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Quick grammatical question

UnStupendousMan
Posts: 3,475
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12/24/2011 9:09:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Here is a situation that I surprisingly often find myself in: ending a phrase in a parentheses AND ending a sentence. I do not know wether to place the period within the parentheses (like this.) Or if I should place it outside the parentheses (like this). Currently, I use both. Though I suspect that there is a rule that clearly states that parenthesis should not be at the end of the sentence, but, if there is not, please tell me the correct placement.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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12/24/2011 10:04:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
(X). is correct. When you cite a source for example, it follows this formate "random and unidentified quote" (X). The period is after the parentheses.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
mongeese
Posts: 5,387
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12/25/2011 12:06:48 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
It depends on whether or not the parenthesis contain the sentence, or the sentence contains the parinthesis (like this). (Here's an example of the former.)

At least, that's the way I've always done it.
MasterKage
Posts: 1,257
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12/28/2011 9:00:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/25/2011 12:06:48 AM, mongeese wrote:
It depends on whether or not the parenthesis contain the sentence, or the sentence contains the parinthesis (like this). (Here's an example of the former.)

At least, that's the way I've always done it.

If it was this it would still be (X). because the ) is part of the sentence.
This signature is full of timey wimey wibbly wobbly stuff...
mongoose
Posts: 3,500
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12/29/2011 12:47:31 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Essentially, you should always be able to remove everything within the parenthesis and still have a completely grammatically correct paragraph.
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
mongeese
Posts: 5,387
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12/29/2011 1:05:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/28/2011 9:00:28 PM, MasterKage wrote:
At 12/25/2011 12:06:48 AM, mongeese wrote:
It depends on whether or not the parenthesis contain the sentence, or the sentence contains the parinthesis (like this). (Here's an example of the former.)

At least, that's the way I've always done it.

If it was this it would still be (X). because the ) is part of the sentence.

Which is correct, then?

A. Hello! (Goodbye.)
B. Hello! (Goodbye).

I'm pretty sure it's A, and mongoose agrees.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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12/29/2011 6:39:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Outside the parenthesis, as a parenthesis is offering a rejoinder within the sentence/point you're trying to make.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
UnStupendousMan
Posts: 3,475
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12/29/2011 6:39:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/29/2011 1:05:45 PM, mongeese wrote:
At 12/28/2011 9:00:28 PM, MasterKage wrote:
At 12/25/2011 12:06:48 AM, mongeese wrote:
It depends on whether or not the parenthesis contain the sentence, or the sentence contains the parinthesis (like this). (Here's an example of the former.)

At least, that's the way I've always done it.

If it was this it would still be (X). because the ) is part of the sentence.

Which is correct, then?

A. Hello! (Goodbye.)
B. Hello! (Goodbye).

I'm pretty sure it's A, and mongoose agrees.

The situation that I most often get into is Hello, (goodbye).
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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12/29/2011 6:41:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/29/2011 6:29:55 PM, nonentity wrote:
Mongoose and Mongeese are correct.

http://www.ehow.com...

(X.) for a complete thought, (X). for a fragment. In Mongeese's example:

A. Hello! (Goodbye.) ...Goodbye is a fragment, so it has to be Hello! (Goodbye). So, no the answer was B
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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12/29/2011 6:47:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/29/2011 6:41:16 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/29/2011 6:29:55 PM, nonentity wrote:
Mongoose and Mongeese are correct.

http://www.ehow.com...

(X.) for a complete thought, (X). for a fragment. In Mongeese's example:

A. Hello! (Goodbye.) ...Goodbye is a fragment, so it has to be Hello! (Goodbye). So, no the answer was B

As one of them said, if you take out the parentheses the sentence still has to be grammatically correct. If you take out the parentheses in your example, the entire sentence is comprised of a single period.

In your own link:

Place ending punctuation (period, question mark or exclamation point) inside the end parenthesis only if the passage inside the parentheses is a complete thought. For example, this sentence requires punctuation inside the end parenthesis because the passage inside parentheses is a complete sentence, "I was late for work. (I made up the time by staying late.)"

Since when is "goodbye" a fragment?
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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12/29/2011 7:01:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/29/2011 6:47:20 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 12/29/2011 6:41:16 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/29/2011 6:29:55 PM, nonentity wrote:
Mongoose and Mongeese are correct.

http://www.ehow.com...

(X.) for a complete thought, (X). for a fragment. In Mongeese's example:

A. Hello! (Goodbye.) ...Goodbye is a fragment, so it has to be Hello! (Goodbye). So, no the answer was B


As one of them said, if you take out the parentheses the sentence still has to be grammatically correct. If you take out the parentheses in your example, the entire sentence is comprised of a single period.

In your own link:

Place ending punctuation (period, question mark or exclamation point) inside the end parenthesis only if the passage inside the parentheses is a complete thought. For example, this sentence requires punctuation inside the end parenthesis because the passage inside parentheses is a complete sentence, "I was late for work. (I made up the time by staying late.)"


Since when is "goodbye" a fragment?

Technically not, but for these grammar rules you treat it like one. Here's another link from the same site: http://www.ehow.com...

look at their example.
"Mark examples. Parenthesis can be used to give examples of what you are discussing. You can use the abbreviations "i.e.," "a.k.a." or "ex." to further point out you are giving an example. "Some dogs are known to lock their jaws on their prey and not let go until the prey is dead (i.e. pit bulls)."

I suppose the problem with Mongeese's example is that Hello! (Goodbye)./Hello! (Goodbye.) would both never happen since its an incorrect use of parentheses.

l
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
nonentity
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12/31/2011 8:37:00 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/29/2011 7:01:57 PM, 000ike wrote:


Since when is "goodbye" a fragment?

Technically not, but for these grammar rules you treat it like one.

... No...

Here's another link from the same site: http://www.ehow.com...

look at their example.
"Mark examples. Parenthesis can be used to give examples of what you are discussing. You can use the abbreviations "i.e.," "a.k.a." or "ex." to further point out you are giving an example. "Some dogs are known to lock their jaws on their prey and not let go until the prey is dead (i.e. pit bulls)."

I suppose the problem with Mongeese's example is that Hello! (Goodbye)./Hello! (Goodbye.) would both never happen since its an incorrect use of parentheses.



Mongeese's example would not be used in formal writing, but it is a sort of writing style. "Hello! (Goodbye.)" could happen. "Hello! (Goodbye)." could never happen. As was mentioned before, you have to be able to remove everything in the parentheses and still have a proper sentence. If you remove everything in the parentheses of the latter example, you've got "Hello! ." which makes no sense. The only way the period could go after the parentheses is if there was no exclamation mark, ie. "Hello (goodbye)." and, in that case, "goodbye" would begin with a lower case "g".

I started off with English as my second major :p
nonentity
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12/31/2011 8:46:58 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/31/2011 8:37:00 AM, nonentity wrote:

I started off with English as my second major :p

I realize this looks like an appeal to authority... but it was meant to explain why I was going on and on about what's probably uninteresting to most people lol
RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
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1/2/2012 6:28:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Here is the official dictum from a style manual http://wps.ablongman.com... :

Examine the material enclosed by parentheses. Is it an entire sentence? If so, place the period inside the closing parenthesis.

Example: Margaret Fuller's major contribution to Transcendentalism was editing the magazine The Dial. (She also conducted discussions for women).

A sentence begins and ends inside the parentheses. Therefore, the period for that sentence also needs to go inside the closing parenthesis.

Revision: Margaret Fuller's major contribution to Transcendentalism was editing the magazine The Dial. (She also conducted discussions for women.)

If the parenthetical material is part of another sentence, place the period outside the closing parenthesis.

Example: Among the most famous Transcendentalists were Ralph Waldo Emerson and Bronson Alcott (the father of Louisa May Alcott.)

The parenthetical material is part of the preceding sentence. Therefore, the final period for that sentence should go outside the closing parenthesis.

Revised: Among the most famous Transcendentalists were Ralph Waldo Emerson and Bronson Alcott (the father of Louisa May Alcott).


The extension that I was taught is that if the parentheses and everything in them were to be deleted, what remains should still be correctly punctuated and grammatically correct.
wiploc
Posts: 1,485
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1/22/2012 7:46:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/29/2011 6:47:20 PM, nonentity wrote:
If you take out the parentheses in your example, the entire sentence is comprised of a
single period.

"Comprised of" is always wrong. You want either, "composed of," or "comprises."
wiploc
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1/22/2012 8:07:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
: At 1/2/2012 6:28:07 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
Here is the official dictum from a style manual http://wps.ablongman.com... :

Examine the material enclosed by parentheses. Is it an entire sentence? If so, place the period inside the closing parenthesis.

I think that puts your focus in the wrong place. That is, I think we can construct examples where that rule fails. Let me try:

"The French spy was plagiarizing when he said, 'Donnez-moi la liberté ou donnez-moi la mort' (Give me liberty or give me death).

What's in the parentheses is a complete sentence, but the period still belongs outside the parentheses.

So I propose the rule (I'm not the first one in this thread to propose it) that you look at what would be left if you took away the parentheses and their contents. Those hypothetical remnants must work with the parenthetical mass removed. If you need the period outside the parenthesis for those remnants to be correct, then that's where it belongs.

Here's the problem with "Hello! (Goodbye):

The bang (!) can work like either a period or a comma. And both of these work.

Hello. (Goodbye.)
Hello, (goodbye).

So, if you use a bang rather than a period or comma, you can't rely on the bang to guide you in the placement of your final punctuation. You have to watch the capitalization to know whether you are dealing with one sentence or two. That tells you where to put the period. Both of these are correct:

Hello! (Goodbye.)
Hello! (goodbye).

Hmm. That's the exception that proves the rule. (In the old sense: this exception to my rule proves that my rule is wrong.) In that last example, if we take away the parantheses and their contents, we do not get a proper construction. Thus:

Hello!.

And yet this is correct:

Hello! (goodbye).

So I'm reduced to the most basic of rules (Eyeball it, and do what's right).