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To many unqualified are attening University

logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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12/3/2011 6:28:06 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
It is my considered opinion that since the government of the US has decided to value education the standards have been on a continual decline. Currently, in Ohio, all graduates of High School must pass a 9th. grade test, meaning even the government acknowledges they are at least three years behind. My private school freshmen pass the test at age 15, the first year they are eligible to take it. Every University in Ohio has remedial classes to teach freshmen basic math and reading skills.

This should be contrasted with the standards of forty years ago when no remediation was offered at the university level and one could flunk out if they did not know how to read and/or write. The reading level of college text books has declined so that currently nothing written for a reading level above the seventh grade is used in most Universities, including 400 level courses.

Perhaps it is time to return to education and make a college education something one must earn, Not an entitlement of age.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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12/3/2011 7:24:35 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
We ought to produce more intelligent citizens that are at par with the world. On the national level, this is about the most important reason the government gets so involved in the quality of education its citizens receive (individually, you get education for other reasons). I don't see how strangling the gateway to higher education ultimately meets this goal.

Would it not be more beneficial to simply keep the status quo when it comes to who can attend college, but weed out the ones that do not rise to expectations? Some people do awful in high school, but enter college and do quite well and have the opportunity to make something of their lives. Why deprive them of the very opportunity only to keep up standards that ultimately do little for the overall intelligence level of the nation.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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12/3/2011 7:32:17 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/3/2011 7:24:35 AM, 000ike wrote:
We ought to produce more intelligent citizens that are at par with the world. On the national level, this is about the most important reason the government gets so involved in the quality of education its citizens receive (individually, you get education for other reasons). I don't see how strangling the gateway to higher education ultimately meets this goal.

Would it not be more beneficial to simply keep the status quo when it comes to who can attend college, but weed out the ones that do not rise to expectations? Some people do awful in high school, but enter college and do quite well and have the opportunity to make something of their lives. Why deprive them of the very opportunity only to keep up standards that ultimately do little for the overall intelligence level of the nation.

No. The status quo is the problem, and intelligence is the issue. No one with a low IQ should go to college not because they are bad but rather because they lack the requisite skills.. If someone does poorly in high school and then well in college, the college is poor. I advocate objective standards not subjective nonsense, do poorly in high school not even considered for college, find a trade and help bring the US manufacturing back. Get below a B avg in undergrad, no grad school. All need to be fluent in a foreign language, know calculus, basic philosophy, Literature, and History or no degree.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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12/7/2011 11:54:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/3/2011 6:28:06 AM, logicrules wrote:
It is my considered opinion that since the government of the US has decided to value education the standards have been on a continual decline. Currently, in Ohio, all graduates of High School must pass a 9th. grade test, meaning even the government acknowledges they are at least three years behind. My private school freshmen pass the test at age 15, the first year they are eligible to take it. Every University in Ohio has remedial classes to teach freshmen basic math and reading skills.

This should be contrasted with the standards of forty years ago when no remediation was offered at the university level and one could flunk out if they did not know how to read and/or write. The reading level of college text books has declined so that currently nothing written for a reading level above the seventh grade is used in most Universities, including 400 level courses.

Perhaps it is time to return to education and make a college education something one must earn, Not an entitlement of age.

If people wish to learn, they should be able to do so. Why are so many people against permitting others to learn? On one hand, you claim that if they are lazy and that they should work hard, earn a college a degree, and make a living. On the other hand, you complain when people do work to obtain a degree. I have not found that the reading level at my university is below the "seventh grade level." That claim is absolutely nonsensical. Even if it were true, the manner in which one reads is different in college than it is in grade school; reading is about deriving philosophical meaning that can be applied to daily life as opposed to simply memorizing the plot. I bet that I could derive philosophical truth that seventh graders would not from the Harry Potter Series or the Percy Jackson Series although these books target children.
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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12/8/2011 8:44:03 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/7/2011 11:54:10 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 12/3/2011 6:28:06 AM, logicrules wrote:
It is my considered opinion that since the government of the US has decided to value education the standards have been on a continual decline. Currently, in Ohio, all graduates of High School must pass a 9th. grade test, meaning even the government acknowledges they are at least three years behind. My private school freshmen pass the test at age 15, the first year they are eligible to take it. Every University in Ohio has remedial classes to teach freshmen basic math and reading skills.

This should be contrasted with the standards of forty years ago when no remediation was offered at the university level and one could flunk out if they did not know how to read and/or write. The reading level of college text books has declined so that currently nothing written for a reading level above the seventh grade is used in most Universities, including 400 level courses.

Perhaps it is time to return to education and make a college education something one must earn, Not an entitlement of age.

If people wish to learn, they should be able to do so. Why are so many people against permitting others to learn? On one hand, you claim that if they are lazy and that they should work hard, earn a college a degree, and make a living. On the other hand, you complain when people do work to obtain a degree. I have not found that the reading level at my university is below the "seventh grade level." That claim is absolutely nonsensical. Even if it were true, the manner in which one reads is different in college than it is in grade school; reading is about deriving philosophical meaning that can be applied to daily life as opposed to simply memorizing the plot. I bet that I could derive philosophical truth that seventh graders would not from the Harry Potter Series or the Percy Jackson Series although these books target children.

Thank you, you make my case. I never said anything about working hard. If fact it is irrelevant to my premise. As to my "claim" it is fact, college texts are written at a seventh grade reading level, or below, because many have reading skills equivalent to those displayed by yourself. A bet is a wager requiring the requisite capital to pay, I see no evidence that you possess same.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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12/8/2011 9:01:31 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/8/2011 8:44:03 AM, logicrules wrote:
At 12/7/2011 11:54:10 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 12/3/2011 6:28:06 AM, logicrules wrote:
It is my considered opinion that since the government of the US has decided to value education the standards have been on a continual decline. Currently, in Ohio, all graduates of High School must pass a 9th. grade test, meaning even the government acknowledges they are at least three years behind. My private school freshmen pass the test at age 15, the first year they are eligible to take it. Every University in Ohio has remedial classes to teach freshmen basic math and reading skills.

This should be contrasted with the standards of forty years ago when no remediation was offered at the university level and one could flunk out if they did not know how to read and/or write. The reading level of college text books has declined so that currently nothing written for a reading level above the seventh grade is used in most Universities, including 400 level courses.

Perhaps it is time to return to education and make a college education something one must earn, Not an entitlement of age.

If people wish to learn, they should be able to do so. Why are so many people against permitting others to learn? On one hand, you claim that if they are lazy and that they should work hard, earn a college a degree, and make a living. On the other hand, you complain when people do work to obtain a degree. I have not found that the reading level at my university is below the "seventh grade level." That claim is absolutely nonsensical. Even if it were true, the manner in which one reads is different in college than it is in grade school; reading is about deriving philosophical meaning that can be applied to daily life as opposed to simply memorizing the plot. I bet that I could derive philosophical truth that seventh graders would not from the Harry Potter Series or the Percy Jackson Series although these books target children.

Thank you, you make my case. I never said anything about working hard. If fact it is irrelevant to my premise. As to my "claim" it is fact, college texts are written at a seventh grade reading level, or below, because many have reading skills equivalent to those displayed by yourself. A bet is a wager requiring the requisite capital to pay, I see no evidence that you possess same.

You completely misunderstood what I said. I can derive philosophical truths from incredibly complex works and from basic works like Dr. Suess. College-level reading is about expanding critical thinking skills, and not about maximizing one's vocabulary and understanding of plot.
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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12/8/2011 9:20:17 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/8/2011 9:01:31 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 12/8/2011 8:44:03 AM, logicrules wrote:
At 12/7/2011 11:54:10 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 12/3/2011 6:28:06 AM, logicrules wrote:
It is my considered opinion that since the government of the US has decided to value education the standards have been on a continual decline. Currently, in Ohio, all graduates of High School must pass a 9th. grade test, meaning even the government acknowledges they are at least three years behind. My private school freshmen pass the test at age 15, the first year they are eligible to take it. Every University in Ohio has remedial classes to teach freshmen basic math and reading skills.

This should be contrasted with the standards of forty years ago when no remediation was offered at the university level and one could flunk out if they did not know how to read and/or write. The reading level of college text books has declined so that currently nothing written for a reading level above the seventh grade is used in most Universities, including 400 level courses.

Perhaps it is time to return to education and make a college education something one must earn, Not an entitlement of age.

If people wish to learn, they should be able to do so. Why are so many people against permitting others to learn? On one hand, you claim that if they are lazy and that they should work hard, earn a college a degree, and make a living. On the other hand, you complain when people do work to obtain a degree. I have not found that the reading level at my university is below the "seventh grade level." That claim is absolutely nonsensical. Even if it were true, the manner in which one reads is different in college than it is in grade school; reading is about deriving philosophical meaning that can be applied to daily life as opposed to simply memorizing the plot. I bet that I could derive philosophical truth that seventh graders would not from the Harry Potter Series or the Percy Jackson Series although these books target children.

Thank you, you make my case. I never said anything about working hard. If fact it is irrelevant to my premise. As to my "claim" it is fact, college texts are written at a seventh grade reading level, or below, because many have reading skills equivalent to those displayed by yourself. A bet is a wager requiring the requisite capital to pay, I see no evidence that you possess same.

You completely misunderstood what I said. I can derive philosophical truths from incredibly complex works and from basic works like Dr. Suess. College-level reading is about expanding critical thinking skills, and not about maximizing one's vocabulary and understanding of plot.

mmmm If you get complex truths from Dr. Suess I am unqualified to assess the problem. There is no simple way to write about the complexities of the devolution of Language. Your claim of an ability to find that which cannot be there is a bit strange. My Appologies.
tyler90az
Posts: 971
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12/8/2011 10:47:54 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
You completely misunderstood what I said. I can derive philosophical truths from incredibly complex works and from basic works like Dr. Suess. College-level reading is about expanding critical thinking skills, and not about maximizing one's vocabulary and understanding of plot.

Second that, Dr. Suess included........
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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12/11/2011 8:54:04 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/8/2011 10:47:54 AM, tyler90az wrote:
You completely misunderstood what I said. I can derive philosophical truths from incredibly complex works and from basic works like Dr. Suess. College-level reading is about expanding critical thinking skills, and not about maximizing one's vocabulary and understanding of plot.

Second that, Dr. Suess included........

I do not think that qualifies as educated, that may be another specialty entirely.
RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
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12/14/2011 9:34:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The definitive work on this subject is Charles Murray's Real Education: Four Simple Truths for Bringing America's Schools Back to Reality. One of the four truths is that half the people are below average.

Many people want to go to college not because they want to learn, but rather because society says doing so equates with success. To fulfill that standards are lowered so everyone can feel fulfilled. The result is that we have significant shortages of skilled craftsmen, shortages of engineers and scientists, and surpluses of generic liberal arts majors.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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12/14/2011 9:38:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/14/2011 9:34:29 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
The definitive work on this subject is Charles Murray's Real Education: Four Simple Truths for Bringing America's Schools Back to Reality. One of the four truths is that half the people are below average.

Many people want to go to college not because they want to learn, but rather because society says doing so equates with success. To fulfill that standards are lowered so everyone can feel fulfilled. The result is that we have significant shortages of skilled craftsmen, shortages of engineers and scientists, and surpluses of generic liberal arts majors.

Engineers and scientists have to go to college though.
Open borders debate:
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mongoose
Posts: 3,500
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12/14/2011 9:55:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/14/2011 9:38:45 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 12/14/2011 9:34:29 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
The definitive work on this subject is Charles Murray's Real Education: Four Simple Truths for Bringing America's Schools Back to Reality. One of the four truths is that half the people are below average.

Many people want to go to college not because they want to learn, but rather because society says doing so equates with success. To fulfill that standards are lowered so everyone can feel fulfilled. The result is that we have significant shortages of skilled craftsmen, shortages of engineers and scientists, and surpluses of generic liberal arts majors.

Engineers and scientists have to go to college though.

If more college resources are devoted towards liberal majors, less can be devoted towards science majors. Production Possibilities Curve.
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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12/14/2011 10:00:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/14/2011 9:55:02 PM, mongoose wrote:
At 12/14/2011 9:38:45 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 12/14/2011 9:34:29 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
The definitive work on this subject is Charles Murray's Real Education: Four Simple Truths for Bringing America's Schools Back to Reality. One of the four truths is that half the people are below average.

Many people want to go to college not because they want to learn, but rather because society says doing so equates with success. To fulfill that standards are lowered so everyone can feel fulfilled. The result is that we have significant shortages of skilled craftsmen, shortages of engineers and scientists, and surpluses of generic liberal arts majors.

Engineers and scientists have to go to college though.

If more college resources are devoted towards liberal majors, less can be devoted towards science majors. Production Possibilities Curve.

I realize that. However, it doesn't make sense to criticize people for going to college, and state that we need more professions that require a college degree :p.

The main problem is the government really f*cking up with the loaning process. It treats all majors the same, and doesn't take into accounting probability of paying back loans.
Open borders debate:
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RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
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12/14/2011 10:28:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/14/2011 10:00:58 PM, darkkermit wrote:
If more college resources are devoted towards liberal majors, less can be devoted towards science majors. Production Possibilities Curve.

I realize that. However, it doesn't make sense to criticize people for going to college, and state that we need more professions that require a college degree :p.

Not only are resources diverted to unneeded skills, but students are diverted. Why struggle through difficult courses if you can be equally validated by society for cruising through something easier?

The criticism is that people are going to be validated, rather than going to learn useful skills.

Murray argues that colleges should be organized more like a job. No law against having some fun, but work should dominate.
sadolite
Posts: 8,836
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12/14/2011 11:59:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/14/2011 9:38:45 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 12/14/2011 9:34:29 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
The definitive work on this subject is Charles Murray's Real Education: Four Simple Truths for Bringing America's Schools Back to Reality. One of the four truths is that half the people are below average.

Many people want to go to college not because they want to learn, but rather because society says doing so equates with success. To fulfill that standards are lowered so everyone can feel fulfilled. The result is that we have significant shortages of skilled craftsmen, shortages of engineers and scientists, and surpluses of generic liberal arts majors.

Engineers and scientists have to go to college though.

Only if they want to work for someone. You can engineer and conduct science without going to college and be quite successful and many have. Two of the most note worthy people Thomas Edison and Benjamin Franklin virtually no formal education.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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12/15/2011 4:30:25 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/14/2011 10:28:54 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
At 12/14/2011 10:00:58 PM, darkkermit wrote:
If more college resources are devoted towards liberal majors, less can be devoted towards science majors. Production Possibilities Curve.

I realize that. However, it doesn't make sense to criticize people for going to college, and state that we need more professions that require a college degree :p.

Not only are resources diverted to unneeded skills, but students are diverted. Why struggle through difficult courses if you can be equally validated by society for cruising through something easier?

The criticism is that people are going to be validated, rather than going to learn useful skills.

Murray argues that colleges should be organized more like a job. No law against having some fun, but work should dominate.

Organizing is fine, but that should be up to the student. 80% of hose in college today do not have the intelligence to have gone to college 100 years ago. Prior to WWII one did not need to attend law school to be a lawyer, one could 'read the law" while working. A college education is no longer an education it is training, a trade school. This al means that the graduates lack the ability to think. Graduates have some knowledge in one subject and little or none in all others. Engineers know much about their specific area of engineering, but cannot write, or read well enough to communicate with anyone but perhaps anther engineer. The percentage who graduate from a college should not be greater than 5%, it should be the best, not the most.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,240
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12/15/2011 5:29:35 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
It used to be okay to have some people at the top and some people at the bottom.

Today, it is a big messy sandwich with crap mashed up between 2 liberal peices of bread.
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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12/15/2011 5:39:39 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/15/2011 5:29:35 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
It used to be okay to have some people at the top and some people at the bottom.

Today, it is a big messy sandwich with crap mashed up between 2 liberal peices of bread.

Methinks you miss my point, and not sure I can be clearer.