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Trickle-down Economics

rogue
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2/2/2011 10:00:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
When have they ever worked in history? I also don't understand why some people want to cut social programs. Shouldn't we be cutting taxes for people who can't pay them? Shouldn't we be helping those who can't buy things to be able to live? If more people are able to buy products, and of course will because they need them, people who would be benefitted from trickle-down economics will benefit anyway. Trickel-down economics benefits those who are already very well-off and the money they get is not guaranteed to go into creating new jobs. If we help those who cannot survive, they will buy more, which will benefit companies which can create new jobs, and then they can create new jobs. Meanwhile, we aren't just leaving people who have nothing to starve.
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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2/2/2011 10:08:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/2/2011 10:00:01 PM, rogue wrote:
I also don't understand why some people want to cut social programs. Shouldn't we be helping those who can't buy things to be able to live?

Scenario 1:
Someone needs a steady source of income for their steady costs. You constantly steal that income from others in order to supply this income.

Scenario 2:
Someone needs a steady source of income for their steady costs. That person exchanges their labor with others for that income.

The difference is that under Scenario 1, the individual becomes a leech on society, while under Scenario 2, the individual becomes a producer in society. Paying people to do nothing is counterproductive. For temporary unemployment protection, it is better that an individual calculates that unemployment may come at any time and (a) participate in a worker's collusion in which a group of friends pledges unemployment protection for each other, (b) purchase private unemployment insurance, or (c) save their own money for such a potential calamity. Under all three suggestions is the worker protected and likely to seek work.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Caramel
Posts: 855
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2/2/2011 11:34:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Scenario 1:
Someone needs a steady source of income for their steady costs. You constantly steal that income from others in order to supply this income.

Scenario 2:
Someone needs a steady source of income for their steady costs. That person exchanges their labor with others for that income.

Scenario 3: Someone doesn't need a steady source of income for thier steady costs.
no comment
Yvette
Posts: 859
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2/3/2011 12:35:54 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/2/2011 10:22:55 PM, Sieben wrote:
Ireland, the happiest country in the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Would you like some facts with that?

Ireland is not the happiest country in the world. I haven't seen one list of "happiest countries" with Ireland on it. I pay attention, since I practically worship Scandinavia.

http://www.forbes.com...
http://www.financialjesus.com...
http://travel.yahoo.com...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com...
http://www.travelfront.com...
http://www.etftrends.com...
http://abcnews.go.com...
http://articles.cnn.com...

Note that the countries at the top have high taxes and welfare states. I haven't even bothered looking at most of those links, so some of them might use the same sources.

I quote:

http://www.forbes.com...

"They are all borderline socialist states, with generous welfare benefits and lots of redistribution of wealth. Yet they don't let that socialism cross the line into autocracy. Civil liberties are abundant (consider decriminalized drugs and prostitution in the Netherlands). There are few restrictions on the flow of capital or of labor. Legatum's scholars point out that Denmark, for example, has little job protection, but generous unemployment benefits. So business owners can keep the right number of workers, while workers can have a safety net while they muck around looking for that fulfilling job...joining Norway in the top 10 prosperous countries are its Scandinavian sisters Denmark, Finland and Sweden, with equally small and civilized Switzerland and the Netherlands also in the club."<br>
In the middle of moving to Washington. 8D

"If God does not exist, then chocolate causing cancer is only true for the society that has evidence for that." --GodSands
Yvette
Posts: 859
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2/3/2011 12:36:50 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/2/2011 11:34:12 PM, Caramel wrote:
Scenario 1:
Someone needs a steady source of income for their steady costs. You constantly steal that income from others in order to supply this income.

Scenario 2:
Someone needs a steady source of income for their steady costs. That person exchanges their labor with others for that income.

Scenario 3: Someone doesn't need a steady source of income for thier steady costs.

Scenario 4: He could answer her question instead of evading it with extreme oversimplifications.
In the middle of moving to Washington. 8D

"If God does not exist, then chocolate causing cancer is only true for the society that has evidence for that." --GodSands
belle
Posts: 4,113
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2/3/2011 1:05:54 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/3/2011 12:36:50 AM, Yvette wrote:
Scenario 4: He could answer her question instead of evading it with extreme oversimplifications.

how did he evade the question? by not agreeing with you? lol...

the idea behind trickle down economics is that if entrepreneurs have money, they start business, and businesses create jobs. job creation means that poor people can get paid for their labor instead of being poor. this also increases the total amount of stuff that is being produced, thus increasing the amount of goods available to everyone.

on the other hand, high taxation to fund large unemployment programs shifts money to a group of people that aren't producing anything and discourages those at higher income brackets from becoming more productive (and/or causes them to try harder to evade paying taxes lol). the incentives get scrambled, which leads to undesirable side effects.

i can also see how it could just be used as an excuse to funnel money to the rich buddies of legislators however... so it really depends on the specific program. reagan's implementation, for example, was fatally flawed by his insistence that decreasing taxes on the wealthy would have such a drastic impact on productivity that it would actually increase government revenue. a liiiiiiiiiiiittle overly optimistic there lol.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
Yvette
Posts: 859
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2/3/2011 2:09:18 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/3/2011 1:05:54 AM, belle wrote:
At 2/3/2011 12:36:50 AM, Yvette wrote:
Scenario 4: He could answer her question instead of evading it with extreme oversimplifications.

how did he evade the question? by not agreeing with you? lol...

I answered how he evaded the question by finishing my sentence with stating that he gave an extreme oversimplification. The original post's question was, "when has it ever worked in history"? I'm not personally denying it's never worked in history, it possibly has (as far as I have seen the data is that it isn't effective, however). But you really should think--before typing--about the fact that he didn't answer her question. Neither has anyone, yourself included.

the idea behind trickle down economics is that if entrepreneurs have money, they start business, and businesses create jobs. job creation means that poor people can get paid for their labor instead of being poor. this also increases the total amount of stuff that is being produced, thus increasing the amount of goods available to everyone.

We all know what the idea is. She asked when it has worked in history. I suggest reputable, credible sources.

on the other hand, high taxation to fund large unemployment programs shifts money to a group of people that aren't producing anything and discourages those at higher income brackets from becoming more productive (and/or causes them to try harder to evade paying taxes lol). the incentives get scrambled, which leads to undesirable side effects.

Did you read my response to Sieben? Where I pointed out that near-socialist, high-taxation, welfare state countries were at the top of the human development index, at the top of the happiest people in the world index, etc etc? These countries are a good example of the very opposite working very well.

i can also see how it could just be used as an excuse to funnel money to the rich buddies of legislators however... so it really depends on the specific program. reagan's implementation, for example, was fatally flawed by his insistence that decreasing taxes on the wealthy would have such a drastic impact on productivity that it would actually increase government revenue. a liiiiiiiiiiiittle overly optimistic there lol.

Okay. But still waiting for an answer to her original question.
In the middle of moving to Washington. 8D

"If God does not exist, then chocolate causing cancer is only true for the society that has evidence for that." --GodSands
Yvette
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2/3/2011 2:17:27 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/3/2011 1:51:57 AM, FREEDO wrote:


Clearly, they are living in a nightmarish swirl of communism. They don't even treat their garbage men like garbage! What's wrong with them! Equality? What is this bullshjt?!

"Denmark, with a mixed market capitalist economy and a large welfare state,[6] ranks as having the world's highest level of income equality 'Gini Coefficient'. Retrieved 01-23-11.. Denmark has the best business climate in the world, according to the U.S. business magazine Forbes.[7] From 2006 to 2008, surveys[8] ranked Denmark as "the happiest place in the world", based on standards of health, welfare and education. The 2009 Global Peace Index survey ranks Denmark as the second most peaceful country in the world, after New Zealand.[9] In 2009, Denmark was ranked as one of the least corrupt countries in the world according to the Corruption Perceptions Index, ranking second only to New Zealand.[10] In 2010, Transparency International ranked it as the least corrupt country in the world, in a three-way tie with New Zealand and Singapore.[11]"

COMMUNISTS. FWCKING COMMUNISTS!!!!1
In the middle of moving to Washington. 8D

"If God does not exist, then chocolate causing cancer is only true for the society that has evidence for that." --GodSands
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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2/3/2011 2:20:34 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/2/2011 10:00:01 PM, rogue wrote:
When have they ever worked in history? I also don't understand why some people want to cut social programs. Shouldn't we be cutting taxes for people who can't pay them? Shouldn't we be helping those who can't buy things to be able to live? If more people are able to buy products, and of course will because they need them, people who would be benefitted from trickle-down economics will benefit anyway. Trickel-down economics benefits those who are already very well-off and the money they get is not guaranteed to go into creating new jobs. If we help those who cannot survive, they will buy more, which will benefit companies which can create new jobs, and then they can create new jobs. Meanwhile, we aren't just leaving people who have nothing to starve.

I want to see who's gonna starve with trickle down economics. Get on craigslist or something theres gotta be a job somewhere.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
lewis20
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2/3/2011 2:25:49 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/3/2011 2:17:27 AM, Yvette wrote:
At 2/3/2011 1:51:57 AM, FREEDO wrote:


Clearly, they are living in a nightmarish swirl of communism. They don't even treat their garbage men like garbage! What's wrong with them! Equality? What is this bullshjt?!

"Denmark, with a mixed market capitalist economy and a large welfare state,[6] ranks as having the world's highest level of income equality 'Gini Coefficient'. Retrieved 01-23-11.. Denmark has the best business climate in the world, according to the U.S. business magazine Forbes.[7] From 2006 to 2008, surveys[8] ranked Denmark as "the happiest place in the world", based on standards of health, welfare and education. The 2009 Global Peace Index survey ranks Denmark as the second most peaceful country in the world, after New Zealand.[9] In 2009, Denmark was ranked as one of the least corrupt countries in the world according to the Corruption Perceptions Index, ranking second only to New Zealand.[10] In 2010, Transparency International ranked it as the least corrupt country in the world, in a three-way tie with New Zealand and Singapore.[11]"

COMMUNISTS. FWCKING COMMUNISTS!!!!1

are there not lazy people in scandonavia.. I don't get it.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
belle
Posts: 4,113
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2/3/2011 2:26:04 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/3/2011 2:20:34 AM, lewis20 wrote:
At 2/2/2011 10:00:01 PM, rogue wrote:
When have they ever worked in history? I also don't understand why some people want to cut social programs. Shouldn't we be cutting taxes for people who can't pay them? Shouldn't we be helping those who can't buy things to be able to live? If more people are able to buy products, and of course will because they need them, people who would be benefitted from trickle-down economics will benefit anyway. Trickel-down economics benefits those who are already very well-off and the money they get is not guaranteed to go into creating new jobs. If we help those who cannot survive, they will buy more, which will benefit companies which can create new jobs, and then they can create new jobs. Meanwhile, we aren't just leaving people who have nothing to starve.

I want to see who's gonna starve with trickle down economics. Get on craigslist or something theres gotta be a job somewhere.

thats evading the question lol
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
Yvette
Posts: 859
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2/3/2011 2:31:42 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Some more to add, since I'm clearly very bored right now:

One of the central flaws in "trickle down economics" is that lower and middle classes spend their money quite predictably. They put it into banks--which is practically required for economic growth--spend it on their children's education, normal homes (ie, homes which are already being built with the expectation of being bought, as opposed to homes constructed on-demand for the ultra-rich), consumer goods, etc. In order for businesses to survive, the lower and middle classes have to be buying. What's wrong with lower taxes for the people actually affecting profits?

On the other hand, money saved for corporations is considered profit. It isn't spent. There's a reason corporations downsize, cut corners, and all that other nonsense. It's to have a greater profit margin. Lower taxes for corporations don't automatically turn into more money for the less wealthy--I'd be interested in seeing a credible study that shows that money saved on corporate taxes usually goes back into the company. Otherwise, it can be assumed to go to the largely wealthy stockholders.

Finally, the wealthy are already getting unofficial, underhanded tax cuts. I suggest giving "Perfectly Legal" a good read.

A good read: http://blogs.wsj.com...
In the middle of moving to Washington. 8D

"If God does not exist, then chocolate causing cancer is only true for the society that has evidence for that." --GodSands
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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2/3/2011 2:35:47 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'd like to point out that the income gap is growing larger and larger every year, especially in America.
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fnord
belle
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2/3/2011 2:37:26 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
also for those who mention the scandinavian countries- they are among the most competitive economies in the world ( switzerland and sweden were labeled #1 and 2 last year). they're hardly "near socialist".
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
FREEDO
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2/3/2011 2:38:09 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Even if the rich getting richer makes the poor richer, there is no getting around that they are getting richer a whole lot faster than the poor. There comes a point when the gap is so large there is simply no fairness in the market any longer. The associations are no longer free if people don't have the same bargaining leverage.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Yvette
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2/3/2011 2:38:57 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/3/2011 2:20:34 AM, lewis20 wrote:
At 2/2/2011 10:00:01 PM, rogue wrote:
When have they ever worked in history? I also don't understand why some people want to cut social programs. Shouldn't we be cutting taxes for people who can't pay them? Shouldn't we be helping those who can't buy things to be able to live? If more people are able to buy products, and of course will because they need them, people who would be benefitted from trickle-down economics will benefit anyway. Trickel-down economics benefits those who are already very well-off and the money they get is not guaranteed to go into creating new jobs. If we help those who cannot survive, they will buy more, which will benefit companies which can create new jobs, and then they can create new jobs. Meanwhile, we aren't just leaving people who have nothing to starve.

I want to see who's gonna starve with trickle down economics. Get on craigslist or something theres gotta be a job somewhere.

I want to see who's gonna starve without it. She asked for historical examples, can you provide them or not?
In the middle of moving to Washington. 8D

"If God does not exist, then chocolate causing cancer is only true for the society that has evidence for that." --GodSands
FREEDO
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2/3/2011 2:39:09 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/3/2011 2:37:26 AM, belle wrote:
also for those who mention the scandinavian countries- they are among the most competitive economies in the world ( switzerland and sweden were labeled #1 and 2 last year). they're hardly "near socialist".

Denmark has the highest income equality in the world. That means it's literally the closest thing there is to Communism we have.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Yvette
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2/3/2011 2:41:16 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/3/2011 2:37:26 AM, belle wrote:
also for those who mention the scandinavian countries- they are among the most competitive economies in the world ( switzerland and sweden were labeled #1 and 2 last year). they're hardly "near socialist".

How does having a competitive economy make one less socialist? Especially when they have, if not the largest welfare programs in the world, one of the? Sweden for example has a 50-70% income tax, a large amount of regulations, and extensive welfare.

Forbes calls them "almost socialist". Do you know better than Forbes, now?

(Still waiting for historical examples.)
In the middle of moving to Washington. 8D

"If God does not exist, then chocolate causing cancer is only true for the society that has evidence for that." --GodSands
lewis20
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2/3/2011 2:44:22 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/3/2011 2:35:47 AM, FREEDO wrote:
I'd like to point out that the income gap is growing larger and larger every year, especially in America.

Increasing just as government powers keep increasing. Our problem is we think we need to bailout failed companies, that we need to cushion the economy. Let some of them fail, don't bail them out and that'd take some of your rich execs out of their tax bracket.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
lewis20
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2/3/2011 2:49:53 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/3/2011 2:38:57 AM, Yvette wrote:
At 2/3/2011 2:20:34 AM, lewis20 wrote:
At 2/2/2011 10:00:01 PM, rogue wrote:
When have they ever worked in history? I also don't understand why some people want to cut social programs. Shouldn't we be cutting taxes for people who can't pay them? Shouldn't we be helping those who can't buy things to be able to live? If more people are able to buy products, and of course will because they need them, people who would be benefitted from trickle-down economics will benefit anyway. Trickel-down economics benefits those who are already very well-off and the money they get is not guaranteed to go into creating new jobs. If we help those who cannot survive, they will buy more, which will benefit companies which can create new jobs, and then they can create new jobs. Meanwhile, we aren't just leaving people who have nothing to starve.

I want to see who's gonna starve with trickle down economics. Get on craigslist or something theres gotta be a job somewhere.

I want to see who's gonna starve without it. She asked for historical examples, can you provide them or not?

No ones gonna starve one way or another is my point.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
FREEDO
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2/3/2011 2:52:39 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/3/2011 2:49:53 AM, lewis20 wrote:
No ones gonna starve one way or another is my point.

Say what now?
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Yvette
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2/3/2011 2:57:22 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/3/2011 2:44:22 AM, lewis20 wrote:
At 2/3/2011 2:35:47 AM, FREEDO wrote:
I'd like to point out that the income gap is growing larger and larger every year, especially in America.

Increasing just as government powers keep increasing. Our problem is we think we need to bailout failed companies, that we need to cushion the economy. Let some of them fail, don't bail them out and that'd take some of your rich execs out of their tax bracket.

Uhm, sorry, but what do bailouts have to do with the trickle-down policy?
In the middle of moving to Washington. 8D

"If God does not exist, then chocolate causing cancer is only true for the society that has evidence for that." --GodSands
lewis20
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2/3/2011 2:57:29 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/3/2011 2:52:39 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 2/3/2011 2:49:53 AM, lewis20 wrote:
No ones gonna starve one way or another is my point.

Say what now?

OP mentioned leaving people to starve, I don't see how people are left starving with trickle down economics. I can see arguing equality between classes but no one is gonna starve.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
FREEDO
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2/3/2011 2:58:42 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/3/2011 2:57:29 AM, lewis20 wrote:
At 2/3/2011 2:52:39 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 2/3/2011 2:49:53 AM, lewis20 wrote:
No ones gonna starve one way or another is my point.

Say what now?

OP mentioned leaving people to starve, I don't see how people are left starving with trickle down economics. I can see arguing equality between classes but no one is gonna starve.

Do you know how many people starve in America each year?
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Yvette
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2/3/2011 3:04:39 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/3/2011 2:52:39 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 2/3/2011 2:49:53 AM, lewis20 wrote:
No ones gonna starve one way or another is my point.

Say what now?

...oh, my god, I didn't even realize how hilarious the discussion had become. I'd even gotten suckered into asking who'd starve if there was no trickle-down.

http://www.frac.org...

People starve either way, even in the U.S. Starvation deaths are infrequent but happen--and are only infrequent thanks to government spending and community outreach. Derp!

Don't mind me here, I'm just busy HERPIN' THE DERP

http://derp.blogs.exetel.com.au...
In the middle of moving to Washington. 8D

"If God does not exist, then chocolate causing cancer is only true for the society that has evidence for that." --GodSands
belle
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2/3/2011 3:05:19 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/3/2011 2:41:16 AM, Yvette wrote:
At 2/3/2011 2:37:26 AM, belle wrote:
also for those who mention the scandinavian countries- they are among the most competitive economies in the world ( switzerland and sweden were labeled #1 and 2 last year). they're hardly "near socialist".

How does having a competitive economy make one less socialist? Especially when they have, if not the largest welfare programs in the world, one of the? Sweden for example has a 50-70% income tax, a large amount of regulations, and extensive welfare.

for one thing, they enforce property rights to a large degree, which socialists generally would not recognize. they have extremely low levels of corruption and extremely high levels of government transparency. they have massive amounts of infrastructure and highly developed financial markets. they're also rated fairly highly in government debt balance (switzerland is ranked 10, i think sweden is like 25 to the US's 118).

you can't say that their universal healthcare or other "socialist" policies is what causes their financial success. their economies are more efficient and less bogged down my debt. their populations are smaller and better educated. social programs=better economy is extremely oversimplified. there are too many confounding factors between the two countries. i mean, the UK has had universal healthcare for decades and their only ranked 12 on the economic competitiveness scale. the US is 4...

also if someone calls obama a socialist, does that make him one? what does forbes have to do with anything here?
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
lewis20
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2/3/2011 3:07:01 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/3/2011 2:58:42 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 2/3/2011 2:57:29 AM, lewis20 wrote:
At 2/3/2011 2:52:39 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 2/3/2011 2:49:53 AM, lewis20 wrote:
No ones gonna starve one way or another is my point.

Say what now?

OP mentioned leaving people to starve, I don't see how people are left starving with trickle down economics. I can see arguing equality between classes but no one is gonna starve.

Do you know how many people starve in America each year?

Please enlighten me.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler