Total Posts:52|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Islamic Economics

Mirza
Posts: 16,992
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/7/2011 5:05:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
A thread will be made somewhere later on about Islamic Economics. If someone has questions related to it, you are welcome to ask.
askbob
Posts: 7,254
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/7/2011 5:10:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
So this is a thread about a thread that hasn't been posted yet but will be posted at an unnamed date?
Me -Phil left the site in my charge. I have a recorded phone conversation to prove it.
kohai -If you're the owner, then do something useful like ip block him and get us away from juggle and on a dofferent host!
Me -haha you apparently don't know my history
Kohai - Maybe not, but that doesn't matter! You shoukd still listen to your community and quit being a tyrrant!
Me - i was being completely sarcastic
Kohai - then u misrepresented yourself by impersonating the owner—a violation of the tos
LaissezFaire
Posts: 2,050
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/7/2011 5:17:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Let's say interest is banned. I want a loan for a business or project or something, but can't get enough capital at 0% interest. So I offer to pay the lender 5% interest a year for a loan instead. I do this because money now is worth more to me than money later--I can invest in my business now, make products, sell them, and earn more than enough to pay back the loan and the interest. I'm better off after this transaction, because I couldn't have run my business and made any of that money without the initial start-up loan. The lender is better off, because he gets 5% back on his money. Society is better off, because they get the products that I wouldn't have been able to create without that loan. Why do you feel the need to interfere and make everyone worse off by stopping this transaction from occurring?
Should we subsidize education?
http://www.debate.org...

http://mises.org...

http://lewrockwell.com...

http://antiwar.com...

: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/7/2011 5:21:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/7/2011 5:17:01 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
Let's say interest is banned. I want a loan for a business or project or something, but can't get enough capital at 0% interest. So I offer to pay the lender 5% interest a year for a loan instead. I do this because money now is worth more to me than money later--I can invest in my business now, make products, sell them, and earn more than enough to pay back the loan and the interest. I'm better off after this transaction, because I couldn't have run my business and made any of that money without the initial start-up loan. The lender is better off, because he gets 5% back on his money. Society is better off, because they get the products that I wouldn't have been able to create without that loan. Why do you feel the need to interfere and make everyone worse off by stopping this transaction from occurring?

This entire scenario operates on the basis that the lenders would only lend if they earned interest since you made it very clear that they do have the money to lend in the first place. It's a circular question that will never have an answer you are satisfied with. It's simple: considering an Islamic lender would (should, allegedly) see interest as immoral, they would lend without charging interest, and the entire question becomes null and void.
President of DDO
askbob
Posts: 7,254
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/7/2011 5:28:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/7/2011 5:25:36 PM, Sieben wrote:
^Mirza is proposing Sharia law where the charging of interest is illegal, not voluntary abstained from.

Lol then no one would make loans and just save their money/invest it in things rather than loan it.

Are you saying that sharia law completely destroys a credit system? If so: LOL @ Muslims

This explains why they are stuck in the dark ages
Me -Phil left the site in my charge. I have a recorded phone conversation to prove it.
kohai -If you're the owner, then do something useful like ip block him and get us away from juggle and on a dofferent host!
Me -haha you apparently don't know my history
Kohai - Maybe not, but that doesn't matter! You shoukd still listen to your community and quit being a tyrrant!
Me - i was being completely sarcastic
Kohai - then u misrepresented yourself by impersonating the owner—a violation of the tos
Sieben
Posts: 2,736
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/7/2011 5:30:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Mirza thinks that honor would have people lend their money out. That's fine, but you can do a lot more if you can rely on markets+charity rather than just charity.
Things that are so interesting:

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/7/2011 5:32:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/7/2011 5:30:15 PM, Sieben wrote:
Mirza thinks that honor would have people lend their money out. That's fine, but you can do a lot more if you can rely on markets+charity rather than just charity.

Exactly. But their goal isn't profit -- it's bonus points from God.
President of DDO
askbob
Posts: 7,254
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/7/2011 5:32:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/7/2011 5:30:15 PM, Sieben wrote:
Mirza thinks that honor would have people lend their money out. That's fine, but you can do a lot more if you can rely on markets+charity rather than just charity.

honor? Lol

Do they believe in rejecting people for loans?
Me -Phil left the site in my charge. I have a recorded phone conversation to prove it.
kohai -If you're the owner, then do something useful like ip block him and get us away from juggle and on a dofferent host!
Me -haha you apparently don't know my history
Kohai - Maybe not, but that doesn't matter! You shoukd still listen to your community and quit being a tyrrant!
Me - i was being completely sarcastic
Kohai - then u misrepresented yourself by impersonating the owner—a violation of the tos
askbob
Posts: 7,254
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/7/2011 5:33:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/7/2011 5:32:28 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 2/7/2011 5:30:15 PM, Sieben wrote:
Mirza thinks that honor would have people lend their money out. That's fine, but you can do a lot more if you can rely on markets+charity rather than just charity.

Exactly. But their goal isn't profit -- it's bonus points from God.

Technically they are losing money when they make interest free loans

--> Inflation
Me -Phil left the site in my charge. I have a recorded phone conversation to prove it.
kohai -If you're the owner, then do something useful like ip block him and get us away from juggle and on a dofferent host!
Me -haha you apparently don't know my history
Kohai - Maybe not, but that doesn't matter! You shoukd still listen to your community and quit being a tyrrant!
Me - i was being completely sarcastic
Kohai - then u misrepresented yourself by impersonating the owner—a violation of the tos
LaissezFaire
Posts: 2,050
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/7/2011 5:34:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/7/2011 5:32:28 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 2/7/2011 5:30:15 PM, Sieben wrote:
Mirza thinks that honor would have people lend their money out. That's fine, but you can do a lot more if you can rely on markets+charity rather than just charity.

Exactly. But their goal isn't profit -- it's bonus points from God.

Most people aren't Muslims though. If this is a law, then it's necessarily aimed at people who would normally charge interest.
Should we subsidize education?
http://www.debate.org...

http://mises.org...

http://lewrockwell.com...

http://antiwar.com...

: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/7/2011 5:37:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/7/2011 5:34:39 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
At 2/7/2011 5:32:28 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 2/7/2011 5:30:15 PM, Sieben wrote:
Mirza thinks that honor would have people lend their money out. That's fine, but you can do a lot more if you can rely on markets+charity rather than just charity.

Exactly. But their goal isn't profit -- it's bonus points from God.

Most people aren't Muslims though. If this is a law, then it's necessarily aimed at people who would normally charge interest.

Many Middle Eastern countries are theocracies.
President of DDO
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/7/2011 5:45:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/7/2011 5:32:28 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 2/7/2011 5:30:15 PM, Sieben wrote:
Mirza thinks that honor would have people lend their money out. That's fine, but you can do a lot more if you can rely on markets+charity rather than just charity.

Exactly. But their goal isn't profit -- it's bonus points from God.

If the only reason you refrain from doing something is to avoid legal penalties, then you're probably not getting too many brownie points.

Plus, that nullifies the whole premise of Islamic economics. The goal of economics is to make efficient use of scarce resources to meet consumer demand. If your goal is to please God, don't pretend your silly financial system is based on sound economic reasoning.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/7/2011 5:57:09 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/7/2011 5:45:16 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 2/7/2011 5:32:28 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 2/7/2011 5:30:15 PM, Sieben wrote:
Mirza thinks that honor would have people lend their money out. That's fine, but you can do a lot more if you can rely on markets+charity rather than just charity.

Exactly. But their goal isn't profit -- it's bonus points from God.

If the only reason you refrain from doing something is to avoid legal penalties, then you're probably not getting too many brownie points.

Plus, that nullifies the whole premise of Islamic economics. The goal of economics is to make efficient use of scarce resources to meet consumer demand.

Let's stop that there. An economy (by definition) doesn't have a goal. While particular economies may have particular goals, that can vary from economy to economy. An economy that doesn't "make efficient use of scarce resources to meet consumer demand," is still an economy, it is just an inefficent one.

If your goal is to please God, don't pretend your silly financial system is based on sound economic reasoning.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Sieben
Posts: 2,736
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/7/2011 6:01:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/7/2011 5:32:28 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 2/7/2011 5:30:15 PM, Sieben wrote:
Mirza thinks that honor would have people lend their money out. That's fine, but you can do a lot more if you can rely on markets+charity rather than just charity.

Exactly. But their goal isn't profit -- it's bonus points from God.

Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu*ck i need to work on my bonus points.
Things that are so interesting:

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...
Sangers
Posts: 419
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/7/2011 6:01:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Let's stop that there. An economy (by definition) doesn't have a goal. While particular economies may have particular goals, that can vary from economy to economy. An economy that doesn't "make efficient use of scarce resources to meet consumer demand," is still an economy, it is just an inefficent one.

If your labelling an economy as an inefficient one, doesn't that mean a goal exists? o.0
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/7/2011 6:09:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/7/2011 6:01:53 PM, Sangers wrote:
Let's stop that there. An economy (by definition) doesn't have a goal. While particular economies may have particular goals, that can vary from economy to economy. An economy that doesn't "make efficient use of scarce resources to meet consumer demand," is still an economy, it is just an inefficent one.

If your labelling an economy as an inefficient one, doesn't that mean a goal exists? o.0

I was applying his definition.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/7/2011 6:20:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/7/2011 5:45:16 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
If the only reason you refrain from doing something is to avoid legal penalties, then you're probably not getting too many brownie points.

Sure. That's a theist position of morality discussion for another time though innit?

Plus, that nullifies the whole premise of Islamic economics. The goal of economics is to make efficient use of scarce resources to meet consumer demand. If your goal is to please God, don't pretend your silly financial system is based on sound economic reasoning.

Economics is the study of how particular societies manage their goods and services; how particular agents interact and value those interactions. Economics is a social science -- there isn't a goal. Just as with our debate, it seems you can't seem to wrap your head around a financial system that does not have maximizing wealth as a goal...
President of DDO
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/7/2011 6:35:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/7/2011 6:20:04 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 2/7/2011 5:45:16 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
If the only reason you refrain from doing something is to avoid legal penalties, then you're probably not getting too many brownie points.

Sure. That's a theist position of morality discussion for another time though innit?

Plus, that nullifies the whole premise of Islamic economics. The goal of economics is to make efficient use of scarce resources to meet consumer demand. If your goal is to please God, don't pretend your silly financial system is based on sound economic reasoning.

Economics is the study of how particular societies manage their goods and services; how particular agents interact and value those interactions. Economics is a social science -- there isn't a goal.

Cthulu reveals to you that living as a hermit is morally commendable, so you burn your house down, smash all your belongings, and pass a law requiring everyone else to do the same. Are you engaging in economics? No, you're engaging in a religious ritual of dubious value.

Just as with our debate, it seems you can't seem to wrap your head around a financial system that does not have maximizing wealth as a goal...

Economics is wertfrei, if your goal is to eliminate inequality, you're making a value judgment. Mirza values pleasing Allah. I value negative rights.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/7/2011 6:37:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'm not a complete expert on how loans work, but something tells me that giving out a loan without interest would be risky. Also, how else would banks and other financial institutions make money?
mongeese
Posts: 5,387
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/7/2011 6:39:40 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/7/2011 5:37:48 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 2/7/2011 5:34:39 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
At 2/7/2011 5:32:28 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 2/7/2011 5:30:15 PM, Sieben wrote:
Mirza thinks that honor would have people lend their money out. That's fine, but you can do a lot more if you can rely on markets+charity rather than just charity.

Exactly. But their goal isn't profit -- it's bonus points from God.

Most people aren't Muslims though. If this is a law, then it's necessarily aimed at people who would normally charge interest.

Many Middle Eastern countries are theocracies.

But that doesn't mean that everybody is a Muslim. If Muslims by religion do not charge usury, then the law only restricts Christians and Jews and atheists and other non-Muslims, making the religious roots of the political law irrelevant. Infidels would have no use with brownie points. Besides, if all of the Muslims aren't charging usury, and there's enough of a supply of them, then non-Muslims who charge usury will be driven out of the market.
askbob
Posts: 7,254
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/7/2011 7:08:57 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/7/2011 6:37:28 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Also, how else would banks and other financial institutions make money?

Through the sale of mortgage-backed GBP's
Me -Phil left the site in my charge. I have a recorded phone conversation to prove it.
kohai -If you're the owner, then do something useful like ip block him and get us away from juggle and on a dofferent host!
Me -haha you apparently don't know my history
Kohai - Maybe not, but that doesn't matter! You shoukd still listen to your community and quit being a tyrrant!
Me - i was being completely sarcastic
Kohai - then u misrepresented yourself by impersonating the owner—a violation of the tos
LaissezFaire
Posts: 2,050
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/7/2011 7:17:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/7/2011 5:37:48 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 2/7/2011 5:34:39 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
At 2/7/2011 5:32:28 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 2/7/2011 5:30:15 PM, Sieben wrote:
Mirza thinks that honor would have people lend their money out. That's fine, but you can do a lot more if you can rely on markets+charity rather than just charity.

Exactly. But their goal isn't profit -- it's bonus points from God.

Most people aren't Muslims though. If this is a law, then it's necessarily aimed at people who would normally charge interest.

Many Middle Eastern countries are theocracies.

He doesn't want it just for the Middle East though, he thinks we should apply Islamic Economics everywhere.
Should we subsidize education?
http://www.debate.org...

http://mises.org...

http://lewrockwell.com...

http://antiwar.com...

: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/7/2011 7:44:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/7/2011 7:43:37 PM, Sieben wrote:
ITT: OP does not respond

Wasn't Mirza supposed to make a bunch of these threads ages ago?

We're still waiting, Mirza. Tisk, tisk...
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/7/2011 7:53:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/7/2011 7:08:57 PM, askbob wrote:
At 2/7/2011 6:37:28 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Also, how else would banks and other financial institutions make money?

Through the sale of mortgage-backed GBP's

Who would buy mortgage backed anythings in a world without interest? Mortgages involve interest too.

Incidentally, actual Islamic bankers have a solution to the problem. They just write up contracts where the lender pays a certain amount now, the borrower pays a higher amount later, and they don't mention any percentages or naughty words like "interest" in the contract. ^_^
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
askbob
Posts: 7,254
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/7/2011 7:54:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/7/2011 7:53:03 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 2/7/2011 7:08:57 PM, askbob wrote:
At 2/7/2011 6:37:28 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Also, how else would banks and other financial institutions make money?

Through the sale of mortgage-backed GBP's

Who would buy mortgage backed anythings in a world without interest? Mortgages involve interest too.

Incidentally, actual Islamic bankers have a solution to the problem. They just write up contracts where the lender pays a certain amount now, the borrower pays a higher amount later, and they don't mention any percentages or naughty words like "interest" in the contract. ^_^

LOL

You didn't get my joke

Mortgage-backed God Brownie Points
Me -Phil left the site in my charge. I have a recorded phone conversation to prove it.
kohai -If you're the owner, then do something useful like ip block him and get us away from juggle and on a dofferent host!
Me -haha you apparently don't know my history
Kohai - Maybe not, but that doesn't matter! You shoukd still listen to your community and quit being a tyrrant!
Me - i was being completely sarcastic
Kohai - then u misrepresented yourself by impersonating the owner—a violation of the tos
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/7/2011 7:54:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/7/2011 7:53:03 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 2/7/2011 7:08:57 PM, askbob wrote:
At 2/7/2011 6:37:28 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Also, how else would banks and other financial institutions make money?

Through the sale of mortgage-backed GBP's

Who would buy mortgage backed anythings in a world without interest? Mortgages involve interest too.

Incidentally, actual Islamic bankers have a solution to the problem. They just write up contracts where the lender pays a certain amount now, the borrower pays a higher amount later, and they don't mention any percentages or naughty words like "interest" in the contract. ^_^

I knew there would be a loophole in there somewhere...
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/7/2011 7:55:05 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/7/2011 7:54:08 PM, askbob wrote:
At 2/7/2011 7:53:03 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 2/7/2011 7:08:57 PM, askbob wrote:
At 2/7/2011 6:37:28 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Also, how else would banks and other financial institutions make money?

Through the sale of mortgage-backed GBP's

Who would buy mortgage backed anythings in a world without interest? Mortgages involve interest too.

Incidentally, actual Islamic bankers have a solution to the problem. They just write up contracts where the lender pays a certain amount now, the borrower pays a higher amount later, and they don't mention any percentages or naughty words like "interest" in the contract. ^_^

LOL

You didn't get my joke

Mortgage-backed God Brownie Points

oh.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
SuperRobotWars
Posts: 3,906
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/7/2011 8:14:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/7/2011 7:55:05 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 2/7/2011 7:54:08 PM, askbob wrote:
At 2/7/2011 7:53:03 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 2/7/2011 7:08:57 PM, askbob wrote:
At 2/7/2011 6:37:28 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Also, how else would banks and other financial institutions make money?

Through the sale of mortgage-backed GBP's

Who would buy mortgage backed anythings in a world without interest? Mortgages involve interest too.

Incidentally, actual Islamic bankers have a solution to the problem. They just write up contracts where the lender pays a certain amount now, the borrower pays a higher amount later, and they don't mention any percentages or naughty words like "interest" in the contract. ^_^

LOL

You didn't get my joke

Mortgage-backed God Brownie Points

oh.

mLOL
Minister Of Trolling
: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
:
: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.