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Public School Teacher Tenure? Chime in!

OhioGary
Posts: 68
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1/30/2013 2:40:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Hi Everyone,

I'd like to get everyone's opinions on teacher tenure.

For the most part, public schools grant tenure to teachers after about 3 years on the job. Teachers with tenure receive significant job protections.

Proponents of eliminating tenure cite that teachers should be paid based on performance, and that job guarantees attract and retain ineffective teachers who cannot be removed from the classroom.

Proponents of maintaining tenure cite that teachers are not paid well and have significant job demands that require brining work home and being accessible for student and parent functions. The job protections keep effective teachers from leaving for better paying jobs.

Where are you on public school teacher tenure? Do you support tenure, oppose tenure, or have a middle ground view? Why or why not?
"There ain't no good guy. There ain't no bad guy. There's only you & me & we just diasgree."
OhioGary
Posts: 68
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1/30/2013 2:42:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/30/2013 2:40:40 PM, OhioGary wrote:
Hi Everyone,

I'd like to get everyone's opinions on teacher tenure.

For the most part, public schools grant tenure to teachers after about 3 years on the job. Teachers with tenure receive significant job protections.

Proponents of eliminating tenure cite that teachers should be paid based on performance, and that job guarantees attract and retain ineffective teachers who cannot be removed from the classroom.

Proponents of maintaining tenure cite that teachers are not paid well and have significant job demands that require brining work home and being accessible for student and parent functions. The job protections keep effective teachers from leaving for better paying jobs.

Where are you on public school teacher tenure? Do you support tenure, oppose tenure, or have a middle ground view? Why or why not?

brining? Sorry everyone: bringing.

Carry on, then!
"There ain't no good guy. There ain't no bad guy. There's only you & me & we just diasgree."
LatentDebater
Posts: 136
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1/30/2013 2:42:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I don't believe in it.
I don't suffer from insanity; I enjoy every minute of it.

People who think they know everything are extremely irritating to those of us who do.

"If you believe in a god, just tell me why you don't believe in all the other gods. The reasons you give will be why I don't believe in yours." - Ricky THEGENIUS Gervais
OhioGary
Posts: 68
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1/30/2013 3:10:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/30/2013 2:42:44 PM, LatentDebater wrote:
I don't believe in it.

Why not?
"There ain't no good guy. There ain't no bad guy. There's only you & me & we just diasgree."
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,212
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1/30/2013 3:31:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/30/2013 3:10:54 PM, OhioGary wrote:
At 1/30/2013 2:42:44 PM, LatentDebater wrote:
I don't believe in it.

Why not?

Term limits for public offices.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,212
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1/30/2013 3:43:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Also, teachers might be paid more if there was more competition. Why pay an underperforming teacher with tenure more? School administrators use tenure as a carrot to keep schools well stocked so they don't have to go actively recruit teachers to fill the roster. If school administrators need to recruit available skilled teachers to fill the roster, they will have to offer better pay.
OhioGary
Posts: 68
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1/30/2013 9:40:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/30/2013 3:31:56 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 1/30/2013 3:10:54 PM, OhioGary wrote:
At 1/30/2013 2:42:44 PM, LatentDebater wrote:
I don't believe in it.

Why not?

Term limits for public offices.

Eh. I'm not a fan of term limits. That takes choices away from the people. I think we need smaller Congressional districts.
"There ain't no good guy. There ain't no bad guy. There's only you & me & we just diasgree."
sadolite
Posts: 8,834
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1/31/2013 8:02:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
"Public School Teacher Tenure? Chime in!"

Get rid of it now!! They should be in fear of losing their job without notice just like the rest of us. What makes them so special. A job is a job, they all have to be done.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
OhioGary
Posts: 68
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2/4/2013 6:09:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/1/2013 9:24:08 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 1/30/2013 9:40:06 PM, OhioGary wrote:
I'm not a fan of term limits. That takes choices away from the people.

I made your signature line? I guess I'm honored?
"There ain't no good guy. There ain't no bad guy. There's only you & me & we just diasgree."
OhioGary
Posts: 68
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2/5/2013 8:42:58 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/30/2013 3:43:19 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
Also, teachers might be paid more if there was more competition. Why pay an underperforming teacher with tenure more? School administrators use tenure as a carrot to keep schools well stocked so they don't have to go actively recruit teachers to fill the roster. If school administrators need to recruit available skilled teachers to fill the roster, they will have to offer better pay.

Greyparrot - I noticed that you listed your occupation as a teacher. And, I think this is an interesting argument being made here. I agree with you that competition would bring better wages and possibly help get rid of ineffective teachers. Perhaps the teaching profession is going to bring the impetus, if any, for tenure modification.

Here's a good quote from the following Times article:

Let districts act more like professional sports franchises so they can protect and incentivize the talent they most want to hold on to. Contracts could offer more than monetary incentives. Excellent teachers could be protected from layoffs, for example, or given enhanced professional development experiences. Most of us are not professional athletes, but you see the same approach in a variety of workplaces all the time.

Read more: http://www.time.com...
"There ain't no good guy. There ain't no bad guy. There's only you & me & we just diasgree."
slo1
Posts: 4,309
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2/14/2013 11:05:59 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
1. There are many bad teachers. I know a 6th grade English teacher who uses the word emancipation for the word emaciated.

2. The teaching profession has been put on a pedestal. IE: people believe such notions as, "teachers are underpaid", without question.

3. To get the best teachers in place:

A. Eliminate concept of tenure.

B. Put in a measurement of how well teachers performed by testing kids at beginning of year and testing at the end of year. The teacher's performance is then based upon how far they brought that class.

C. There are min standards that teachers have to meet as far as the results of B. And there are bonuses, significant bonuses if a teacher excels at bringing producing end results.

D. Find a real solution to kids that are extremely disruptive, extremely absent or have no business being in a standard class. May include technical schools starting in 10th grade among other ideas.

4. Get them the tools to teach children individually so smart and gifted children can progress and the children with challenges can progress rather than just trying to serve the average kid and progressing everyone to that average end goal.

Put in these basic common sense steps and all the sudden a really good teacher that spends extra time with all students to progress them as far as possible and they earn $10k to $20k on top their salary as reward for their accomplishment which in this case should be closely tied to effort. That make for lots of good happy productive teachers.
jaikkkechamp1
Posts: 2
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3/23/2013 5:15:40 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/30/2013 2:40:40 PM, OhioGary wrote:
Hi Everyone,

I'd like to get everyone's opinions on teacher tenure.

For the most part, public schools grant tenure to teachers after about 3 years on the job. Teachers with tenure receive significant job protections.

Proponents of eliminating tenure cite that teachers should be paid based on performance, and that job guarantees attract and retain ineffective teachers who cannot be removed from the classroom.

Proponents of maintaining tenure cite that teachers are not paid well and have significant job demands that require brining work home and being accessible for student and parent functions. The job protections keep effective teachers from leaving for better paying jobs.

Where are you on public school teacher tenure? Do you support tenure, oppose tenure, or have a middle ground view? Why or why not?
Hi
Welcome to this forum site, here u can find lost of thing, I suggest you for your problem you have to contact any other expert right now. I am not able to give u answer
Sorry for that """"..
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[url=http://www.ezdia.com...] ATI RADEON HD 5670 " SERIES GRAPHICS CARDS FROM AMD [/url]
jaikkkechamp1
Posts: 2
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3/23/2013 5:17:31 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/30/2013 2:42:11 PM, OhioGary wrote:
At 1/30/2013 2:40:40 PM, OhioGary wrote:
Hi Everyone,

I'd like to get everyone's opinions on teacher tenure.

For the most part, public schools grant tenure to teachers after about 3 years on the job. Teachers with tenure receive significant job protections.

Proponents of eliminating tenure cite that teachers should be paid based on performance, and that job guarantees attract and retain ineffective teachers who cannot be removed from the classroom.

Proponents of maintaining tenure cite that teachers are not paid well and have significant job demands that require brining work home and being accessible for student and parent functions. The job protections keep effective teachers from leaving for better paying jobs.

Where are you on public school teacher tenure? Do you support tenure, oppose tenure, or have a middle ground view? Why or why not?

brining? Sorry everyone: bringing.

Carry on, then!
Hi
Welcome to this forum site, here u can find lost of thing, I suggest you for your problem you have to contact any other expert right now. I am not able to give u answer
Sorry for that """"..
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
[url=http://www.ezdia.com...] ATI RADEON HD 5670 " SERIES GRAPHICS CARDS FROM AMD [/url]
Jjjohn
Posts: 16
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5/31/2014 11:34:12 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
when people debate ending teacher tenure, they are usually making assumptions that they are unaware of.

"tenure protects bad, old teachers and the seniority system fires younger, great teachers"
the assumption is that younger teachers are usually better. in other what fields are the people with less experience considered to be better at the job?

"tenure stops administrators from firing the bad or poorly performing teachers"
it does not. tenure requires certain steps be done in a certain order that a teacher be fired. however, teachers can and are fired for poor performance.

"if there was no tenure or no unions, the administrators could get rid of all of the bad teachers"
this assumes that the administrators would make staffing decisions based on skill level. in the US, in Ohio, they got rid of their teacher's unions. one of the rules that the administrators put in place was... that female teachers had to wear skirts to work.
Diqiucun_Cunmin
Posts: 2,710
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5/31/2014 11:51:04 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/30/2013 2:40:40 PM, OhioGary wrote:
Hi Everyone,

I'd like to get everyone's opinions on teacher tenure.

For the most part, public schools grant tenure to teachers after about 3 years on the job. Teachers with tenure receive significant job protections.

Proponents of eliminating tenure cite that teachers should be paid based on performance, and that job guarantees attract and retain ineffective teachers who cannot be removed from the classroom.

Proponents of maintaining tenure cite that teachers are not paid well and have significant job demands that require brining work home and being accessible for student and parent functions. The job protections keep effective teachers from leaving for better paying jobs.

Where are you on public school teacher tenure? Do you support tenure, oppose tenure, or have a middle ground view? Why or why not?

Middle ground view...

In Hong Kong, pre-1997 teachers usually have 'tenure' - I don't think they call them that, but they have very secure jobs at school. They may get 'demoted' to a school with worse results or transferred because of various reasons, but never fired. Some of these teachers are the best teachers around, like my economics teacher or, from what I've heard from my schoolmates, my form's biology teacher. Others happen to be the worst ones around (I won't name any, of course). Clearly there are both advantages and disadvantages to this 'tenure' thing.

Teachers who entered the teaching world after 1997, particularly the youngest ones, are usually employed by contract, and they get transferred from one school to another a lot. They may teach in one school for a year or two, then get transferred to another school kilometres from their first one. It's hard for such teachers to develop close relationships with their students because they're 'here today, gone tomorrow'. I have no idea why the government keeps transferring teachers like that, but they do.

There are, of course, also disadvantages for the teachers. The birth rate from 1997 to 2003 was extremely low because of social, economic and political reasons, so schools have been cutting down on the number of students. Thus teachers have been in even greater risk of unemployment over the last few years. I have little doubt that it was the younger teachers who lost their jobs because of this.

Incidentally, in Mainland China. there's a tenure system for the entire civil service...
The thing is, I hate relativism. I hate relativism more than I hate everything else, excepting, maybe, fibreglass powerboats... What it overlooks, to put it briefly and crudely, is the fixed structure of human nature. - Jerry Fodor

Don't be a stat cynic:
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Response to conservative views on deforestation:
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sadolite
Posts: 8,834
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6/2/2014 4:23:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Tenure is for elitists. Get rid of tenure everywhere. You have to prove your worth just like everyone else day in and day out. Tenure by it very definition means you don't have to try anymore, You literally have to kill someone to get fired and that may take a year or so while on paid administrative leave.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
klkl47
Posts: 92
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6/2/2014 6:22:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/30/2013 2:40:40 PM, OhioGary wrote:
Hi Everyone,

I'd like to get everyone's opinions on teacher tenure.

For the most part, public schools grant tenure to teachers after about 3 years on the job. Teachers with tenure receive significant job protections.

Proponents of eliminating tenure cite that teachers should be paid based on performance, and that job guarantees attract and retain ineffective teachers who cannot be removed from the classroom.

Proponents of maintaining tenure cite that teachers are not paid well and have significant job demands that require brining work home and being accessible for student and parent functions. The job protections keep effective teachers from leaving for better paying jobs.

Where are you on public school teacher tenure? Do you support tenure, oppose tenure, or have a middle ground view? Why or why not?

I oppose it. Too many bad tenured teacher experiences in my life. I think we should all strive for always getting better. And there are really no guarentees in anything. Having said that, I think it would be better to pay really good teachers, more.
Jjjohn
Posts: 16
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6/2/2014 10:26:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/2/2014 4:23:17 PM, sadolite wrote:
Tenure is for elitists. Get rid of tenure everywhere. You have to prove your worth just like everyone else day in and day out. Tenure by it very definition means you don't have to try anymore, You literally have to kill someone to get fired and that may take a year or so while on paid administrative leave.

You literally have to kill someone? Why should anyone take you seriously with this level of hyperbole?
sadolite
Posts: 8,834
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6/3/2014 8:41:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/2/2014 10:26:03 PM, Jjjohn wrote:
At 6/2/2014 4:23:17 PM, sadolite wrote:
Tenure is for elitists. Get rid of tenure everywhere. You have to prove your worth just like everyone else day in and day out. Tenure by it very definition means you don't have to try anymore, You literally have to kill someone to get fired and that may take a year or so while on paid administrative leave.

You literally have to kill someone? Why should anyone take you seriously with this level of hyperbole?

Well lets see sleeping with underage children doesn't get a teacher fired immediately. So what's next on the list after pedophilia.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
Jjjohn
Posts: 16
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6/3/2014 10:53:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/3/2014 8:41:12 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 6/2/2014 10:26:03 PM, Jjjohn wrote:
At 6/2/2014 4:23:17 PM, sadolite wrote:
Tenure is for elitists. Get rid of tenure everywhere. You have to prove your worth just like everyone else day in and day out. Tenure by it very definition means you don't have to try anymore, You literally have to kill someone to get fired and that may take a year or so while on paid administrative leave.

You literally have to kill someone? Why should anyone take you seriously with this level of hyperbole?

Well lets see sleeping with underage children doesn't get a teacher fired immediately. So what's next on the list after pedophilia.

You said "literally kill someone". Are you standing by that or are admitting that it was hyperbole?
sadolite
Posts: 8,834
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6/4/2014 1:48:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/3/2014 10:53:36 PM, Jjjohn wrote:
At 6/3/2014 8:41:12 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 6/2/2014 10:26:03 PM, Jjjohn wrote:
At 6/2/2014 4:23:17 PM, sadolite wrote:
Tenure is for elitists. Get rid of tenure everywhere. You have to prove your worth just like everyone else day in and day out. Tenure by it very definition means you don't have to try anymore, You literally have to kill someone to get fired and that may take a year or so while on paid administrative leave.

You literally have to kill someone? Why should anyone take you seriously with this level of hyperbole?

Well lets see sleeping with underage children doesn't get a teacher fired immediately. So what's next on the list after pedophilia.

You said "literally kill someone". Are you standing by that or are admitting that it was hyperbole?

I pretty much stand by it. You literately have to kill someone to immediately get fired as a school teacher without being put on paid administrative leave and be given a trial by the school board before they are actually let go. Most of the time they just transfer them to the intercity schools to victimize those children.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
Jjjohn
Posts: 16
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6/4/2014 7:14:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
"You literately have to kill someone to immediately get fired as a school teacher"

You appear to be wrong, Would you like to amend your claim in the face of actual evidence?
___________________________________

"When day care teacher Michelle Hammack briefly left her classroom to extinguish a nearby fire, she probably did not expect her actions to lead to her own firing.

Hammack"s employer fired her on the grounds that she should not have left the room where her students were sleeping,"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com...

________________________________

"Encino, Calif. teacher Lauren Vaughn is claiming in court that Westmark School officials fired her for truthfully speaking out about the school board chair offending students and parents with racially insensitive attire at a Tom Hanks-led fundraiser. "

http://www.huffingtonpost.com...

___________________________

"Tiffani Webb, New York High School Counselor, Fired For Modeling Past, Racy Photos Taken 17 Years Ago"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com...

_____________________

"The Ohio Supreme Court has upheld the firing of a Christian public school teacher who was terminated after he allegedly criticized evolution and refused to remove religious messages and books from his classroom."

http://www.theblaze.com...#

___________________________

"A former Seattle teacher has reached a $750,000 settlement from the public-school district that fired her seven years ago for not returning to work in a school building she said was harmful to her health."

http://seattletimes.com...

______________________

"On Tuesday, Aug. 20, the Jackson School Board approved a resolution on charges against Daren McClelland that, with the absence of an appeal from him, would result in his employment with the district being terminated.

The specific charges against McClelland were not made public at the meeting. However, JPS Superintendent Dan Evans said they were related to alleged falsification of student data."

____________________________
sadolite
Posts: 8,834
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6/5/2014 5:27:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/4/2014 7:14:36 PM, Jjjohn wrote:
"You literately have to kill someone to immediately get fired as a school teacher"

You appear to be wrong, Would you like to amend your claim in the face of actual evidence?
___________________________________

"When day care teacher Michelle Hammack briefly left her classroom to extinguish a nearby fire, she probably did not expect her actions to lead to her own firing.

Hammack"s employer fired her on the grounds that she should not have left the room where her students were sleeping,"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com...

________________________________

"Encino, Calif. teacher Lauren Vaughn is claiming in court that Westmark School officials fired her for truthfully speaking out about the school board chair offending students and parents with racially insensitive attire at a Tom Hanks-led fundraiser. "

http://www.huffingtonpost.com...

___________________________

"Tiffani Webb, New York High School Counselor, Fired For Modeling Past, Racy Photos Taken 17 Years Ago"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com...

_____________________

"The Ohio Supreme Court has upheld the firing of a Christian public school teacher who was terminated after he allegedly criticized evolution and refused to remove religious messages and books from his classroom."

http://www.theblaze.com...#

___________________________

"A former Seattle teacher has reached a $750,000 settlement from the public-school district that fired her seven years ago for not returning to work in a school building she said was harmful to her health."

http://seattletimes.com...

______________________

"On Tuesday, Aug. 20, the Jackson School Board approved a resolution on charges against Daren McClelland that, with the absence of an appeal from him, would result in his employment with the district being terminated.

The specific charges against McClelland were not made public at the meeting. However, JPS Superintendent Dan Evans said they were related to alleged falsification of student data."

____________________________

I stand my ground it is nearly impossible to fire a public school teacher without it costing tax payers hundreds of thousands of dollars and long drawn out court battles.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
Jjjohn
Posts: 16
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6/7/2014 9:18:51 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
so you are backing off your claim that murder is necessary to fire teachers. now your claim is teacher are hard to fire, which you earlier blamed on tenure. are you sure you have your facts straight?

_____________________________________________

"As one example, he points out Michelle Rhee, the former chancellor of public schools in Washington, D.C., who aggressively fired poor-performing teachers. To no surprise, Hess noted, firings almost always proves unpopular with parents and voters.

"There"s very little upside for a school or district leader to step up," Hess said. "School boards don"t like superintendents who cause a ruckus."

http://www.ibj.com...
-----------------------------------------------------------------

"Michelle Rhee, the reform-minded chancellor who took over the District of Columbia public schools three years ago, on Friday fired 241 teachers, or 5 percent of the district"s total

"All told, the district terminated 302 employees " 226 for poor performance, and 76 for other problems like not having the licensing required by the No Child Left Behind act."

http://www.nytimes.com...

_________________________________________________
sadolite
Posts: 8,834
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6/7/2014 4:48:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/7/2014 9:18:51 AM, Jjjohn wrote:
so you are backing off your claim that murder is necessary to fire teachers. now your claim is teacher are hard to fire, which you earlier blamed on tenure. are you sure you have your facts straight?

_____________________________________________

"As one example, he points out Michelle Rhee, the former chancellor of public schools in Washington, D.C., who aggressively fired poor-performing teachers. To no surprise, Hess noted, firings almost always proves unpopular with parents and voters.

"There"s very little upside for a school or district leader to step up," Hess said. "School boards don"t like superintendents who cause a ruckus."

http://www.ibj.com...
-----------------------------------------------------------------

"Michelle Rhee, the reform-minded chancellor who took over the District of Columbia public schools three years ago, on Friday fired 241 teachers, or 5 percent of the district"s total

"All told, the district terminated 302 employees " 226 for poor performance, and 76 for other problems like not having the licensing required by the No Child Left Behind act."

http://www.nytimes.com...

_________________________________________________

I will say it for the third time because you don't understand the context. It is almost impossible to fire a public school teacher without a long drawn out series of hearings and court proceedings costing tax payers hundreds of thousands of dollars short of a teacher committing murder.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
Jjjohn
Posts: 16
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6/7/2014 5:08:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/7/2014 4:48:55 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 6/7/2014 9:18:51 AM, Jjjohn wrote:
so you are backing off your claim that murder is necessary to fire teachers. now your claim is teacher are hard to fire, which you earlier blamed on tenure. are you sure you have your facts straight?

_____________________________________________

"As one example, he points out Michelle Rhee, the former chancellor of public schools in Washington, D.C., who aggressively fired poor-performing teachers. To no surprise, Hess noted, firings almost always proves unpopular with parents and voters.

"There"s very little upside for a school or district leader to step up," Hess said. "School boards don"t like superintendents who cause a ruckus."

http://www.ibj.com...
-----------------------------------------------------------------

"Michelle Rhee, the reform-minded chancellor who took over the District of Columbia public schools three years ago, on Friday fired 241 teachers, or 5 percent of the district"s total

"All told, the district terminated 302 employees " 226 for poor performance, and 76 for other problems like not having the licensing required by the No Child Left Behind act."

http://www.nytimes.com...

_________________________________________________

I will say it for the third time because you don't understand the context. It is almost impossible to fire a public school teacher without a long drawn out series of hearings and court proceedings costing tax payers hundreds of thousands of dollars short of a teacher committing murder.

i have provided you with many counterexamples to your claim, your hyperbole notwithstanding.
sadolite
Posts: 8,834
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6/7/2014 7:30:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/7/2014 5:08:28 PM, Jjjohn wrote:
At 6/7/2014 4:48:55 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 6/7/2014 9:18:51 AM, Jjjohn wrote:
so you are backing off your claim that murder is necessary to fire teachers. now your claim is teacher are hard to fire, which you earlier blamed on tenure. are you sure you have your facts straight?

_____________________________________________

"As one example, he points out Michelle Rhee, the former chancellor of public schools in Washington, D.C., who aggressively fired poor-performing teachers. To no surprise, Hess noted, firings almost always proves unpopular with parents and voters.

"There"s very little upside for a school or district leader to step up," Hess said. "School boards don"t like superintendents who cause a ruckus."

http://www.ibj.com...
-----------------------------------------------------------------

"Michelle Rhee, the reform-minded chancellor who took over the District of Columbia public schools three years ago, on Friday fired 241 teachers, or 5 percent of the district"s total

"All told, the district terminated 302 employees " 226 for poor performance, and 76 for other problems like not having the licensing required by the No Child Left Behind act."

http://www.nytimes.com...

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I will say it for the third time because you don't understand the context. It is almost impossible to fire a public school teacher without a long drawn out series of hearings and court proceedings costing tax payers hundreds of thousands of dollars short of a teacher committing murder.

i have provided you with many counterexamples to your claim, your hyperbole notwithstanding.

Yes you did and the vast majority required long drawn out hearings at tax payer expense. You can't just fire a public school teacher and have them be gone not to return to work tomorrow or not be put on paid vacation ( I mean administrative leave) for months on end. I don't care about the few isolated examples you give, they are the extreme exception, It is in no way the norm. It is utterly impossible to fire a public school teacher on the spot short of them murdering someone. We can do this all day, I wont back down from my assertion about how hard it is to fire a public school teacher. And my comparison is not far off as to what it would take to fire A PUBLIC SCHOOL TEACHER ON THE SPOT. IN THE PRINCIPALS OFFICE YOUR FIRED, DON'T EVER COME BACK.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%