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Selective grouping in schools

tmar19652
Posts: 727
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1/1/2013 7:26:50 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Should we group children in elementary schools according to ability? For example, if you had 3 third grade classes, you could have one smart class, one average class, and one remedial class. This way the smart kids can move ahead and learn more, and the remedial kids can be helped with whatever they are struggling at.

Details would have to be worked out, like the aptitude tests at the end of the year, but I thing this system would work better than our current system.

Also this is already used in high schools and junior highs, with remedial, regents, honors, and advanced placement courses.
"Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first." -Ronald Reagan

"The notion of political correctness declares certain topics, certain ex<x>pressions even certain gestures off-limits. What began as a crusade for civility has soured into a cause of conflict and even censorship." -George H.W. Bush
OllerupMand
Posts: 375
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1/1/2013 12:56:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Now I don't know your current system, but I have worked a bit with selective grouping in schools and it is almost always a bad idea.

On average you don't get anything out of it. Most tests and research I have read shows that all three groups &#322;earn less from it. A few of them have shown a marginal better progress for the kids in the smart group, but the kids in the two other groups are always worse off.

Another problem is of course that it is very hard to sepperate kids based on how smart they are. In the teaching system where I come from we don't even belive that some kids are smarter than others.
tmar19652
Posts: 727
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1/1/2013 1:20:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
In a comprehensive review of research on different types of ability grouping in the elementary school, Robert E. Slavin (1986) found that some forms of grouping can result in increased student achievement. Slavin's review focused on five grouping plans.

Grouping students as a class by ability for all subjects doesn't improve achievement

Students grouped heterogeneously for most of the school day, but regrouped according to ability for one or two subjects, can improve achievement in those areas for which they are grouped.

Grouping heterogeneously except for reading instruction (commonly referred to as "The Joplin Plan") improves reading achievement.

Nongraded instruction---instruction that groups students according to ability rather than age and that allows students to progress at their own rates---can result in improved achievement.

In-class grouping---a common approach in which teachers break out two or three ability-based groups within a class for instruction---can benefit student achievement. (Slavin's research supports this practice for math instruction. Findings related to reading instruction aren't as conclusive; in-class grouping is so widespread a practice for teaching reading that it's difficult to find "control groups" for such a comparative study.)

Also, I ran cross country in high school with a kid who got a 1600 on the sat. He was in fact smarter and harder working than the other kids. So don't say that some people are not smarter than others.
"Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first." -Ronald Reagan

"The notion of political correctness declares certain topics, certain ex<x>pressions even certain gestures off-limits. What began as a crusade for civility has soured into a cause of conflict and even censorship." -George H.W. Bush
OllerupMand
Posts: 375
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1/1/2013 1:42:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I just remembered why I so rarely post in here, but just read.

Your refering to an 26 years old research, from before the idea of cooperative learning really started rolling. It is like trying to disprove Einstein, by using Newton.

I have no idea what a sat is and I still don't belive that some kids are smarter than others.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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1/1/2013 1:44:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/1/2013 1:42:27 PM, OllerupMand wrote:
I have no idea what a sat is and I still don't belive that some kids are smarter than others.
Not a good way to deny a fact.
OllerupMand
Posts: 375
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1/1/2013 2:00:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/1/2013 1:42:27 PM, OllerupMand wrote:
I just remembered why I so rarely post in here, but just read.
That is because I am sure that I come acrose as an arrogant idiot and that I really should put more work into my posts than I do.
Your refering to an 26 years old research, from before the idea of cooperative learning really started rolling. It is like trying to disprove Einstein, by using Newton.

I have no idea what a sat is and I still don't belive that some kids are smarter than others.
There are a number of problems if you want to rank kids on how smart they are. The most central problem is that these days we are quit sure that there is a number of different kinds of intelligents and that they work together in strange and awesome ways. A kid is not just good or bad at math. Kids go to math in total different ways and math changes depending on what level it is taught. Complicated stuff..... Mehhh to much explanation. . .
tmar19652
Posts: 727
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1/1/2013 2:06:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/1/2013 2:00:57 PM, OllerupMand wrote:
At 1/1/2013 1:42:27 PM, OllerupMand wrote:
I just remembered why I so rarely post in here, but just read.
That is because I am sure that I come acrose as an arrogant idiot and that I really should put more work into my posts than I do.
Your refering to an 26 years old research, from before the idea of cooperative learning really started rolling. It is like trying to disprove Einstein, by using Newton.

I have no idea what a sat is and I still don't belive that some kids are smarter than others.
There are a number of problems if you want to rank kids on how smart they are. The most central problem is that these days we are quit sure that there is a number of different kinds of intelligents and that they work together in strange and awesome ways. A kid is not just good or bad at math. Kids go to math in total different ways and math changes depending on what level it is taught. Complicated stuff..... Mehhh to much explanation. . .

A kid may not be bad or good at math, but I would rank being good at multi variable calculus above being good at algebra.

Also there are different kinds of intelligence, but intelligence at math is more important than intelligence at art.
"Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first." -Ronald Reagan

"The notion of political correctness declares certain topics, certain ex<x>pressions even certain gestures off-limits. What began as a crusade for civility has soured into a cause of conflict and even censorship." -George H.W. Bush
OllerupMand
Posts: 375
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1/1/2013 2:21:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/1/2013 2:06:55 PM, tmar19652 wrote:
At 1/1/2013 2:00:57 PM, OllerupMand wrote:
At 1/1/2013 1:42:27 PM, OllerupMand wrote:
I just remembered why I so rarely post in here, but just read.
That is because I am sure that I come acrose as an arrogant idiot and that I really should put more work into my posts than I do.
Your refering to an 26 years old research, from before the idea of cooperative learning really started rolling. It is like trying to disprove Einstein, by using Newton.

I have no idea what a sat is and I still don't belive that some kids are smarter than others.
There are a number of problems if you want to rank kids on how smart they are. The most central problem is that these days we are quit sure that there is a number of different kinds of intelligents and that they work together in strange and awesome ways. A kid is not just good or bad at math. Kids go to math in total different ways and math changes depending on what level it is taught. Complicated stuff..... Mehhh to much explanation. . .

A kid may not be bad or good at math, but I would rank being good at multi variable calculus above being good at algebra.
Why? And what would you use that ranking for? If we have a student good at algebra, but bad at calculus and another student bad at calculus, but good at algebra, then they both have something to learn/realise.
Also there are different kinds of intelligence, but intelligence at math is more important than intelligence at art.

But just inside math you again have different kind of intelligence or I would rather call it abilities and they also interact in other subjects. The abilities that make some people good at arts can also make them very good at complicated math. Remember how prople say that musicians are also often good at math.
OllerupMand
Posts: 375
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1/1/2013 2:24:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
And then there is all that pre and after puberty stuff to complicate it even more. I hate puberty. Without puberty education would be much easier.
tmar19652
Posts: 727
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1/1/2013 2:30:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/1/2013 2:24:34 PM, OllerupMand wrote:
And then there is all that pre and after puberty stuff to complicate it even more. I hate puberty. Without puberty education would be much easier.

The nature kids would not be as affected as the unwashed masses. They could move ahead and leave others behind.
"Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first." -Ronald Reagan

"The notion of political correctness declares certain topics, certain ex<x>pressions even certain gestures off-limits. What began as a crusade for civility has soured into a cause of conflict and even censorship." -George H.W. Bush
Logic_on_rails
Posts: 2,445
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1/1/2013 4:05:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
This is an interesting topic. I'll briefly detail some non-US approaches.

Intra-school grouping is rare; by 'intra-school' I mean policies that the school actually runs itself. In NSW (my home state in Australia) we have a selective schools system where students, if they choose to apply, take a range of tests during year 6, and if successful can attend the schools they put down; different schools have different cut off rates based on demand for the limited places available. About 1/4 applicants are accepted. So, you have many schools with very good student cohorts. Alternatively, you have partially selective schools like mine, which have a selective stream of 2 classes and a comprehensive stream of about 4 classes. My school has the most diverse mix of people on the north shore for various other reasons.

Now, while many smart students go to private schools, receive scholarships to these or simply do badly on the selective schools test, there are noticeable effects. Furthermore, there is a trend towards creating more selective schools currently. My view is that smarter students benefit, and can retain an understanding of peer ability through having a mainstream component at their school, although I can't quantify the counter - harms to those in the mainstream.

As for students teaching other students, this is actually used very successfully in Japan. The problem is that applying it to countries like the US and Australia requires a bit of a cultural shift in learning, which is problematic.
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
tmar19652
Posts: 727
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1/1/2013 6:57:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/1/2013 4:05:58 PM, Logic_on_rails wrote:
This is an interesting topic. I'll briefly detail some non-US approaches.

Intra-school grouping is rare; by 'intra-school' I mean policies that the school actually runs itself. In NSW (my home state in Australia) we have a selective schools system where students, if they choose to apply, take a range of tests during year 6, and if successful can attend the schools they put down; different schools have different cut off rates based on demand for the limited places available. About 1/4 applicants are accepted. So, you have many schools with very good student cohorts. Alternatively, you have partially selective schools like mine, which have a selective stream of 2 classes and a comprehensive stream of about 4 classes. My school has the most diverse mix of people on the north shore for various other reasons.

Now, while many smart students go to private schools, receive scholarships to these or simply do badly on the selective schools test, there are noticeable effects. Furthermore, there is a trend towards creating more selective schools currently. My view is that smarter students benefit, and can retain an understanding of peer ability through having a mainstream component at their school, although I can't quantify the counter - harms to those in the mainstream.

As for students teaching other students, this is actually used very successfully in Japan. The problem is that applying it to countries like the US and Australia requires a bit of a cultural shift in learning, which is problematic.

We are falling behind academically, so a paradigm shift in culture is needed to catch up.
"Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first." -Ronald Reagan

"The notion of political correctness declares certain topics, certain ex<x>pressions even certain gestures off-limits. What began as a crusade for civility has soured into a cause of conflict and even censorship." -George H.W. Bush
Logic_on_rails
Posts: 2,445
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1/1/2013 11:24:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/1/2013 6:57:53 PM, tmar19652 wrote:

We are falling behind academically, so a paradigm shift in culture is needed to catch up.

I would agree with this statement - a paradigm shift in culture could be extraordinarily beneficial. However, the nature of the shift in question needs to be figured out. What do you want a shift towards? For instance, as the US moves towards a more rigorous, centralised testing system similar to China the Chinese are moving the exact opposite way! Yong Zhao very clearly shows this. One must determine what paradigm shift is desired

In your opinion what paradigm shift is needed? A bit of detail would be nice.

I may be unable to reply for a few days, but I'd enjoy hearing your response, and will reply as soon as I can.
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
tmar19652
Posts: 727
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1/2/2013 7:22:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I think we need to move to a 200+ school day year, and the importance of school needs to be re-emphasized to children.
"Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first." -Ronald Reagan

"The notion of political correctness declares certain topics, certain ex<x>pressions even certain gestures off-limits. What began as a crusade for civility has soured into a cause of conflict and even censorship." -George H.W. Bush
saraparker617
Posts: 10
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11/1/2013 3:50:48 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I really used to feel left out when people used to make groups in the class or college, just like a loner. This is I always hated going back to college so what I did was I started taking online classes and lessons which helped me complete my education and dint even feel like a loner anymore. http://www.rochvilleuniversity.org...