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Free College Education

tyler90az
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1/29/2012 4:48:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Do you support free college education? Why, why not?
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
16kadams
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1/29/2012 5:02:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/29/2012 4:48:29 PM, tyler90az wrote:
Do you support free college education? Why, why not?

explain how it would be come free, then we converse. a scholarship yes, goverment intervention no.
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000ike
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1/29/2012 5:02:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Education is the key to success. If you put a price on education, those born poor will never rise, and then we have a vicious generational cycle of poverty and lack of education for those unfortunate enough to be born in a home of low socioeconomic standing.

At this point in time, a highschool degree will get you nothing. We've reached a point where we need to do one of three things. Give financial aid to those seeking to attend college, make college less expensive, or make it free. It is our duty to society to help those disparaged (of no fault of their own) by this iniquitous, capitalistic economy of ours.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
16kadams
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1/29/2012 5:04:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/29/2012 5:02:30 PM, 000ike wrote:
Education is the key to success. If you put a price on education, those born poor will never rise, and then we have a vicious generational cycle of poverty and lack of education for those unfortunate enough to be born in a home of low socioeconomic standing.

At this point in time, a highschool degree will get you nothing. We've reached a point where we need to do one of three things. Give financial aid to those seeking to attend college, make college less expensive, or make it free. It is our duty to society to help those disparaged (of no fault of their own) by this iniquitous, capitalistic economy of ours.

I agree but you forget that the colleges would not profit and then they would teach poorly.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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1/29/2012 5:06:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
My problem with it is that if there was no cost, it wouldn't give the universities as much incentive to get better. Like better equipment and education.

If its government controlled, they can settle for ok.
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000ike
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1/29/2012 5:09:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/29/2012 5:04:57 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 1/29/2012 5:02:30 PM, 000ike wrote:
Education is the key to success. If you put a price on education, those born poor will never rise, and then we have a vicious generational cycle of poverty and lack of education for those unfortunate enough to be born in a home of low socioeconomic standing.

At this point in time, a highschool degree will get you nothing. We've reached a point where we need to do one of three things. Give financial aid to those seeking to attend college, make college less expensive, or make it free. It is our duty to society to help those disparaged (of no fault of their own) by this iniquitous, capitalistic economy of ours.

I agree but you forget that the colleges would not profit and then they would teach poorly.

myth. Colleges do not profit from their quality of teachers. They profit from their name and prominence. Bad teachers are in Harvard, bad teachers are in every college. So, that argument about competition is so unreal and theoretical that I find it utterly irrelevant and not worth mentioning.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
DetectableNinja
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1/29/2012 5:42:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/29/2012 5:02:30 PM, 000ike wrote:
Education is the key to success. If you put a price on education, those born poor will never rise, and then we have a vicious generational cycle of poverty and lack of education for those unfortunate enough to be born in a home of low socioeconomic standing.

At this point in time, a highschool degree will get you nothing. We've reached a point where we need to do one of three things. Give financial aid to those seeking to attend college, make college less expensive, or make it free. It is our duty to society to help those disparaged (of no fault of their own) by this iniquitous, capitalistic economy of ours.

You neglect to address the problem that even a college degree will probably get you nothing. Why do you think high school degrees became less valuable? Because more and more people are going to college. You know why bachelor's degrees are losing their value? Because they aren't as rare.

Making it so that everyone can go to college (which everyone will, assuming that these people are truly disparaged through no fault of their own) will then make it so that you'll then have to pay for master's, and Ph.D's, and then give everyone a job.

It's basic supply and demand. Either there will be a near limitless supply and near no demand, disparaging nearly everyone, or there will be moderate supply and moderate demanding, disparaging a lot less people. And yes, what I am saying sounds heartless, but it's true: for there to be any success in our capitalist economy, there must be the failure as well; or else there is no demand anymore.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
000ike
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1/29/2012 5:50:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/29/2012 5:42:55 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 1/29/2012 5:02:30 PM, 000ike wrote:
Education is the key to success. If you put a price on education, those born poor will never rise, and then we have a vicious generational cycle of poverty and lack of education for those unfortunate enough to be born in a home of low socioeconomic standing.

At this point in time, a highschool degree will get you nothing. We've reached a point where we need to do one of three things. Give financial aid to those seeking to attend college, make college less expensive, or make it free. It is our duty to society to help those disparaged (of no fault of their own) by this iniquitous, capitalistic economy of ours.

You neglect to address the problem that even a college degree will probably get you nothing. Why do you think high school degrees became less valuable? Because more and more people are going to college. You know why bachelor's degrees are losing their value? Because they aren't as rare.

Making it so that everyone can go to college (which everyone will, assuming that these people are truly disparaged through no fault of their own) will then make it so that you'll then have to pay for master's, and Ph.D's, and then give everyone a job.

It's basic supply and demand. Either there will be a near limitless supply and near no demand, disparaging nearly everyone, or there will be moderate supply and moderate demanding, disparaging a lot less people. And yes, what I am saying sounds heartless, but it's true: for there to be any success in our capitalist economy, there must be the failure as well; or else there is no demand anymore.

Wrong. The reason your logic is wrong is because you automatically presumed that free education would result in less demand and have everyone with a degree. This is not the case. I want high education to be accessible regardless of socioeconomic status, but then what should follow in your mind is that obtaining PhDs and masters degrees should be given according to one's performance in school, and not everyone will perform equally.

The rarity of such degrees will still exist, but the access to them will be fair. So, the demand will still exist, but on a just basis.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
PARADIGM_L0ST
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1/29/2012 5:52:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/29/2012 4:48:29 PM, tyler90az wrote:
Do you support free college education? Why, why not?:

There's no such thing as free college education. Whether you personally foot the bill is a different matter, but somebody always pays for the bill.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
PARADIGM_L0ST
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1/29/2012 5:55:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/29/2012 4:48:29 PM, tyler90az wrote:
Do you support free college education? Why, why not?:

Oh, and you never want to saturate the market with too many college grads... completely defeats the purpose of going to college to give you a competitive advantage.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Logic_on_rails
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1/29/2012 5:55:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/29/2012 5:42:55 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 1/29/2012 5:02:30 PM, 000ike wrote:
Education is the key to success. If you put a price on education, those born poor will never rise, and then we have a vicious generational cycle of poverty and lack of education for those unfortunate enough to be born in a home of low socioeconomic standing.

At this point in time, a highschool degree will get you nothing. We've reached a point where we need to do one of three things. Give financial aid to those seeking to attend college, make college less expensive, or make it free. It is our duty to society to help those disparaged (of no fault of their own) by this iniquitous, capitalistic economy of ours.

You neglect to address the problem that even a college degree will probably get you nothing. Why do you think high school degrees became less valuable? Because more and more people are going to college. You know why bachelor's degrees are losing their value? Because they aren't as rare.

Making it so that everyone can go to college (which everyone will, assuming that these people are truly disparaged through no fault of their own) will then make it so that you'll then have to pay for master's, and Ph.D's, and then give everyone a job.

It's basic supply and demand. Either there will be a near limitless supply and near no demand, disparaging nearly everyone, or there will be moderate supply and moderate demanding, disparaging a lot less people. And yes, what I am saying sounds heartless, but it's true: for there to be any success in our capitalist economy, there must be the failure as well; or else there is no demand anymore.

It's true, the value of the degrees themselves will depreciate. However, a more educated society means a more prosperous society, so having everybody be educated for longer is effectively increasing your productivity of labour and specialisation, which isn't bad.

Now, will the gaps between incomes be reduced? Perhaps not. However, incomes as a whole will rise.
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
000ike
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1/29/2012 5:55:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/29/2012 5:52:32 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 1/29/2012 4:48:29 PM, tyler90az wrote:
Do you support free college education? Why, why not?:

There's no such thing as free college education. Whether you personally foot the bill is a different matter, but somebody always pays for the bill.

yeah, its called taxes. You live in society, you benefit from the unfair disparities of our capitalist economy, you give back. Short and simple.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
PARADIGM_L0ST
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1/29/2012 5:58:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/29/2012 5:55:48 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 1/29/2012 5:52:32 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 1/29/2012 4:48:29 PM, tyler90az wrote:
Do you support free college education? Why, why not?:

There's no such thing as free college education. Whether you personally foot the bill is a different matter, but somebody always pays for the bill.

yeah, its called taxes. You live in society, you benefit from the unfair disparities of our capitalist economy, you give back. Short and simple.:

That's kind of funny you mention that, because the schools themselves operate under said unfair capitalist economies.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
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1/29/2012 5:58:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Wrong. The reason your logic is wrong is because you automatically presumed that free education would result in less demand and have everyone with a degree. This is not the case. I want high education to be accessible regardless of socioeconomic status, but then what should follow in your mind is that obtaining PhDs and masters degrees should be given according to one's performance in school, and not everyone will perform equally.

The rarity of such degrees will still exist, but the access to them will be fair. So, the demand will still exist, but on a just basis.

It's a great vision but eventually we're gonna have to ground it in reality. My college costs 50k/year and that's around how much the median household income is in the US. With demand going up, college prices are going to keep increasing. Then you claim grad school ideally should be afforded based on merit which I agree with, but again we need to find a willing base of taxpayers who are able to cover it. The costs of system would already be astronomical and show no sign of slowing down.
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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1/29/2012 6:01:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/29/2012 5:50:56 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 1/29/2012 5:42:55 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 1/29/2012 5:02:30 PM, 000ike wrote:
Education is the key to success. If you put a price on education, those born poor will never rise, and then we have a vicious generational cycle of poverty and lack of education for those unfortunate enough to be born in a home of low socioeconomic standing.

At this point in time, a highschool degree will get you nothing. We've reached a point where we need to do one of three things. Give financial aid to those seeking to attend college, make college less expensive, or make it free. It is our duty to society to help those disparaged (of no fault of their own) by this iniquitous, capitalistic economy of ours.

You neglect to address the problem that even a college degree will probably get you nothing. Why do you think high school degrees became less valuable? Because more and more people are going to college. You know why bachelor's degrees are losing their value? Because they aren't as rare.

Making it so that everyone can go to college (which everyone will, assuming that these people are truly disparaged through no fault of their own) will then make it so that you'll then have to pay for master's, and Ph.D's, and then give everyone a job.

It's basic supply and demand. Either there will be a near limitless supply and near no demand, disparaging nearly everyone, or there will be moderate supply and moderate demanding, disparaging a lot less people. And yes, what I am saying sounds heartless, but it's true: for there to be any success in our capitalist economy, there must be the failure as well; or else there is no demand anymore.

Wrong. The reason your logic is wrong is because you automatically presumed that free education would result in less demand and have everyone with a degree. This is not the case. I want high education to be accessible regardless of socioeconomic status, but then what should follow in your mind is that obtaining PhDs and masters degrees should be given according to one's performance in school, and not everyone will perform equally.

The rarity of such degrees will still exist, but the access to them will be fair. So, the demand will still exist, but on a just basis.

What do you mean? If everyone can gain access to a bachelor's degree, the rarity will decrease significantly. And then, when no one can get a job and everyone becomes disparaged, then the next step is to help everyone get master's degrees. And then doctorates. And then, by that point, there is no rarity.

My point about rarity is proven through the influx of many more college students and high school students graduating. Back in the day, a person could survive just off of a high school degree, but now they can't due to the higher amount of graduates. The same applies to college. Why do you think competition to get into colleges has spiked so dramatically? Because everyone and their mother is going to college.

Not only that, but federal financial aid and scholarships already exist on a number of levels. If a person is socioeconomically challenged, they can get a scholarship for either academics or sport, or apply for federal financial aid. Hell, in my state you can join a state-run covenant that pays for your higher education as long as you maintain a B-average and go to a state school, like UW-Milwaukee, or UW-Madison. Really, you're advocating for a solution to a nonissue.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
000ike
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1/29/2012 6:04:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/29/2012 6:01:11 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:

What do you mean? If everyone can gain access to a bachelor's degree, the rarity will decrease significantly. And then, when no one can get a job and everyone becomes disparaged, then the next step is to help everyone get master's degrees. And then doctorates. And then, by that point, there is no rarity.

My point about rarity is proven through the influx of many more college students and high school students graduating. Back in the day, a person could survive just off of a high school degree, but now they can't due to the higher amount of graduates. The same applies to college. Why do you think competition to get into colleges has spiked so dramatically? Because everyone and their mother is going to college.

Not only that, but federal financial aid and scholarships already exist on a number of levels. If a person is socioeconomically challenged, they can get a scholarship for either academics or sport, or apply for federal financial aid. Hell, in my state you can join a state-run covenant that pays for your higher education as long as you maintain a B-average and go to a state school, like UW-Milwaukee, or UW-Madison. Really, you're advocating for a solution to a nonissue.

You're not listening to me. I said that they would receive certain degrees according to their performance in college, not simply for attending college. Unless you believe that everyone will perform equally, how will the high degrees decrease in rarity?
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
PARADIGM_L0ST
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1/29/2012 6:10:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
You're not listening to me. I said that they would receive certain degrees according to their performance in college, not simply for attending college. Unless you believe that everyone will perform equally, how will the high degrees decrease in rarity?:

He didn't say it would decrease in rarity, he's pointing out that because they aren't rare, their value is severely diminished. Nobody gives a crap that anyone graduated high school because it's expected of them already. He's noting the same phenomena in BS degrees. There are too many college grads and they are indebting themselves unecessarily. Unless you have a Masters or a PhD, you're considered average and therefore don't have any kind of competitive advantage... instead you have a degree and a sh*t ton of debt.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
000ike
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1/29/2012 6:11:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/29/2012 6:10:06 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
You're not listening to me. I said that they would receive certain degrees according to their performance in college, not simply for attending college. Unless you believe that everyone will perform equally, how will the high degrees decrease in rarity?:

He didn't say it would decrease in rarity, he's pointing out that because they aren't rare, their value is severely diminished.

This is a flat out contradiction, are you kidding me?....now you're not listening to me either.

Nobody gives a crap that anyone graduated high school because it's expected of them already. He's noting the same phenomena in BS degrees. There are too many college grads and they are indebting themselves unecessarily. Unless you have a Masters or a PhD, you're considered average and therefore don't have any kind of competitive advantage... instead you have a degree and a sh*t ton of debt.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
DetectableNinja
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1/29/2012 6:19:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/29/2012 6:04:38 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 1/29/2012 6:01:11 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:

What do you mean? If everyone can gain access to a bachelor's degree, the rarity will decrease significantly. And then, when no one can get a job and everyone becomes disparaged, then the next step is to help everyone get master's degrees. And then doctorates. And then, by that point, there is no rarity.

My point about rarity is proven through the influx of many more college students and high school students graduating. Back in the day, a person could survive just off of a high school degree, but now they can't due to the higher amount of graduates. The same applies to college. Why do you think competition to get into colleges has spiked so dramatically? Because everyone and their mother is going to college.

Not only that, but federal financial aid and scholarships already exist on a number of levels. If a person is socioeconomically challenged, they can get a scholarship for either academics or sport, or apply for federal financial aid. Hell, in my state you can join a state-run covenant that pays for your higher education as long as you maintain a B-average and go to a state school, like UW-Milwaukee, or UW-Madison. Really, you're advocating for a solution to a nonissue.

You're not listening to me. I said that they would receive certain degrees according to their performance in college, not simply for attending college. Unless you believe that everyone will perform equally, how will the high degrees decrease in rarity?

The high degrees will decrease because your solution is meant to stop people from being disparaged. Because having everyone go to college and get a primary degree, more people will be disparaged, meaning that to decrease disparagement, you then have to help people get a master's, and so on.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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1/29/2012 6:24:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/29/2012 6:19:38 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 1/29/2012 6:04:38 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 1/29/2012 6:01:11 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:

What do you mean? If everyone can gain access to a bachelor's degree, the rarity will decrease significantly. And then, when no one can get a job and everyone becomes disparaged, then the next step is to help everyone get master's degrees. And then doctorates. And then, by that point, there is no rarity.

My point about rarity is proven through the influx of many more college students and high school students graduating. Back in the day, a person could survive just off of a high school degree, but now they can't due to the higher amount of graduates. The same applies to college. Why do you think competition to get into colleges has spiked so dramatically? Because everyone and their mother is going to college.

Not only that, but federal financial aid and scholarships already exist on a number of levels. If a person is socioeconomically challenged, they can get a scholarship for either academics or sport, or apply for federal financial aid. Hell, in my state you can join a state-run covenant that pays for your higher education as long as you maintain a B-average and go to a state school, like UW-Milwaukee, or UW-Madison. Really, you're advocating for a solution to a nonissue.

You're not listening to me. I said that they would receive certain degrees according to their performance in college, not simply for attending college. Unless you believe that everyone will perform equally, how will the high degrees decrease in rarity?

The high degrees will decrease because your solution is meant to stop people from being disparaged. Because having everyone go to college and get a primary degree, more people will be disparaged, meaning that to decrease disparagement, you then have to help people get a master's, and so on.

No, you're not understanding what I'm saying. I'm saying that we should eliminate the factor of socioeconomic status when it comes to ACCESS to higher education, but disparities will still exist, except according to how one PERFORMS in school. Few people will meet the criteria for the PhD and other Doctorates, because few people get near perfect GPAs. So your fear that the degrees will become so commonplace that the demand is lost, is completely unfounded.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
DetectableNinja
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1/29/2012 6:25:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/29/2012 6:24:00 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 1/29/2012 6:19:38 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 1/29/2012 6:04:38 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 1/29/2012 6:01:11 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:

What do you mean? If everyone can gain access to a bachelor's degree, the rarity will decrease significantly. And then, when no one can get a job and everyone becomes disparaged, then the next step is to help everyone get master's degrees. And then doctorates. And then, by that point, there is no rarity.

My point about rarity is proven through the influx of many more college students and high school students graduating. Back in the day, a person could survive just off of a high school degree, but now they can't due to the higher amount of graduates. The same applies to college. Why do you think competition to get into colleges has spiked so dramatically? Because everyone and their mother is going to college.

Not only that, but federal financial aid and scholarships already exist on a number of levels. If a person is socioeconomically challenged, they can get a scholarship for either academics or sport, or apply for federal financial aid. Hell, in my state you can join a state-run covenant that pays for your higher education as long as you maintain a B-average and go to a state school, like UW-Milwaukee, or UW-Madison. Really, you're advocating for a solution to a nonissue.

You're not listening to me. I said that they would receive certain degrees according to their performance in college, not simply for attending college. Unless you believe that everyone will perform equally, how will the high degrees decrease in rarity?

The high degrees will decrease because your solution is meant to stop people from being disparaged. Because having everyone go to college and get a primary degree, more people will be disparaged, meaning that to decrease disparagement, you then have to help people get a master's, and so on.

No, you're not understanding what I'm saying. I'm saying that we should eliminate the factor of socioeconomic status when it comes to ACCESS to higher education, but disparities will still exist, except according to how one PERFORMS in school. Few people will meet the criteria for the PhD and other Doctorates, because few people get near perfect GPAs. So your fear that the degrees will become so commonplace that the demand is lost, is completely unfounded.

Right, but, you still haven't addressed the fact that achieving higher education is a nonissue.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
PARADIGM_L0ST
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1/29/2012 6:29:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/29/2012 6:11:59 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 1/29/2012 6:10:06 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
You're not listening to me. I said that they would receive certain degrees according to their performance in college, not simply for attending college. Unless you believe that everyone will perform equally, how will the high degrees decrease in rarity?:

He didn't say it would decrease in rarity, he's pointing out that because they aren't rare, their value is severely diminished.

This is a flat out contradiction, are you kidding me?....now you're not listening to me either.:

Or you aren't understanding the argument. He's saying (and I agree) that because high school diplomas are not rare, is precisely why they don't have much value to them. No one says, "Wow, you're a graduate of Grover Cleveland High?!?! Holy smokes, here's a six-figure job."

Rather, they say, "Good, you have a high school diploma which meets this companies baisc criteria to work here. Here's your mop."
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
000ike
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1/29/2012 6:30:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/29/2012 6:25:25 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 1/29/2012 6:24:00 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 1/29/2012 6:19:38 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 1/29/2012 6:04:38 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 1/29/2012 6:01:11 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:

What do you mean? If everyone can gain access to a bachelor's degree, the rarity will decrease significantly. And then, when no one can get a job and everyone becomes disparaged, then the next step is to help everyone get master's degrees. And then doctorates. And then, by that point, there is no rarity.

My point about rarity is proven through the influx of many more college students and high school students graduating. Back in the day, a person could survive just off of a high school degree, but now they can't due to the higher amount of graduates. The same applies to college. Why do you think competition to get into colleges has spiked so dramatically? Because everyone and their mother is going to college.

Not only that, but federal financial aid and scholarships already exist on a number of levels. If a person is socioeconomically challenged, they can get a scholarship for either academics or sport, or apply for federal financial aid. Hell, in my state you can join a state-run covenant that pays for your higher education as long as you maintain a B-average and go to a state school, like UW-Milwaukee, or UW-Madison. Really, you're advocating for a solution to a nonissue.

You're not listening to me. I said that they would receive certain degrees according to their performance in college, not simply for attending college. Unless you believe that everyone will perform equally, how will the high degrees decrease in rarity?

The high degrees will decrease because your solution is meant to stop people from being disparaged. Because having everyone go to college and get a primary degree, more people will be disparaged, meaning that to decrease disparagement, you then have to help people get a master's, and so on.

No, you're not understanding what I'm saying. I'm saying that we should eliminate the factor of socioeconomic status when it comes to ACCESS to higher education, but disparities will still exist, except according to how one PERFORMS in school. Few people will meet the criteria for the PhD and other Doctorates, because few people get near perfect GPAs. So your fear that the degrees will become so commonplace that the demand is lost, is completely unfounded.

Right, but, you still haven't addressed the fact that achieving higher education is a nonissue.

it is an issue! people don't have access to college because they frankly cannot pay for it. Tuition is shooting through the roofs, people are walking out of college with thousands in debt - the likes of which they will spend chunks of their ensuing income to eliminate. Loans are financial bondage, which is no way to start off your adult life, and then scholarships won't always cover everything, and aren't always necessarily available to those that need AND deserve them.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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1/29/2012 6:36:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/29/2012 6:30:14 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 1/29/2012 6:25:25 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 1/29/2012 6:24:00 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 1/29/2012 6:19:38 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 1/29/2012 6:04:38 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 1/29/2012 6:01:11 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:

What do you mean? If everyone can gain access to a bachelor's degree, the rarity will decrease significantly. And then, when no one can get a job and everyone becomes disparaged, then the next step is to help everyone get master's degrees. And then doctorates. And then, by that point, there is no rarity.

My point about rarity is proven through the influx of many more college students and high school students graduating. Back in the day, a person could survive just off of a high school degree, but now they can't due to the higher amount of graduates. The same applies to college. Why do you think competition to get into colleges has spiked so dramatically? Because everyone and their mother is going to college.

Not only that, but federal financial aid and scholarships already exist on a number of levels. If a person is socioeconomically challenged, they can get a scholarship for either academics or sport, or apply for federal financial aid. Hell, in my state you can join a state-run covenant that pays for your higher education as long as you maintain a B-average and go to a state school, like UW-Milwaukee, or UW-Madison. Really, you're advocating for a solution to a nonissue.

You're not listening to me. I said that they would receive certain degrees according to their performance in college, not simply for attending college. Unless you believe that everyone will perform equally, how will the high degrees decrease in rarity?

The high degrees will decrease because your solution is meant to stop people from being disparaged. Because having everyone go to college and get a primary degree, more people will be disparaged, meaning that to decrease disparagement, you then have to help people get a master's, and so on.

No, you're not understanding what I'm saying. I'm saying that we should eliminate the factor of socioeconomic status when it comes to ACCESS to higher education, but disparities will still exist, except according to how one PERFORMS in school. Few people will meet the criteria for the PhD and other Doctorates, because few people get near perfect GPAs. So your fear that the degrees will become so commonplace that the demand is lost, is completely unfounded.

Right, but, you still haven't addressed the fact that achieving higher education is a nonissue.

it is an issue! people don't have access to college because they frankly cannot pay for it. Tuition is shooting through the roofs, people are walking out of college with thousands in debt - the likes of which they will spend chunks of their ensuing income to eliminate. Loans are financial bondage, which is no way to start off your adult life, and then scholarships won't always cover everything, and aren't always necessarily available to those that need AND deserve them.

Access to higher education for the socioeconomically disparaged is not an issue, no.

Federal financial aid always exists, higher education can be found in community colleges where courses cost only about 20$ or so. Scholarships always exist too, and can be obtained by those willing to seek them out.

There are many avenues to get a higher education. The only ones who suffer are those that are unwilling to work for one, or those who are unwilling to accept higher education from a place that isn't Ivy League.

Besides: assuming it even IS an issue, you wanna know why it is? Because too many people are going to college.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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1/29/2012 6:43:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
it is an issue! people don't have access to college because they frankly cannot pay for it. Tuition is shooting through the roofs, people are walking out of college with thousands in debt - the likes of which they will spend chunks of their ensuing income to eliminate. Loans are financial bondage, which is no way to start off your adult life, and then scholarships won't always cover everything, and aren't always necessarily available to those that need AND deserve them.:

It's simple dollars and cents here. In order to pay for everyone's college tuition would require taxing upwards of 50% of everyones income in order to cover the cost. If that's the case, then then there is no effectual change whether you are paying loans privately or whether you are paying the hefty tax... except to say that with the loan, you have a choice not to take out a loan in the first place. Not the case with a compulsory tax.

Then of course there is the realization that not everybody in the world is meant to go to college, which is perfectly fine. Only pretentious d!ckheads would think less of someone for not going to college. There's nothing wrong with learning a trade and making a great living, all of which cannot be taught in traditional colleges. Afterall, an airplane mechanic can clear 100K a year which can't be said of the college grad professor who clears 40K if he's lucky.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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1/29/2012 9:34:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Nothing in life is free... as well it shouldn't be.

This new generation is constantly clamouring for free this and free that and take care of me now and take care of me when I'm old. Send me to college, give me health care, give me social security, give me money when I break my leg. Blah blah blah.

It's disgusting. Where's the sense of self reliance? The sense of pride in yourself and in your own work? Where's your sense of shame?

I would rather starve in the gutter than take welfare.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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1/30/2012 11:49:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/29/2012 5:55:11 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 1/29/2012 4:48:29 PM, tyler90az wrote:
Do you support free college education? Why, why not?:

Oh, and you never want to saturate the market with too many college grads... completely defeats the purpose of going to college to give you a competitive advantage.

That competitive advantage is supposed to be on a global scale.

I daresay your perspective is subversive. :O
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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1/30/2012 11:55:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I intend on getting a free college education in a country that provides it, most likely Denmark. So, yes, I support it.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

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YoungBrain
Posts: 4
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1/31/2012 1:45:38 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
It is already possible to get a free education if you work hard. It may not be Yale or Harvard but its an education. I worked hard throughout high school to earn above a 4.0 and got a full ride scholarship. Anybody who works really hard can get a free education too.
sadolite
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2/6/2012 6:03:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/29/2012 5:02:30 PM, 000ike wrote:
Education is the key to success. If you put a price on education, those born poor will never rise, and then we have a vicious generational cycle of poverty and lack of education for those unfortunate enough to be born in a home of low socioeconomic standing.

At this point in time, a highschool degree will get you nothing. We've reached a point where we need to do one of three things. Give financial aid to those seeking to attend college, make college less expensive, or make it free. It is our duty to society to help those disparaged (of no fault of their own) by this iniquitous, capitalistic economy of ours.

Lazy useless entitlement minded people are the ones who amount to nothing regardless of their education level. A college education guarantees nothing.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%