Total Posts:40|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Is college worth it?

jat93
Posts: 1,440
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/8/2011 2:02:02 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Is it worth it to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars over several years for a college education and degree, or would it be better to take that money and use it to start a business or in some other way get employed? What are the alternatives to success in life without a college degree?

Not considering this route, I'm applying to colleges next fall/winter actually, just read and heard Fox Business Network's John Stossel's thoughts on the matter and was interested because he's genuinely honest about things and doesn't seem to fear differing from the status quo.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/8/2011 2:48:38 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
What occupations are you interested in and how important would a college degree be to get into or advance in such fields?

That should be the basis to answer your question. In some fields a college degree is more valuable then others.

It is true, that the reason college students have higher salaries can be largely based on selection bias. However college can also signal to employers that you are educated and have the skills to be a good employee. You also have the ability to raise human capital. You also have the ability to social network in college. Most of the richest entrepreneurs didn't finish college, but most of them had some college.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
tornshoe92
Posts: 361
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/8/2011 11:15:51 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
^^^Agree. It really differs based on what job you're looking for. For example, I'm getting a Music Education degree so I can teach at the high school or college level some sort of music (probably theory, trumpet, or band) and for that you HAVE to have a degree otherwise you won't even be considered for the job.
"Next time I see a little old lady going to church I am going kick her in the ovaries because she is personally responsible for this. Thanks Izbo." -C_N
vbaculum
Posts: 1,274
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/8/2011 12:02:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/8/2011 2:02:02 AM, jat93 wrote:
Is it worth it to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars over several years for a college education and degree, or would it be better to take that money and use it to start a business or in some other way get employed? What are the alternatives to success in life without a college degree?

Not considering this route, I'm applying to colleges next fall/winter actually, just read and heard Fox Business Network's John Stossel's thoughts on the matter and was interested because he's genuinely honest about things and doesn't seem to fear differing from the status quo.



If you want to start your own business, and you can aquire the knowledge you need independently (i.e. spend a lot of time at Barnes and Nobels) then I would skip college. But only if you consider yourself an ardent autodidact and are able interact well with people and make the social connections you need (social networking, as they say). I'm not an entrapenuer, I just know one and I am able to get a feel for what they do. In business, people simply care about money. If they think you can make them money they don't care if you can count pass ten.

My own profession, software development/maintenance, lends itself well to the self-educated. Having good connections is key though. I suspect it's the same for other types of jobs where you have a specialized skill and stare at a monitor all day. Attitude, karisma and connections are very important to have if you are going to be without a college education.
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
CGBSpender
Posts: 82
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/9/2011 7:46:13 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I think a clear definition of success needs to be established before that question can properly be answered. If there is a specific job you are after, than the ideal course is dependant on that. If you want to be an entrepeneur than college certainly isn't necessary, but can be very helpful. It also depends what you do in college. Not all programs are created equal so don't assume just because a college is ivy league it's program is the rght fit for you that's an easy mistake to make. Compare the programs not the colleges (compares those too, but as a separate consideration).

College is more than just an economic calculus. Historically, it has been for the cultivation of "upper-class minds" which ussually meant a kind of ethnocentric worldliness (nice little oxy-moron there). Most arts degrees will not give you any specific skills, but train you to be critical and analytic regardless of the subject matter.

Ideally it is a matter of self-development (as all education should be, but that's a whole other discussion haha). However, programs that are more specific to a career path like engineering or medicine are structured in a completely different way. Ultimately, I'd say avoid the two biggest traps I see so many peope make: 1) thinking a good college automatically means a good program and a good future, 2) making a large part of your life little more than an economic calculation.

Good luck.
Rockylightning
Posts: 2,862
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/11/2011 1:14:47 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I wouldnt listen to Fox when it comes to life descisions.

Yeah agree with kermit. It depends on the occupation and whether it requires a degree.
jat93
Posts: 1,440
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/11/2011 1:31:28 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/11/2011 1:14:47 AM, Rockylightning wrote:
I wouldnt listen to Fox when it comes to life descisions.

Fox Business Network (which features Judge Napolitano and John Stossel, both of whom are smart and intellectually honest) is 1000x better than normal Fox. Because it hardly ever deals with social issues. It's almost entirely about economic and fiscal stuff.
Rockylightning
Posts: 2,862
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/11/2011 2:31:35 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/11/2011 1:31:28 AM, jat93 wrote:
At 7/11/2011 1:14:47 AM, Rockylightning wrote:
I wouldnt listen to Fox when it comes to life descisions.

Fox Business Network (which features Judge Napolitano and John Stossel, both of whom are smart and intellectually honest) is 1000x better than normal Fox. Because it hardly ever deals with social issues. It's almost entirely about economic and fiscal stuff.

And they told you "Hey kids! Remember NOT to go to college!" sounds good to me.
BennyW
Posts: 698
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/11/2011 3:00:22 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/11/2011 2:31:35 AM, Rockylightning wrote:
At 7/11/2011 1:31:28 AM, jat93 wrote:
At 7/11/2011 1:14:47 AM, Rockylightning wrote:
I wouldnt listen to Fox when it comes to life descisions.

Fox Business Network (which features Judge Napolitano and John Stossel, both of whom are smart and intellectually honest) is 1000x better than normal Fox. Because it hardly ever deals with social issues. It's almost entirely about economic and fiscal stuff.

And they told you "Hey kids! Remember NOT to go to college!" sounds good to me.

It depends on what you want to do with your life. You want to be a plummer and make pretty good money there is no need for college.
You didn't build that-Obama
It's pretty lazy to quote things you disagree with, call it stupid and move on, rather than arguing with the person. -000ike
Thaddeus
Posts: 6,985
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/11/2011 3:45:45 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/11/2011 2:31:35 AM, Rockylightning wrote:
At 7/11/2011 1:31:28 AM, jat93 wrote:
At 7/11/2011 1:14:47 AM, Rockylightning wrote:
I wouldnt listen to Fox when it comes to life descisions.

Fox Business Network (which features Judge Napolitano and John Stossel, both of whom are smart and intellectually honest) is 1000x better than normal Fox. Because it hardly ever deals with social issues. It's almost entirely about economic and fiscal stuff.

And they told you "Hey kids! Remember NOT to go to college!" sounds good to me.

College shouldn't be necessary for everyone. Some people are just wasting money and time by attending college.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/11/2011 4:41:02 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I attend college and earned a degree, but I acknowledge it is a scam. Yet, for some reason, I view college degrees to exhibit some degree of prestige. It isn't entirely worthless. It's slightly beneficial, makes job finding slightly easier, you're a tad bit more knowledgeable than otherwise not having attended, etc. so it has it's Pro's and it's Con's.

I think the main problem is that it's too stressful, demanding, expensive, and for all that, the benefit is very small.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Thaddeus
Posts: 6,985
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/11/2011 4:42:50 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/11/2011 4:41:02 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:


I attend college and earned a degree, but I acknowledge it is a scam. Yet, for some reason, I view college degrees to exhibit some degree of prestige. It isn't entirely worthless. It's slightly beneficial, makes job finding slightly easier, you're a tad bit more knowledgeable than otherwise not having attended, etc. so it has it's Pro's and it's Con's.

I think the main problem is that it's too stressful, demanding, expensive, and for all that, the benefit is very small.

What did you study?
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/11/2011 4:46:41 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/11/2011 4:42:50 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
What did you study?

Computing and Information Technology
and
Philosophy
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/11/2011 9:55:54 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/11/2011 4:42:50 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 7/11/2011 4:41:02 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:


I attend college and earned a degree, but I acknowledge it is a scam. Yet, for some reason, I view college degrees to exhibit some degree of prestige. It isn't entirely worthless. It's slightly beneficial, makes job finding slightly easier, you're a tad bit more knowledgeable than otherwise not having attended, etc. so it has it's Pro's and it's Con's.

I think the main problem is that it's too stressful, demanding, expensive, and for all that, the benefit is very small.

What did you study?

FYI, you do realize that the national inflation association is an entire scam. I know that doesn't necessary discredit the video, but the video is designed so you'll sign up for there scam program.
http://maxkeiser.com...
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
thomaslues
Posts: 4
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/13/2011 2:01:21 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Even though you start a business or any others, I suggest you to pursue minimum degree certificate to acquire basic knowledge and also it may help you in future in any other circumstances.
jat93
Posts: 1,440
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/13/2011 2:42:01 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/11/2011 2:31:35 AM, Rockylightning wrote:
At 7/11/2011 1:31:28 AM, jat93 wrote:
At 7/11/2011 1:14:47 AM, Rockylightning wrote:
I wouldnt listen to Fox when it comes to life descisions.

Fox Business Network (which features Judge Napolitano and John Stossel, both of whom are smart and intellectually honest) is 1000x better than normal Fox. Because it hardly ever deals with social issues. It's almost entirely about economic and fiscal stuff.

And they told you "Hey kids! Remember NOT to go to college!" sounds good to me.

Fact: college is not for everybody and some are wasting their money by paying for it. You sound turned off by their idea simply because it goes against the status quo. All I said was that Fox Business Network is intellectually honest and not biased like the normal Fox news is, so don't distort what they said or reject it just because it sounds extreme.... I'm pretty sure they don't advocate advising all kids against college; you make it sound like they're advising against the idea of higher education in general...
Lionheart
Posts: 520
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/15/2011 1:19:00 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
College is good, but the price we have to pay is absolutely ridiculous. The education should be free or easily affordable for everyone.
"Knowing others is intelligence;
knowing yourself is true wisdom.
Mastering others is strength;
mastering yourself is true power."


- Lionheart -
Andromeda_Z
Posts: 4,151
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/15/2011 3:15:40 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/15/2011 1:19:00 AM, Lionheart wrote:
College is good, but the price we have to pay is absolutely ridiculous. The education should be free or easily affordable for everyone.

How do you plan to make college free? The professors would have to be paid something, or they would go do something else with their time.
sadolite
Posts: 8,839
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2011 2:42:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
It's really quite simple. If you want to be a doctor or any of the related fields ,a lawyer, a pencil pusher or some kind of engineer and work for someone the rest of your life go to college. If you want to work for yourself be rich and successful start a business. You will also create jobs. Most college oriented jobs are dead weight on the private sector,as they usually require gov't funding to exsist. I would refrain from anything to do with rocket science or the space program and anything related to that field. That's all but dried up and gone and will most likely never come back.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
sadolite
Posts: 8,839
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2011 2:50:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/11/2011 2:31:35 AM, Rockylightning wrote:
At 7/11/2011 1:31:28 AM, jat93 wrote:
At 7/11/2011 1:14:47 AM, Rockylightning wrote:
I wouldnt listen to Fox when it comes to life descisions.

Fox Business Network (which features Judge Napolitano and John Stossel, both of whom are smart and intellectually honest) is 1000x better than normal Fox. Because it hardly ever deals with social issues. It's almost entirely about economic and fiscal stuff.

And they told you "Hey kids! Remember NOT to go to college!" sounds good to me.

No, they told you to use your brain and think about what it is that you want to achieve in life and determine if it is worth it or not to dump tens of thousands of dollars into something that might be utterly worthless to you. Obama just says go to college no matter what, even if you aren't college material and saddle yourself with thousands in debt.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
jat93
Posts: 1,440
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2011 2:52:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/16/2011 2:50:46 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 7/11/2011 2:31:35 AM, Rockylightning wrote:
At 7/11/2011 1:31:28 AM, jat93 wrote:
At 7/11/2011 1:14:47 AM, Rockylightning wrote:
I wouldnt listen to Fox when it comes to life descisions.

Fox Business Network (which features Judge Napolitano and John Stossel, both of whom are smart and intellectually honest) is 1000x better than normal Fox. Because it hardly ever deals with social issues. It's almost entirely about economic and fiscal stuff.

And they told you "Hey kids! Remember NOT to go to college!" sounds good to me.

No, they told you to use your brain and think about what it is that you want to achieve in life and determine if it is worth it or not to dump tens of thousands of dollars into something that might be utterly worthless to you. Obama just says go to college no matter what, even if you aren't college material and saddle yourself with thousands in debt.

I totally agree with you on what it was they said and what Obama says, but I hope you realize that his view is the prevalent one, not just his. I imagine any other President would go with the traditional view as well.
sadolite
Posts: 8,839
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2011 2:59:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
How to tell if you are college material: If you can't figure out a way to pay for college without going into debt you most likely are not college material. Don't try the poor argument. Thousands and thousand of poor people have achieved it. You may not go to an ivy league school, but hey, anyone who is college material would know those places are a complete rip off anyway. Ivy league schools are for the silver spooned.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
jat93
Posts: 1,440
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2011 3:09:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/16/2011 2:59:18 PM, sadolite wrote:
How to tell if you are college material: If you can't figure out a way to pay for college without going into debt you most likely are not college material. Don't try the poor argument. Thousands and thousand of poor people have achieved it. You may not go to an ivy league school, but hey, anyone who is college material would know those places are a complete rip off anyway. Ivy league schools are for the silver spooned.

I'll probably go into a bit of debt going to college because my parents will only pay for some of it. They've been paying private school tuition (20 grand per year) for me for over a decade now. I imagine they'll pay about the same per year for my college tuition. So let's say I get accepted into some decent school and end up having to pay 30 grand per year, factoring in both merit and financial aid (a likely situation) hypothetically. You would suggest that I don't go to college? I don't want to do anything business related, I want to double major in psychology and political science.
belle
Posts: 4,113
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2011 3:12:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/16/2011 2:59:18 PM, sadolite wrote:
How to tell if you are college material: If you can't figure out a way to pay for college without going into debt you most likely are not college material. Don't try the poor argument. Thousands and thousand of poor people have achieved it. You may not go to an ivy league school, but hey, anyone who is college material would know those places are a complete rip off anyway. Ivy league schools are for the silver spooned.

yeah, no. thats ridiculous. people do need to consider whether or not they will reasonably be able to pay off the debt they accrue given the degree they are pursuing, but the mere fact of accumulating debt is not a good reason to avoid college. imagine if highly qualified med school applicants took your advice... or worse nursing school applicants, for which we have a shortage, and most of whom come from working class or lower middle class families.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2011 3:27:05 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
yeah, no. thats ridiculous. people do need to consider whether or not they will reasonably be able to pay off the debt they accrue given the degree they are pursuing, but the mere fact of accumulating debt is not a good reason to avoid college. imagine if highly qualified med school applicants took your advice... or worse nursing school applicants, for which we have a shortage, and most of whom come from working class or lower middle class families.:

I agree that assuming debt, alone, is not necessarily a good argument. The central point here is that most people that are in college just shouldn't be. There should be a much larger focus on trade schools ranging from fire academies, police academies, apprenticeships, technical schools ranging from aircraft maintenance to plumbing.

I can't remember the statistic verbatim, but it's something like 1-50 college grads actually work in their field of study. Why waste your time and your money pursuing something that you'll never even use? Just to get a piece of paper. That's pretty much it. And what a false sense of security for an employer.

Secondly, this myth that you need school is just to generate revenue for the school themselves. It's a marketing pitch, and too many people fall for it. Plus it saturates the job market to the point of being a college grad no longer becomes a commodity. It becomes a status quo expectation.

College serves a function.... but not for like 60% of the students. If you wanna learn how to do a keg stand and get laid, go to college. If you want to assume debt that you'll finally pay off when you're 50, go to college. If you want to learn something useful, go out and learn it.

After all, DDO is a far better instructor than 75% of the diploma mills out there.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
belle
Posts: 4,113
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2011 3:38:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/16/2011 3:27:05 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
The central point here is that most people that are in college just shouldn't be. There should be a much larger focus on trade schools ranging from fire academies, police academies, apprenticeships, technical schools ranging from aircraft maintenance to plumbing.

that sounds more reasonable. there are a lot of useless majors out there, and a lot of people who go to college because they think they have to rather than because they want to. i just hate broad statements like "most people shouldn't go to college" because my major (biochemistry) is one of the exceptions to the highly useless fields out there and, like most scientific fields, tends to get ignored in discussions like this one.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...