/6/2011 2:15:23 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/3/2011 4:47:02 PM, SuperRobotWars wrote:
The only way these farmers will ever be able to make more money is to have government standardize a minimum wage for most of these nations do not, and if government standardizes a minimum wage companies would have to pay them more, and this fair trade fiasco can go out the window. In one of my previous posts I mentioned how the fair trade is actually done by the individual companies to get you to pay more and to pocket the excess you have payed and still leaving the primary sources of labor on the low ends of the stick. The labor has to go to government to get a standardized wage so they don't get abused by foreign corporations (as is currently happening), the issue is that the governments these people work under tend to receive payouts from the overseas corporations so they can continue to abuse locals who they make work. In the end these actions shall work against the interests of these nations for when the resources belonging to the nations are used up they will simply leave and find another supplier for their resources, and the nation before will have no corporate infrastructure that is not based on the foreign corporations to maintain their economy and will surely fall into chaos and disarray (even more so if they already are). The standardization of wage can repel many foreign industries (all except for the most productive) and stimulate industry at home due to necessity (rather than the shock of every foreign business leaving at once and no longer having the resources to begin the construction of industry at home) to create these industries and in doing so they gain infrastructure not entirely based around foreign nations, as well as in increase in overall standards of living within their nation.

Minimum wage kills jobs.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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2/6/2011 6:09:10 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/6/2011 2:15:23 AM, juvanya wrote:
At 2/3/2011 4:47:02 PM, SuperRobotWars wrote:
The only way these farmers will ever be able to make more money is to have government standardize a minimum wage for most of these nations do not, and if government standardizes a minimum wage companies would have to pay them more, and this fair trade fiasco can go out the window. In one of my previous posts I mentioned how the fair trade is actually done by the individual companies to get you to pay more and to pocket the excess you have payed and still leaving the primary sources of labor on the low ends of the stick. The labor has to go to government to get a standardized wage so they don't get abused by foreign corporations (as is currently happening), the issue is that the governments these people work under tend to receive payouts from the overseas corporations so they can continue to abuse locals who they make work. In the end these actions shall work against the interests of these nations for when the resources belonging to the nations are used up they will simply leave and find another supplier for their resources, and the nation before will have no corporate infrastructure that is not based on the foreign corporations to maintain their economy and will surely fall into chaos and disarray (even more so if they already are). The standardization of wage can repel many foreign industries (all except for the most productive) and stimulate industry at home due to necessity (rather than the shock of every foreign business leaving at once and no longer having the resources to begin the construction of industry at home) to create these industries and in doing so they gain infrastructure not entirely based around foreign nations, as well as in increase in overall standards of living within their nation.

Minimum wage kills jobs.

It's also a completely unrealistic expectation for a third world country.
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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2/6/2011 8:05:11 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/6/2011 6:09:10 AM, innomen wrote:
At 2/6/2011 2:15:23 AM, juvanya wrote:
At 2/3/2011 4:47:02 PM, SuperRobotWars wrote:
The only way these farmers will ever be able to make more money is to have government standardize a minimum wage for most of these nations do not, and if government standardizes a minimum wage companies would have to pay them more, and this fair trade fiasco can go out the window. In one of my previous posts I mentioned how the fair trade is actually done by the individual companies to get you to pay more and to pocket the excess you have payed and still leaving the primary sources of labor on the low ends of the stick. The labor has to go to government to get a standardized wage so they don't get abused by foreign corporations (as is currently happening), the issue is that the governments these people work under tend to receive payouts from the overseas corporations so they can continue to abuse locals who they make work. In the end these actions shall work against the interests of these nations for when the resources belonging to the nations are used up they will simply leave and find another supplier for their resources, and the nation before will have no corporate infrastructure that is not based on the foreign corporations to maintain their economy and will surely fall into chaos and disarray (even more so if they already are). The standardization of wage can repel many foreign industries (all except for the most productive) and stimulate industry at home due to necessity (rather than the shock of every foreign business leaving at once and no longer having the resources to begin the construction of industry at home) to create these industries and in doing so they gain infrastructure not entirely based around foreign nations, as well as in increase in overall standards of living within their nation.

Minimum wage kills jobs.

It's also a completely unrealistic expectation for a third world country.

Well if we had the min wage at your $60 or such, then in order to compete in giving jobs they would have to give more than that. And even if not at least they get at least that much.
Global competition isn't really compatible with local fairness tho.

I wont say anything to mom abut the math cause she wont buy anything that isn't fair trade (even chocolate for a while which was bad cause fiar trade chocolate is apparently disgusting, fruity flavored dark chocolate shiit.)

What really needs done to help them is increase our standards, pay, and yes, price, then our workers are treated more 'fairly' then the other people can still compete and pay the workers better, thus that becomes more 'fair' no place here would do such a thing tho because its all about competition and capitalistic greed...
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave