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GodSands
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8/9/2010 6:48:31 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
: At 8/9/2010 6:46:19 PM, badger wrote:
so where did god come from?

Well if God was created then that would mean God isn't infinite. God doesn't have a creator nor a beginning, but He is the beginning and the end. But God has no end.
tvellalott
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8/9/2010 6:50:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
http://en.wikipedia.org...
Strangly enough, popculturepooka mentioned this field of philosophy earlier. I directly addresses what I think you are trying to say. I'd seen it mentioned before and never looked it up, but it is very interesting.
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tvellalott
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8/9/2010 6:51:45 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/9/2010 6:48:31 PM, GodSands wrote:
: At 8/9/2010 6:46:19 PM, badger wrote:
so where did god come from?

Well if God was created then that would mean God isn't infinite. God doesn't have a creator nor a beginning, but He is the beginning and the end. But God has no end.

If he is the beginning and the end, but has no end, does that mean he is only the beginning?
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GeoLaureate8
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8/9/2010 6:53:07 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/9/2010 6:50:17 PM, tvellalott wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org...
Strangly enough, popculturepooka mentioned this field of philosophy earlier. I directly addresses what I think you are trying to say. I'd seen it mentioned before and never looked it up, but it is very interesting.

Actually, "information" in the sense that GodSands is referring to isn't really part of epistemology.
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tvellalott
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8/9/2010 6:54:19 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Then I have no idea what he is talking about...
Information =/= Knowledge?
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GodSands
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8/9/2010 6:57:11 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
: At 8/9/2010 6:51:45 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/9/2010 6:48:31 PM, GodSands wrote:
: At 8/9/2010 6:46:19 PM, badger wrote:
so where did god come from?

Well if God was created then that would mean God isn't infinite. God doesn't have a creator nor a beginning, but He is the beginning and the end. But God has no end.

If he is the beginning and the end, but has no end, does that mean he is only the beginning?


It basically means God is everlasting, God is the beginning, and God is the end, God has no beginning nor no end. In other words everything is about God, and anything that turns against God is worthless and pointless.
JustCallMeTarzan
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8/9/2010 6:58:54 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/9/2010 6:43:46 PM, GodSands wrote:
Information can ONLY derive from information. Discuss.

Obviously false. If information can only come from information, then where did that information come from?

Information derives from FACTS. End of discussion.
GodSands
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8/9/2010 6:58:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
: At 8/9/2010 6:54:19 PM, tvellalott wrote:
Then I have no idea what he is talking about...
Information =/= Knowledge?


What I am looking for actually is does information come from non information or does it come from another source of information? Can randomness create information?
GodSands
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8/9/2010 7:00:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
: At 8/9/2010 6:58:54 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
At 8/9/2010 6:43:46 PM, GodSands wrote:
Information can ONLY derive from information. Discuss.

Obviously false. If information can only come from information, then where did that information come from?

Information derives from FACTS. End of discussion.


There is an intelligence which is eternal, is that possible? It's not the end of dicussion, for if you meant that it was, then don't reply to this.
GeoLaureate8
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8/9/2010 7:07:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/9/2010 6:54:19 PM, tvellalott wrote:
Then I have no idea what he is talking about...
Information =/= Knowledge?

Epistemology is the study of how we know things. What GodSands is, I think, referring to this:

"there is a growing trend in physics to define the physical world as being made of information itself (and thus information is defined in this way)" -- http://en.wikipedia.org...

And yes, information is not the same as knowledge. Information is what informs us, knowledge is what we know.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
tvellalott
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8/9/2010 7:13:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/9/2010 7:07:28 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/9/2010 6:54:19 PM, tvellalott wrote:
Then I have no idea what he is talking about...
Information =/= Knowledge?

Epistemology is the study of how we know things. What GodSands is, I think, referring to this:

"there is a growing trend in physics to define the physical world as being made of information itself (and thus information is defined in this way)" -- http://en.wikipedia.org...

And yes, information is not the same as knowledge. Information is what informs us, knowledge is what we know.

A person can have information in their mind.
A book can have knowledge and inform us.
If we could only use words in their strictest definitions language would be very boring.
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tvellalott
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8/9/2010 7:17:37 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/9/2010 6:57:11 PM, GodSands wrote:
It basically means God is everlasting, God is the beginning, and God is the end, God has no beginning nor no end. In other words everything is about God, and anything that turns against God is worthless and pointless.

This is exactly why I am an Atheist. That is complete nonsense. I find the very idea that everything that turns against God is worthless and pointless to be extremely insulting.
God is just dog backwards.
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GeoLaureate8
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8/9/2010 7:22:01 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/9/2010 7:13:02 PM, tvellalott wrote:
A person can have information in their mind.

A mind has knowledge and that knowledge is gained through information.

A book can have knowledge and inform us.

A book can't have knowledge. Books can't "know" things without minds. Books contain information.

If we could only use words in their strictest definitions language would be very boring.

It's not about what is fun or boring, but what is useful in philosophical discourse. The information GodSands is referring is what is called "physical information" which is distinct from the field of epistemology. This is more of a scientific matter, not a matter of epistemology.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
tvellalott
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8/9/2010 7:35:56 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/9/2010 7:22:01 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/9/2010 7:13:02 PM, tvellalott wrote:
A person can have information in their mind.

A mind has knowledge and that knowledge is gained through information.

A book can have knowledge and inform us.

A book can't have knowledge. Books can't "know" things without minds. Books contain information.

If we could only use words in their strictest definitions language would be very boring.

It's not about what is fun or boring, but what is useful in philosophical discourse. The information GodSands is referring is what is called "physical information" which is distinct from the field of epistemology. This is more of a scientific matter, not a matter of epistemology.

<|:O <--- That's me in my dunce hat.

Perhaps you've read some other prelude thread to this where GodSends stated the specific type of information he was going to talk about. I clearly wasn't privy to it. I didn't realise that someone I thought was a creationist would want to discuss the science of Physics. All I've saw was "Information can ONLY derive from information. Discuss."
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GeoLaureate8
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8/9/2010 7:47:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/9/2010 7:35:56 PM, tvellalott wrote:
Perhaps you've read some other prelude thread to this where GodSends stated the specific type of information he was going to talk about. I clearly wasn't privy to it. I didn't realise that someone I thought was a creationist would want to discuss the science of Physics. All I've saw was "Information can ONLY derive from information. Discuss."

Well, creationists/intelligent design proponents usually use the existence of information in the physical world to prove the existence of an intelligent designer. Remember that video of Ravi Zacharias that argued that where ever you see the existence of information, you assume that it came from a mind?
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
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tvellalott
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8/9/2010 8:32:46 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/9/2010 7:47:18 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/9/2010 7:35:56 PM, tvellalott wrote:
Perhaps you've read some other prelude thread to this where GodSends stated the specific type of information he was going to talk about. I clearly wasn't privy to it. I didn't realise that someone I thought was a creationist would want to discuss the science of Physics. All I've saw was "Information can ONLY derive from information. Discuss."

Well, creationists/intelligent design proponents usually use the existence of information in the physical world to prove the existence of an intelligent designer. Remember that video of Ravi Zacharias that argued that where ever you see the existence of information, you assume that it came from a mind?

So God is... information?
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GodSands
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8/10/2010 4:42:39 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
: At 8/9/2010 8:32:46 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/9/2010 7:47:18 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/9/2010 7:35:56 PM, tvellalott wrote:
Perhaps you've read some other prelude thread to this where GodSends stated the specific type of information he was going to talk about. I clearly wasn't privy to it. I didn't realise that someone I thought was a creationist would want to discuss the science of Physics. All I've saw was "Information can ONLY derive from information. Discuss."

Well, creationists/intelligent design proponents usually use the existence of information in the physical world to prove the existence of an intelligent designer. Remember that video of Ravi Zacharias that argued that where ever you see the existence of information, you assume that it came from a mind?

So God is... information?


Information is a code, if you know a code, it is information. If you do not, it is useless. Knowledge such as rain comes from clouds is not necessally information, but if you had a purpose to know that rain come from clouds, then it is a piece of information.

God Himself is a deity, to know of God is having knowledge, innate or otherwise, that is debatable. But God I believe, can be used as information and that information is universal as a sense of understanding the means of where the universe derived from. If there is no God, then information is down to the observer, and this makes everything unknowable or rather said, permissible.
GodSands
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8/11/2010 7:46:41 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
: At 8/11/2010 6:27:24 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 8/9/2010 6:43:46 PM, GodSands wrote:
Information can ONLY derive from information. Discuss.

Prove it.


I am saying let's discuss it, I am not proving or attempting to prove anything here.
RoyLatham
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8/11/2010 8:31:40 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Saying "information" doesn't mean much by itself.

There is "information" defined by physicists. It is conserved, so there is never more or less of it. For a while, physicists were concerned that black holes destroyed this type of information, but current theory is that they do not.

There is "information" in the sense of "entropy." Entropy always increases globally, but it can increase locally. For example, salt dissolved in water is "random," but as the water evaporates the salt crystallizes, the crystals are more ordered, so in that sense information is created from randomness.

Plants grow by taking energy from sunlight and CO2 from the atmosphere. The plant is more ordered that its components, but in the process of producing energy for the plant the sun became less ordered, so the solar system as a whole became less ordered.

Usually, questions like what Godsands posed are referring to an entropy concept. If so, the answer is "Yes, order can come from randomness, and it does so all the time."