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Merit based teacher pay

socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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3/25/2011 10:41:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'm not too versed in this subbject so if anyone knows anything about what merit based pay is about or offer their opinion on the subject, it would be much appreciated.
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Logic_on_rails
Posts: 2,445
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3/25/2011 10:49:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Merit based pay is an interesting subject, that has it's points for it. Unfortunately, there's also some problems:

1. What is 'merit' ? How do you judge what is 'good' teaching?
2. Now that you've determined what makes a good teacher, is it good for all students?
3. How big a difference pay wise do you make it?

Merit based pay is an interesting idea, but when no criteria or acknowledgement of students learning conditions is put forth, it's not the right thing to do.
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
FlyingApple
Posts: 11
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3/28/2011 2:59:57 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/25/2011 10:49:46 PM, Logic_on_rails wrote:
Merit based pay is an interesting subject, that has it's points for it. Unfortunately, there's also some problems:

1. What is 'merit' ? How do you judge what is 'good' teaching?
2. Now that you've determined what makes a good teacher, is it good for all students?
3. How big a difference pay wise do you make it?

Merit based pay is an interesting idea, but when no criteria or acknowledgement of students learning conditions is put forth, it's not the right thing to do.

I agree that none of these things are currently known, but I think that these are questions worth exploring and experimenting with.

The tests currently being used are clearly defining success too narrowly, based mostly on fact-based knowledge rather than critical thinking and broader conceptual gains. So the first attempt has some problems - time to correct, improve (learn), and try again. No one is going to argue that good teachers dont deserve recognition and compensation, but just because we do not know how best to identify and nurture those skills doesn't mean that it isn't worth figuring out.

I think this area of research has the greatest potential to benefit society of any currently out there, and I include medical and environmental research in that statement.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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3/28/2011 3:18:59 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/26/2011 12:35:55 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
merit based pay only works in a voucher system

this. Public schools have no way of determining profit-maximization behavior. Contrary to popular belief, profit-maximization isn't bad under competition since it tries to minimize input and maximize output. Since public schools have no way of determining profit-maximization, they don't know if merit-pay would increase output or not.
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feverish
Posts: 2,716
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3/28/2011 5:34:05 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/25/2011 10:41:19 PM, socialpinko wrote:
I'm not too versed in this subbject so if anyone knows anything about what merit based pay is about or offer their opinion on the subject, it would be much appreciated.

I didn't know much about it and this debate with a teacher (she doesn't come here much anymore) taught me a bit. http://www.debate.org...
PervRat
Posts: 963
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3/28/2011 1:12:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/25/2011 10:49:46 PM, Logic_on_rails wrote:
Merit based pay is an interesting subject, that has it's points for it. Unfortunately, there's also some problems:

1. What is 'merit' ? How do you judge what is 'good' teaching?
2. Now that you've determined what makes a good teacher, is it good for all students?
3. How big a difference pay wise do you make it?

Merit based pay is an interesting idea, but when no criteria or acknowledgement of students learning conditions is put forth, it's not the right thing to do.

Permit me to tack on a 4th issue:

4. In merit-based pay, there would be significant dis-incentive to teach kids who are challenged by living in poor, crime-ridden neighborhoods where they are most needed to give the kids with the least a fighting chance to be able to rise out of poverty.
FlyingApple
Posts: 11
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3/28/2011 11:54:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/28/2011 1:12:45 PM, PervRat wrote:
At 3/25/2011 10:49:46 PM, Logic_on_rails wrote:
Merit based pay is an interesting subject, that has it's points for it. Unfortunately, there's also some problems:

1. What is 'merit' ? How do you judge what is 'good' teaching?
2. Now that you've determined what makes a good teacher, is it good for all students?
3. How big a difference pay wise do you make it?

Merit based pay is an interesting idea, but when no criteria or acknowledgement of students learning conditions is put forth, it's not the right thing to do.

Permit me to tack on a 4th issue:

4. In merit-based pay, there would be significant dis-incentive to teach kids who are challenged by living in poor, crime-ridden neighborhoods where they are most needed to give the kids with the least a fighting chance to be able to rise out of poverty.

I think most people are suggesting that merit be based on gains made by that teacher in that year, in comparison to schools with similar social/economic make-ups, in order to accurately gauge the effectiveness of the teacher and eliminate this dis-incentive. If anything, if we can find a way to better fund schools in poor areas, the idea would be to pay effective teachers more if they choose to work in difficult areas.
PervRat
Posts: 963
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3/28/2011 11:58:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/28/2011 11:54:53 PM, FlyingApple wrote:
I think most people are suggesting that merit be based on gains made by that teacher in that year, in comparison to schools with similar social/economic make-ups, in order to accurately gauge the effectiveness of the teacher and eliminate this dis-incentive. If anything, if we can find a way to better fund schools in poor areas, the idea would be to pay effective teachers more if they choose to work in difficult areas.

That's not what existing "merit-based pay" programs and proposals are about, such as the "no child left behind" act that takes away money from schools whose students fail achievement tests (even when those achievement tests themselves were found to have incorrect answers specified in their answer sheets).
Welfare-Worker
Posts: 1,163
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11/20/2016 3:53:32 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/19/2016 8:38:24 PM, wesbob wrote:
hey guys i want to know if any of you has some points in support of merit pay

An extremely difficult position to defend, due to a lack of criteria.
I was an education major in college.
I had two outstanding profs, whose classes were the first to be closed to admission for new students.
Both lacked tenure, and we're in threat of losing their jobs. Administration did not like them, students did. No, they were not easy graders. Admin actually likes that type.

After I got my degree I went back to visit my mentor, at my old high school.
She advised me, do not go into teaching. "They will ruin your spirit. The most important things I do as far as administration is concerned is keep accurate attendance records, keep my classroom neat and tidy, and make sure no parents complain, about anything. If I happen to actual teach along the way, they will not complain."

Quality, effective teaching will not be a concern of administrators, or most parents, or most students while they are in class.

Standardized tests do more harm than good - as far as evaluating teacher effectiveness.
An effective teacher imparts to students the ability to think critically. Even at the primary grade level this is true.
Good teaching is like good art. You know it when you see it.

Teachers as a group should be paid more, to attract a better quality of teacher.

Here is an idea, just to make things interesting.
Have the starting pay based on the evaluations of their college profs.
I am not saying this will be more accurate than other systems, just more interesting.
Add in that students who have moved on and are a few years down the road do evaluations on previous teachers. Like they say, hindsight is 20/20.
I had teachers I didn't like much in secondary school, that I sure appreciated when after I got into college.