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What does a person WANT to hear....

GodSands
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8/31/2009 6:10:31 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
About life? Everything is about that person without God, huh. Add God to that persons life and you get rejection, it is that straight forward. Satan was right when he said at the beginning of Job, "In till you attack a mans very life will he will give in." (Something like that). Want does an atheist not want? Well they don't want a God who will judge them upon what they do, as in what their voice box produces, however it's not that simple, since we are not animals but humans with an understanding of what is right according to an overall standard, being God and what is evil according to a overall standard, that being God again.

An atheist is a person with feelings like any other person, they are born into this world like any other, and they enjoy things like any other person would. So what is stopping them wanting or at least believing in God?

You could say pride and that is probably it, but that isn't the reason, atheists are atheists because it is not the notion of God existing, they are really atheists because they do not want a direct connection with a Holy God. I really don't think that atheists could care if God exists, if there is evidence or if there is not, that isn't the point. The point is that, atheists care whether or not there is a God because if they was a God known to them, it would shatter their very lifes.
Ragnar_Rahl
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8/31/2009 6:30:32 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Not desiring a vicious tyrant has very little to do with not believing it.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
leet4A1
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8/31/2009 6:39:04 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/31/2009 6:30:32 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Not desiring a vicious tyrant has very little to do with not believing it.

Spot on. The comfort value, or lack thereof, of a particular statement has nothing to do with its truth value.

Also, people have no control over their beliefs at all. Sometimes I wish I could believe there was an all-powerful fellow on my side when things go bad, but there is far too much to overcome for me to believe that. As I always say, some people need no more than a blurry image of Jesus on their toast to become born-again... I would need nothing short of a personal visit and subsequent positive psychiatric evaluation.
"Let me tell you the truth. The truth is, 'what is'. And 'what should be' is a fantasy, a terrible terrible lie that someone gave to the people long ago. The 'what should be' never did exist, but people keep trying to live up to it. There is no 'what should be,' there is only what is." - Lenny Bruce

"Satan goes to church, did you know that?" - Godsands

"And Genisis 1 does match modern science... you just have to try really hard." - GR33K FR33K5
LB628
Posts: 176
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8/31/2009 9:36:53 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Of course, the same could be said about many fundamentalist Christians. They do not wish to hear that God could not exist, because they want to believe that there is some all-powerful person looking after them and guiding their lives. An alternate revelation would shatter them.
GodSands
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9/1/2009 6:33:44 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
: At 8/31/2009 9:36:53 PM, LB628 wrote:
Of course, the same could be said about many fundamentalist Christians. They do not wish to hear that God could not exist, because they want to believe that there is some all-powerful person looking after them and guiding their lives. An alternate revelation would shatter them.

Your actions are shown in what you really want to do, the same goes for love, I could say I love some one, but not show it, therefore I really do not love them. However through faith will get saved, but an atheist or someone who does not believe in God will show them selves through want they do, fornicate etc. Like wise goes for the Christian, if they love God, you could see it through want they do.

If God didn't have a connection with us humans. (Please tell me how you got to the conclution that God cannot exist?) Then I would just live and have fun like the world does, I would die and then I would be nothingness forever. But if God has a connect with you, it would shatter your atheistic life style for sure. And that would be a mirical.
GodSands
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9/1/2009 6:39:20 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
: At 9/1/2009 6:33:44 AM, GodSands wrote:
: At 8/31/2009 9:36:53 PM, LB628 wrote:
Of course, the same could be said about many fundamentalist Christians. They do not wish to hear that God could not exist, because they want to believe that there is some all-powerful person looking after them and guiding their lives. An alternate revelation would shatter them.

Your actions are shown in what you really want to do, the same goes for love, I could say I love some one, but not show it, therefore I really do not love them. However through faith will get saved, but an atheist or someone who does not believe in God will show them selves through want they do, fornicate etc. Like wise goes for the Christian, if they love God, you could see it through want they do.

If God didn't have a connection with us humans. (Please tell me how you got to the conclution that God cannot exist?) Then I would just live and have fun like the world does, I would die and then I would be nothingness forever. But if God has a connect with you, it would shatter your atheistic life style for sure. And that would be a mirical.


Basiclly disprove my personal experiance which I had with God, the Holy Spirit.
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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9/1/2009 11:08:31 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
"What does a person WANT to hear...." perfectly sums up you belief. When was your "Christian intervention" of sorts? Because I'm doubtful of them. Datc says he was at a musical festival drinking and smoking. Not exactly the best place for clarity of the mind.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
GodSands
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9/2/2009 3:23:46 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
: At 9/1/2009 11:08:31 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
"What does a person WANT to hear...." perfectly sums up you belief. When was your "Christian intervention" of sorts? Because I'm doubtful of them. Datc says he was at a musical festival drinking and smoking. Not exactly the best place for clarity of the mind.

What has this got to do with the forum?
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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9/2/2009 6:35:43 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/31/2009 6:10:31 PM, GodSands wrote:
I really don't think that atheists could care if God exists, if there is evidence or if there is not, that isn't the point. The point is that, atheists care whether or not there is a God because if they was a God known to them, it would shatter their very lifes.

I agree with you to some extent. There are "bad atheists" out there who hold onto atheism for superficial reasons, just as there are Christians out there who hold onto Christianity for superficial reasons.

I myself, GodSands, would like to make one thing clear: If God appeared before me and gave me absolute proof of his existence, I wouldn't be afraid at all. God forgives all, correct? I'd spend the rest of my life heralding the good news, being the most devout Christian of them all.

If you'll forgive me, GodSands, I would like to say something in response. I think that you have very negative feelings towards atheists, when as a Christian, you should be showing love and compassion, am I not correct? You would like to BELIEVE that an atheist CHOOSES not to accept God, and you would like to BELIEVE that this is the result of an atheist wanting to hold onto a lifestyle he knows.

I will tell you this very honestly, I don't think there is a single intelligent atheist on this site who is correctly categorized by what you said. I'm sure that every atheist here would become a better Christian than even you, GodSands, if God reveals himself personally, if there is true evidence.

Any atheist on this site would be 100x better than you as an evangelist, would convert 100x more people, would spread the word 100x faster and further, and would do more good deeds and spread more love than you, a devout Christian. And God, of course, would love them over you, because for the Prodigal son, the celebratory Ox will be slain, and the father will welcome him with open arms.

You should see every atheist as a lost lamb, helpless in the dangerous woods of sin. Is it really the lamb's fault that it was born in the forest without a shepherd? Why has the shepherd not come to retrieve the lamb? Why should the lamb seek out the shepherd if she has never heard his calls, or seen even the shadow of his cane?
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Ragnar_Rahl
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9/2/2009 6:44:54 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I'm sure that every atheist here would become a better Christian than even you, GodSands, if God reveals himself personally, if there is true evidence.

This is not true. The vicious tyrant revealing himself would alter my metaphysics, but that would not make me a Christian, as it would not alter the ethics of the situation. It would make me a misotheist. :)
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Kleptin
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9/2/2009 7:20:18 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
If the Christian God really does exist as scripture states, I wouldn't care about the ethics of the situation because then it becomes objectively clear that only *one* objective morality exists, and that is whatever God deems moral. Ethics becomes completely irrelevant. I'd do whatever would suit me best aka whatever would get me into heaven.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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9/3/2009 1:52:50 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
: I agree with you to some extent. There are "bad atheists" out there who hold onto atheism for superficial reasons, just as there are Christians out there who hold onto Christianity for superficial reasons.

: I myself, GodSands, would like to make one thing clear: If God appeared before me and gave me absolute proof of his existence, I wouldn't be afraid at all. God forgives all, correct? I'd spend the rest of my life heralding the good news, being the most devout Christian of them all.

God comes to us in the Holy Spirit, I will tell you this now, nothing will convince you of that the Christian God is the right God, unless you have a change of heart. Fact! And I mean that.

: If you'll forgive me, GodSands, I would like to say something in response. I think that you have very negative feelings towards atheists, when as a Christian, you should be showing love and compassion, am I not correct? You would like to BELIEVE that an atheist CHOOSES not to accept God, and you would like to BELIEVE that this is the result of an atheist wanting to hold onto a lifestyle he knows.

I treat atheists like any other none atheist person, the way I act towards person does not even shutter on this site. There really is no way of telling what someone acts like with the words they use, but you can tell what they are like. Yeah your forgiven.

: I will tell you this very honestly, I don't think there is a single intelligent atheist on this site who is correctly categorized by what you said. I'm sure that every atheist here would become a better Christian than even you, GodSands, if God reveals himself personally, if there is true evidence.

Become a Christian, and at times better than me, but God does not save those who are better or evangelise the most, or pray the most, but God saves those who have the faith in Jesus, Yeshua.

: Any atheist on this site would be 100x better than you as an evangelist, would convert 100x more people, would spread the word 100x faster and further, and would do more good deeds and spread more love than you, a devout Christian. And God, of course, would love them over you, because for the Prodigal son, the celebratory Ox will be slain, and the father will welcome him with open arms.

I try not to evangelise to be popular, or I will not lead one to Christ to be their friend. It is not about being the best at these things, but having faith in these things.

: You should see every atheist as a lost lamb, helpless in the dangerous woods of sin. Is it really the lamb's fault that it was born in the forest without a shepherd? Why has the shepherd not come to retrieve the lamb? Why should the lamb seek out the shepherd if she has never heard his calls, or seen even the shadow of his cane?

I do see people as lost lambs and I feel for them, but wouldn't the lost lamb cry out for help? Do that and you will be heard. If you really wanted to know God, run on top of a hill and cry out to the Lord, I promise you that the Spirit will come, as you would being showing faith and humbleness. It is quite the opposite infact, what I am doing now, hasn't God sent me help the lost, that is what God has called me to do. The Holy Spirit is in me, guilding me, helping me and using me to help the lost. Jesus said, "If you have seen me, you have seen my Father." Same goes for every Christian, which will have the Holy Spirit in them. (True Christian).
Kleptin
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9/3/2009 6:17:46 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/3/2009 1:52:50 PM, GodSands wrote:
God comes to us in the Holy Spirit, I will tell you this now, nothing will convince you of that the Christian God is the right God, unless you have a change of heart. Fact! And I mean that.

God came to many people in forms other than the Holy Spirit. Christ came to Saul on the road to Damascus. God made me a being that believes things through senses. My creator should be wise enough to come to me through my senses.

I treat atheists like any other none atheist person, the way I act towards person does not even shutter on this site. There really is no way of telling what someone acts like with the words they use, but you can tell what they are like. Yeah your forgiven.

There is no way of telling what someone acts like with the words they use. You only know atheists here by their words. Thus, you have no way of telling what atheists act like, or what they think, what they believe, and why they believe it. It is not your place to judge why an atheist is apart from God. Only God can judge. As a servant of Christ, your only concern should be to spread the word, not to criticize people for not accepting Christ. Do you think that a Christ-like evangelist would criticize people?

Become a Christian, and at times better than me, but God does not save those who are better or evangelise the most, or pray the most, but God saves those who have the faith in Jesus, Yeshua.

I try not to evangelise to be popular, or I will not lead one to Christ to be their friend. It is not about being the best at these things, but having faith in these things.

Okay, then on top of that, I add that their faith will be 100x more unshakable and true than yours. What do you have to say now? I repeat, if God reveals himself to me, my faith will be so strong that someone can break 500 of you before they break me.

I do see people as lost lambs and I feel for them, but wouldn't the lost lamb cry out for help? Do that and you will be heard. If you really wanted to know God, run on top of a hill and cry out to the Lord, I promise you that the Spirit will come, as you would being showing faith and humbleness. It is quite the opposite infact, what I am doing now, hasn't God sent me help the lost, that is what God has called me to do. The Holy Spirit is in me, guilding me, helping me and using me to help the lost. Jesus said, "If you have seen me, you have seen my Father." Same goes for every Christian, which will have the Holy Spirit in them. (True Christian).

If you were born without siblings, would you call out for your siblings? I was born without God, so why should I call out to him? Why would a lamb, who has never known a shepherd, call out for a shepherd?

Running to the top of a hill to call for someone you do not know will only get you eaten by wolves.

It is the shepherd's duty to care for the lamb, not the lamb's duty to seek out its caretaker. If the lamb were smart enough to do so, why would it need a shepherd in the first place?
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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9/3/2009 6:32:28 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/2/2009 7:20:18 PM, Kleptin wrote:
If the Christian God really does exist as scripture states, I wouldn't care about the ethics of the situation because then it becomes objectively clear that only *one* objective morality exists
Might=/= right

and that is whatever God deems moral. Ethics becomes completely irrelevant. I'd do whatever would suit me best aka whatever would get me into heaven.
Why would you want to sit around in heaven waiting hand and foot on some arsehole all day? :)
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Kleptin
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9/4/2009 12:16:45 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/3/2009 6:32:28 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 9/2/2009 7:20:18 PM, Kleptin wrote:
If the Christian God really does exist as scripture states, I wouldn't care about the ethics of the situation because then it becomes objectively clear that only *one* objective morality exists
Might=/= right

It's not an issue of Might = Right. It's an issue of Right = Right. God is the standard by which everything is, if he exists. At that point, all mankind would then be objectively flawed. What we judge to be right, our dissent, none of it would matter.

Why would you want to sit around in heaven waiting hand and foot on some arsehole all day? :)

Because whatever it is that turns us off to the idea is objectively wrong :P
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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9/4/2009 12:23:52 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/31/2009 6:10:31 PM, GodSands wrote:
About life? Everything is about that person without God, huh. Add God to that persons life and you get rejection, it is that straight forward. Satan was right when he said at the beginning of Job, "In till you attack a mans very life will he will give in." (Something like that). Want does an atheist not want? Well they don't want a God who will judge them upon what they do, as in what their voice box produces, however it's not that simple, since we are not animals but humans with an understanding of what is right according to an overall standard, being God and what is evil according to a overall standard, that being God again.

An atheist is a person with feelings like any other person, they are born into this world like any other, and they enjoy things like any other person would. So what is stopping them wanting or at least believing in God?

You could say pride and that is probably it, but that isn't the reason, atheists are atheists because it is not the notion of God existing, they are really atheists because they do not want a direct connection with a Holy God. I really don't think that atheists could care if God exists, if there is evidence or if there is not, that isn't the point. The point is that, atheists care whether or not there is a God because if they was a God known to them, it would shatter their very lifes.

Actually no.
I am an atheist, I personally would like to believe in God. I can find no evidence for God, and every religion appears massively flawed in some way. I would love to find God, no one who apparently has done so can tell me how to do this.

I am not prepared to accept the existence of God because someone assumes that he exists.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Ragnar_Rahl
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9/4/2009 1:19:44 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/4/2009 12:16:45 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 9/3/2009 6:32:28 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 9/2/2009 7:20:18 PM, Kleptin wrote:
If the Christian God really does exist as scripture states, I wouldn't care about the ethics of the situation because then it becomes objectively clear that only *one* objective morality exists
Might=/= right

It's not an issue of Might = Right. It's an issue of Right = Right. God is the standard by which everything is, if he exists.
The standard by which everything is what?
If you mean created, that makes as much sense as saying sex is the standard by which everyone exists and so rape is justified.


Why would you want to sit around in heaven waiting hand and foot on some arsehole all day? :)

Because whatever it is that turns us off to the idea is objectively wrong :P
What objective is it wrong for? Any notion of right or wrong demands the question of a purpose.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Kleptin
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9/4/2009 9:03:28 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/4/2009 1:19:44 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 9/4/2009 12:16:45 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 9/3/2009 6:32:28 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 9/2/2009 7:20:18 PM, Kleptin wrote:
If the Christian God really does exist as scripture states, I wouldn't care about the ethics of the situation because then it becomes objectively clear that only *one* objective morality exists
Might=/= right

It's not an issue of Might = Right. It's an issue of Right = Right. God is the standard by which everything is, if he exists.

The standard by which everything is what?

Compared. Sorry, left out a word XD

If you mean created, that makes as much sense as saying sex is the standard by which everyone exists and so rape is justified.

Not created. God is the supreme lawmaker, and if he exists, his law is objective morality, and any deviation (whether we have justification for it or not) is fallacious. Logic is the process by which we understand the universe, but if the Judeo-Christian God exists in a state of perfection, this tool becomes flawed by comparison.

What objective is it wrong for? Any notion of right or wrong demands the question of a purpose.

Not necessarily. What is right would be what God says is right, and what is wrong is everything else. The standard would be God's will. Arbitrary, but unquestionable. Afterall, we are talking about a perfect, omnipotent, omniscient, etc. being.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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9/5/2009 2:07:15 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/4/2009 9:03:28 PM, Kleptin wrote:
The standard by which everything is what?

Compared. Sorry, left out a word XD
For what purpose? You can't say it's "just done," because I don't, hypothetically I am not convinced that I should compare things by that standard in this god universe.


If you mean created, that makes as much sense as saying sex is the standard by which everyone exists and so rape is justified.

Not created. God is the supreme lawmaker
Lawmaking means you have migt.

and if he exists, his law is objective morality
A king is a supreme lawmaker, if he has enough power. Is his law objective morality?


What objective is it wrong for? Any notion of right or wrong demands the question of a purpose.

Not necessarily.
Yes necessarily. The terms "right" and "wrong" have no meaning and no function if you don't seek to achieve something by them. How do you propose to cause causeless action?

What is right would be what God says is right, and what is wrong is everything else. The standard would be God's will. Arbitrary, but unquestionable. Afterall, we are talking about a perfect, omnipotent, omniscient, etc. being.
Metaphysical perfection, whatever the hell that means (quite simply as far as I can tell it doesn't and can't mean anything real), even if it were real, has absolutely nothing to do with morality. Omnipotence is back to might is right, and since knowledge is power omniscience drags you back there too.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.