Total Posts:22|Showing Posts:1-22
Jump to topic:

Challenge to Christians

Mirza
Posts: 16,992
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/23/2009 5:13:48 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
There are various Christians on this site, and around the world, who constantly try to bash the Qur'an, merely because it says something different to what the Bible says.

I don't want to argue with you. I want to discuss properly. If there is any reason for a Muslim to convert to Christianity, then mention it. What I don't understand is why Christians don't believe in the Qur'an. First of all, the Bible never said that it is the last revelation from God. Second of all, Jesus (peace be upon him) himself has said that there will be a messenger after him, and explained detailed about Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). For instance, he said that he will be like unto Moses (peace be upon him), and Moses was a king, and died a natural death. Prophet Muhammad was a king too, and he died a natural death. They both had parents, Jesus only had a mother. Both had children. Moreover, the Bible says that there will be "ten thousands of saints" who will go and execute judgment upon a people [polytheists] who do ungodly acts. When the Muslims conquered Mecca, they were 10,000, and they spread the message of monotheism and told the polytheists the truth. This is all one example from the Bible itself.

Moreover, the Bible is found is several version. Which one should I believe in? It does not say anywhere in the Bible that I should believe in 66 books, or 73, or more. That is why there are so many sects within Christianity. Regarding sects within Islam, they are formed from false claims, but we all believe in one Qur'an. And it is clear what we should believe.

[Qur'an 4:82] "Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy."

The Qur'an challenges any soul to find one single hole in it. It even says that other religious books have inconsistencies, because they are not from God. Anybody can accept this challenge, but nobody will ever pass it.

Besides all this, Muslims believe in Jesus. Jesus said that we must worship nobody but the only God.
PoeJoe
Posts: 3,822
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/23/2009 5:40:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/23/2009 5:14:29 PM, Mirza wrote:
Can this be moved to the "Religion" forum? I created it here for some reason...

There aren't any moderators, most of the time. And even if they were around, they wouldn't have the capabilities to move a thread.

If you want, you can repost it. Not many care, though.
Television Rot: http://tvrot.com...
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/23/2009 5:42:45 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/23/2009 5:40:51 PM, PoeJoe wrote:
If you want, you can repost it. Not many care, though.
It doesn't matter now. And it's not a good thing responding to the same topic as two threads.
omelet
Posts: 416
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/23/2009 5:45:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/23/2009 5:13:48 PM, Mirza wrote:
There are various Christians on this site, and around the world, who constantly try to bash the Qur'an, merely because it says something different to what the Bible says.
They don't because it because the Bible is the book they give warrantless credentials to, and the Qu'ran contradicts the bible on many counts.

I don't want to argue with you. I want to discuss properly. If there is any reason for a Muslim to convert to Christianity, then mention it.
I'm sure they would tell you that Jesus was the son of God, the only way to the father is through him, etc.
Basically, all the parts of the bible you don't think are true.

What I don't understand is why Christians don't believe in the Qur'an.
You don't understand a lot of things.

First of all, the Bible never said that it is the last revelation from God.
That does not mean that anyone can make an addition to it and that addition must be viewed as valid.

Second of all, Jesus (peace be upon him) himself has said that there will be a messenger after him, and explained detailed about Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).
Please, provide the bible verse as a source.

Moreover, the Bible says that there will be "ten thousands of saints" who will go and execute judgment upon a people [polytheists] who do ungodly acts. When the Muslims conquered Mecca, they were 10,000, and they spread the message of monotheism and told the polytheists the truth. This is all one example from the Bible itself.
Again, provide bible sources for the biblical claim and historical sources for your historical claim.

Moreover, the Bible is found is several version. Which one should I believe in? It does not say anywhere in the Bible that I should believe in 66 books, or 73, or more.
If I add a chapter to the Qu'ran, does that make both versions rubbish? No.
But of course, I happen to agree that all of the versions of the bible are not true, but having multiple versions is not the reason they are all false.

That is why there are so many sects within Christianity. Regarding sects within Islam, they are formed from false claims, but we all believe in one Qur'an. And it is clear what we should believe.
Obviously not so clear, when there are some sects who believe one thing, some who believe another - some who interpret a verse one way, some who interpret it other ways.

[Qur'an 4:82] "Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy."
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com...
I'm not going to bother arguing with you myself because you will simply ignore the evidence against you, but many flat-out contradictions are brought up there.

The Qur'an challenges any soul to find one single hole in it. It even says that other religious books have inconsistencies, because they are not from God. Anybody can accept this challenge, but nobody will ever pass it.
No one will ever convince a deaf man with spoken words. Your unwillingness to acknowledge the valid points of the opposition is not equivalent to their points being invalid.

Besides all this, Muslims believe in Jesus. Jesus said that we must worship nobody but the only God.
Many atheists believe in Jesus too, they just don't believe the specific claims about Jesus in the bible. Like these atheists, you reject some of the biblical claims about Jesus, though you do accept some others.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/23/2009 6:16:06 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/23/2009 5:45:51 PM, omelet wrote:
They don't because it because the Bible is the book they give warrantless credentials to, and the Qu'ran contradicts the bible on many counts.
This is not proper reasoning. Just because the Bible says one thing does not mean that it speaks the truth.

I'm sure they would tell you that Jesus was the son of God, the only way to the father is through him, etc.
Basically, all the parts of the bible you don't think are true.
I'm aware of that.

That does not mean that anyone can make an addition to it and that addition must be viewed as valid.
It doesn't mean that God will not bring a last testament either. God sent the Old, then New Testament, and the last testament is the Qur'an. Besides, the Qur'an contradicts the New Testament as much as the new Testament contradicts the Old, yet Christians accept both of them, except the Qur'an.

Please, provide the bible verse as a source.

Again, provide bible sources for the biblical claim and historical sources for your historical claim.
As for historical evidence, you can refer to Islamic history which can be read on many sites. It's easy enough. But let's check what the Bible says.

Firstly, the Qur'an says in chapter 7 verse 157, "Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel..."

This is evidence from the Qur'an itself that the beloved Prophet was mentioned in both the Old and New Testament. But the Bible itself speaks about the same messenger.

[Habakkuk 3:3] "God [His help] came from Teman [it is an oasis north of Medina], the Holy One from Mount Paran [Paran in the Bible is Mecca in the Qur'an]. Selah. His glory covered the heavens and his praise filled the earth."

This is one example among many others. There is detailed explanation about that on numerous sites, such as this one: http://www.islamicity.com...

If I add a chapter to the Qu'ran, does that make both versions rubbish? No.
No, but which one should we believe in? Why is one of them more authentic than the another?

But of course, I happen to agree that all of the versions of the bible are not true, but having multiple versions is not the reason they are all false.
No not at all, but which ones are false? That's the question here.

Obviously not so clear, when there are some sects who believe one thing, some who believe another - some who interpret a verse one way, some who interpret it other ways.
Islamic sects are from one book, and we can find the truth in there. Christian sects are from one book with many versions, so there's no point in looking for truth in any of them, if none of them come with clear proof of why they are more true than others. But this, of course, is not found in the Bible.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com...
I have refuted as many false claims as I've come across, and you can refer to another thread regarding this. But that site obviously tries to fool people by writing verses out of context. For instance, who was the first of Muslims? http://skepticsannotatedbible.com...

We have to read things in context and their historical background, and look at what authentic hadith speak about them.

[Qur'an 39:12] "And I [Muhammad] am commanded to be the first of those who are muslims (surrender unto Him)."

This does not imply anywhere that Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was the first Muslim. What this means is that he was the first to pray to God the way Muslims pray today, and the first to accept the Qur'anic message, which was revealed to him. So he was the first to accept God's last revelation to humankind, and this does not contradict anything.

I'm not going to bother arguing with you myself because you will simply ignore the evidence against you, but many flat-out contradictions are brought up there.
Isn't it the same with you?

No one will ever convince a deaf man with spoken words. Your unwillingness to acknowledge the valid points of the opposition is not equivalent to their points being invalid.
Since when did this apply to religious people only?

Many atheists believe in Jesus too, they just don't believe the specific claims about Jesus in the bible. Like these atheists, you reject some of the biblical claims about Jesus, though you do accept some others.
I'm talking about Jesus (peace be upon him) as a Prophet. Muslims regard him as a Prophet too, so nowhere does it contradict the Bible.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/23/2009 6:24:00 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Mirza, From what I remember Jesus, according to Catholicism, was the last of the prophets and that the only one to come in the name of God after was to be himself, at the end of the world, to bring the Devil his due.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
omelet
Posts: 416
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/23/2009 7:55:58 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/23/2009 6:16:06 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/23/2009 5:45:51 PM, omelet wrote:
They don't because it because the Bible is the book they give warrantless credentials to, and the Qu'ran contradicts the bible on many counts.
This is not proper reasoning. Just because the Bible says one thing does not mean that it speaks the truth.
I agree, and I agree with the same reasoning being applied to the Qu'ran. I don't take either book to be a source of absolute truth, since there is no rational basis to do either.
I was just pointing out what a Christian would say.

I'm sure they would tell you that Jesus was the son of God, the only way to the father is through him, etc.
Basically, all the parts of the bible you don't think are true.
I'm aware of that.
Then why did you ask?

That does not mean that anyone can make an addition to it and that addition must be viewed as valid.
It doesn't mean that God will not bring a last testament either. God sent the Old, then New Testament, and the last testament is the Qur'an. Besides, the Qur'an contradicts the New Testament as much as the new Testament contradicts the Old, yet Christians accept both of them, except the Qur'an.
Stating something as fact does not make it fact. Nice naked assertion. Just because you think the Qu'ran is a last revelation from God does not make it fact.

Using Qu'ran as a source about what the bible says
This is why people don't think you're intelligent. If you want to prove that your prophet was in the bible, you're going to need a source from the Bible that shows just that.

If I add a chapter to the Qu'ran, does that make both versions rubbish? No.
No, but which one should we believe in? Why is one of them more authentic than the another?
Which one should we believe in? Neither. Of course, we shouldn't accept the Qu'ran as truth whether or not I've made an edited version with an extra chapter.

But of course, I happen to agree that all of the versions of the bible are not true, but having multiple versions is not the reason they are all false.
No not at all, but which ones are false? That's the question here.
I think they're all false.

Obviously not so clear, when there are some sects who believe one thing, some who believe another - some who interpret a verse one way, some who interpret it other ways.
Islamic sects are from one book, and we can find the truth in there. Christian sects are from one book with many versions, so there's no point in looking for truth in any of them, if none of them come with clear proof of why they are more true than others. But this, of course, is not found in the Bible.
Your one book has many interpretations. "The truth" is not well-laid-out - it's ambiguous. Guess God wasn't that great at writing.

I'm not going to bother arguing with you myself because you will simply ignore the evidence against you, but many flat-out contradictions are brought up there.
Isn't it the same with you?
No. If you have evidence, I will take a look. My position is that the Qu'ran and all holy books are works of fiction.

No one will ever convince a deaf man with spoken words. Your unwillingness to acknowledge the valid points of the opposition is not equivalent to their points being invalid.
Since when did this apply to religious people only?
It doesn't. However, religion is based on faith rather than evidence, and so it is not an unwillingness to accept evidence that prevents atheists from converting.

Many atheists believe in Jesus too, they just don't believe the specific claims about Jesus in the bible. Like these atheists, you reject some of the biblical claims about Jesus, though you do accept some others.
I'm talking about Jesus (peace be upon him) as a Prophet. Muslims regard him as a Prophet too, so nowhere does it contradict the Bible.
The bible portrays him as much more than a prophet, especially in the Gospel of John. Many of the stories in the Bible do not match up with their Qu'ranic equivalents. The Qu'ran and the Bible contradict each other on the issue of Jesus. This of course isn't a problem for me, since works of fiction are allowed to contradict each other.
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/23/2009 8:00:01 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/23/2009 5:13:48 PM, Mirza wrote:
There are various Christians on this site, and around the world, who constantly try to bash the Qur'an, merely because it says something different to what the Bible says.

I don't want to argue with you. I want to discuss properly. If there is any reason for a Muslim to convert to Christianity, then mention it. What I don't understand is why Christians don't believe in the Qur'an. First of all, the Bible never said that it is the last revelation from God. Second of all, Jesus (peace be upon him) himself has said that there will be a messenger after him, and explained detailed about Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). For instance, he said that he will be like unto Moses (peace be upon him), and Moses was a king, and died a natural death. Prophet Muhammad was a king too, and he died a natural death. They both had parents, Jesus only had a mother. Both had children. Moreover, the Bible says that there will be "ten thousands of saints" who will go and execute judgment upon a people [polytheists] who do ungodly acts. When the Muslims conquered Mecca, they were 10,000, and they spread the message of monotheism and told the polytheists the truth. This is all one example from the Bible itself.

Moreover, the Bible is found is several version. Which one should I believe in? It does not say anywhere in the Bible that I should believe in 66 books, or 73, or more. That is why there are so many sects within Christianity. Regarding sects within Islam, they are formed from false claims, but we all believe in one Qur'an. And it is clear what we should believe.

[Qur'an 4:82] "Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy."

The Qur'an challenges any soul to find one single hole in it. It even says that other religious books have inconsistencies, because they are not from God. Anybody can accept this challenge, but nobody will ever pass it.

Besides all this, Muslims believe in Jesus. Jesus said that we must worship nobody but the only God.

Because your on the wrong side.
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/23/2009 8:13:30 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Your not the religion according to Gods revelation to Prophet Moses.
For Muslims, he is a prophet of Islam and the ancestor of Muhammad through his other son Ishmael.
Not the favorite Isaac.

Ishmael or Isaac.

Ishmael is born of Sarah's handmaiden Hagar.
Isaac was the only son Abraham had with his wife Sarah.

His real wife, and was his favorite.

It is as if Isaac descendants came from the cool liked kid and Ishmael descendants are the losers.

So muslims hate on the jews and Jesus, "oh, muhammad is better, he talked to god" sounds like the Mormons.
Which sound crazy.
USAPitBull63
Posts: 668
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/24/2009 1:16:22 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/23/2009 5:13:48 PM, Mirza wrote:

What I don't understand is why Christians don't believe in the Qur'an.

They're not Muslims (peace be with you).

Besides all this, Muslims believe in Jesus. Jesus said that we must worship nobody but the only God.

(1) Okay. So Christians should believe in Muhammad (let alone as the "one true God") just to "return the favor," so to speak? This seems an illogical expectation.

(2) But Jesus did not identify that "only God" as the prophet Muhammad. If your counterargument is that he also didn't specifically speak against the name (Muhammad) either, the interpretation is, at best, based on ambiguity.

I don't want to argue with you. I want to discuss properly. If there is any reason for a Muslim to convert to Christianity, then mention it.

Because (s)he wants to.

At 12/23/2009 7:55:58 PM, omelet wrote:

[R]eligion is based on faith rather than evidence, and so it is not an unwillingness to accept evidence that prevents atheists from converting.

I'm glad you acknowledge this fact. My issue with the vast majority of religious "debates" between theists and atheists stems from not understanding this basic premise---on both sides.

While it's somewhat more forgivable for theists (because encouraging conversion is a tenet of many religions, even if it goes against logic), even atheists fall for the faulty premise that religion should not be believed because empirical evidence contradicts faith-based conclusions, etc. It's circular.

This fact, as you stated it, also explains why most theists maintain faith in their religions despite any "evidence" against their religious institution's logic, reason, rationale, and/or historical accuracy.
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/24/2009 7:49:49 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/23/2009 5:13:48 PM, Mirza wrote:

Besides all this, Muslims believe in Jesus. Jesus said that we must worship nobody but the only God.

Christians also believe in Abraham.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Chrysippus
Posts: 2,173
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/28/2009 12:06:25 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/23/2009 5:13:48 PM, Mirza wrote:
There are various Christians on this site, and around the world, who constantly try to bash the Qur'an, merely because it says something different to what the Bible says.


Sadly, there are. I am not one of them; I'm taking your challenge, but not to bash the Qur'an.

I don't want to argue with you. I want to discuss properly.

Same here.

If there is any reason for a Muslim to convert to Christianity, then mention it.

The only legitimate reason to convert to any religion, be it Christianity, Islam, Norse Paganism, or Atheism; is because you sincerely believe it is true.

If somehow someone convinces you that Christianity is true, and Islam false, then you would have a legitimate reason to convert.

I can tell you why I'm not a Muslim, if you want to know my reasoning; but I cannot prove to you that I am right. Had I proof, it would not be a matter of faith.

The same goes for you. You undoubtedly have full sufficient reason to be a Muslim, but you cannot give me proof that you are right.

"Faith is the substance of things hoped for; the evidence of things not seen." -Hebrews 11:1

Our religions are based on faith in the mystic premise of a Spiritual existence; we both hope for the unprovable resurrection from the dead; we both wait for the revealing to a secular world of a transcendent God.

Problem is, we disagree on who He is.

Taking these in order:
What I don't understand is why Christians don't believe in the Qur'an. First of all, the Bible never said that it is the last revelation from God.

You are right in this. The Bible does not say that revelation stopped at Patmos; however, the understanding of orthodox Christianity is that any revelation from God will be consistent with His previous words. As I explain below, the Qur'an is not.

Second of all, Jesus (peace be upon him) himself has said that there will be a messenger after him, and explained detailed about Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). For instance, he said that he will be like unto Moses (peace be upon him), and Moses was a king, and died a natural death. Prophet Muhammad was a king too, and he died a natural death. They both had parents, Jesus only had a mother. Both had children. Moreover, the Bible says that there will be "ten thousands of saints" who will go and execute judgment upon a people [polytheists] who do ungodly acts. When the Muslims conquered Mecca, they were 10,000, and they spread the message of monotheism and told the polytheists the truth. This is all one example from the Bible itself.

I would like to know where Jesus taught these things, as I do not recall such a passage. If you have a reference or two, I would appreciate having them.

According to my understanding of the Bible,
a) Moses was not a king, but rather a prophet leader.

Moses did not found a dynasty of leaders (Muhammad did, through his male relatives); he did not create a capital city for his followers to worship at (Mohammad did); and he didn't ascend into heaven. According to Islam, Mohammad did.

Through the power of God, Moses turned the longest river in the world into blood, plunged hundreds of square miles of land into thick darkness for three days, and parted the Red Sea wide enough for close to a million Jews to pass through. I have not read the Qur'an, but I do not remember reading of Muhammad causing any such events. If he did, let me know.

b) Jesus was not just a prophet.

See, this is where we disagree the most. The bedrock of Christianity, our main teaching, our hope and faith, is this: Jesus Christ is both man and God, both creation and Creator, the mediator between fallen man and most Holy Father.

If you are right, and He was just a prophet, then He was a liar.

Mark 14:61,62 "...Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
And Jesus said, I am: and all of you shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven."

John 20:28,29 "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.
Jesus says unto him, Thomas, because you have seen me, you have believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."

Also, Matthew chapters 24 and 25.

If Jesus is not God Himself, then He is a liar, not a prophet.

If Jesus is not a prophet, then neither of our religions can be trusted, for they both claim him to have been a prophet.

If the Bible has been altered to put those claims into His mouth, what would keep the same from being true about the verses that seem to support the Qur'an?

Jesus promised to come again at the end in Matthew 25:31-46, but this does not seem to match the events of Muhammad's life. Also, the method of his arrival is specified in Revelation 19:11-21, and does not match Muhammad's life at all.

In other words, you cannot have it both ways. The Bible cannot support Islam without being false in many of its teachings; indeed, it would need to be chopped into carefully selected pieces to avoid contradicting the Qur'an. The Qur'an has to stand by itself; however, it references the Bible as true, and depends on the Old Testament in particular to be true.

If the Bible is false, so is Islam. Yet, if the Bible is true about Jesus, Islam cannot be right.

Moreover, the Bible is found is several version. Which one should I believe in? It does not say anywhere in the Bible that I should believe in 66 books, or 73, or more. That is why there are so many sects within Christianity. Regarding sects within Islam, they are formed from false claims, but we all believe in one Qur'an. And it is clear what we should believe.

The sects of Christianity do not stem from the number of books included in the Canon; they come from the holy things of God being entrusted to sinful human hands for 2000 years. It is our shame that so many have been "members" of the church because it was socially expedient, without the slightest thought of following Christ or His great commandment: to love one another.

In the end, the question is not whether you should believe the Apocrypha or not; the question is whether you should believe the Bible at all, in any of its configurations?

If orthodox Christianity is right, the Bible consists of the 66 books of the old and new testaments; these are the ones recognized as inspired by God. The Apocrypha is not considered so by any major branch of Christendom.

[Qur'an 4:82] "Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy."

The Qur'an challenges any soul to find one single hole in it. It even says that other religious books have inconsistencies, because they are not from God. Anybody can accept this challenge, but nobody will ever pass it.

I do not know enough about the Qur'an to argue about any inconsistencies in it; the only one I care about is its treatment of Jesus.

Besides all this, Muslims believe in Jesus. Jesus said that we must worship nobody but the only God.

Yet Jesus accepted worship himself, according to the Bible. There is a fundamental contradiction here.

PM me if you want to continue this; I'll be back in about a week. I look forward to discussing this with you, away from the hecklers.
Cavete mea inexorabilis legiones mimus!
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/28/2009 3:03:33 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I suppose every forum needs a pro-Muslim troll to balance the inevitable anti-Muslim troll.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/29/2009 3:38:59 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/28/2009 3:03:33 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
I suppose every forum needs a pro-Muslim troll to balance the inevitable anti-Muslim troll.

He has been on but never responded.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/29/2009 3:47:10 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/23/2009 7:55:58 PM, omelet wrote:
I agree, and I agree with the same reasoning being applied to the Qu'ran. I don't take either book to be a source of absolute truth, since there is no rational basis to do either.
The point is that there is one Qur'an, so you either believe in it or not. But with regards to the Bible, you either believe in 66 books, 73 books, or how many others there are.

Then why did you ask?
Besides saying that Bible says this and that, I want to know what the other reasons are.

Stating something as fact does not make it fact. Nice naked assertion. Just because you think the Qu'ran is a last revelation from God does not make it fact.
I'm saying that the Bible itself does not say it is the last revelation from God, but the Qur'an does, so I do not believe in other religious books, but a Christian can move to something similar to his, merely because the Bible does not give itself the credit of being the lst revelation of God.

This is why people don't think you're intelligent. If you want to prove that your prophet was in the bible, you're going to need a source from the Bible that shows just that.
I don't care about who thinks I'm intelligent or not. Besides, intelligence is not the same as knowledge. You can be exremely intelligent yet ignorant.

And I did come with sources from the Bible. I even referred to a website where you can read much more about it.

http://www.islamicity.com...

There are direct quotes from the Bible.

Which one should we believe in? Neither. Of course, we shouldn't accept the Qu'ran as truth whether or not I've made an edited version with an extra chapter.
You don't get my point. I'm saying that if you want to be a Muslim, you clearly known that you should believe in the Qur'an, and there's only one version. However, if you want to be a Christian, the question is which version of the Bible is right? There is one Qur'an, and many different Bibles, yet none of the Bible say, "This is a book of 66 lesser books" or anything similar.

Your one book has many interpretations. "The truth" is not well-laid-out - it's ambiguous. Guess God wasn't that great at writing.
The Qur'an is easy to understand. While not all people understand it, if you know Arabic and read it properly, there's nothing to misunderstand. Besides, there are different interpretations of every single thing; that's normal.

No. If you have evidence, I will take a look. My position is that the Qu'ran and all holy books are works of fiction.
I do have evidence, but this is not what we're discussing right here. And I cannot believe that all existing things, so precisely functioning, like the plants being dependent on animals and humans, and vice versa, the sun giving life to everything, the rain and snow cooling things etc. It's so advanced and complicated that I absolutely cannot believe that there was no being who created all this for a purpose. Wherever you look, everything is perfect. The planet, the universe, everything inside them, and so forth.

Besides, even Atheism does not have an answer on when it all began. Not regarding time, but how come everything is here, and why? And if you just travel as fast as you want, will you ever come to and end? Isn't there and ending to everything that exists? These kind of questions are yet to be answered, and no Atheist has a clue about it. Nevertheless, it still makes more sense to you, while Islam/Creationism makes more sense to me.

It doesn't. However, religion is based on faith rather than evidence, and so it is not an unwillingness to accept evidence that prevents atheists from converting.
Yes but there are certain proofs of the unseen. Like with air, it is invisible, yet we know it's there because we can feel it, and we know its effects. Similarly, we cannot see God, but some of us can feel that He is existing, especially by looking at the precision of everything.

The bible portrays him as much more than a prophet, especially in the Gospel of John. Many of the stories in the Bible do not match up with their Qu'ranic equivalents. The Qu'ran and the Bible contradict each other on the issue of Jesus. This of course isn't a problem for me, since works of fiction are allowed to contradict each other.
The first of the gospels describes him as a normal human being who is sent by God, but the more we move on, the more we see his rank being promoted, but none of the gospels say that he is divine. Instead they point out that he is a man sent by God who spreads the message of truth.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/29/2009 5:51:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/28/2009 12:06:25 AM, Chrysippus wrote:
The only legitimate reason to convert to any religion, be it Christianity, Islam, Norse Paganism, or Atheism; is because you sincerely believe it is true.
It would be simple reasoning, but that is not the case with every religion. If any religious book was like the Qur'an, I would be in doubt of which one to believe. But none of them is like it, but the Bible is similar.

If somehow someone convinces you that Christianity is true, and Islam false, then you would have a legitimate reason to convert.
The point is that I haven't heard anything convincing from any Christian. And I know much of the Bible myself, and haven't seen anything convincing.

I can tell you why I'm not a Muslim, if you want to know my reasoning; but I cannot prove to you that I am right. Had I proof, it would not be a matter of faith.
Alright, I want to know.

The same goes for you. You undoubtedly have full sufficient reason to be a Muslim, but you cannot give me proof that you are right.

"Faith is the substance of things hoped for; the evidence of things not seen." -Hebrews 11:1
I can give you what I consider being proof, but that is not necessarily proof to you. We can discuss this over PM, as I've made many posts about this.

Our religions are based on faith in the mystic premise of a Spiritual existence; we both hope for the unprovable resurrection from the dead; we both wait for the revealing to a secular world of a transcendent God.

Problem is, we disagree on who He is.
We do agree that there is one God. What you and I do not agree on is regarding Jesus. But we can discuss that.

You are right in this. The Bible does not say that revelation stopped at Patmos; however, the understanding of orthodox Christianity is that any revelation from God will be consistent with His previous words. As I explain below, the Qur'an is not.
The Old and New Testaments are not in full agreement with each other, yet you don't think that the Old Testament is false, rather God sent a new scripture. But the Qur'an confirms both of them, just not the current ones. And the Bible does not say that it will be preserved either.

I would like to know where Jesus taught these things, as I do not recall such a passage. If you have a reference or two, I would appreciate having them.
I can make larger arguments via PM, but here is a link [there's 8,000 character limitation, that's why]: http://www.ummah.net...

According to my understanding of the Bible,
a) Moses was not a king, but rather a prophet leader.
Both Moses and Muhammad (peace be upon them) were kings.

Moses did not found a dynasty of leaders (Muhammad did, through his male relatives); he did not create a capital city for his followers to worship at (Mohammad did); and he didn't ascend into heaven. According to Islam, Mohammad did.
Moses and Mohammad were more alike than any other prophets. They were leaders, they were always victorious in miraculous ways in the battlefields, both were recognized as prophets, both were born naturally, and both died naturally.

Through the power of God, Moses turned the longest river in the world into blood, plunged hundreds of square miles of land into thick darkness for three days, and parted the Red Sea wide enough for close to a million Jews to pass through. I have not read the Qur'an, but I do not remember reading of Muhammad causing any such events. If he did, let me know.
This means that Moses did miraculous things, which Mohammad also did. They did not necessarily do all the same things, but of course they did much similar in general.

If you read the Qur'an, you'll realize how God helped the beloved prophet in many battles, just as miraculously as he helped moses.

b) Jesus was not just a prophet.

See, this is where we disagree the most. The bedrock of Christianity, our main teaching, our hope and faith, is this: Jesus Christ is both man and God, both creation and Creator, the mediator between fallen man and most Holy Father.

If you are right, and He was just a prophet, then He was a liar.
We can discuss this. Regarding the verses below, for example when Thomas says "Lord...", this does not mean that he called Jesus "Lord", rather he was surprised because he thought Jesus was dead.

Mark 14:61,62 "...Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
And Jesus said, I am: and all of you shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven."
[~snip]
There are different words in Hebrew and Greek for worship. Some mean bowing in worship, and others mean bowing as doing something respectful.

But as I said, we can discuss this topic. Over PM if you wish.

If Jesus is not a prophet, then neither of our religions can be trusted, for they both claim him to have been a prophet.
No because what Jesus says in the Qur'an does not contradict the Qur'anic message.

If the Bible has been altered to put those claims into His mouth, what would keep the same from being true about the verses that seem to support the Qur'an?
It would be illogical that Christians would alter the Bible for the sake of Islam. But if it were the case, then the fact that the Bible has been altered itself proves that it is inauthentic.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/29/2009 5:52:00 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/28/2009 12:06:25 AM, Chrysippus wrote:
Jesus promised to come again at the end in Matthew 25:31-46, but this does not seem to match the events of Muhammad's life. Also, the method of his arrival is specified in Revelation 19:11-21, and does not match Muhammad's life at all.
You're mistaking Moses with Jesus here. I didn't say Mohammad was like unto Jesus, but Moses. Muslims also believe that Jesus will return, but not Moses or Mohammad.

In other words, you cannot have it both ways. The Bible cannot support Islam without being false in many of its teachings; indeed, it would need to be chopped into carefully selected pieces to avoid contradicting the Qur'an. The Qur'an has to stand by itself; however, it references the Bible as true, and depends on the Old Testament in particular to be true.
The Qur'an does not depend on any other book. It does not rely on the Old Testament at all. It stands for itself, but it gives us some signs about things mentioned in other scriptures that are Islamic.

While the Bible cannot support Islam in everything, it can support the main message. And if you believe that the Bible has been altered, although what is important is the ultimate message, then you don't have to rely on other things, but the ultimate message itself, which is to submit to God. And Islam itself means "submission to God", so you wouldn't disobey the ultimate message of the Bible at all.

If the Bible is false, so is Islam. Yet, if the Bible is true about Jesus, Islam cannot be right.
If the Bible is false, then period. It has nothing to do with Islam, actually. The Bible Qur'an mentions it the original one, which God did not promise to guard. However, He did promise to guard the Qur'an, and that's why all Muslims around the world do not have disputes about any "version" of the Qur'an.

The sects of Christianity do not stem from the number of books included in the Canon; they come from the holy things of God being entrusted to sinful human hands for 2000 years. It is our shame that so many have been "members" of the church because it was socially expedient, without the slightest thought of following Christ or His great commandment: to love one another.
See, the ultimate message is important, right? Whether you believe in 66 books or 73, you must believe in the right message.

In the end, the question is not whether you should believe the Apocrypha or not; the question is whether you should believe the Bible at all, in any of its configurations?
I do believe in the main message, and the beautiful preachings. But I do not rely on it, nor does the Qur'an. What is not in conflict with the Qur'an, and what matches the Qur'an's teachings; that is fine.

I do not know enough about the Qur'an to argue about any inconsistencies in it; the only one I care about is its treatment of Jesus.
Jesus (peace be upon him) was one of God's greatest messengers. If a person does not believe in Jesus, he cannot be a Muslim. Jesus is in our religion a great prophet without a father, but he was not the son of God, nor God himself.This is where you should ask, "Well in the Bible Jesus says this, in Qur'an he says that, what is true?" -- If we have two sources, and one is inauthentic, the other one is authentic, then which one is reliable? Indeed the authentic one. Even in the Bible Jesus never said that we should worship him. Rather he said that God is greater than him and everybody else.

Also, God is the Most Wise, therefore he knows everything. In Mark 24:36, it is mentioned that nobody knows about the appointment of the Day of Judgement, not the angels, nor the Son (Jesus), but only the Father (God). What's interesting here is that some versions of the Bible do not have "the Son" in the verse. Can you see, what should you rely on? Isn't it obvious that somebody removed "the Son" as to make it look like Jesus too knows everything?

Yet Jesus accepted worship himself, according to the Bible. There is a fundamental contradiction here.
This is what priests usually say, but there's not one single verse in the Bible here Jesus says that he wants to be worshiped.

PM me if you want to continue this; I'll be back in about a week. I look forward to discussing this with you, away from the hecklers.
Alright.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/29/2009 5:54:00 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/23/2009 8:13:30 PM, comoncents wrote:
So muslims hate on the jews and Jesus, "oh, muhammad is better, he talked to god" sounds like the Mormons.
Which sound crazy.
Fortunately we are not allowed to hate anyone.

And saying that Mohammad was better than Jesus is not Islamic. They were both God's messengers, and are fully respected by Muslims.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/29/2009 5:56:10 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
(1) Okay. So Christians should believe in Muhammad (let alone as the "one true God") just to "return the favor," so to speak? This seems an illogical expectation.

As far as I know Muslims don't believe Muhammad was ever a god. Just a prophet.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/29/2009 5:59:46 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/29/2009 5:56:10 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
(1) Okay. So Christians should believe in Muhammad (let alone as the "one true God") just to "return the favor," so to speak? This seems an illogical expectation.

As far as I know Muslims don't believe Muhammad was ever a god. Just a prophet.

They don't. Also, I actually think it's slightly disrespectful to refer to Jesus as "god". He never wanted to be worshipped. He wasn't a "Christian".
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/29/2009 6:03:32 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/29/2009 5:56:10 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
As far as I know Muslims don't believe Muhammad was ever a god. Just a prophet.
Yes that's correct. He was nothing but a messenger of God.

[Qur'an 21:107] "We sent thee not, but as a Mercy for all creatures.