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How I would run a typical class (8th grade +)

ben2974
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10/19/2013 3:35:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I'm 20 years old. I've gone through 12 years of grade school and over 2 years of college. I am an individual who was and still is (to a lesser extent) hardly impressed with academia but is someone who understands that doing well in school is important for your future success in society, whether you like it or not. I feel like I know what students need in order to succeed and even in order to create student interest in the subject(s). I've got the feeling that I know some important methods to run the most productive classroom in terms of leaving the student with the most retention of knowledge, and perhaps better grades, too. My idea focuses on getting the most out of a class, not necessarily the grade one comes out with; however, I do believe that my ideas work together to encourage higher scores and better retention of knowledge.

I think i'll just bullet point. If you question one or more points, i'll be able to give explanations.

* Always cumulative exams. Decrease cumulative value of exams.
* Increase cumulative value of participation.
* On EVERY assignment that involves reading and retention of concepts and/or facts, provide a quiz the following day to test the students on what was covered. Provide time prior to quiz for students to ask questions related to the reading(s). Adjust difficulty of quiz (or scoring) according to student performance.
* Increase cumulative value for quizzes (equal to exams, for example)
* Provide incentive to come to class on time: credit system. No penalties for being 1-9 minutes late. If on time, provide a credit. 1 percentage point to quiz grade every x times student is on-time. (Variable "x" is dependent on frequency of quizzes and thus the amount of reading assignments).
* written assignments graded on accuracy but on a partial credit system. For example, student must demonstrate competency in concepts A, B, and C. If C is incorrect or partially incorrect, reduce points only for however much was missed. e.g, all of C = 30% off and half of C = 15% off whole assignment ==> 70% or 85% on assignment.
* Provide optional extra-credit assignment/quizzes individually tailored to address student weakness (for instance, concept C) after exams, written assignments, and other things of this caliber. All or nothing. If all, provide student with half credit of whatever was missed in the grade. e.g, if Student lost 15% off from concept C, allow student to gain 7.5% back if student perfects the extra-credit. If imperfect, no extra credit is given.
* Provide bonus questions to each exam. Can be relevant to exam material or irrelevant.
* Provide application wherever and whenever possible. Assignments that would require students to make use of the information learned and apply to the real-world will entail projects, research essays, lab studies, etc.
* Real world application will be used in daily teaching routines to provide relevancy for the students. Videos, labs, current events (news), etc

I think I had more ideas but I can't remember them. In a typical class subject, I would apply all of these. In non-typical classes, I'd apply all when applicable. The point is to release tension from the student and encourage the student to want to learn. The grading system I propose is radically different than the typical grading system used in most schools (of those that i'm aware of); the grading scale is spread out to apply consistent - but reasonable - pressure on the student.

What do you think? Give your ideas, too!
Logic_on_rails
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10/30/2013 12:37:19 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I had plans to make a big, long critique awhile back, but other matters took hold, and I can't be bothered now either... Some previously typed points:

'Bonus questions to each exam' ? How would this work in the higher years? In the earlier years of schooling perfect exam performance means less to long term success, and so stretching students may be good. However, if the questions aren't part of the mark (and how could they be, otherwise it's just a longer test...) then there's no way anybody will do them. If I have 2 hours to write 3 essays, each about 5 pages, then I'm probably not going to do an extra essay... Your sentiments are noble, yet require a greater reworking of the educational system.

On quizzes, there's a double bind. If multiple choice you're providing the cues for the students (familiarity vs. recollection) , which is not an optimal test environment. If you raise the complexity to short answer or multiple paragraphs then your teacher has got quite a bit to mark... Quizzes and exam practice are actually a good idea, but I don't like giving them weighting...

I suppose what I'm saying is that some of your ideas require wider reaching reforms. I'd get into marking schemes, school hours, memory retention and so on, but... I'm busy, and you can check debates of mine on the subjects. If you wish, pick a reform you've outlined here and I might hold you to a debate on the subject in a month's time.
"Tis not in mortals to command success
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ben2974
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10/30/2013 9:47:09 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/30/2013 12:37:19 AM, Logic_on_rails wrote:
I had plans to make a big, long critique awhile back, but other matters took hold, and I can't be bothered now either... Some previously typed points:

'Bonus questions to each exam' ? How would this work in the higher years? In the earlier years of schooling perfect exam performance means less to long term success, and so stretching students may be good. However, if the questions aren't part of the mark (and how could they be, otherwise it's just a longer test...) then there's no way anybody will do them. If I have 2 hours to write 3 essays, each about 5 pages, then I'm probably not going to do an extra essay... Your sentiments are noble, yet require a greater reworking of the educational system.

On quizzes, there's a double bind. If multiple choice you're providing the cues for the students (familiarity vs. recollection) , which is not an optimal test environment. If you raise the complexity to short answer or multiple paragraphs then your teacher has got quite a bit to mark... Quizzes and exam practice are actually a good idea, but I don't like giving them weighting...

I suppose what I'm saying is that some of your ideas require wider reaching reforms. I'd get into marking schemes, school hours, memory retention and so on, but... I'm busy, and you can check debates of mine on the subjects. If you wish, pick a reform you've outlined here and I might hold you to a debate on the subject in a month's time.

I skimmed some of the topics of your debates and you definitely have interest in the subject lol (recess for homework, unknown tests dates)
I'd rather simply reply here and make for relaxed discussion than in a debate :p here you can respond whenever you want haha

Anyway, to address the points you made:

Whatever the format of the bonus question, the question is a bonus question! And the format of the bonus question does not have to be congruent with the general format of the exam. It could be a multichoice question(s) in an essay test or short answer(s) on a multiple choice test (not that I would ever give a solely MCQ exam anyway). They cannot impact your scores negatively. If every student has access to the same questions, I don't see a problem implementing this. It's simply a way to help with your grade. If anything, i'd probably revise what I said about offtopic bonus questions.

The idea of having a quiz after every assignment is to enforce homework on the students. Knowing that you will be quickly tested on the material found within the homework will encourage students to do their homework and even take notes (for higher retention and/or to ask questions in class the following day before the quiz). So not only are you benefiting more so because of the fact that you are going to actively and continuously engage with the material presented to you, you are also going to be quickly tested to fortify what you've already learned. With the quizzes having a heavier weight, students will be reluctant to concede to "skimming" assignments or not doing them at all. But of course that sounds a bit too harsh for the student -- too stressful and perhaps overbearing. So I simply propose to provide leniency to the quizzes with performance adjustments and credits (discussed in the OP).

You are right, though. Probably a reason why these ideas are not put into practice is because they are too time consuming and require a lot of effort by the faculty. And considering the pay wages, there may not be incentive to go to such lengths. Of course I don't believe these to be valid excuses. Anyway, I simply wanted to make a case for "best possible," or optimal. I'm not looking for what's viable.
darkkermit
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10/30/2013 9:57:45 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Sounds like a lot of work for grading that teachers don't have.

And lets be honest, almost everything you learn in high school is useless. You already learn basic arithmetic and reading in elementary school. If it was useful, you wouldn't need to have cumulative tests in order to retain the facts. Working with the information often would cause you to retain the fact.

Education is merely a marketing signal and very little human capital is actually developed. So it doesn't matter if they retained the facts.
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ben2974
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10/30/2013 12:58:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/30/2013 9:57:45 AM, darkkermit wrote:
Sounds like a lot of work for grading that teachers don't have.

And lets be honest, almost everything you learn in high school is useless. You already learn basic arithmetic and reading in elementary school. If it was useful, you wouldn't need to have cumulative tests in order to retain the facts. Working with the information often would cause you to retain the fact.

Education is merely a marketing signal and very little human capital is actually developed. So it doesn't matter if they retained the facts.

One of my biggest problems (as i'm sure for many other students as well) that I had - and still have, but to a lesser extent in college - is the idea of application. You said it well: "working with the information." It does not mean that what you learn is not useful. It only means that there is no incentive to learn what is taught in class. This is because students cannot relate to the material being taught since they are not of age to apply what they are being taught. They ask themselves why in the world do they have to go to such lengths to retain information that they find no use for.

The things you are taught in high school aren't useless. What is taught is elementary and/or intermediate information that is required as part of the building blocks to a successful ascension to careers. Also, a lot of courses taken are intended to promote well-rounded education that serve as base knowledge to help you navigate fundamentally in the real world, and, like you say, serve as a marketing tool to help students find their paths.

P.S,
are you suggesting that students shouldn't be graded in grade school?
Logic_on_rails
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10/31/2013 12:53:46 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/30/2013 9:47:09 AM, ben2974 wrote:

I skimmed some of the topics of your debates and you definitely have interest in the subject lol (recess for homework, unknown tests dates)
I'd rather simply reply here and make for relaxed discussion than in a debate :p here you can respond whenever you want haha

I had more time awhile back to spend debating these topics! While I spend time pontificating on memory retention and it's importance, debates are different to casual chats. Let's talk here then.

Anyway, to address the points you made:

The idea of having a quiz after every assignment is to enforce homework on the students. Knowing that you will be quickly tested on the material found within the homework will encourage students to do their homework and even take notes (for higher retention and/or to ask questions in class the following day before the quiz). So not only are you benefiting more so because of the fact that you are going to actively and continuously engage with the material presented to you, you are also going to be quickly tested to fortify what you've already learned. With the quizzes having a heavier weight, students will be reluctant to concede to "skimming" assignments or not doing them at all. But of course that sounds a bit too harsh for the student -- too stressful and perhaps overbearing. So I simply propose to provide leniency to the quizzes with performance adjustments and credits (discussed in the OP).

I think that what ought to be eliminated is the marking aspect, funnily enough. Quizzes, and practice examination questions tend to be rather good at triggering memory retention, but the mark is not really required... When I write in my own notebook for outside school study of my own, I'm effectively writing 'explain...' and 'evaluate the significance of...' constantly, though I'm not marking it. I think a compromise would be to have teachers mark quizzes on a random basis - sometimes just a few from a class, perhaps mark 1 out of 3... you then retain the 'marking incentive' and reduce the workload. Really though, there's always an aspect to which the student ought to be revising in their own way. Ostensibly, that's what homework is for. Of course, we've all seen awfully designed homework, although I tend to find that that trend has decreased as one gets older in education. I think that designing superior homework materials, where homework is required, would go a long way.

You are right, though. Probably a reason why these ideas are not put into practice is because they are too time consuming and require a lot of effort by the faculty. And considering the pay wages, there may not be incentive to go to such lengths. Of course I don't believe these to be valid excuses. Anyway, I simply wanted to make a case for "best possible," or optimal. I'm not looking for what's viable.

Pay is something that requires fixing... but that's quite a significant matter to address. Improving teacher quality will lead to greater student engagement... there's a whole host of ways this could be done.

Just quickly, on application, how would you do that all the time? For instance, simultaneous equations are taught at a year 8 level, but the implications with regards to curves and problem solving tends not to occur until, say, a year 10 level. Does application mean a digression in some cases? This is a classic case of some things being desirable to teach, yet difficult to fully convey the benefits to youth.
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
Logic_on_rails
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10/31/2013 1:09:46 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/30/2013 9:57:45 AM, darkkermit wrote:

And lets be honest, almost everything you learn in high school is useless. You already learn basic arithmetic and reading in elementary school. If it was useful, you wouldn't need to have cumulative tests in order to retain the facts. Working with the information often would cause you to retain the fact.

Ah, let's have some fun. I'm curious to see an elaboration of your thoughts.

Working with information may help one retain facts to a higher extent, but there's still limits on the no. items which people can remember at a given time. Of course, chaining multiple items into 1 item (like an explanation) is a partial solution, but the limit remains. Combined with the forgetting curve, it seems foolhardy to suggest actually not revising at regular intervals.

May I ask, how would you reform high school considering you consider it rather useless? What subjects would be cut, what would be added, etc.

Education is merely a marketing signal and very little human capital is actually developed. So it doesn't matter if they retained the facts.

Education certainly isn't designed as a marketing signal. I'm highly sceptical of the idea that graduating high school is much of a signal - about 80-85% currently do so in my state I think. Also, if education doesn't add human capital then why does additional education tend to correlate with higher wages and such? Furthermore, regardless of whether human capital is developed, one aim ought to be to develop it. Part of this is obviously memory retention. Not all of education ought to be focused on memory retention however.

Let me ask - what is the aim of education to you? Or rather, are there multiple aims?

Humour me - what is history? What should we try to achieve in teaching history? I'd be interested to see your views on this in particular.
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
darkkermit
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11/1/2013 12:25:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/31/2013 1:09:46 AM, Logic_on_rails wrote:
At 10/30/2013 9:57:45 AM, darkkermit wrote:

And lets be honest, almost everything you learn in high school is useless. You already learn basic arithmetic and reading in elementary school. If it was useful, you wouldn't need to have cumulative tests in order to retain the facts. Working with the information often would cause you to retain the fact.

Ah, let's have some fun. I'm curious to see an elaboration of your thoughts.

Working with information may help one retain facts to a higher extent, but there's still limits on the no. items which people can remember at a given time. Of course, chaining multiple items into 1 item (like an explanation) is a partial solution, but the limit remains. Combined with the forgetting curve, it seems foolhardy to suggest actually not revising at regular intervals.

My point is that you learn through repetitive use, which is what you and I both agree on as well. If you use the information repetitively in day-to-day life then it will be memorized. However, if you don't use it, you'll lose it. Most information you learn in education isn't used in day-to-day life so it will be lost easily. Furthermore, even if one designs a curriculum based on interval learning, one will eventually lose the information either after leaving the class or school itself. However, the information is unnecessary anyways, so there's no need to worry.

May I ask, how would you reform high school considering you consider it rather useless? What subjects would be cut, what would be added, etc.

Education is merely a marketing signal and very little human capital is actually developed. So it doesn't matter if they retained the facts.

Education certainly isn't designed as a marketing signal. I'm highly sceptical of the idea that graduating high school is much of a signal - about 80-85% currently do so in my state I think.

Can you clarify what you mean by this?

Also, if education doesn't add human capital then why does additional education tend to correlate with higher wages and such? Furthermore, regardless of whether human capital is developed, one aim ought to be to develop it. Part of this is obviously memory retention. Not all of education ought to be focused on memory retention however.

a) Correlation does not mean causation. Wealthy nations can simply afford to pay for education.
b) Just because its used as a marketing signal, namely to show employers that you are a good worker and intelligent, doesn't mean it doesn't affect output. There's a theory in economics known as O-ring theory. The bases is that one wants to have better workers in industries that are higher tech and more complex. The result will maximize output. So even if no human capital is developed, that doesn't mean it doesn't have an effect on output.
c) I'm not sure if you meant wealthy nations are positively correlated with education, or individuals wealth is highly correlated with education. In any event, I just said that education causes one to have a higher education since it acts as a signal to employers that one has high intelligence and is a good worker.

Let me ask - what is the aim of education to you? Or rather, are there multiple aims?

I'm an educational nihilist. I don't hold that institutions are inherent purposeful or have specific aims. Schools are one of them. I'd say they exist though because teachers and school administration are dependent on them for wages and the general public supports funding for schools, so they exist. However, this is not proof that they hold any value.

Humour me - what is history? What should we try to achieve in teaching history? I'd be interested to see your views on this in particular.

Why should history be taught in general? It has very little usefulness in day to day life.

There are a few justifications one can use to study history:

a) To learn from history.

Now there are two problems with this. One is that history isn't a controlled experiment like in the hard science. Therefore it is difficult to prove any causation or to learn from it, since there are too many variables that affected either the negative or positive results from history. So rather then learn from history, false narratives can be created based on what one "learned" from history. Cherry-picking historic events and confirmation bias can easily be created. I often hear history books discuss "causes" of certain historic events, when in reality it's very difficult to determine the actual cause.

Second if you are looking for empirical evidence on a certain phenomena. For example, maybe you're looking at the effects of a gold standard vs. fiat money. Well one doesn't have to study history in order to do this. That's because there's
a) Too much history and data on the subject that it would be impossible to memorize it all.
b) it's fairly easy to do a google search on this, and you'll see data already compiled on it.

So as far as I can tell, there is no real reason to learn history, and it can even have a negative effect on one's critical thinking skills and understanding of how the world works.
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Logic_on_rails
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11/2/2013 4:36:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Our discussion is taking up some space, so I've ignored some previous conversation and some points. Having a broad ranging discussion necessarily limits it's depth...

At 11/1/2013 12:25:47 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 10/31/2013 1:09:46 AM, Logic_on_rails wrote:
At 10/30/2013 9:57:45 AM, darkkermit wrote:

I agree that the lack of application can cause students to forget information. 2 questions arise. One, are there other things we want to 'learn' as opposed to the mere retention of knowledge? Two, do we wish to give students more knowledge than they will need in any individual occupation so as to broaden their job prospects?


Retention rates of students throughout high school are actually 70.7% (peaked at 73% in 2011) statewide. The area I'm in is either 85 or 90% retention though (depending on their classifications) . Furthermore, retention rates, for all students, have increased about 6% over the past 5 years. What this means is that education, at a high school level, is becoming a much weaker signal.

Also, if education doesn't add human capital then why does additional education tend to correlate with higher wages and such? Furthermore, regardless of whether human capital is developed, one aim ought to be to develop it. Part of this is obviously memory retention. Not all of education ought to be focused on memory retention however.

a) Correlation does not mean causation. Wealthy nations can simply afford to pay for education.
b) Just because its used as a marketing signal, namely to show employers that you are a good worker and intelligent, doesn't mean it doesn't affect output. There's a theory in economics known as O-ring theory. The bases is that one wants to have better workers in industries that are higher tech and more complex. The result will maximize output. So even if no human capital is developed, that doesn't mean it doesn't have an effect on output.
c) I'm not sure if you meant wealthy nations are positively correlated with education, or individuals wealth is highly correlated with education. In any event, I just said that education causes one to have a higher education since it acts as a signal to employers that one has high intelligence and is a good worker.


Let me ask - what is the aim of education to you? Or rather, are there multiple aims?

I'm an educational nihilist. I don't hold that institutions are inherent purposeful or have specific aims. Schools are one of them. I'd say they exist though because teachers and school administration are dependent on them for wages and the general public supports funding for schools, so they exist. However, this is not proof that they hold any value.


Humour me - what is history? What should we try to achieve in teaching history? I'd be interested to see your views on this in particular.

Why should history be taught in general? It has very little usefulness in day to day life.

There are a few justifications one can use to study history:

a) To learn from history.

Now there are two problems with this. One is that history isn't a controlled experiment like in the hard science. Therefore it is difficult to prove any causation or to learn from it, since there are too many variables that affected either the negative or positive results from history. So rather then learn from history, false narratives can be created based on what one "learned" from history. Cherry-picking historic events and confirmation bias can easily be created. I often hear history books discuss "causes" of certain historic events, when in reality it's very difficult to determine the actual cause.

And a good student ought to be able to recognise that. Marxist historians rely on us expanding our needs for their economic determinism to work. What about ascetics? Also, what if power is diffused in another way than their 'dialectical engagement' ? And of course history books oversimplify. Two questions. One, can investigations which can't prove causation still be beneficial? Two, can there be other benefits besides mere learning... any positive externalities?

Second if you are looking for empirical evidence on a certain phenomena. For example, maybe you're looking at the effects of a gold standard vs. fiat money. Well one doesn't have to study history in order to do this. That's because there's
a) Too much history and data on the subject that it would be impossible to memorize it all.
b) it's fairly easy to do a google search on this, and you'll see data already compiled on it.

I agree that all these issues exist. However, that doesn't preclude history from study. The subject matter of history has useful lessons to teach the present. History also is a very good exercise in debating the extent to which causes occur. Another point - a study of historiography covers far more ground on empiricism than any high school science course. I'm doing a course called history extension at the moment, and we use a university introductory text for most classes. The discussions - to my mind - are poignant. There are issues which must be considered - the effect of the sequencing of facts on the inferences one draws, poststructuralist critiques on our very ability to convey the past through language etc. I'm not saying that one will always reach a true conclusion - though one often will - but the process is extremely useful. Or so I think. History must be pared with rigorous subjects as well.

So as far as I can tell, there is no real reason to learn history, and it can even have a negative effect on one's critical thinking skills and understanding of how the world works.

I could accept the first part of your statement, but negative effects? How so?

I'm getting the firm impression that you'd like to heavily reduce the existing retinue of subjects, down to vocational or professional career leading subjects. The sciences, maths, engineering... am I right? What subjects would you wish to be offered at a high school level? The take-up of those subjects is in decline currently % wise, which is deplorable. But, I do think there is value in the social 'sciences' .

There's a lot of trash in the existing school curriculum. I'd excise that and replace it with things like behavioural economics and such. Basically, increase the intensity of a school education.
"Tis not in mortals to command success
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SloppyJoe6412
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11/14/2013 1:17:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I have been out of college for...ever and I am currently volunteering in a 4th grade, so technically I don't have fresh knowldege of 8th+ grades, but I offer my two cents anyway:

It's the teacher, not the system.

A lively teacher can make the most boring subject seem engaging. And viceversa. The 4th grade teacher I work with is beyond useless, even though the material she works with is a thousand times better than the books I used when I was in 4th grade in the 60s. And since I have plenty of time to observe the kids, I can guarantee they don't give a hoot about the material if the living human working with it is boring.

Unfortunately, really good teachers are hard to find, be it at elementary, high or college level.
unheard
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11/20/2013 4:58:54 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
May I say all your points are ok, but students arn't going to learn if they don't want to.You need to find ways to engage them. One of my teachers once, we were doing averages and all that stuff so he brought a small packet of M&M's for each student, with 8 in a pack. It helped people visually think how to do it and physically, it helped so many students and engaged them. Teachers also need to treat students with a lot more respect and students should do the same with teachers, but if students are treated more adult like they will work and respect more. Engagement is the key and everything else is completely useless if you don't. Every student learns differently, some are more hands on and other are more book. I suggest away to get the students to do their work more, is to allow them to listen to music why working. New creative forms of teacher help students, trick them into learning.
Unheard...Getting my view heard
ben2974
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11/23/2013 8:11:53 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/31/2013 12:53:46 AM, Logic_on_rails wrote:
At 10/30/2013 9:47:09 AM, ben2974 wrote:

I skimmed some of the topics of your debates and you definitely have interest in the subject lol (recess for homework, unknown tests dates)
I'd rather simply reply here and make for relaxed discussion than in a debate :p here you can respond whenever you want haha

I had more time awhile back to spend debating these topics! While I spend time pontificating on memory retention and it's importance, debates are different to casual chats. Let's talk here then.

Anyway, to address the points you made:

The idea of having a quiz after every assignment is to enforce homework on the students. Knowing that you will be quickly tested on the material found within the homework will encourage students to do their homework and even take notes (for higher retention and/or to ask questions in class the following day before the quiz). So not only are you benefiting more so because of the fact that you are going to actively and continuously engage with the material presented to you, you are also going to be quickly tested to fortify what you've already learned. With the quizzes having a heavier weight, students will be reluctant to concede to "skimming" assignments or not doing them at all. But of course that sounds a bit too harsh for the student -- too stressful and perhaps overbearing. So I simply propose to provide leniency to the quizzes with performance adjustments and credits (discussed in the OP).

I think that what ought to be eliminated is the marking aspect, funnily enough. Quizzes, and practice examination questions tend to be rather good at triggering memory retention, but the mark is not really required... When I write in my own notebook for outside school study of my own, I'm effectively writing 'explain...' and 'evaluate the significance of...' constantly, though I'm not marking it. I think a compromise would be to have teachers mark quizzes on a random basis - sometimes just a few from a class, perhaps mark 1 out of 3... you then retain the 'marking incentive' and reduce the workload. Really though, there's always an aspect to which the student ought to be revising in their own way. Ostensibly, that's what homework is for. Of course, we've all seen awfully designed homework, although I tend to find that that trend has decreased as one gets older in education. I think that designing superior homework materials, where homework is required, would go a long way.

You are right, though. Probably a reason why these ideas are not put into practice is because they are too time consuming and require a lot of effort by the faculty. And considering the pay wages, there may not be incentive to go to such lengths. Of course I don't believe these to be valid excuses. Anyway, I simply wanted to make a case for "best possible," or optimal. I'm not looking for what's viable.

Pay is something that requires fixing... but that's quite a significant matter to address. Improving teacher quality will lead to greater student engagement... there's a whole host of ways this could be done.

Just quickly, on application, how would you do that all the time? For instance, simultaneous equations are taught at a year 8 level, but the implications with regards to curves and problem solving tends not to occur until, say, a year 10 level. Does application mean a digression in some cases? This is a classic case of some things being desirable to teach, yet difficult to fully convey the benefits to youth.

I can't say I know all the answers lol. Application where applicable. For example, math is math. Math is often "application" in the sense that you're solving "problems." They could be considered real world problems, too. The problem is that those "problems" you're solving for are irrelevant to you. Do you care about finding the acceleration of a theoretical car going a certain direction in x amount of minutes? I don't. lol. Creativity is definitely needed in the math department to keep those naturally uninterested, interested.

Application may lead to digression, but not often, i'd say. Watching a history movie relevant to the stuff you're learning can help you put things into scope and give you an illustration of what things were like. Science: labs! Quite self-explanatory since they're already very common to have in science classes for chemistry, physics, and bio (and then of course your higher level courses focusing on detail like molecular bio, genetics, biochem, orgo, etc).

Application for academics in the humanities/social studies department can easily entail research projects on selected topics that students choose from. They find something that interests them the most within the range of topics that are related to the material being taught, and with some guidelines, will conduct research to reach conclusions!

I don't think it's possible to reach out to every student (getting them to take a full interest in the material), no matter what you do. Every student will hold dislike for various subjects and interests in others. And making these students worry more about the classes they don't enjoy just makes their lives tougher in general. That's why I think, more than anything else, that how a student is graded is the most important part, because it regulates the level of participation/effort from the student. My idea of application can honestly be double-edged. It may enhance (by giving glimpses of what it's like to work with the knowledge you obtain in certain subjects) the student's appreciation or dislike of the subject. The thing is that finding ways for students to apply their knowledge and get a better idea of what they're learning is more valuable than keeping out application/hands-on and leaving all the students in the dark with what they're learning.
ben2974
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11/23/2013 8:25:18 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/20/2013 4:58:54 AM, unheard wrote:
May I say all your points are ok, but students arn't going to learn if they don't want to.You need to find ways to engage them. One of my teachers once, we were doing averages and all that stuff so he brought a small packet of M&M's for each student, with 8 in a pack. It helped people visually think how to do it and physically, it helped so many students and engaged them. Teachers also need to treat students with a lot more respect and students should do the same with teachers, but if students are treated more adult like they will work and respect more. Engagement is the key and everything else is completely useless if you don't. Every student learns differently, some are more hands on and other are more book. I suggest away to get the students to do their work more, is to allow them to listen to music why working. New creative forms of teacher help students, trick them into learning.

Yeah, activity incentives are definitely key to success here. Incentive is what my list is trying to get at. :D
But I don't agree with "engagement is the key and everything else is completely useless if you don't." Grades are essential for engagement. I had a history professor tell us that grades were implemented for this very reason.

Also, school isn't ONLY about academics. It's a social thing, too. It's a place that's supposed to help fine-tune student character and prepare them for the real world. Being timely, being respectful to others, having discipline, etc. Achieving this requires some structure and some rules. Allowing students to "do what they want" during class time would be highly inefficient and likely disruptive (yeah, kinda goes hand in hand with efficiency lol). Treating all students equally is of high importance in a classroom environment: finding equilibrium by respecting everyone's needs to the best degree. This can't be done if you just allow all the students to do what ever they want just so they can feel "comfortable" in class. Remember, discipline is an important attribute.
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11/24/2013 5:05:12 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/23/2013 8:25:18 AM, ben2974 wrote:
At 11/20/2013 4:58:54 AM, unheard wrote:
May I say all your points are ok, but students arn't going to learn if they don't want to.You need to find ways to engage them. One of my teachers once, we were doing averages and all that stuff so he brought a small packet of M&M's for each student, with 8 in a pack. It helped people visually think how to do it and physically, it helped so many students and engaged them. Teachers also need to treat students with a lot more respect and students should do the same with teachers, but if students are treated more adult like they will work and respect more. Engagement is the key and everything else is completely useless if you don't. Every student learns differently, some are more hands on and other are more book. I suggest away to get the students to do their work more, is to allow them to listen to music why working. New creative forms of teacher help students, trick them into learning.

Yeah, activity incentives are definitely key to success here. Incentive is what my list is trying to get at. :D
But I don't agree with "engagement is the key and everything else is completely useless if you don't." Grades are essential for engagement. I had a history professor tell us that grades were implemented for this very reason.

Also, school isn't ONLY about academics. It's a social thing, too. It's a place that's supposed to help fine-tune student character and prepare them for the real world. Being timely, being respectful to others, having discipline, etc. Achieving this requires some structure and some rules. Allowing students to "do what they want" during class time would be highly inefficient and likely disruptive (yeah, kinda goes hand in hand with efficiency lol). Treating all students equally is of high importance in a classroom environment: finding equilibrium by respecting everyone's needs to the best degree. This can't be done if you just allow all the students to do what ever they want just so they can feel "comfortable" in class. Remember, discipline is an important attribute.

I didn't say that you had to let them do what they want, you just had to be more flexible. You said you fine tune them, if you don't let them be like adults they won't learn. Source I'm a secondary and primary teacher.
Unheard...Getting my view heard
ben2974
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11/24/2013 11:52:29 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/24/2013 5:05:12 AM, unheard wrote:
At 11/23/2013 8:25:18 AM, ben2974 wrote:
At 11/20/2013 4:58:54 AM, unheard wrote:
May I say all your points are ok, but students arn't going to learn if they don't want to.You need to find ways to engage them. One of my teachers once, we were doing averages and all that stuff so he brought a small packet of M&M's for each student, with 8 in a pack. It helped people visually think how to do it and physically, it helped so many students and engaged them. Teachers also need to treat students with a lot more respect and students should do the same with teachers, but if students are treated more adult like they will work and respect more. Engagement is the key and everything else is completely useless if you don't. Every student learns differently, some are more hands on and other are more book. I suggest away to get the students to do their work more, is to allow them to listen to music why working. New creative forms of teacher help students, trick them into learning.

Yeah, activity incentives are definitely key to success here. Incentive is what my list is trying to get at. :D
But I don't agree with "engagement is the key and everything else is completely useless if you don't." Grades are essential for engagement. I had a history professor tell us that grades were implemented for this very reason.

Also, school isn't ONLY about academics. It's a social thing, too. It's a place that's supposed to help fine-tune student character and prepare them for the real world. Being timely, being respectful to others, having discipline, etc. Achieving this requires some structure and some rules. Allowing students to "do what they want" during class time would be highly inefficient and likely disruptive (yeah, kinda goes hand in hand with efficiency lol). Treating all students equally is of high importance in a classroom environment: finding equilibrium by respecting everyone's needs to the best degree. This can't be done if you just allow all the students to do what ever they want just so they can feel "comfortable" in class. Remember, discipline is an important attribute.



I didn't say that you had to let them do what they want, you just had to be more flexible. You said you fine tune them, if you don't let them be like adults they won't learn. Source I'm a secondary and primary teacher.

Fine-tuning did not imply treating them like a child. At least I did not want to imply this. Also, what are the implications behind letting them be "like adults?"
unheard
Posts: 10
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11/25/2013 4:51:03 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/24/2013 11:52:29 AM, ben2974 wrote:
At 11/24/2013 5:05:12 AM, unheard wrote:
At 11/23/2013 8:25:18 AM, ben2974 wrote:
At 11/20/2013 4:58:54 AM, unheard wrote:
May I say all your points are ok, but students arn't going to learn if they don't want to.You need to find ways to engage them. One of my teachers once, we were doing averages and all that stuff so he brought a small packet of M&M's for each student, with 8 in a pack. It helped people visually think how to do it and physically, it helped so many students and engaged them. Teachers also need to treat students with a lot more respect and students should do the same with teachers, but if students are treated more adult like they will work and respect more. Engagement is the key and everything else is completely useless if you don't. Every student learns differently, some are more hands on and other are more book. I suggest away to get the students to do their work more, is to allow them to listen to music why working. New creative forms of teacher help students, trick them into learning.

Yeah, activity incentives are definitely key to success here. Incentive is what my list is trying to get at. :D
But I don't agree with "engagement is the key and everything else is completely useless if you don't." Grades are essential for engagement. I had a history professor tell us that grades were implemented for this very reason.

Also, school isn't ONLY about academics. It's a social thing, too. It's a place that's supposed to help fine-tune student character and prepare them for the real world. Being timely, being respectful to others, having discipline, etc. Achieving this requires some structure and some rules. Allowing students to "do what they want" during class time would be highly inefficient and likely disruptive (yeah, kinda goes hand in hand with efficiency lol). Treating all students equally is of high importance in a classroom environment: finding equilibrium by respecting everyone's needs to the best degree. This can't be done if you just allow all the students to do what ever they want just so they can feel "comfortable" in class. Remember, discipline is an important attribute.



I didn't say that you had to let them do what they want, you just had to be more flexible. You said you fine tune them, if you don't let them be like adults they won't learn. Source I'm a secondary and primary teacher.

Fine-tuning did not imply treating them like a child. At least I did not want to imply this. Also, what are the implications behind letting them be "like adults?"

It helps them understand the real world, it helps them feel and act independent and from what I have seen the students feel more respected and show the teachers more respect.
Unheard...Getting my view heard
ben2974
Posts: 767
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11/25/2013 9:39:00 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/25/2013 4:51:03 AM, unheard wrote:
At 11/24/2013 11:52:29 AM, ben2974 wrote:
At 11/24/2013 5:05:12 AM, unheard wrote:
At 11/23/2013 8:25:18 AM, ben2974 wrote:
At 11/20/2013 4:58:54 AM, unheard wrote:
May I say all your points are ok, but students arn't going to learn if they don't want to.You need to find ways to engage them. One of my teachers once, we were doing averages and all that stuff so he brought a small packet of M&M's for each student, with 8 in a pack. It helped people visually think how to do it and physically, it helped so many students and engaged them. Teachers also need to treat students with a lot more respect and students should do the same with teachers, but if students are treated more adult like they will work and respect more. Engagement is the key and everything else is completely useless if you don't. Every student learns differently, some are more hands on and other are more book. I suggest away to get the students to do their work more, is to allow them to listen to music why working. New creative forms of teacher help students, trick them into learning.

Yeah, activity incentives are definitely key to success here. Incentive is what my list is trying to get at. :D
But I don't agree with "engagement is the key and everything else is completely useless if you don't." Grades are essential for engagement. I had a history professor tell us that grades were implemented for this very reason.

Also, school isn't ONLY about academics. It's a social thing, too. It's a place that's supposed to help fine-tune student character and prepare them for the real world. Being timely, being respectful to others, having discipline, etc. Achieving this requires some structure and some rules. Allowing students to "do what they want" during class time would be highly inefficient and likely disruptive (yeah, kinda goes hand in hand with efficiency lol). Treating all students equally is of high importance in a classroom environment: finding equilibrium by respecting everyone's needs to the best degree. This can't be done if you just allow all the students to do what ever they want just so they can feel "comfortable" in class. Remember, discipline is an important attribute.



I didn't say that you had to let them do what they want, you just had to be more flexible. You said you fine tune them, if you don't let them be like adults they won't learn. Source I'm a secondary and primary teacher.

Fine-tuning did not imply treating them like a child. At least I did not want to imply this. Also, what are the implications behind letting them be "like adults?"

It helps them understand the real world, it helps them feel and act independent and from what I have seen the students feel more respected and show the teachers more respect.

Sorry I was asking what treating students like adults would entail. Give me examples of adult treatment in the context of schooling.