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A New Education System

American_Joe
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11/23/2009 4:56:52 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Goals of the system
-To not advance a student that's not ready.
-If a student needs more help he gets it.

I'm thinking of not having a k-12 system but a more individual achievement system. Where a student is more of a investment for the future.

The way I think of it is to have a placement system like they do for college. The college I went too you took a placement exam first thing and that told them where to put you based on how well you did on the test.

The test would be based on input from colleges, business, and parents and be update every say 5 years if needs be.

So the whole first week or so of school would be testing on the core parts and the teachers based you on your test and put you at a certain level.

Levels like:
-below average
-average
-above average

The levels decide how big the class size is and how any teachers there are.
-below average would have smaller class sizes but more teachers per student or more teachers per class for people who need it more personal time.
-others levels would be based on input from teachers and parents

So hopefully by they time they hit the level(year) of high school the people who are where their should be can take some more vocational(interest) based classes that can transfer to college credits and the students who still need the help have more teachers so at the end of high school they at least are at a certain level before they get out of school.

A system where for a week they have parent- teacher conference and they can decide what to do for the student.

A system where teachers are free enough to try new things if they find a way to better help students.

Maybe have a national teachers forum where teachers can post problems or get ideas that work somewhere else and be able to try them out.

-Have more national contest in debate, electronics(like robot wars),etc

Of course nobody would know how much a system like this would cost but I would be in favor of stopping some of this war spending and using it on education. Military spending cost more then all departments of government combined right now. I would rather recruit more teachers right now then soldiers.

I know I didn't do the best in explaining my system but its harder to put into words then have it play out in your mind.

I'm hoping to get some good ideas and debates on what might work or not and edit the topic accordingly. Also fell free to add what you would do instead.
mattrodstrom
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11/23/2009 5:05:32 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I'd say it sounds like a good idea, one which can be realised if a few schools were set up that way as charter schools and/or publicly funded private schools then if the system works more such schools would come about and take more away from the public school system, and eventually the Public administrated systems would go away and all schools would compete on their own merits, and if your system provided the best results it would dominate.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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11/23/2009 5:09:34 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
It doesn't really matter. Leave the education system to the educators. A private education system would allow a variety and a competition to ensure the most effective means for education is discovered.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
American_Joe
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11/23/2009 5:14:19 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
problems with the system
-where i come from(a small town of under 4000 people) it hard to have a class for higher level kids cuss their arn't enough of them. some take classes online cuss of that, why not if needs be combine schools from other towns and have them go to some "level up centers" for more high level education or even more vocational training
American_Joe
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11/23/2009 5:20:51 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/23/2009 5:18:45 PM, Puck wrote:
Have them focus on grammar where you are. >.> quick thought typing sorry, but i would rather you have an idea on the subject more
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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11/23/2009 5:21:26 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
"A system where for a week they have parent- teacher conference and they can decide what to do for the student."

That's an issue with any school program - the desired results vs. a method that achieves it. If one wants to achieve something, look to those research papers, where there is empirical evidence that certain methods or programs reach the desired result. Not some silly consensus of wishful thinking in the vague hope that what sounds like a good idea actually is.
American_Joe
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11/23/2009 5:28:41 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/23/2009 5:27:01 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
It's called Western Europe. Look at it.

what kind of system you guys got over there?
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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11/23/2009 6:35:20 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/23/2009 5:52:07 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
You could always try a system in which the kids that can't keep up are kicked out into the workforce. At least there, they aren't wasting the state's resources, and they're actually doing something productive for the society in which they are "participating".

Australian Govt., is set trying to introduce something sort of similar, where those who do not go into any form of skilled employment or higher education, will have to complete community service. That includes most low level service industry jobs atm.
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,484
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11/23/2009 6:41:33 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/23/2009 6:35:20 PM, Puck wrote:
At 11/23/2009 5:52:07 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
You could always try a system in which the kids that can't keep up are kicked out into the workforce. At least there, they aren't wasting the state's resources, and they're actually doing something productive for the society in which they are "participating".

Australian Govt., is set trying to introduce something sort of similar, where those who do not go into any form of skilled employment or higher education, will have to complete community service. That includes most low level service industry jobs atm.

Really, now? That sounds pretty nice.
Harlan
Posts: 1,880
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11/23/2009 6:46:05 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I think that other important elements should be:

-No obligatory side of education. It should be a social contract as any society would be.

-Fewer days of the week.

-(don't know if you already mentioned) no standardized testing

-Teachers that are not psychopaths. i.e. have very little tolerance for the slightest misconduct of any kind coming from a teacher.

-Much less restrictions and mandates on the actions and curriculum of teachers, but rather only hire teachers who have a good teaching philosophy and whom the school can trust.
USAPitBull63
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11/24/2009 12:00:27 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
The solution is simple: We should hire only perfect teachers, who could then help teach students to be perfect.

How do we achieve such a high standard? Several ways:

1 - Allow students to advance once they "feel" smart enough to do so. Not allowing this may hurt their feelings, which could stunt intellectual and emotional maturity.

2 - Have "International Green Recess" where students spend 30 minutes per day planting and tending to trees and other flora (instead of regular recess). This would be done before cameras that allow live footage to stream into schools across the globe, encouraging other students to do the same. (Al Gore can provide color commentary on special occasions.) Also, during inclement weather, students can watch other countries' recess (for inspiration) or an inventoried copy of "An Inconvenient Truth."

3 - Tax the wealthy more to pay for such a system. After all, they don't really need all that money, and students do. Money always equals better output, especially considering how it's always put to the right uses by bureaucratic agencies like the National Department of Education.

If we follow these guidelines, we'll be ahead of the rest of the world in no time.
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,484
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11/24/2009 5:26:19 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/24/2009 12:00:27 AM, USAPitBull63 wrote:
The solution is simple: We should hire only perfect teachers, who could then help teach students to be perfect.

How do we achieve such a high standard? Several ways:

1 - Allow students to advance once they "feel" smart enough to do so. Not allowing this may hurt their feelings, which could stunt intellectual and emotional maturity.

2 - Have "International Green Recess" where students spend 30 minutes per day planting and tending to trees and other flora (instead of regular recess). This would be done before cameras that allow live footage to stream into schools across the globe, encouraging other students to do the same. (Al Gore can provide color commentary on special occasions.) Also, during inclement weather, students can watch other countries' recess (for inspiration) or an inventoried copy of "An Inconvenient Truth."

3 - Tax the wealthy more to pay for such a system. After all, they don't really need all that money, and students do. Money always equals better output, especially considering how it's always put to the right uses by bureaucratic agencies like the National Department of Education.

If we follow these guidelines, we'll be ahead of the rest of the world in no time.

Hey, now. As director of the DDO CIA, I resent your satire of government spending.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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11/24/2009 10:14:41 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/24/2009 12:00:27 AM, USAPitBull63 wrote:
The solution is simple: We should hire only perfect teachers, who could then help teach students to be perfect.
No such thing as perfect teachers. hence, no such thing as perfect students.
How do we achieve such a high standard? Several ways:
Its impossible to acheive such high standards.
1 - Allow students to advance once they "feel" smart enough to do so. Not allowing this may hurt their feelings, which could stunt intellectual and emotional maturity.
If a student doesnt "feel" smart enough to advance, for 20 years, do we keep them in grade 9 for 20 years? Your argument fails in light of the facts.
2 - Have "International Green Recess" where students spend 30 minutes per day planting and tending to trees and other flora (instead of regular recess). This would be done before cameras that allow live footage to stream into schools across the globe, encouraging other students to do the same. (Al Gore can provide color commentary on special occasions.) Also, during inclement weather, students can watch other countries' recess (for inspiration) or an inventoried copy of "An Inconvenient Truth."
Forced labour. Great. First, how the hell does this help produce "Perfect" students, and secondly, how is this any different than schoolwork?

3 - Tax the wealthy more to pay for such a system. After all, they don't really need all that money, and students do. Money always equals better output, especially considering how it's always put to the right uses by bureaucratic agencies like the National Department of Education.

We already tax the wealthy more than the poor.

If we follow these guidelines, we'll be ahead of the rest of the world in no time.

If we follow these guidelines, well be behind the rest of the world in no time. most of the students would be stuck in grade 9-12, and unable to progress. We would then start having an overflow of students because there are too many students who are held back because they do not "Feel" like they are smart enough to advance. The schools would be overcrowded. Each student will be neglected, further making them lag behind.

Your system fails miserably in light of the facts.
Lifeisgood
Posts: 295
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11/24/2009 2:05:09 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/23/2009 5:09:34 PM, wjmelements wrote:
It doesn't really matter. Leave the education system to the educators. A private education system would allow a variety and a competition to ensure the most effective means for education is discovered.

Amen. Preach it, brotha.
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,484
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11/24/2009 2:07:02 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/24/2009 10:14:41 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 11/24/2009 12:00:27 AM, USAPitBull63 wrote:
The solution is simple: We should hire only perfect teachers, who could then help teach students to be perfect.
No such thing as perfect teachers. hence, no such thing as perfect students.
How do we achieve such a high standard? Several ways:
Its impossible to acheive such high standards.
1 - Allow students to advance once they "feel" smart enough to do so. Not allowing this may hurt their feelings, which could stunt intellectual and emotional maturity.
If a student doesnt "feel" smart enough to advance, for 20 years, do we keep them in grade 9 for 20 years? Your argument fails in light of the facts.
2 - Have "International Green Recess" where students spend 30 minutes per day planting and tending to trees and other flora (instead of regular recess). This would be done before cameras that allow live footage to stream into schools across the globe, encouraging other students to do the same. (Al Gore can provide color commentary on special occasions.) Also, during inclement weather, students can watch other countries' recess (for inspiration) or an inventoried copy of "An Inconvenient Truth."
Forced labour. Great. First, how the hell does this help produce "Perfect" students, and secondly, how is this any different than schoolwork?

3 - Tax the wealthy more to pay for such a system. After all, they don't really need all that money, and students do. Money always equals better output, especially considering how it's always put to the right uses by bureaucratic agencies like the National Department of Education.

We already tax the wealthy more than the poor.

If we follow these guidelines, we'll be ahead of the rest of the world in no time.

If we follow these guidelines, well be behind the rest of the world in no time. most of the students would be stuck in grade 9-12, and unable to progress. We would then start having an overflow of students because there are too many students who are held back because they do not "Feel" like they are smart enough to advance. The schools would be overcrowded. Each student will be neglected, further making them lag behind.

Your system fails miserably in light of the facts.

You do know that he was joking, right tkubok?
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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11/24/2009 2:07:43 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/24/2009 5:26:19 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 11/24/2009 12:00:27 AM, USAPitBull63 wrote:
The solution is simple: We should hire only perfect teachers, who could then help teach students to be perfect.

How do we achieve such a high standard? Several ways:

1 - Allow students to advance once they "feel" smart enough to do so. Not allowing this may hurt their feelings, which could stunt intellectual and emotional maturity.

2 - Have "International Green Recess" where students spend 30 minutes per day planting and tending to trees and other flora (instead of regular recess). This would be done before cameras that allow live footage to stream into schools across the globe, encouraging other students to do the same. (Al Gore can provide color commentary on special occasions.) Also, during inclement weather, students can watch other countries' recess (for inspiration) or an inventoried copy of "An Inconvenient Truth."

3 - Tax the wealthy more to pay for such a system. After all, they don't really need all that money, and students do. Money always equals better output, especially considering how it's always put to the right uses by bureaucratic agencies like the National Department of Education.

If we follow these guidelines, we'll be ahead of the rest of the world in no time.

Hey, now. As director of the DDO CIA, I resent your satire of government spending.

Cool it, the administration has scheduled an end to that sort of spending.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,484
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11/24/2009 2:16:14 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/24/2009 2:07:43 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 11/24/2009 5:26:19 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 11/24/2009 12:00:27 AM, USAPitBull63 wrote:
The solution is simple: We should hire only perfect teachers, who could then help teach students to be perfect.

How do we achieve such a high standard? Several ways:

1 - Allow students to advance once they "feel" smart enough to do so. Not allowing this may hurt their feelings, which could stunt intellectual and emotional maturity.

2 - Have "International Green Recess" where students spend 30 minutes per day planting and tending to trees and other flora (instead of regular recess). This would be done before cameras that allow live footage to stream into schools across the globe, encouraging other students to do the same. (Al Gore can provide color commentary on special occasions.) Also, during inclement weather, students can watch other countries' recess (for inspiration) or an inventoried copy of "An Inconvenient Truth."

3 - Tax the wealthy more to pay for such a system. After all, they don't really need all that money, and students do. Money always equals better output, especially considering how it's always put to the right uses by bureaucratic agencies like the National Department of Education.

If we follow these guidelines, we'll be ahead of the rest of the world in no time.

Hey, now. As director of the DDO CIA, I resent your satire of government spending.

Cool it, the administration has scheduled an end to that sort of spending.

I'll just use my department's money to pay for education, then. ;) But, the catch is, I'll do it my way.
tmhustler
Posts: 68
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11/24/2009 3:39:04 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Main problem with that system is that it caters to the less intelligent rather than the more intelligent.
latest debate http://www.debate.org...
purpose of education only 3 votes so far
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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11/24/2009 9:50:31 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/24/2009 2:16:14 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 11/24/2009 2:07:43 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 11/24/2009 5:26:19 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 11/24/2009 12:00:27 AM, USAPitBull63 wrote:
The solution is simple: We should hire only perfect teachers, who could then help teach students to be perfect.

How do we achieve such a high standard? Several ways:

1 - Allow students to advance once they "feel" smart enough to do so. Not allowing this may hurt their feelings, which could stunt intellectual and emotional maturity.

2 - Have "International Green Recess" where students spend 30 minutes per day planting and tending to trees and other flora (instead of regular recess). This would be done before cameras that allow live footage to stream into schools across the globe, encouraging other students to do the same. (Al Gore can provide color commentary on special occasions.) Also, during inclement weather, students can watch other countries' recess (for inspiration) or an inventoried copy of "An Inconvenient Truth."

3 - Tax the wealthy more to pay for such a system. After all, they don't really need all that money, and students do. Money always equals better output, especially considering how it's always put to the right uses by bureaucratic agencies like the National Department of Education.

If we follow these guidelines, we'll be ahead of the rest of the world in no time.

Hey, now. As director of the DDO CIA, I resent your satire of government spending.

Cool it, the administration has scheduled an end to that sort of spending.

I'll just use my department's money to pay for education, then. ;) But, the catch is, I'll do it my way.

Violates your charter, sorry mon.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
USAPitBull63
Posts: 668
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11/24/2009 10:07:36 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/24/2009 10:14:41 AM, tkubok wrote:

No such thing as perfect teachers. hence, no such thing as perfect students.

Its impossible to acheive such high standards.

If a student doesnt "feel" smart enough to advance, for 20 years, do we keep them in grade 9 for 20 years? Your argument fails in light of the facts.

Forced labour. Great. First, how the hell does this help produce "Perfect" students, and secondly, how is this any different than schoolwork?

We already tax the wealthy more than the poor.

If we follow these guidelines, well be behind the rest of the world in no time. most of the students would be stuck in grade 9-12, and unable to progress. We would then start having an overflow of students because there are too many students who are held back because they do not "Feel" like they are smart enough to advance. The schools would be overcrowded. Each student will be neglected, further making them lag behind.

Your system fails miserably in light of the facts.

And you fail miserably at recognizing satire.
USAPitBull63
Posts: 668
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11/24/2009 10:18:52 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/24/2009 2:07:43 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:

At 11/24/2009 5:26:19 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Hey, now. As director of the DDO CIA, I resent your satire of government spending.

Cool it, the administration has scheduled an end to that sort of spending.

My vote may pay off yet.
tmhustler
Posts: 68
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11/25/2009 12:24:00 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/24/2009 7:03:36 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 11/24/2009 3:39:04 PM, tmhustler wrote:
Main problem with that system is that it caters to the less intelligent rather than the more intelligent.

Which system?

The originally posed by this thread

my idea is the smartest get the best teachers and the best material
latest debate http://www.debate.org...
purpose of education only 3 votes so far
alto2osu
Posts: 277
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12/3/2009 1:32:34 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
No doubt education in the U.S. is generally headed in so many directions that we don't know which the right one is, but that's the biggest problem. Some focus would do this nation some friggin' good, instead of this "education is a state's right" crap that has us trying to make 50 different bureaucratic nighmares accountable for America's proper education.

Now, onto random observations as I read this thread:

First of all, I heart the idea of social contract principle in schools. This is what I do in my classroom to the extent that I can get away with it. However, obligatory attendance is a necessity of the real world. Otherwise, we have what we have now, which is outsourced...well...everything. Education is the cornerstone to the prolonged success of any society.

Second of all, fewer days is B.S. I work in a 4-day-a-week district, and if you want teachers to be effective and students to grow the hell p and be able to deal with an 8-hour work day, it just doesn't work out with less than a full week. Granted, I have a pretty radical homework philosophy that makes my classroom much more practical, but still.

Next, standardized testing is fine *if it's done right.* If it's handled like it is now, with NCLB and all that jazz, then the U.S. = captain of the failboat, so christened SS "State-Run Education." In fact, I'm all for the standards movement, because it is the only thing that even comes close to addressing the problem I outlined in the first paragraph. Like, if kids can't pass a minimum competency exam by 10th grade, wtf are we giving them a diploma in the first place?

On to teacher misconduct and "psychos." Here's the deal: the teaching professional is unlike many others in that standard office decorum leads to no learning. If this is a social contract classroom, then legitly teachers should be able to establish much closer relationships with students then we are allowed to. The problem: the US has like "catholic priest" syndrome and insists that any teacher who dares to become a mentor figure is treated like a career pedophile. For education to work, we need to seriously re-examine what "misconduct" is. I mean, in most cases, I spend more hours with my students then their own parents do.

Lastly, dividing up resources based on intelligence is a monumentally flawed concept, lest one is of the impression that intelligence is the sole product of genetic transfer, which it isn't. You can't implement that plan unless every student is homogeneously reared. And, since potential can't be pigeonholed on a scantron, you basically get status quo if you try to use current metrics to determine who deserves more resources.

My changes to education are buried in there somewhere. :)
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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12/3/2009 1:37:37 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 12/3/2009 1:32:34 PM, alto2osu wrote:

Being a teacher yourself, I'm curious as to what you think on establishing more and more charter schools, and giving out school vouchers.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
alto2osu
Posts: 277
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12/3/2009 2:51:01 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I'm actually not a huge fan at all of charter schools, mostly because they tend to focus way too narrowly on a single educational philosophy. If the point of an education is to provide a breadth and depth of cognitive skills and information to future citizens while still acting as a stable social institution within which they can develop into viable members of society, then charter schools tend to fail because they approach learning only one way.

I esp. hate Waldorf schools. Blech. Talk about touchy feely B.S.

Now, if you mean private schools, then I think that private schools are only better/novel because there are so few of them. Not only that, but a private school does not guarantee the universality of educational standards (because private schools are not overseen by the state in the same way) or quality teachers.

I mean, what we need to be doing with education reform is making our public schools more high quality, rather than vouchering out kids to private schools, which is expensive and, if you ask me, unethical. The government's job, if they want to maintain a self-sustaining nation, is to educate youth. We don't need a voucher system if Americans can vest some faith in public education.