Total Posts:32|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Critical thinking and college don't mix?

Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/19/2011 12:33:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I've been banned from Western Washington University's forum.

Among the guidelines cited to me are:

""Be open: Play with new ideas; try believing before doubting others' perspectives; listen and ask questions before offering judgments."
In other words, critical thinking is a bannable offense.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/19/2011 12:43:40 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/19/2011 12:33:26 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
I've been banned from Western Washington University's forum.

Among the guidelines cited to me are:

""Be open: Play with new ideas; try believing before doubting others' perspectives; listen and ask questions before offering judgments."
In other words, critical thinking is a bannable offense.

right, because "playing with new ideas," "listening," and "asking questions" is not related to critical thinking.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Thaddeus
Posts: 6,985
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/19/2011 1:05:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
It all depends on how you interpret that. Taken literally it isn't too bad. However, reading between the lines it quite likely means "don't try to upset our untenable worldview. 'Cos thats just like your opinion man"
belle
Posts: 4,113
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/19/2011 1:18:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/19/2011 12:33:26 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
I've been banned from Western Washington University's forum.

Among the guidelines cited to me are:

""Be open: Play with new ideas; try believing before doubting others' perspectives; listen and ask questions before offering judgments."
In other words, critical thinking is a bannable offense.

thats funny. puck got banned from a mailing list at my college for a similar thing. the two of you (although you're worse, lol... i'd like to think puck has mellowed somewhat) tend to interpret what another person is saying as wrong, even when theres an interpretation of their words available that actually makes sense.

whats ban-able is judging someone's statement before you understand what they mean. you assume that you understand what they mean "better" than they do, and what they mean is always wrong.

although i will admit banning is pretty extreme, its incredibly frustrating to talk to you because you lack linguistic charity. essentially what charity means in this context is the basic assumption that the person with whom you are speaking is making sense. it is this assumption that makes communication possible. you on the other hand, assume that everyone shares the exact same definitions and connotations of words as you do, and therefore must mean exactly what you would mean (a contradiction) if you used the same words. your assumption is not true, and thats why people don't enjoy arguing with you- communication doesn't take place, so its in a sense, pointless.

so its not "critical thinking" you were banned for. its the inability to communicate effectively.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
Rob1_Billion
Posts: 1,300
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/19/2011 1:37:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/19/2011 12:33:26 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
I've been banned from Western Washington University's forum.

Do we get the quote that got you banned?
kfc
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/19/2011 1:42:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/19/2011 1:18:00 PM, belle wrote:
its incredibly frustrating to talk to you because you lack linguistic charity.

eh, so they've got to make their meaning clearer :/

it's true that Ragnar will argue all day just to avoid Giving you an inch...
but, if anything, that's helpful for better developing your Competing perspective... it makes you iron out what you're saying better.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
belle
Posts: 4,113
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/19/2011 1:45:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/19/2011 1:42:06 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 5/19/2011 1:18:00 PM, belle wrote:
its incredibly frustrating to talk to you because you lack linguistic charity.

eh, so they've got to make their meaning clearer :/

it's true that Ragnar will argue all day just to avoid Giving you an inch...
but, if anything, that's helpful for better developing your Competing perspective... it makes you iron out what you're saying better.

true to a degree, but people presumably don't go on those forums for the express purpose of debate like people do here. and really, its not just about expressing yourself clearly, but expressing yourself how ragnar would express himself... since you'll never be in his brain you'll never fully reach that point.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/19/2011 1:48:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
So wait: If I start saying that Hitler was a hero and the holocaust was an amazing thing, others would get banned for criticizing me since they aren't being open minded.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
innomen
Posts: 10,052
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/19/2011 1:57:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/19/2011 1:18:00 PM, belle wrote:
At 5/19/2011 12:33:26 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
I've been banned from Western Washington University's forum.

Among the guidelines cited to me are:

""Be open: Play with new ideas; try believing before doubting others' perspectives; listen and ask questions before offering judgments."
In other words, critical thinking is a bannable offense.

thats funny. puck got banned from a mailing list at my college for a similar thing. the two of you (although you're worse, lol... i'd like to think puck has mellowed somewhat) tend to interpret what another person is saying as wrong, even when theres an interpretation of their words available that actually makes sense.

whats ban-able is judging someone's statement before you understand what they mean. you assume that you understand what they mean "better" than they do, and what they mean is always wrong.

although i will admit banning is pretty extreme, its incredibly frustrating to talk to you because you lack linguistic charity. essentially what charity means in this context is the basic assumption that the person with whom you are speaking is making sense. it is this assumption that makes communication possible. you on the other hand, assume that everyone shares the exact same definitions and connotations of words as you do, and therefore must mean exactly what you would mean (a contradiction) if you used the same words. your assumption is not true, and thats why people don't enjoy arguing with you- communication doesn't take place, so its in a sense, pointless.

so its not "critical thinking" you were banned for. its the inability to communicate effectively.

What a great phrase: "Linguistic Charity". I like that a lot, sounds like something i would say should the opportunity arise, and will say ;-).
innomen
Posts: 10,052
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/19/2011 2:00:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/19/2011 1:42:06 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 5/19/2011 1:18:00 PM, belle wrote:
its incredibly frustrating to talk to you because you lack linguistic charity.

eh, so they've got to make their meaning clearer :/

it's true that Ragnar will argue all day just to avoid Giving you an inch...
but, if anything, that's helpful for better developing your Competing perspective... it makes you iron out what you're saying better.

Critical thinking, doesn't mean being critical of someone else's thinking exclusively; occasionally a little ground needs to be given to be self critical.
Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/19/2011 2:09:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I was banned from a debate forum for opposing the War of Northern Aggression. Apparently only a troll could the preposterous position that given the wanton slaughter and destruction of that war a better solution could have been found.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/19/2011 2:10:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/19/2011 2:00:37 PM, innomen wrote:
Critical thinking, doesn't mean being critical of someone else's thinking exclusively; occasionally a little ground needs to be given to be self critical.

and when you get Ragnar in a spot You think needs answering to...
If you've put enough work into it.. He eventually just clams up and doesn't play ball.

like when you ask why/how his all-important "choosing" happens in the first place he offers Nothing.. but denies competing, sensible, explanations without any real argument/explanation

But that's called beating him at his own game :P
and why I don't mind his lack of charity :)
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
innomen
Posts: 10,052
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/19/2011 2:12:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/19/2011 2:10:33 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 5/19/2011 2:00:37 PM, innomen wrote:
Critical thinking, doesn't mean being critical of someone else's thinking exclusively; occasionally a little ground needs to be given to be self critical.

and when you get Ragnar in a spot You think needs answering to...
If you've put enough work into it.. He eventually just clams up and doesn't play ball.

like when you ask why/how his all-important "choosing" happens in the first place he offers Nothing.. but denies competing, sensible, explanations without any real argument/explanation

But that's called beating him at his own game :P
and why I don't mind his lack of charity :)

No, i wouldn't think you would.
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/19/2011 2:30:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/19/2011 2:09:41 PM, Reasoning wrote:
I was banned from a debate forum for opposing the War of Northern Aggression. Apparently only a troll could the preposterous position that given the wanton slaughter and destruction of that war a better solution could have been found.

Didn't you get banned from some Yu-Gi-Oh forum for ranting against intellectual property laws?
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/19/2011 2:35:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/19/2011 1:48:43 PM, darkkermit wrote:
So wait: If I start saying that Hitler was a hero and the holocaust was an amazing thing, others would get banned for criticizing me since they aren't being open minded.

If that is how you entrepet their rules, then sure.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/19/2011 2:36:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Maybe the moderators found a post where you asked a 14 year old girl to show you her tits.

It would help if you told us what exactly you were banned for.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/19/2011 2:38:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/19/2011 2:36:44 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
Maybe the moderators found a post where you asked a 14 year old girl to show you her tits.

It would help if you told us what exactly you were banned for.

Guessing - annoying the crap out of people.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/19/2011 2:39:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/19/2011 12:43:40 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 5/19/2011 12:33:26 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
I've been banned from Western Washington University's forum.

Among the guidelines cited to me are:

""Be open: Play with new ideas; try believing before doubting others' perspectives; listen and ask questions before offering judgments."
In other words, critical thinking is a bannable offense.

right, because "playing with new ideas," "listening," and "asking questions" is not related to critical thinking.

I did ask questions. It is impossible to respond without listening anyway "Play with new ideas" is left undefined.

The relevant language is therefore "try believing before doubting", i.e. "Do not engage in critical thinking."

Do we get the quote that got you banned?
The thread is locked and closed-- the posts are not visible.

It was in a thread about an "Islamic awareness week" and events thereof.Note that I'm not the one who turned it into an argument thread, I just responded when some people did.

The main passages cited in my ban message were

"
'Here's an example: my girlfriend. she has to put up with stares everyday. she has to put up with hearing people make fun of her ethnicity in her own class.'
How many people? Note that fun is just that-- fun."

and "
here's another face: my own. i have to put up with racism everyday in the way people look at me or the way people address me
Unless the address is something like "Sand ******", we have a word for what may be happening, it's called paranoia."

The full guidelines were: " I'd ask you to review the first three Guidelines, which include Be humane: "avoid insulting language or belittling statements." Be reasonable: "Posts that inflame others' sensibilities will be removed, and those who use the forum as trolling grounds will not be tolerated." And "Be open: Play with new ideas; try believing before doubting others' perspectives; listen and ask questions before offering judgments."

Note that I did not insult anyone, I merely referred to an insult as a comparison to "looks", and that everything inflames others' sensibilties.

but people presumably don't go on those forums for the express purpose of debate like people do here.
They have a politics forum, presumably debating is accepted behavior.

So wait: If I start saying that Hitler was a hero and the holocaust was an amazing thing, others would get banned for criticizing me since they aren't being open minded.
No, that's not a popular left wing experiment.

My opponent's main refrains in the thread were more or less "This college is racist (In a thread about religion not race)," "All of you disagreeing with me are ignorant," and "You need more awareness, man". I was attempting to get him to define "Awareness."

Maybe the moderators found a post where you asked a 14 year old girl to show you her tits.
Firstly, I never asked you, I made a statement.

Second, there are no 14 year old girls on the Western Washington University forums.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/19/2011 2:40:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
*popular left wing perspective.*
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/19/2011 3:11:05 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
My opponent's main refrains in the thread were more or less "This college is racist (In a thread about religion not race)," "All of you disagreeing with me are ignorant," and "You need more awareness, : : man". I was attempting to get him to define "Awareness."

IMO, proper way to respond was to agree with him and write anecdotes how people have labeled as you "honky" or when you stepped into a sociology class was effectively described as "white, male oppressor" and how the campus is against you. Would have been very gutsy.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/19/2011 3:13:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/19/2011 3:11:05 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
My opponent's main refrains in the thread were more or less "This college is racist (In a thread about religion not race)," "All of you disagreeing with me are ignorant," and "You need more awareness, : : man". I was attempting to get him to define "Awareness."

IMO, proper way to respond was to agree with him and write anecdotes how people have labeled as you "honky" or when you stepped into a sociology class was effectively described as "white, male oppressor" and how the campus is against you. Would have been very gutsy.

It would also have been false.

I did however mention that I went to a middle school that was majority African American when he was all "Whites will never know what it is like to be a minority on campus."

I was never called honky there, people weren't smart enough. They called me n***** instead. Apparently they didn't know what the word meant.. And I told him it was a minority doing such things and no big deal.

(As for sociology, I fortunately covered that requirement of my AA degree in an online class :P)
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/19/2011 3:20:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/19/2011 2:40:30 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
*popular left wing perspective.*

I think Hitler was a perfect example of bi-partisanship. He appealed to the left through socialism and government control. He appealed to the right by appealing to people's xenophobia and killing the Jews.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/19/2011 3:20:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/19/2011 3:13:36 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 5/19/2011 3:11:05 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
My opponent's main refrains in the thread were more or less "This college is racist (In a thread about religion not race)," "All of you disagreeing with me are ignorant," and "You need more awareness, : : man". I was attempting to get him to define "Awareness."

IMO, proper way to respond was to agree with him and write anecdotes how people have labeled as you "honky" or when you stepped into a sociology class was effectively described as "white, male oppressor" and how the campus is against you. Would have been very gutsy.

It would also have been false.

I did however mention that I went to a middle school that was majority African American when he was all "Whites will never know what it is like to be a minority on campus."

I was never called honky there, people weren't smart enough. They called me n***** instead. Apparently they didn't know what the word meant.. And I told him it was a minority doing such things and no big deal.

(As for sociology, I fortunately covered that requirement of my AA degree in an online class :P)

You could have concocted something about how you've been discriminated against, or looked down upon for being white in some kind of educational environment, even something as simple as "there is no caucasian month." Have you seriously never had that experience? If you allow yourself to get mad at the troll (or the race-baiting retard) he's already won.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/19/2011 3:29:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/19/2011 3:20:07 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 5/19/2011 2:40:30 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
*popular left wing perspective.*

I think Hitler was a perfect example of bi-partisanship. He appealed to the left through socialism and government control. He appealed to the right by appealing to people's xenophobia and killing the Jews.

popular.

Is. Present tense. ^_^

"
You could have concocted something about how you've been discriminated against, or looked down upon for being white in some kind of educational environment, even something as simple as "there is no caucasian month." Have you seriously never had that experience?"
Only in other such insignificant manners. ^_^
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Grape
Posts: 989
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/19/2011 3:48:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
This is a simple question of understanding your audience. Shouldn't it be extremely obvious that a college's forums will be run (and mostly used) by people who are socially liberal, have a 3rd grade understanding of race issues, don't tolerate dissent? It should go without saying that people who feel discriminated against will be regarded as inerrant in their understanding of the full spectrum of issues related to their experience and that any questioning of their inerrancy will be regarded not as an honest criticism but a declaration of neo-Nazism.
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/19/2011 3:55:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Only in other such insignificant manners. ^_^

But look who you're talking to. These people are looking for racism as a way to validate their existence. The idea that racism against white people exists on campus would make their claims meaningless as it's no longer a struggle against the white man. If he fires back or doubts you, you can now call him a racist. It now just becomes a statement against racism against all races, and that's pretty stupid.

There's also a huge difference between a college campus and rural mississippi, so this attitude shouldn't be universally adopted.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/19/2011 3:58:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/19/2011 3:48:45 PM, Grape wrote:
This is a simple question of understanding your audience. Shouldn't it be extremely obvious that a college's forums will be run (and mostly used) by people who are socially liberal, have a 3rd grade understanding of race issues, don't tolerate dissent? It should go without saying that people who feel discriminated against will be regarded as inerrant in their understanding of the full spectrum of issues related to their experience and that any questioning of their inerrancy will be regarded not as an honest criticism but a declaration of neo-Nazism.

But but but college is all about learning about new perspectives and open honest dialog XP
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...