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Ebonics and public education Opinions welcome

pundlund
Posts: 1
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11/24/2012 2:22:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Did not want to start a debate since I cannot really take a side with this issue and would like to hear other peoples opinion.
Ebonics in our everyday lives usually is viewed down upon and is often associated with ignorance or lack of knowledge. Ebonics is often referred to as simply just slang or colloquialism since the usage of certain phrases such as "ain't" are not truly words in the English language. But if Ebonics itself is a mix of African culture and American English it is not a language but a dialect/language variation due to its notable potential in having a structure, phrases, and based off English enough to have set rules that are similar with any language variation today.
Backstory aside, if ebonics has potential of being noticed as a dialect rather than slang, can this be applicable for schools in more urban areas to connect more with students, connect with a larger demographic amongst students, and even simplifying the learning experience for children.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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11/24/2012 2:49:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Well you can say its a dialect, but If you go in the business world using ebonics, then you pretty much wont go that far.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
Df0512
Posts: 966
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12/13/2012 12:34:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/24/2012 2:22:00 PM, pundlund wrote:
Did not want to start a debate since I cannot really take a side with this issue and would like to hear other peoples opinion.
Ebonics in our everyday lives usually is viewed down upon and is often associated with ignorance or lack of knowledge. Ebonics is often referred to as simply just slang or colloquialism since the usage of certain phrases such as "ain't" are not truly words in the English language. But if Ebonics itself is a mix of African culture and American English it is not a language but a dialect/language variation due to its notable potential in having a structure, phrases, and based off English enough to have set rules that are similar with any language variation today.
Backstory aside, if ebonics has potential of being noticed as a dialect rather than slang, can this be applicable for schools in more urban areas to connect more with students, connect with a larger demographic amongst students, and even simplifying the learning experience for children.

Youy make a valid point but it just isn't viewed that way. And the last thing the english langauge needs is more confusing dialects.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,337
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12/13/2012 12:45:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/13/2012 12:34:17 PM, Df0512 wrote:
At 11/24/2012 2:22:00 PM, pundlund wrote:
Did not want to start a debate since I cannot really take a side with this issue and would like to hear other peoples opinion.
Ebonics in our everyday lives usually is viewed down upon and is often associated with ignorance or lack of knowledge. Ebonics is often referred to as simply just slang or colloquialism since the usage of certain phrases such as "ain't" are not truly words in the English language. But if Ebonics itself is a mix of African culture and American English it is not a language but a dialect/language variation due to its notable potential in having a structure, phrases, and based off English enough to have set rules that are similar with any language variation today.
Backstory aside, if ebonics has potential of being noticed as a dialect rather than slang, can this be applicable for schools in more urban areas to connect more with students, connect with a larger demographic amongst students, and even simplifying the learning experience for children.

Youy make a valid point but it just isn't viewed that way. And the last thing the english langauge needs is more confusing dialects.

Even rednecks have to tone it down in many professional areas.
slo1
Posts: 4,364
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12/13/2012 5:44:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/24/2012 2:22:00 PM, pundlund wrote:
Did not want to start a debate since I cannot really take a side with this issue and would like to hear other peoples opinion.
Ebonics in our everyday lives usually is viewed down upon and is often associated with ignorance or lack of knowledge. Ebonics is often referred to as simply just slang or colloquialism since the usage of certain phrases such as "ain't" are not truly words in the English language. But if Ebonics itself is a mix of African culture and American English it is not a language but a dialect/language variation due to its notable potential in having a structure, phrases, and based off English enough to have set rules that are similar with any language variation today.
Backstory aside, if ebonics has potential of being noticed as a dialect rather than slang, can this be applicable for schools in more urban areas to connect more with students, connect with a larger demographic amongst students, and even simplifying the learning experience for children.

I think it is a sad state of affairs. It truly is a dialect and it is the norm for mainstream to be detracted by it and even discriminate against it. The only thing is as some have mentioned it is not only Ebonics. There are many different speech mannerisms that are also frowned upon because they are not part of the social norm.

I have to say it discourages me how many people I have met, including my wife, who think that saying "asked" as "axed" is a sign of stupidity. We get so focused on meaningless things buy putting meaning where there really is none other than where one grew up.

I wonder how countries with even wider dialect differences handle it such as India or Philippines.
DudeWithoutTheE
Posts: 53
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12/17/2012 1:41:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/13/2012 5:44:29 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 11/24/2012 2:22:00 PM, pundlund wrote:
Did not want to start a debate since I cannot really take a side with this issue and would like to hear other peoples opinion.
Ebonics in our everyday lives usually is viewed down upon and is often associated with ignorance or lack of knowledge. Ebonics is often referred to as simply just slang or colloquialism since the usage of certain phrases such as "ain't" are not truly words in the English language. But if Ebonics itself is a mix of African culture and American English it is not a language but a dialect/language variation due to its notable potential in having a structure, phrases, and based off English enough to have set rules that are similar with any language variation today.
Backstory aside, if ebonics has potential of being noticed as a dialect rather than slang, can this be applicable for schools in more urban areas to connect more with students, connect with a larger demographic amongst students, and even simplifying the learning experience for children.

I think it is a sad state of affairs. It truly is a dialect and it is the norm for mainstream to be detracted by it and even discriminate against it. The only thing is as some have mentioned it is not only Ebonics. There are many different speech mannerisms that are also frowned upon because they are not part of the social norm.

I have to say it discourages me how many people I have met, including my wife, who think that saying "asked" as "axed" is a sign of stupidity. We get so focused on meaningless things buy putting meaning where there really is none other than where one grew up.

I wonder how countries with even wider dialect differences handle it such as India or Philippines.

India's linguistic diversity is more in terms of distinct languages than dialects. I see what you mean about social prejudice, there's a problem - unless you're going to suggest Black separatism, African American children have to survive in the actual world. The issue therefore is that Ebonics is not really separate enough from English to justify the time to teach it as a separate subject, and to teach it instead of 'Standard' English in inner-city schools is likely to further demarcate black children as 'other' and harm their prospects to do things like going to college which are likely to make significant improvements in their life prospects (since colleges will continue to use English as the language of instruction). See the employability of Hispanics who only speak Spanish compared to those who are bilingual - being able to speak 'standard' American English is very important to break through into white-collar occupations, and not having a single unifying language risks ghettoization (or rather, worse ghettoization). Many countries where there is a variety of dialect (the United Kingdom has noticeably more than the US, for example) make a point of teaching the same standardized dialect throughout the country to ensure equality of opportunity.

A better idea would probably be if a State with a large black population insisted on giving Ebonics or minority culture artforms time within the standard English/Arts time, to make majority pupils more aware that there can be norms other than their own. Even this runs the risk of being patronizing though, because it gives the impression that these particular pieces of minority culture are valuable because the dominant culture has graciously seen fit to recognize them.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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12/25/2012 4:24:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Ebonics is mostly a means to let people get away with talking however they want and call it cultural, or a dialect, and it isn't. It continues to change just as every fad does. Skreet, skraight, skrool, aks, I be, etc., are not words or valid parts of any language. Much of the black way of speaking came from the slave days when they were trying to find a way to communicate that the whites couldn't understand. It was understandable in those times, but it's no longer necessary for blacks to separate themselves and have their own "language", in the American society.

Ebonics is very difficult for people who aren't use to it to understand. How one speaks at home is one thing if you know when to turn it on and off, but many kids can't tell when it's time to stop being black, and become part of a larger group, speaking in a way in which people of all colors can understand you. Parents should make sure that all kids can speak well, and be understood when they talk. That is a big first step to gaining respect. If I have trouble understanding what someone is saying then it is not unreasonable to refuse to hire that person, or promote them to higher positions, over people who speak clearly and are easily understood. Ebonics should be discouraged in public, and should definately not be accepted in schools, since it totally defeats the purpose of teaching English.
LeafRod
Posts: 1,548
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12/25/2012 7:38:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/25/2012 4:24:59 PM, medic0506 wrote:
but many kids can't tell when it's time to stop being black, and become part of a larger group, speaking in a way in which people of all colors can understand you

Are you not aware of how ignorant this sounds? Of the incredible racist undertones in statements like this?

I feel like I have to repeat myself in every thread, but this is really what we get when sheltered white kids talk about their extensive knowledge regarding "them" aka "blacks" aka "negroes"
Df0512
Posts: 966
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12/26/2012 9:15:19 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
but many kids can't tell when it's time to stop being black, and become part of a larger group

Well I'm never gone stop being black. And neither will any other black people. Not really sure how else anyone can respond to such a statement.
LeafRod
Posts: 1,548
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12/26/2012 11:21:44 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
"Ebonics is just a way for uppity negroes to call themselves cultural so why don't you just stop being black and get into the business world and talk like a normal person"
Df0512
Posts: 966
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12/26/2012 11:42:43 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/26/2012 11:21:44 AM, LeafRod wrote:
"Ebonics is just a way for uppity negroes to call themselves cultural so why don't you just stop being black and get into the business world and talk like a normal person"

That doesn't even make sense.
LeafRod
Posts: 1,548
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12/26/2012 2:31:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I'm making a sarcastic aggregation of what I perceive to be the incredibly idiotic underlying thought processes of some of the statements you and I are both finding absurd
Df0512
Posts: 966
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12/26/2012 3:00:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/26/2012 2:31:48 PM, LeafRod wrote:
I'm making a sarcastic aggregation of what I perceive to be the incredibly idiotic underlying thought processes of some of the statements you and I are both finding absurd

No it makes total sense because they are incredibly absurd
Heineken
Posts: 1,230
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12/26/2012 8:15:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/26/2012 3:00:56 PM, Df0512 wrote:
At 12/26/2012 2:31:48 PM, LeafRod wrote:
I'm making a sarcastic aggregation of what I perceive to be the incredibly idiotic underlying thought processes of some of the statements you and I are both finding absurd

No it makes total sense because they are incredibly absurd

Plain and simple, articulation is intrinsic to professionalism. You want to market yourself as an approachable, easy to understand person of interest. You're not any less black and you're not selling out. You're adapting to an industry. You think all the white kids grow up talking like surfers?
"Uhm...Your honor-dude. My, like, client has decided to, uhm...you know..ha-haaa....plead guilty, bro."

Noooope.

Webster's English would be just fine.
(Don't confuse dialect with accent. Nobody is asking anyone to lose the drawl...although I've heard they make you ditch that too in certain industies, such as radio and TV broadcasting).
Vidi, vici, veni.
(I saw, I conquered, I came.)
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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12/27/2012 7:51:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/26/2012 2:31:48 PM, LeafRod wrote:
I'm making a sarcastic aggregation of what I perceive to be the incredibly idiotic underlying thought processes of some of the statements you and I are both finding absurd

The comment wasn't intended to be racist or offensive, but it's true. I also never said that all black people talk that way, just that those who do are extremely difficult for people who don't talk that way to understand. If they insist on talking that way then they'll never be taken seriously in the work world. It isn't just blacks, it's also whites who have a strong southern accent, hispanics, etc.
LeafRod
Posts: 1,548
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12/27/2012 9:54:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
If you keep talking that way, you will never be taken seriously by people beyond Debate.org. Seriously. You might have a point but it is totally lost by your utter incapability of linguistic tact, which is probably indicative of total lack of understanding, experience, or empathy. To refer to "ebonics" (which is kind of a problematic and ridiculous term in and of itself) as a fad and something that is an attempt to have "culture" is totally offensive and elitist. I think you have this view that society is perfectly accommodating to all people, which is misguided, even by virtue of the fact that you're using language like "stop being black" and "become part of a larger group" and essentially purveying this view of black people as some foreign group that speak some other language who need to assimilate to society, which by the way is pretty much the fundamental superiority complex of every racially or culturally based conflict in history.

I'm sorry if that sounded personally offensive because it wasn't really supposed to be; I just wanted to get my point across strongly.
Df0512
Posts: 966
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12/27/2012 10:33:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/27/2012 7:51:24 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 12/26/2012 2:31:48 PM, LeafRod wrote:
I'm making a sarcastic aggregation of what I perceive to be the incredibly idiotic underlying thought processes of some of the statements you and I are both finding absurd

The comment wasn't intended to be racist or offensive, but it's true. I also never said that all black people talk that way, just that those who do are extremely difficult for people who don't talk that way to understand. If they insist on talking that way then they'll never be taken seriously in the work world. It isn't just blacks, it's also whites who have a strong southern accent, hispanics, etc.

Well black people do not need to stop being black. That statement is false and both racist and offensive. If you know it isnt just black people why would you call us out like that? But i am not saying I totally disagree. Some black and white people should try to correct there grammar at least for work. I dont think there is anything wrong with accents tho. Accents and ebonics are 2 different things. To thick of an accent is bad but not all.
Mangani
Posts: 55
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1/21/2013 1:34:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Whether or not Ebonics is a dialect depends on the linguist. American linguists DO list "ebonics" as a dialect- These idiots call it African-American Vernacular English (linguistically, if a dialect is defined as "vernacular" it is not a dialect).

AAVE/Ebonics should not be considered a source of pride. Were this "dialect" standard across every region, that would be different. Instead, AAVE/Ebonics varies from city to city, region to region. It, therefore, is NOT a comprehensive organized dialect like, say, Hawaiian Pidgin, Gullah, etc., and is best probably identified as regional urban jargon.
slo1
Posts: 4,364
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1/21/2013 8:43:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I find it very disturbing that people would get on the case of a dialect common from a group a people who where intentionally segregated for hundreds of years, yet have nothing to say about how native Bostonians should learn how to speak english right to get in the "norm".

Where do all you freaks come from, demanding such trivial conformity? I would rather do business with someone who talks like he has 10 marshmallows in his mouth if he has integrity versus a weasel with perfect Queen's english.

Wtf?
Franz_Reynard
Posts: 1,227
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1/24/2013 6:25:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
"Ebonics" is an offensive categorization. Southerns speak one way. Northeasterners, another. Californians, another, which is similar, but not the same, as the rest of the Western United States.

Naturally, those humans considered "Black" have a way of speaking that coincides with their culture, so I don't think it requires a special name, except for the purpose of criticism.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,927
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1/26/2013 10:52:40 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/25/2012 7:38:07 PM, LeafRod wrote:
At 12/25/2012 4:24:59 PM, medic0506 wrote:
but many kids can't tell when it's time to stop being black, and become part of a larger group, speaking in a way in which people of all colors can understand you

Are you not aware of how ignorant this sounds? Of the incredible racist undertones in statements like this?

I feel like I have to repeat myself in every thread, but this is really what we get when sheltered white kids talk about their extensive knowledge regarding "them" aka "blacks" aka "negroes"

I'm a month late but "this".
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Polaris
Posts: 1,120
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2/2/2013 11:54:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/24/2012 2:22:00 PM, pundlund wrote:
Did not want to start a debate since I cannot really take a side with this issue and would like to hear other peoples opinion.
Ebonics in our everyday lives usually is viewed down upon and is often associated with ignorance or lack of knowledge. Ebonics is often referred to as simply just slang or colloquialism since the usage of certain phrases such as "ain't" are not truly words in the English language. But if Ebonics itself is a mix of African culture and American English it is not a language but a dialect/language variation due to its notable potential in having a structure, phrases, and based off English enough to have set rules that are similar with any language variation today.
Backstory aside, if ebonics has potential of being noticed as a dialect rather than slang, can this be applicable for schools in more urban areas to connect more with students, connect with a larger demographic amongst students, and even simplifying the learning experience for children.

It's an ethnolect.

http://en.wikipedia.org...