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Does public education make people better off?

darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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1/24/2012 12:13:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The answer that most people would answer this question is a resounding "yes". However, I have yet to find any proof of this.

First off, If education has beneficial value for the individual, and has a positive payoff with a high salary, then why does the government need to subsidy it? Wouldn't individuals try to get an education anyways without the need of a government. And the amount of competition would lower the cost of education.

Second, many studies that show the benefits of education only seem to show correlations, but not causation. For example, the fact that those who get an education are less likely to be in jail. However, this does not mean the act of education caused this. People who get an education are more likely to be obedient, and be more future-oriented rather than present-oriented. There's also the fact that police officers and judges tend to be more lenient with educated and wealthy people rather than the poor and uneducated.
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sadolite
Posts: 8,839
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1/24/2012 11:31:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/24/2012 12:13:06 PM, darkkermit wrote:
The answer that most people would answer this question is a resounding "yes". However, I have yet to find any proof of this.

First off, If education has beneficial value for the individual, and has a positive payoff with a high salary, then why does the government need to subsidy it? Wouldn't individuals try to get an education anyways without the need of a government. And the amount of competition would lower the cost of education.

Second, many studies that show the benefits of education only seem to show correlations, but not causation. For example, the fact that those who get an education are less likely to be in jail. However, this does not mean the act of education caused this. People who get an education are more likely to be obedient, and be more future-oriented rather than present-oriented. There's also the fact that police officers and judges tend to be more lenient with educated and wealthy people rather than the poor and uneducated.

I do know public education is filled with political indoctrination that does everyone who attends a huge disservice and teaches ma bey half the people who attend to read at a sixth grade level on average. That's why colleges teach remedial English and math now. College is the new high school diploma.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
Phoenix_Reaper
Posts: 318
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1/26/2012 9:18:01 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I agree with you on higher education.

Grades 1 - 12 are a joke in needing of reform but basic math, English, and history need to be taught. Though I think 8 - 12 needs massive reform.

On college I find it completely useless. Though I am biased to an extent because I refuse to pay for an education.

It is just like High School education wise. The only difference is that the professors can't call your parents and you treated like an adult. You know what you need to do and it you do not do it entirely your own fault.

You are taught so much valuable knowledge that you will never use again. I mainly mean that towards some pre-requests* classes.
Phoenix Reaper - To rise from the ashes of defeat and claim your soul.

: At 3/15/2011 4:23:07 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
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Ren
Posts: 7,102
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1/26/2012 8:07:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I used to demonize the education system left and right. "Omg, it's such a failure; Omg, it needs reform."

I've since come to the conclusion that the education system would be perfectly fine if people knew what to do with knowledge and information, or if they were even interested in it.

The fact is that people would rather everything be trade-based or vocational. If things were set up that way, Americans would be happy as an illiterate in a photography class. But, our national leaders realize that although we'd be happy as hell, we'd also be stupid as all get-out, even stupider than we are now, and would likely end up Second, if not Third World.

Lol, the Netherlands, Japan, Russia, and Korea is already dominating the great minds market. I think it's time we reevaluated our values.
Starcraftzzz
Posts: 487
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2/23/2012 7:54:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/24/2012 12:13:06 PM, darkkermit wrote:
The answer that most people would answer this question is a resounding "yes". However, I have yet to find any proof of this.

First off, If education has beneficial value for the individual, and has a positive payoff with a high salary, then why does the government need to subsidy it?
1)Because it creates a lot of benefits governments want to subsides it in order for their country to be richer, smarter, healthier, have less crime, and so forth.
2)Because if government didn't subsidies poor/children with stupid parents would end up not getting an education at all

At 1/24/2012 12:13:06 PM, darkkermit wrote:
Wouldn't individuals try to get an education anyways without the need of a government. And the amount of competition would lower the cost of education.
So far competition has yet to produce any benefits
At 1/24/2012 12:13:06 PM, darkkermit wrote:
Second, many studies that show the benefits of education only seem to show correlations, but not causation. For example, the fact that those who get an education are less likely to be in jail. However, this does not mean the act of education caused this.
Those studies also take into account many other factors, such as race, income, parental status, etc etc. It is a valid causation via correlation because they've already excluded other factors
jenifferhype
Posts: 1
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1/7/2014 3:18:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Yes Education makes people better off, because having good education means you will be having good high paying job and from that high paying job you have good living. So education is very important it tell us the way of proper living and more confidence in our life. There are quick Degree program http://www.priorlearningdegree.com... from people who are interested to complete their education faster.
bubbatheclown
Posts: 1,258
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2/12/2014 12:45:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
What They Teach at Public School:

Basic Math:
Connor the Conservative had two bombs. His Neo-Nazi friend gave him three more bombs. How many bombs does Connor the Conservative have?

History:
Nazis=Republicans, Founding Fathers=Anti-Government Terrorists, Christianity=Evil

Spelling:
The Letter H: Harry the happy homosexual helps hurting hippos.

Science:
Remember kids, don't forget to get some birth control and do something that risks pregnancy! If you don't do it then you get an F! Abstinence?! What a ridiculous concept! Whoever suggested that is a bigot!

Need I say more?
PotBelliedGeek
Posts: 4,298
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2/13/2014 10:46:25 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Bullsh!t. That's what this thread is. A fvuckload of bullsh!t. It's because of fvcktards like you people who trash the idea of education that we have the problems we do. Education is Fvking solution, not the Fvking problem! It was education that built this nation up to the worlds greatest superpower, until Fvking duma$$es like you morons came along to demonize anyone who knows anything about something!
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ax123man
Posts: 317
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2/17/2014 9:38:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
PotBelliedGeek
darkkermit's post specifically said "public education". The fact that you can't tell or don't understand the difference between "public education" and "education" tells me your were, well, probably a victim of said public education.

Was it "public education" that built this nation up to greatness as you say? Given that much of the nations "greatness" was built prior to the formation of modern public education, I doubt it. Or did you miss out on your history lesson during your public education?

Speaking of causation vs correlation, which is it that explains the close relationship between the lack of rational thinking and the use of the word "fvcktard"?
rickyjames123
Posts: 2
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2/17/2014 11:25:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2012 12:13:06 PM, darkkermit wrote:
The answer that most people would answer this question is a resounding "yes". However, I have yet to find any proof of this.

First off, If education has beneficial value for the individual, and has a positive payoff with a high salary, then why does the government need to subsidy it? Wouldn't individuals try to get an education anyways without the need of a government. And the amount of competition would lower the cost of education.

Second, many studies that show the benefits of education only seem to show correlations, but not causation. For example, the fact that those who get an education are less likely to be in jail. However, this does not mean the act of education caused this. People who get an education are more likely to be obedient, and be more future-oriented rather than present-oriented. There's also the fact that police officers and judges tend to be more lenient with educated and wealthy people rather than the poor and uneducated.

I agree with u,,,,
sir amazing
tylergraham95
Posts: 1,461
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2/18/2014 11:28:56 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/13/2014 10:46:25 AM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
Bullsh!t. That's what this thread is. A fvuckload of bullsh!t. It's because of fvcktards like you people who trash the idea of education that we have the problems we do. Education is Fvking solution, not the Fvking problem! It was education that built this nation up to the worlds greatest superpower, until Fvking duma$$es like you morons came along to demonize anyone who knows anything about something!

Oh my goodness!
"we dig" - Jeanette Runquist (1943 - 2015)
tylergraham95
Posts: 1,461
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2/18/2014 11:35:48 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2012 11:31:09 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 1/24/2012 12:13:06 PM, darkkermit wrote:
The answer that most people would answer this question is a resounding "yes". However, I have yet to find any proof of this.

First off, If education has beneficial value for the individual, and has a positive payoff with a high salary, then why does the government need to subsidy it? Wouldn't individuals try to get an education anyways without the need of a government. And the amount of competition would lower the cost of education.

Second, many studies that show the benefits of education only seem to show correlations, but not causation. For example, the fact that those who get an education are less likely to be in jail. However, this does not mean the act of education caused this. People who get an education are more likely to be obedient, and be more future-oriented rather than present-oriented. There's also the fact that police officers and judges tend to be more lenient with educated and wealthy people rather than the poor and uneducated.

I do know public education is filled with political indoctrination that does everyone who attends a huge disservice and teaches ma bey half the people who attend to read at a sixth grade level on average. That's why colleges teach remedial English and math now. College is the new high school diploma.

Unless, of course, you take advanced courses at college, or attend a prestigious college, such as MIT.

Again, sadolite, you make a claim that is disproved by about 10 seconds of google searching. This indicates that you are willfully ignorant.

"Today's high schools students are taking harder classes and taking more of them than previous generations."

http://www.businessinsider.com...

"it is harder to get into four-year colleges now than ever before"

http://www.education.com...

Simple as that. Next time research your assertions before spouting them like an irate parrot.

Just because you are embarrassed with your own lack of education, doesn't mean that you can just trash other peoples education in order to make yourself feel better.

Luckily, I have been accepted into a very prestigious private college! :) So I don't have to stress out over picky college admissions.
"we dig" - Jeanette Runquist (1943 - 2015)
tylergraham95
Posts: 1,461
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2/18/2014 11:39:57 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/17/2014 9:38:42 PM, ax123man wrote:
PotBelliedGeek
darkkermit's post specifically said "public education". The fact that you can't tell or don't understand the difference between "public education" and "education" tells me your were, well, probably a victim of said public education.

Was it "public education" that built this nation up to greatness as you say? Given that much of the nations "greatness" was built prior to the formation of modern public education, I doubt it. Or did you miss out on your history lesson during your public education?

Speaking of causation vs correlation, which is it that explains the close relationship between the lack of rational thinking and the use of the word "fvcktard"?

I'd be willing to bet he's smarter than you.

Where did you attend university/college?
"we dig" - Jeanette Runquist (1943 - 2015)
ax123man
Posts: 317
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2/18/2014 5:31:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/18/2014 11:39:57 AM, tylergraham95 wrote:
At 2/17/2014 9:38:42 PM, ax123man wrote:
PotBelliedGeek
darkkermit's post specifically said "public education". The fact that you can't tell or don't understand the difference between "public education" and "education" tells me your were, well, probably a victim of said public education.

Was it "public education" that built this nation up to greatness as you say? Given that much of the nations "greatness" was built prior to the formation of modern public education, I doubt it. Or did you miss out on your history lesson during your public education?

Speaking of causation vs correlation, which is it that explains the close relationship between the lack of rational thinking and the use of the word "fvcktard"?

I'd be willing to bet he's smarter than you.

Where did you attend university/college?

"Smarter" based on what definition? In my opinion, attempts at measuring intelligence fail because they don't establish any sort of long term, worthwhile goal. They only perform small, quantifiable, fairly meaningless tasks. Take an entrepreneur. How do you measure the intelligence it takes to anticipate needs in the market? Is that on the IQ test? How do factor intelligence in when dealing with someone with an IQ of 180 who is incapable of working in a team environment?

What does University have to do with it? 99% of everything I know that is worth anything I learned after my B.S. degree. If I could do it again, I would have avoided waisting that four years.
tylergraham95
Posts: 1,461
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2/18/2014 6:50:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/18/2014 5:31:50 PM, ax123man wrote:
At 2/18/2014 11:39:57 AM, tylergraham95 wrote:
At 2/17/2014 9:38:42 PM, ax123man wrote:
PotBelliedGeek
darkkermit's post specifically said "public education". The fact that you can't tell or don't understand the difference between "public education" and "education" tells me your were, well, probably a victim of said public education.

Was it "public education" that built this nation up to greatness as you say? Given that much of the nations "greatness" was built prior to the formation of modern public education, I doubt it. Or did you miss out on your history lesson during your public education?

Speaking of causation vs correlation, which is it that explains the close relationship between the lack of rational thinking and the use of the word "fvcktard"?

I'd be willing to bet he's smarter than you.

Where did you attend university/college?


"Smarter" based on what definition? In my opinion, attempts at measuring intelligence fail because they don't establish any sort of long term, worthwhile goal. They only perform small, quantifiable, fairly meaningless tasks. Take an entrepreneur. How do you measure the intelligence it takes to anticipate needs in the market? Is that on the IQ test? How do factor intelligence in when dealing with someone with an IQ of 180 who is incapable of working in a team environment?

Smarter as in more intelligent, better educated, and wiser. It is hard to quantify, but it can be observed.

What does University have to do with it? 99% of everything I know that is worth anything I learned after my B.S. degree. If I could do it again, I would have avoided waisting that four years.

wasting*

Obviously, if you can't spell "wasting" then you need better education.
"we dig" - Jeanette Runquist (1943 - 2015)
ax123man
Posts: 317
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2/18/2014 7:06:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/18/2014 6:50:12 PM, tylergraham95 wrote:
At 2/18/2014 5:31:50 PM, ax123man wrote:
At 2/18/2014 11:39:57 AM, tylergraham95 wrote:
At 2/17/2014 9:38:42 PM, ax123man wrote:
PotBelliedGeek
darkkermit's post specifically said "public education". The fact that you can't tell or don't understand the difference between "public education" and "education" tells me your were, well, probably a victim of said public education.

Was it "public education" that built this nation up to greatness as you say? Given that much of the nations "greatness" was built prior to the formation of modern public education, I doubt it. Or did you miss out on your history lesson during your public education?

Speaking of causation vs correlation, which is it that explains the close relationship between the lack of rational thinking and the use of the word "fvcktard"?

I'd be willing to bet he's smarter than you.

Where did you attend university/college?


"Smarter" based on what definition? In my opinion, attempts at measuring intelligence fail because they don't establish any sort of long term, worthwhile goal. They only perform small, quantifiable, fairly meaningless tasks. Take an entrepreneur. How do you measure the intelligence it takes to anticipate needs in the market? Is that on the IQ test? How do factor intelligence in when dealing with someone with an IQ of 180 who is incapable of working in a team environment?

Smarter as in more intelligent, better educated, and wiser. It is hard to quantify, but it can be observed.

Observed maybe, but still, not accurately rated without a goal in mind.


What does University have to do with it? 99% of everything I know that is worth anything I learned after my B.S. degree. If I could do it again, I would have avoided waisting that four years.

wasting*

Obviously, if you can't spell "wasting" then you need better education.

I have friends who are are quite productive at what they do who can't spell a lick. Many individuals lack skills in certain areas and excel in others. Understanding this and figuring out how to take advantage of those skills in a team environment is a form of intelligence. It starts by avoiding criticizing those areas lacking. In the end, what matters is what we create and/or produce. Those who can't create become University Professors. This isn't hearsay. I've seen very "intelligent" people quit their private sector jobs because they were "too smart" to accept constructive criticism from others. Keep that in mind as you listen to the pompous windbags for four+ years. And be prepared to graduate being mostly unprepared for what awaits you.
tylergraham95
Posts: 1,461
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2/18/2014 7:34:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/18/2014 7:06:18 PM, ax123man wrote:
At 2/18/2014 6:50:12 PM, tylergraham95 wrote:
At 2/18/2014 5:31:50 PM, ax123man wrote:
At 2/18/2014 11:39:57 AM, tylergraham95 wrote:
At 2/17/2014 9:38:42 PM, ax123man wrote:
PotBelliedGeek
darkkermit's post specifically said "public education". The fact that you can't tell or don't understand the difference between "public education" and "education" tells me your were, well, probably a victim of said public education.

Was it "public education" that built this nation up to greatness as you say? Given that much of the nations "greatness" was built prior to the formation of modern public education, I doubt it. Or did you miss out on your history lesson during your public education?

Speaking of causation vs correlation, which is it that explains the close relationship between the lack of rational thinking and the use of the word "fvcktard"?

I'd be willing to bet he's smarter than you.

Where did you attend university/college?


"Smarter" based on what definition? In my opinion, attempts at measuring intelligence fail because they don't establish any sort of long term, worthwhile goal. They only perform small, quantifiable, fairly meaningless tasks. Take an entrepreneur. How do you measure the intelligence it takes to anticipate needs in the market? Is that on the IQ test? How do factor intelligence in when dealing with someone with an IQ of 180 who is incapable of working in a team environment?

Smarter as in more intelligent, better educated, and wiser. It is hard to quantify, but it can be observed.

Observed maybe, but still, not accurately rated without a goal in mind.


I'm not trying to quantify your intelligence. I'm simply observing that you are less intelligent than PBG.


What does University have to do with it? 99% of everything I know that is worth anything I learned after my B.S. degree. If I could do it again, I would have avoided waisting that four years.

wasting*

Obviously, if you can't spell "wasting" then you need better education.

I have friends who are are quite productive at what they do who can't spell a lick. Many individuals lack skills in certain areas and excel in others. Understanding this and figuring out how to take advantage of those skills in a team environment is a form of intelligence. It starts by avoiding criticizing those areas lacking. In the end, what matters is what we create and/or produce.

Now your trying to quantify success, which REALLY can't be quantified.

Those who can't create become University Professors.

That's incredibly ignorant to say. Do you even know what it takes to get a phd? Or the requirements to maintain a position as a professor?
To get your Phd, you must contribute significantly to your field, and (most) colleges require that you continue to publish scholarly works in order to maintain your position. You absolutely have to be able to create.

You especially have to create good students.

This isn't hearsay. I've seen very "intelligent" people quit their private sector jobs because they were "too smart" to accept constructive criticism from others.

This is purely anecdotal evidence.

Keep that in mind as you listen to the pompous windbags for four+ years. And be prepared to graduate being mostly unprepared for what awaits you.

If this were true, then why do employers require that you have a degree? Why must you have attend medical school in order to become a doctor?

On a related note, would you trust someone without their medical degree to perform surgery on you?
Would you trust someone without a law degree to be your attorney in court?
Would you trust someone without an accounting degree to manage your investments?
Would you trust someone without their pharmaceutical degree to prepare your medicine?

Do you consider those with college degrees more educated than those without, regardless of job readiness?
"we dig" - Jeanette Runquist (1943 - 2015)
ax123man
Posts: 317
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2/19/2014 8:48:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/18/2014 7:34:23 PM, tylergraham95 wrote:
At 2/18/2014 7:06:18 PM, ax123man wrote:
At 2/18/2014 6:50:12 PM, tylergraham95 wrote:
At 2/18/2014 5:31:50 PM, ax123man wrote:
At 2/18/2014 11:39:57 AM, tylergraham95 wrote:
At 2/17/2014 9:38:42 PM, ax123man wrote:
PotBelliedGeek
darkkermit's post specifically said "public education". The fact that you can't tell or don't understand the difference between "public education" and "education" tells me your were, well, probably a victim of said public education.

Was it "public education" that built this nation up to greatness as you say? Given that much of the nations "greatness" was built prior to the formation of modern public education, I doubt it. Or did you miss out on your history lesson during your public education?

Speaking of causation vs correlation, which is it that explains the close relationship between the lack of rational thinking and the use of the word "fvcktard"?

I'd be willing to bet he's smarter than you.

Where did you attend university/college?


"Smarter" based on what definition? In my opinion, attempts at measuring intelligence fail because they don't establish any sort of long term, worthwhile goal. They only perform small, quantifiable, fairly meaningless tasks. Take an entrepreneur. How do you measure the intelligence it takes to anticipate needs in the market? Is that on the IQ test? How do factor intelligence in when dealing with someone with an IQ of 180 who is incapable of working in a team environment?

Smarter as in more intelligent, better educated, and wiser. It is hard to quantify, but it can be observed.

Observed maybe, but still, not accurately rated without a goal in mind.


I'm not trying to quantify your intelligence. I'm simply observing that you are less intelligent than PBG.

So two things here. One, you compare my intelligence without quantifying it. Huh? And two, you somehow determined my intelligence from DDO forum post. Wow, you're a wizard. Prediction: you become a Univ. professor because you seem to like to live in your own little bubble.



What does University have to do with it? 99% of everything I know that is worth anything I learned after my B.S. degree. If I could do it again, I would have avoided waisting that four years.

wasting*

Obviously, if you can't spell "wasting" then you need better education.

I have friends who are are quite productive at what they do who can't spell a lick. Many individuals lack skills in certain areas and excel in others. Understanding this and figuring out how to take advantage of those skills in a team environment is a form of intelligence. It starts by avoiding criticizing those areas lacking. In the end, what matters is what we create and/or produce.

Now your trying to quantify success, which REALLY can't be quantified.

I didn't even use the word success. Now you're just making sh!it up.


Those who can't create become University Professors.

That's incredibly ignorant to say. Do you even know what it takes to get a phd? Or the requirements to maintain a position as a professor?
To get your Phd, you must contribute significantly to your field, and (most) colleges require that you continue to publish scholarly works in order to maintain your position. You absolutely have to be able to create.

You especially have to create good students.

I've spent hours reading the drivel produced by professors. As an example, take the SEI out of Carnegie Mellon. It's self-aggrandizing garbage. Everything worthwhile I've learned about my profession was written by those who actually produce products in the real world. Do I know what it takes to get a PHD? Like I said, and you apparently quickly forgot, I have friends who've gone thru it. Painful, yep. And you can take it all and burn it, except for the golden ticket (degree)

Professors have to create good students? Now your delusional. Why must they do this? What happens if they don't? Nothing. Do the same in the private sector and you get shown the door, a demotion, or your desk moved into the basement.


This isn't hearsay. I've seen very "intelligent" people quit their private sector jobs because they were "too smart" to accept constructive criticism from others.

This is purely anecdotal evidence.

So? Anecdotal doesn't equal false. It would be impossible to measure this. However, the term "ivory tower" comes to mind.

I'm not criticizing all professors, just most of them. There are probably a few hundred thousand total of which maybe 1% is worth anything.


Keep that in mind as you listen to the pompous windbags for four+ years. And be prepared to graduate being mostly unprepared for what awaits you.

If this were true, then why do employers require that you have a degree? Why must you have attend medical school in order to become a doctor?

The reason employers "require" a degree has nothing to do with professors and what they teach. It is simply that, if you can sloth thru four years of it, you've at least shown you can do something. I've participated in dozens of hiring interviews. I don't look at the GPA or the school. I don't care. Yes, it's true that whoever filtered the resumes did look at that, but out of convenience mostly. Also, employers don't necessarily require a degree. It depends on many things, such as the profession, the business, or simply your ability to get creative. Let me put it to you this way. If I was sitting at my desk and an 18 year old walked in an told me he chose to skip college, was self-taught and thought he could do the job now, I'd find out in about five minutes and he would either be sent packing or he'd be back for another interview. If I was impressed, I'd forward his resume to a contacts at a dozen fortune 500's. He'd have saved himself four years and 80$ grand.

As for medical school & doctors, that's a legal requirement put in place by the AMA, which is cartel sanctioned by the feds.


On a related note, would you trust someone without their medical degree to perform surgery on you?
Would you trust someone without a law degree to be your attorney in court?
Would you trust someone without an accounting degree to manage your investments?
Would you trust someone without their pharmaceutical degree to prepare your medicine?

I've done my own investing, taxes and business accounting my whole life. It isn't that difficult. As for the rest, these questions miss the point. Medicine is highly regulated and cartelized. It's very difficult for an entrepreneur with an idea of improving medical practice to make that happen. It's incredibly anti-competitive and monopolistic. I will say this. If I do need surgery, I won't be going to a local government subsidized hospital. I'll go here: www.surgerycenterok.com. Cheaper and higher quality, as is always the case compared to a monopoly.


Do you consider those with college degrees more educated than those without, regardless of job readiness?

On average, yes. But your missing the point again. Compared to what? Where are the choices? Everyone, like sheep, follows the same path. Personally, if I could do it again, I would self teach. I've done that anyway since my B.S. and it's been more effective.

Zero hedge, as usual, summarizes it up nicely:
http://www.zerohedge.com...
sadolite
Posts: 8,839
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2/28/2014 4:27:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/26/2012 9:18:01 AM, Phoenix_Reaper wrote:
I agree with you on higher education.

Grades 1 - 12 are a joke in needing of reform but basic math, English, and history need to be taught. Though I think 8 - 12 needs massive reform.

On college I find it completely useless. Though I am biased to an extent because I refuse to pay for an education.

It is just like High School education wise. The only difference is that the professors can't call your parents and you treated like an adult. You know what you need to do and it you do not do it entirely your own fault.

You are taught so much valuable knowledge that you will never use again. I mainly mean that towards some pre-requests* classes.

Huh, I have paid for (two) 4 year state college tuition's so far in my life time. And Ironically, have never been to college.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%