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FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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2/3/2011 2:28:29 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
A strange thought I had. According to Capitalists, it is desirable for us to be paid according to our labor because that causes people to do labor and labor needs to be done.
Here was my thought: Aren't there more things which "need" to be done besides labor? Why is labor the most important? Why choose that one specific thing as the whole principle upon how society works? Think of all the other things it could be based upon--Intelligence, for example. Imagine a society where the only way to get by in life was to be the most intelligent. If the logic behind the labor-based system is true then an intelligence-based society would lead to a considerably more intelligent society. You might then ask "how does the labor get done"? Labor would be done in a non-labor-based society in the same way the pursuit of intelligence would happen in a non-intelligence-based society; when they want to. I contend your critique that "society would fall apart due to laziness" is completely valid--but that's exactly it. Don't you see what I'm getting at? I could turn around and use the same critique with the labor-based system except about intelligence; "society would fall apart due to stupidity" AND INDEED IT IS!
Now imagine this: A society which is based on both labor and intelligence. Interesting concept, at least, right?
Lets go further still: A society where all the incentives are crafted around desirable traits from labor to intelligence to being a nice person to healthiness. Imagine a society where all these things can constantly be adjusted and fine-tuned in a scientific manner to achieve the most desired society.

Discuss.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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2/3/2011 2:59:43 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/3/2011 2:28:29 AM, FREEDO wrote:
A strange thought I had. According to Capitalists, it is desirable for us to be paid according to our labor because that causes people to do labor and labor needs to be done.

There is exchange in value for value.

Here was my thought: Aren't there more things which "need" to be done besides labor?

In what context is need and more?

Why is labor the most important?

In relation to what? Economy?

Why choose that one specific thing as the whole principle upon how society works?

Society? Modern? Societal growth? Population mass?

Think of all the other things it could be based upon--Intelligence, for example. Imagine a society where the only way to get by in life was to be the most intelligent.

Get? Get what? From whom? How?

If the logic behind the labor-based system is true then an intelligence-based society would lead to a considerably more intelligent society.

I guess, if you had some strange incorrect notion of intelligence. Also how would such a labour system work? What is a intelligence based labour system, since I presume you just took out the "labouring" part? Telekinesis?! WooooOOOOOooo.

You might then ask "how does the labor get done"? Labor would be done in a non-labor-based society in the same way the pursuit of intelligence would happen in a non-intelligence-based society; when they want to.

When they want to work? For what? To what end? To what means? Psychic food is now on the table?

I contend your critique that "society would fall apart due to laziness" is completely valid--but that's exactly it. Don't you see what I'm getting at? I could turn around and use the same critique with the labor-based system except about intelligence; "society would fall apart due to stupidity" AND INDEED IT IS!

No. Your analogy is frankly silly and non analogous. That's the problem.

Now imagine this: A society which is based on both labor and intelligence. Interesting concept, at least, right?

Not really judging by what's led to it in this post. >.< Again, what does that mean exactly? Am I 'doing intelligence'?

Lets go further still: A society where all the incentives are crafted around desirable traits from labor to intelligence to being a nice person to healthiness.

Incentive to what? From what? For what?

Imagine a society where all these things can constantly be adjusted and fine-tuned in a scientific manner to achieve the most desired society.

Since there is nothing clear, there is nothing to imagine.
belle
Posts: 4,113
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2/3/2011 3:27:02 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/3/2011 2:28:29 AM, FREEDO wrote:
A strange thought I had. According to Capitalists, it is desirable for us to be paid according to our labor because that causes people to do labor and labor needs to be done.
Here was my thought: Aren't there more things which "need" to be done besides labor? Why is labor the most important? Why choose that one specific thing as the whole principle upon how society works? Think of all the other things it could be based upon--Intelligence, for example. Imagine a society where the only way to get by in life was to be the most intelligent. If the logic behind the labor-based system is true then an intelligence-based society would lead to a considerably more intelligent society. You might then ask "how does the labor get done"? Labor would be done in a non-labor-based society in the same way the pursuit of intelligence would happen in a non-intelligence-based society; when they want to. I contend your critique that "society would fall apart due to laziness" is completely valid--but that's exactly it. Don't you see what I'm getting at? I could turn around and use the same critique with the labor-based system except about intelligence; "society would fall apart due to stupidity" AND INDEED IT IS!
Now imagine this: A society which is based on both labor and intelligence. Interesting concept, at least, right?
Lets go further still: A society where all the incentives are crafted around desirable traits from labor to intelligence to being a nice person to healthiness. Imagine a society where all these things can constantly be adjusted and fine-tuned in a scientific manner to achieve the most desired society.

Discuss.

what? lol

people can already pay people for whatever they want (assuming its not other people anyways :P). if people find intelligence valuable then they will pay for it. etc. society seems to depend on labor because most of the things we want take labor to produce. what you're proposing isn't even really different from capitalism.. you're just proposing that everyone should be an idealist and only want intellectual things rather than things that will keep them alive. awesome!?
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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2/3/2011 3:52:44 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Labor
"a. Physical or mental exertion, especially when difficult or exhausting; work"
Isn't intelligence part of mental exertion.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com...
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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2/3/2011 4:02:21 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/3/2011 3:52:44 AM, lewis20 wrote:
Labor
"a. Physical or mental exertion, especially when difficult or exhausting; work"
Isn't intelligence part of mental exertion.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com...

What do you mean? It's a requirement? Intelligence is a measure of ability in some manner or more loosely, a collection of behavioural traits rendered into the mental aspect. Intelligence as a requirement is a bit silly. For example, I don't need large muscles to find certain physical work exerting, muscle mass will change what I do find exerting though. Likewise with intelligence for some things. What that simply means is that there is a definitional framework which requires X component to be present (a mind, a body, whatever). So intelligence would be a wrong term to use.
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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2/3/2011 4:13:57 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/3/2011 4:02:21 AM, Puck wrote:
At 2/3/2011 3:52:44 AM, lewis20 wrote:
Labor
"a. Physical or mental exertion, especially when difficult or exhausting; work"
Isn't intelligence part of mental exertion.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com...

What do you mean? It's a requirement? Intelligence is a measure of ability in some manner or more loosely, a collection of behavioural traits rendered into the mental aspect. Intelligence as a requirement is a bit silly. For example, I don't need large muscles to find certain physical work exerting, muscle mass will change what I do find exerting though. Likewise with intelligence for some things. What that simply means is that there is a definitional framework which requires X component to be present (a mind, a body, whatever). So intelligence would be a wrong term to use.

ya bigger muscles make work easier, more intelligence makes mental exertion easier. All the way up to the point that the most mentally demanding jobs are those done by the most intelligent. Showing where intelligence fits into the definition of labor.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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2/3/2011 4:27:35 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/3/2011 4:13:57 AM, lewis20 wrote:

ya bigger muscles make work easier, more intelligence makes mental exertion easier. All the way up to the point that the most mentally demanding jobs are those done by the most intelligent. Showing where intelligence fits into the definition of labor.

Except it doesn't. It's not a concept that's required for a definition of labour. Now if you mean for X range of jobs, the IQ is predictively higher, then it makes sense to talk about intelligence in relation to labour types - that's not to do with labour the definition though.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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2/3/2011 4:59:49 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Now imagine this: A society which is based on both labor and intelligence. Interesting concept, at least, right?
Lets go further still: A society where all the incentives are crafted around desirable traits from labor to intelligence to being a nice person to healthiness. Imagine a society where all these things can constantly be adjusted and fine-tuned in a scientific manner to achieve the most desired society.:

Sounds like eugenics to me.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
TheAtheistAllegiance
Posts: 1,251
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2/3/2011 3:06:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/3/2011 4:59:49 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
Now imagine this: A society which is based on both labor and intelligence. Interesting concept, at least, right?
Lets go further still: A society where all the incentives are crafted around desirable traits from labor to intelligence to being a nice person to healthiness. Imagine a society where all these things can constantly be adjusted and fine-tuned in a scientific manner to achieve the most desired society.:

Sounds like eugenics to me.

I also got that vibe.
Sieben
Posts: 2,736
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2/3/2011 3:19:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/3/2011 2:28:29 AM, FREEDO wrote:
A strange thought I had. According to Capitalists, it is desirable for us to be paid according to our labor because that causes people to do labor and labor needs to be done.
Only some capitalists. Not any ancap I ever heard of.
Things that are so interesting:

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...
Grape
Posts: 989
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2/3/2011 6:14:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
You are already paid for intelligence to some extent. If you are more intelligent, you can use your intelligence to increase productivity. However, productivity an end unto itself because it is the product that creates utility. Intelligence is not valuable in itself; it must be used to produce something of value.

Also, capitalists generally do not support paying for labor. You could work very hard and get nothing done if you're incompetent enough.
Websterremembered
Posts: 95
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6/26/2012 5:11:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/3/2011 2:28:29 AM, FREEDO wrote:
A strange thought I had. According to Capitalists, it is desirable for us to be paid according to our labor because that causes people to do labor and labor needs to be done.
Here was my thought: Aren't there more things which "need" to be done besides labor? Why is labor the most important? Why choose that one specific thing as the whole principle upon how society works? Think of all the other things it could be based upon--Intelligence, for example. Imagine a society where the only way to get by in life was to be the most intelligent. If the logic behind the labor-based system is true then an intelligence-based society would lead to a considerably more intelligent society. You might then ask "how does the labor get done"? Labor would be done in a non-labor-based society in the same way the pursuit of intelligence would happen in a non-intelligence-based society; when they want to. I contend your critique that "society would fall apart due to laziness" is completely valid--but that's exactly it. Don't you see what I'm getting at? I could turn around and use the same critique with the labor-based system except about intelligence; "society would fall apart due to stupidity" AND INDEED IT IS!
Now imagine this: A society which is based on both labor and intelligence. Interesting concept, at least, right?
Lets go further still: A society where all the incentives are crafted around desirable traits from labor to intelligence to being a nice person to healthiness. Imagine a society where all these things can constantly be adjusted and fine-tuned in a scientific manner to achieve the most desired society.

Discuss.

you are completely underestimating greed, stupidity and pride, not to mention religion, dignity, and free will.
Aayu
Posts: 65
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6/27/2012 12:32:18 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/3/2011 2:28:29 AM, FREEDO wrote:

Lets go further still: A society where all the incentives are crafted around desirable traits from labor to intelligence to being a nice person to healthiness. Imagine a society where all these things can constantly be adjusted and fine-tuned in a scientific manner to achieve the most desired society.

Discuss.

That sounds freakily close to way things work now. Labour is incentivised by money, intelligence is incentivised by greater money if you enter the field where intelligence is the USP, if not, then it is commended by increasing social strature. Healthiness is closely related to happiness.

Being a nice person is.. ehh.
sadolite
Posts: 8,842
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6/28/2012 7:17:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
There are no new ideas with regard to society. They have all been tried been there done that. The same old ideas are just repackaged and sold to the stupid who learn nothing from history.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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6/29/2012 2:51:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
You aren't paid for labor, you're paid for production. Even if you're paid by the hour, you'll be fired for lack of production. If your intelligence contributes to your productivity, you'll be compensated accordingly, in additional moneys and/or job security. If hard work does, the same. We don't care about the means to the end, we care about the end.

Production compensates your desirable results. It automatically sum totals your desirable traits insofar as they are relevant.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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6/30/2012 10:13:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/29/2012 2:56:06 PM, darkkermit wrote:
this is why freedo is brilliant.

This is why I get hard nipples when I watch the muppets.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Cermank
Posts: 3,773
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7/1/2012 12:27:48 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/28/2012 7:17:40 PM, sadolite wrote:
There are no new ideas with regard to society. They have all been tried been there done that. The same old ideas are just repackaged and sold to the stupid who learn nothing from history.

You are grumpy. And old. At least virtually.

There are countless ideas that have not been tried yet. Hell, millions haven't been formulated.

Off my head, technocracy hasn't been tried yet. Plural voting, for another hasn't been tried (People can qualify for additional votes based on their education, services to society, blah blah blah).