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Overestimating college

PARADIGM_L0ST
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7/19/2010 10:26:02 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
The status quo has been systematically indoctrinating people with the notion that college should be nearly compulsory. Let us not forget, however, that colleges and universities are businesses, first and foremost, operating entirely on a system of tuition. So go figure that they'd want your business.

That college is being pushed so hard leads to a dumbing down of those in schools, pumping out degrees in the diploma mills. Never before in history have so many college grads been been on the planet.

The result, I believe, has had some deleterious results. The expected results was a national or international accumulation of highly intelligent people to create jobs. But the adage "Quality, not quantity" still rings true to me.

The problem is that if you saturate the market with too many college grads, then the benefits of being a college grad diminish. In essence, there may be too many of them. Competition is then limited to people who have Masters or PhD's in their respective field. More to the point, most people do not work in their respective field of study, which serves to invalidate the premise that a degree in one's field of study is necessary for a high-paying, quality job.

This is not to downplay the significance or importance of education. This only challenges the paradigm of college being vital for success. The world still needs trades that likely outweigh the demand for college-level education.

Discuss...
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
badger
Posts: 11,793
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7/19/2010 10:30:41 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/19/2010 10:26:02 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
The status quo has been systematically indoctrinating people with the notion that college should be nearly compulsory. Let us not forget, however, that colleges and universities are businesses, first and foremost, operating entirely on a system of tuition. So go figure that they'd want your business.

That college is being pushed so hard leads to a dumbing down of those in schools, pumping out degrees in the diploma mills. Never before in history have so many college grads been been on the planet.

The result, I believe, has had some deleterious results. The expected results was a national or international accumulation of highly intelligent people to create jobs. But the adage "Quality, not quantity" still rings true to me.

The problem is that if you saturate the market with too many college grads, then the benefits of being a college grad diminish. In essence, there may be too many of them. Competition is then limited to people who have Masters or PhD's in their respective field. More to the point, most people do not work in their respective field of study, which serves to invalidate the premise that a degree in one's field of study is necessary for a high-paying, quality job.

This is not to downplay the significance or importance of education. This only challenges the paradigm of college being vital for success. The world still needs trades that likely outweigh the demand for college-level education.

Discuss...

i'd all that copped ages ago. 'tis why a dropped outa school and became a sort of electrician.
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belle
Posts: 4,113
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7/19/2010 10:32:12 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/19/2010 10:26:02 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
The status quo has been systematically indoctrinating people with the notion that college should be nearly compulsory. Let us not forget, however, that colleges and universities are businesses, first and foremost, operating entirely on a system of tuition. So go figure that they'd want your business.

That college is being pushed so hard leads to a dumbing down of those in schools, pumping out degrees in the diploma mills. Never before in history have so many college grads been been on the planet.

The result, I believe, has had some deleterious results. The expected results was a national or international accumulation of highly intelligent people to create jobs. But the adage "Quality, not quantity" still rings true to me.

The problem is that if you saturate the market with too many college grads, then the benefits of being a college grad diminish. In essence, there may be too many of them. Competition is then limited to people who have Masters or PhD's in their respective field. More to the point, most people do not work in their respective field of study, which serves to invalidate the premise that a degree in one's field of study is necessary for a high-paying, quality job.

This is not to downplay the significance or importance of education. This only challenges the paradigm of college being vital for success. The world still needs trades that likely outweigh the demand for college-level education.

Discuss...

sort of. it seems to me its not only the number of people getting degrees but the amount of education that good jobs require. most of the jobs on the lower end of the education scale are being outsourced. most of the new jobs that are being created deal with new technologies. so we have a high concentration of jobs in developed countries that require pretty high levels of education. i don't think more people getting degrees forced that, i think more people started getting degrees because they realized they needed to have them if they wanted to get anywhere (given the available jobs).
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
PARADIGM_L0ST
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7/19/2010 11:06:24 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
it seems to me its not only the number of people getting degrees but the amount of education that good jobs require. most of the jobs on the lower end of the education scale are being outsourced. most of the new jobs that are being created deal with new technologies. so we have a high concentration of jobs in developed countries that require pretty high levels of education. i don't think more people getting degrees forced that, i think more people started getting degrees because they realized they needed to have them if they wanted to get anywhere (given the available jobs).:

College has always been pushed, but never before has been easier to go. College was once for a privileged few, and in the regard that it is no longer limited to those with extreme wealth is an improvement, but I think that jobs being outsourced is for a different reason altogether. I think that has to do with the introduction of labor unions extorting companies.

It makes a lot of sense, actually. If you'll notice, the Japanese car manufacturers don't ask for government bailout's, it's the American auto companies. Toyota, Honda, Subaru, Nissan pay their employees well without being unionized. Labor unions in the US are crippling America by proxy of the US government. The kicker is that for years and years economists have been warning the public about this. A real shame.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
belle
Posts: 4,113
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7/19/2010 11:10:46 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/19/2010 11:06:24 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
it seems to me its not only the number of people getting degrees but the amount of education that good jobs require. most of the jobs on the lower end of the education scale are being outsourced. most of the new jobs that are being created deal with new technologies. so we have a high concentration of jobs in developed countries that require pretty high levels of education. i don't think more people getting degrees forced that, i think more people started getting degrees because they realized they needed to have them if they wanted to get anywhere (given the available jobs).:

College has always been pushed, but never before has been easier to go. College was once for a privileged few, and in the regard that it is no longer limited to those with extreme wealth is an improvement, but I think that jobs being outsourced is for a different reason altogether. I think that has to do with the introduction of labor unions extorting companies.

It makes a lot of sense, actually. If you'll notice, the Japanese car manufacturers don't ask for government bailout's, it's the American auto companies. Toyota, Honda, Subaru, Nissan pay their employees well without being unionized. Labor unions in the US are crippling America by proxy of the US government. The kicker is that for years and years economists have been warning the public about this. A real shame.

i think you misunderstood me. i wasn't trying to explain why jobs are being outsourced (cheaper labor, its somewhat obvious) but rather that once they are, and the low education jobs migrate away to other countries, the only jobs left here are the high-education jobs. or at least MORE of the jobs left here require more education. because the ones requiring less have been outsourced.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
PARADIGM_L0ST
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7/19/2010 11:19:10 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
i think you misunderstood me. i wasn't trying to explain why jobs are being outsourced (cheaper labor, its somewhat obvious) but rather that once they are, and the low education jobs migrate away to other countries, the only jobs left here are the high-education jobs. or at least MORE of the jobs left here require more education. because the ones requiring less have been outsourced.:

I think as soon as the labor unions are removed, we can go back to normal. Whatever the situation is, it needs to be resolved with a quickness. Not that I mind my tech support having an Indian accent, I'd those Indians to be here in America. :)
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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7/19/2010 11:21:56 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/19/2010 11:19:10 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
I think as soon as the labor unions are removed, we can go back to normal. Whatever the situation is, it needs to be resolved with a quickness. Not that I mind my tech support having an Indian accent, I'd those Indians to be here in America. :)

It is not just the unions, Paradigm - it's a confluence of reasons. Our cost of living is much higher in the West than it is in places like India, and unions or not, companies will need to pay higher wages here. They don't like doing that, and if they can get a better deal, they will. That is just the burden of having an industrialized society.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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7/19/2010 11:30:07 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I agree with you, and it's irrational to a point. I have a nephew who wanted to go into the military, but my brother guilted him into going to a state university. IMO he would have done well in the military, and i question how he will do in college. However, i also think you are correct in that it isn't any great feat to get through some schools now. Not all, some are still pretty demanding, but there are a lot that are a breeze. SATs have been dumbed down a couple times since i took them. For what reason? Sometimes i think its more about self-esteem than it is an education.

On the other hand, i went to college and it was good for me, but i never ever use any of the knowledge that i received in college now. My skills in communication were improved as a result of college, and in that i do draw upon those skills, but other than that, it's all been experience.
PARADIGM_L0ST
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7/19/2010 11:49:39 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
It is not just the unions, Paradigm - it's a confluence of reasons. Our cost of living is much higher in the West than it is in places like India, and unions or not, companies will need to pay higher wages here.:

True, but it's all relative. Cost of living versus a sustainable wage correspond. Sure, people in Boston, MA or San Fransico, CA make a lot more than people in Boise, ID, but then, just living in Boston or SanFran is far more costly.

But let me give you an idea of how out of control it is. The Captain of the Port, which is an Captain (O-6) in the Coast Guard (he is responsible for the entire port) makes 2-3 times less than a crane operator who works, by law, only 4 hours a day. They make beyond prevailing wages. The crane operators make over 100k for operating a crane. Now, not diminish the value of the crane operator, is he in jeopardy of losing his home if he makes 75k? No, not at all... So what we have is unions extorting companies.

Meanwhile, those left-of-center are so busy attacking straw men (CEO's and companies) that they aren't paying attention to just how much unions go against their own declared values? Why don't they care? Because unions are notoriously run by Democrats. In other words, they don't mind being hypocrites if it benefits them.

The companies cannot afford these prevailing wages, so they go under. The unions go to another company to leech off of, they go under... Pretty soon you have Detroit, or did you think that was a coincidence? Unions are parasites that bleed the host dry. And they'd better be careful, because they need a host!
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
PARADIGM_L0ST
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7/19/2010 11:58:45 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/19/2010 11:30:07 AM, innomen wrote:
I agree with you, and it's irrational to a point. I have a nephew who wanted to go into the military, but my brother guilted him into going to a state university. IMO he would have done well in the military, and i question how he will do in college.:

Or you can go to school after the military, and on their dime. I still have the Post 9/11 GI Bill waiting for me when I get out. Hell, I got a degree while in the military because they pay 100% tuition. Had your brother realized that, your nephew could have gotten an education and learned a thing or two about structure and earning a living while in the military.

However, i also think you are correct in that it isn't any great feat to get through some schools now. Not all, some are still pretty demanding, but there are a lot that are a breeze. SATs have been dumbed down a couple times since i took them. For what reason? Sometimes i think its more about self-esteem than it is an education.:

Again, I'm not discounting the need for higher education, I am just saying that to push them so aggressively is not the best interest of all or the economy. I think it really creates a false impression. Kids coming out with an IT degree have an incredible sense of self-entitlement, as if they're the sh*t for having a degree while having no realworld experience.

On the other hand, i went to college and it was good for me, but i never ever use any of the knowledge that i received in college now. My skills in communication were improved as a result of college, and in that i do draw upon those skills, but other than that, it's all been experience.:

No, absolutely, I'm distinguishing between this elitist attitude that the college is the end-all, be-all crowd espouses. I just think school is not for everybody and there is nothing wrong with learning a trade. They pay well and they are indespensibly vital.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
innomen
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7/19/2010 12:23:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/19/2010 12:12:17 PM, wjmelements wrote:
Plumbers and Electricians will be filthy rich in the next generation.

I very much agree with that.
wjmelements
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7/20/2010 10:23:50 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/19/2010 12:23:34 PM, innomen wrote:
At 7/19/2010 12:12:17 PM, wjmelements wrote:
Plumbers and Electricians will be filthy rich in the next generation.

I very much agree with that.

Everyone that gets a degree will be competing with each other, so their wages may not be that different from high school graduates.
Skilled workers, however, will be much fewer.

I don't see why more people don't want to be plumbers. They make $50+ an hour and only work 4 to 6 hours a day.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
nonentity
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7/20/2010 11:15:51 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I don't know if someone mentioned this (I sort of skimmed through the thread) but the reputation of the school plays a big part as well. The more respected the school, the more selective they can be about who they accept. I guess what you're saying is true for certain occupations but in the field I'm currently in school for you need an education (I'm aiming for doctorate). In the field I currently work in (finance) you don't need a finance degree at all. I've seen people become bank managers with degrees in Kinesiology lol.
PARADIGM_L0ST
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7/21/2010 7:59:40 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
In the field I currently work in (finance) you don't need a finance degree at all. I've seen people become bank managers with degrees in Kinesiology lol.:

Precisely my point... The thing that matters most is just having a degree which falsely verifies a person's aptitude or competency level.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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4/1/2012 5:06:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/1/2012 12:11:26 AM, vmpire321 wrote:
college is bad

False.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
sadolite
Posts: 8,836
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4/7/2012 10:28:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/19/2010 12:12:17 PM, wjmelements wrote:
Plumbers and Electricians will be filthy rich in the next generation.

You go that right. I find it funny that the college elite crowd looks down on people who do this work. You can get a contractors license for all of $1500.00 which includes all the books and take the test a month later and have the credentials to make the skys the limit. The average contractor earns $150,000 a year and that does not include all the benefits of the trade like writing anything and everything you buy off on your taxes. I am currently in the process of getting my contractors license. I have a handy man business on the side and I don't have enough hours in the day to do all the work. I have to turn it away. I charge 35.00 an hour and people pay it with a smile on their face. When I get my contractors license I'm going to $80.00 and hour and going to quit my full time job.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
sadolite
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4/7/2012 10:35:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/7/2012 10:28:28 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 7/19/2010 12:12:17 PM, wjmelements wrote:
Plumbers and Electricians will be filthy rich in the next generation.

You go that right. I find it funny that the college elite crowd looks down on people who do this work. You can get a contractors license for all of $1500.00 which includes all the books and take the test a month later and have the credentials to make the skys the limit. The average contractor earns $150,000 a year and that does not include all the benefits of the trade like writing anything and everything you buy off on your taxes. I am currently in the process of getting my contractors license. I have a handy man business on the side and I don't have enough hours in the day to do all the work. I have to turn it away. I charge 35.00 an hour and people pay it with a smile on their face. When I get my contractors license I'm going to $80.00 and hour and going to quit my full time job.

Ya, a $100,000 colege education may give you a better chance at getting a "job". But a really smart person is "self employeed"
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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4/7/2012 10:38:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/7/2012 10:35:32 PM, sadolite wrote:
Ya, a $100,000 colege education may give you a better chance at getting a "job". But a really smart person is "self employeed"

Trade school is the best investment you can ever make. I unfortunately have never been a very handy person, and am not very physically apt, so that was never an option for me. I chose pharmacy because it's essentially like going to trade school and coming out doing skilled labor, only I'm not self-employed.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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4/9/2012 8:25:19 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/7/2012 10:38:06 PM, Kleptin wrote:
Trade school is the best investment you can ever make. I unfortunately have never been a very handy person, and am not very physically apt, so that was never an option for me.

Samesies. I agree with PL's post and what wjmelements said about skilled jobs. I despise the school system and can sit here and name flaw after flaw after flaw - BUT - do we think this is going to change? That's the question. So far the trend has been to pursue more and more education rather than have a great number of people recognize this scam and make other investments.

On another note, I'm disappointed to see PL argue so vehemently against labor unions. As an anarcho-syndicalist, my ideal society would run on an economy backed entirely by unions lol though granted it would be completely different from how labor unions operate now. Even though currently flawed, I support unions and I think it's incredibly naive to say they are to blame for outsourcing.
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gerrandesquire
Posts: 1,258
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4/9/2012 8:43:10 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I find it preposterous that college education is so damn expensive in most of the educational hotspot countries. I thought of applying to the LSE after my high school, but the college fees over there could NEVER have been compensated if I got a job here (given the unfavorable exchange rate).

Why doesn't government subsidize the college cost or something? Presently, my college fees is less than the expenses of my travelling to the college per month. And that's how it should be- I think.
gerrandesquire
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4/9/2012 9:02:45 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/9/2012 8:43:10 AM, gerrandesquire wrote:
I find it preposterous that college education is so damn expensive in most of the educational hotspot countries. I thought of applying to the LSE after my high school, but the college fees over there could NEVER have been compensated if I got a job here (given the unfavorable exchange rate).

Why doesn't government subsidize the college cost or something? Presently, my college fees is less than the expenses of my travelling to the college per month. And it is one of the best universities- and one of the best college in the university. And that's how it should be. The better the college- the cheaper it should be. Incentivisation.

Gaah. The structuring of the makes the argument so feeble :/ Fixed. And I'm tired.
marcuscato
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4/9/2012 10:37:09 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Colleges are not very useful. We should spend money on building libraries and laboratories/workshops. Colleges are not really effective in money+time parameters when it comes to spreading knowledge.

I go to my college mostly to socialize and goof about. My college is surprisingly understanding about student needs- i suspect we get like 5 months of holidays in a year if you total all the vacations+holidays+mass bunks(a.k.a "common off")
sadolite
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4/10/2012 7:04:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/9/2012 8:43:10 AM, gerrandesquire wrote:
I find it preposterous that college education is so damn expensive in most of the educational hotspot countries. I thought of applying to the LSE after my high school, but the college fees over there could NEVER have been compensated if I got a job here (given the unfavorable exchange rate).

Why doesn't government subsidize the college cost or something? Presently, my college fees is less than the expenses of my travelling to the college per month. And that's how it should be- I think.

It is because govt is subsidising it now that college has become so expensive. It's just like health care, if you think it is expensive now wait till it's free. Only the privileged elite will have either.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
sadolite
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4/10/2012 7:14:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/10/2012 7:04:07 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 4/9/2012 8:43:10 AM, gerrandesquire wrote:
I find it preposterous that college education is so damn expensive in most of the educational hotspot countries. I thought of applying to the LSE after my high school, but the college fees over there could NEVER have been compensated if I got a job here (given the unfavorable exchange rate).

Why doesn't government subsidize the college cost or something? Presently, my college fees is less than the expenses of my travelling to the college per month. And that's how it should be- I think.

It is because govt is subsidising it now that college has become so expensive. It's just like health care, if you think it is expensive now wait till it's free. Only the privileged elite will have either.

My wife got a college loan in Sweden, she is 47 years old and has yet still to pay it off. Truly and utterly pathetic is the college loan program. Saddle people with life long debt by gambling and putting all of ones eggs in one basket. What is it now for a degree in college $50,000 75,000;. I can't even imagine owing that much money before I have even entered the work force. Quite possibly the worst financial advise I have ever heard if you ask me.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
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5/28/2012 10:30:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
In the U.S. college is very heavily subsidized by the government. The government makes huge loans to students, who in turn pay whatever tuition is asked. Colleges do not compete on quality-for-price. They compete on lavish sports facilities, no classes on Fridays, and having easy courses that won't keep a student from graduating no matter what. The average student study load is now 14 hours per week, down from 23 hours two decades ago.

In China and India, 30% of students are in math, science, or engineering. In the U.S. it's 4%. The US has serious shortages in those fields. Immigration of educated professionals is strictly limited, while unskilled immigrant labor from Mexico is practically unlimited. It's absolutely false that there are not enough high-end jobs to give U.S. grads a chance. Silicon Valley now only survives by virtue of the limited number of immigrants from China and India. There are not enough high paying easy jobs.

I'm all in favor of trade schools and non-professional education too. Anything that is useful.