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unfair evaluation of performances in school

xoSanchezxo
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8/8/2015 11:00:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
This topic mostly refers to my experiences in my school in Germany. I would like to know whether you have experienced the same or you disagree with me.

Next year I do my A levels. In Germany the timetable consists of main and elective classes. The main classes includes the compulsory subjects math English German etc. In my case there are three main classes, which all have different teacher. The issue is that the grade A in main class 1 is a B or even in some cases a C in main class 2. Therefore grades do not show a students abilities or intelligence. Moreover these differences even exist in one and the same main class. Teacher give students better grades because they share the same opinion on a particular topic, or a students seems to be more sympathetic than others. Another experience I made in school is that female students are preferred in many ways by male and female teacher.
Otokage
Posts: 2,347
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8/8/2015 6:38:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/8/2015 11:00:20 AM, xoSanchezxo wrote:
This topic mostly refers to my experiences in my school in Germany. I would like to know whether you have experienced the same or you disagree with me.

Next year I do my A levels. In Germany the timetable consists of main and elective classes. The main classes includes the compulsory subjects math English German etc. In my case there are three main classes, which all have different teacher. The issue is that the grade A in main class 1 is a B or even in some cases a C in main class 2. Therefore grades do not show a students abilities or intelligence. Moreover these differences even exist in one and the same main class. Teacher give students better grades because they share the same opinion on a particular topic, or a students seems to be more sympathetic than others. Another experience I made in school is that female students are preferred in many ways by male and female teacher.

Evaluation of students is not supposed to be objective, just useful to make them develop what they are good at, or what they want to be good at. In my experience both as a student and as a teacher, most teachers try to assess students individualy, meaning that an A grade that I give to you, may not be the same as an A grade that I give the one standing next to you. People are very different, and therefore need different teaching aproaches, which migh include different level of exigence, more exigence in some areas than others, different criterias at the time of evaluation, etc.

Moreover, students, specialy in europe from where you are, do not really go to school to "learn maths, german...". No, they go to school to develop competences (mathematical and logical thinking, expression, "learning to learn" , creativity, social skills, etc.) and teachers usualy use contents (subjects) to develop those competences. To put you an example, if you are good at maths, but you are a spoiled brat, I will probably put you a bad mark, because while your math skills might be good, your social skills are clearly lacking, even your mathematical and logical thinking must be lacking if you are willing to receive a bad mark just because of your poor attitude. Do u get the point?
vrj
Posts: 11
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8/10/2015 3:27:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/8/2015 11:00:20 AM, xoSanchezxo wrote:
This topic mostly refers to my experiences in my school in Germany. I would like to know whether you have experienced the same or you disagree with me.

Next year I do my A levels. In Germany the timetable consists of main and elective classes. The main classes includes the compulsory subjects math English German etc. In my case there are three main classes, which all have different teacher. The issue is that the grade A in main class 1 is a B or even in some cases a C in main class 2. Therefore grades do not show a students abilities or intelligence. Moreover these differences even exist in one and the same main class. Teacher give students better grades because they share the same opinion on a particular topic, or a students seems to be more sympathetic than others. Another experience I made in school is that female students are preferred in many ways by male and female teacher.

some other have performance good
xoSanchezxo
Posts: 11
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8/12/2015 9:57:31 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/8/2015 6:38:51 PM, Otokage wrote:
At 8/8/2015 11:00:20 AM, xoSanchezxo wrote:
This topic mostly refers to my experiences in my school in Germany. I would like to know whether you have experienced the same or you disagree with me.

Next year I do my A levels. In Germany the timetable consists of main and elective classes. The main classes includes the compulsory subjects math English German etc. In my case there are three main classes, which all have different teacher. The issue is that the grade A in main class 1 is a B or even in some cases a C in main class 2. Therefore grades do not show a students abilities or intelligence. Moreover these differences even exist in one and the same main class. Teacher give students better grades because they share the same opinion on a particular topic, or a students seems to be more sympathetic than others. Another experience I made in school is that female students are preferred in many ways by male and female teacher.

Evaluation of students is not supposed to be objective, just useful to make them develop what they are good at, or what they want to be good at. In my experience both as a student and as a teacher, most teachers try to assess students individualy, meaning that an A grade that I give to you, may not be the same as an A grade that I give the one standing next to you. People are very different, and therefore need different teaching aproaches, which migh include different level of exigence, more exigence in some areas than others, different criterias at the time of evaluation, etc.

Moreover, students, specialy in europe from where you are, do not really go to school to "learn maths, german...". No, they go to school to develop competences (mathematical and logical thinking, expression, "learning to learn" , creativity, social skills, etc.) and teachers usualy use contents (subjects) to develop those competences. To put you an example, if you are good at maths, but you are a spoiled brat, I will probably put you a bad mark, because while your math skills might be good, your social skills are clearly lacking, even your mathematical and logical thinking must be lacking if you are willing to receive a bad mark just because of your poor attitude. Do u get the point?

Ok, I agree with you on the point that the behaviour in class has an impact on the grades, which I completely neglected. I assume that you assess students individually in terms of oral grades, don't you? However the social competences or the oral grades only have little portion in the grades.

I think my point does not become very clear. The fact that irritates me is that teachers have different criteria. Teacher A makes way harder class tests and expects more from his students than teacher B does. This leads to students, which visit different classes, having the same grades although their skill and competences are on different levels.

When you apply for a job the testimonial neither shows the circumstances under which the applicant attended the classes nor the criteria the teacher had. So students benefit from teacher, who have little expectations and low criteria, whereas students who had tough teachers do have less chances to get the job.
Otokage
Posts: 2,347
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8/12/2015 10:44:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/12/2015 9:57:31 AM, xoSanchezxo wrote:
At 8/8/2015 6:38:51 PM, Otokage wrote:
At 8/8/2015 11:00:20 AM, xoSanchezxo wrote:
This topic mostly refers to my experiences in my school in Germany. I would like to know whether you have experienced the same or you disagree with me.

Next year I do my A levels. In Germany the timetable consists of main and elective classes. The main classes includes the compulsory subjects math English German etc. In my case there are three main classes, which all have different teacher. The issue is that the grade A in main class 1 is a B or even in some cases a C in main class 2. Therefore grades do not show a students abilities or intelligence. Moreover these differences even exist in one and the same main class. Teacher give students better grades because they share the same opinion on a particular topic, or a students seems to be more sympathetic than others. Another experience I made in school is that female students are preferred in many ways by male and female teacher.

Evaluation of students is not supposed to be objective, just useful to make them develop what they are good at, or what they want to be good at. In my experience both as a student and as a teacher, most teachers try to assess students individualy, meaning that an A grade that I give to you, may not be the same as an A grade that I give the one standing next to you. People are very different, and therefore need different teaching aproaches, which migh include different level of exigence, more exigence in some areas than others, different criterias at the time of evaluation, etc.

Moreover, students, specialy in europe from where you are, do not really go to school to "learn maths, german...". No, they go to school to develop competences (mathematical and logical thinking, expression, "learning to learn" , creativity, social skills, etc.) and teachers usualy use contents (subjects) to develop those competences. To put you an example, if you are good at maths, but you are a spoiled brat, I will probably put you a bad mark, because while your math skills might be good, your social skills are clearly lacking, even your mathematical and logical thinking must be lacking if you are willing to receive a bad mark just because of your poor attitude. Do u get the point?

Ok, I agree with you on the point that the behaviour in class has an impact on the grades, which I completely neglected. I assume that you assess students individually in terms of oral grades, don't you? However the social competences or the oral grades only have little portion in the grades.

I also assess students individualy in terms of their written works, tests, etc. Unless I do "select the correct answer" type of tests, which I rarely do. I also ask some students to perform better at some areas than others, etc.

I think my point does not become very clear. The fact that irritates me is that teachers have different criteria. Teacher A makes way harder class tests and expects more from his students than teacher B does. This leads to students, which visit different classes, having the same grades although their skill and competences are on different levels.

This also gives an important lesson in life, which is that you need to adapt to what people demand from you. To know that the "boss" likes and wants from you, and be able to deliver, is an invaluable lesson your "unfair teacher" is teaching you.

But hey, I agree that this can look very unfair for a student, and you know what, when some students criticize me for doing that, I take it seriously and try to compensate them in a way both me and them are satisfied. It is a pity that some teachers feel they are in a dictatorship in which students must agree to 100% of they want. We need to prepare students for their daily life, not for the military academy.

When you apply for a job the testimonial neither shows the circumstances under which the applicant attended the classes nor the criteria the teacher had. So students benefit from teacher, who have little expectations and low criteria, whereas students who had tough teachers do have less chances to get the job.

Actually that's more of a problem of the employer than of the teacher. I assume employers were students once, and they know how education works. If employers reject employees because of their highschool marks, then their company will not last I believe.
xoSanchezxo
Posts: 11
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8/12/2015 7:00:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
This also gives an important lesson in life, which is that you need to adapt to what people demand from you. To know that the "boss" likes and wants from you, and be able to deliver, is an invaluable lesson your "unfair teacher" is teaching you.

But hey, I agree that this can look very unfair for a student, and you know what, when some students criticize me for doing that, I take it seriously and try to compensate them in a way both me and them are satisfied. It is a pity that some teachers feel they are in a dictatorship in which students must agree to 100% of they want. We need to prepare students for their daily life, not for the military academy.

Fortunately, I share my experiences with a teacher. Its great to have an insight from the other persons perspective and I sincerely appreciate that you take your time in order to reply on my posts. Personally, I never got clear information about a teachers criteria and his expectations. I can only make assumptions by comparing the class tests from different teacher/students with mine.


Actually that's more of a problem of the employer than of the teacher. I assume employers were students once, and they know how education works. If employers reject employees because of their high school marks, then their company will not last I believe.

Despite the fact that it costs a lot of money, companies cant assess every applicant, simply because there are to many applicants for a job. Assessment centers are a great thing in order to compensate that, but big companies still have to make a pre-selection, where possible talents will not be discovered, because of the issue.

In my point of view the testimonials require more details about the students performance. This helps the employer and the students, which get better feedback.
Otokage
Posts: 2,347
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8/12/2015 8:39:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/12/2015 7:00:09 PM, xoSanchezxo wrote:
This also gives an important lesson in life, which is that you need to adapt to what people demand from you. To know that the "boss" likes and wants from you, and be able to deliver, is an invaluable lesson your "unfair teacher" is teaching you.

But hey, I agree that this can look very unfair for a student, and you know what, when some students criticize me for doing that, I take it seriously and try to compensate them in a way both me and them are satisfied. It is a pity that some teachers feel they are in a dictatorship in which students must agree to 100% of they want. We need to prepare students for their daily life, not for the military academy.

Fortunately, I share my experiences with a teacher. Its great to have an insight from the other persons perspective and I sincerely appreciate that you take your time in order to reply on my posts. Personally, I never got clear information about a teachers criteria and his expectations. I can only make assumptions by comparing the class tests from different teacher/students with mine.

Also, by looking at the law, teachers must agree on the so called "stage objectives and criteria", which are those who all teachers of a course or of a stage (ie highschool) agree students must reach by the end of each course/stage. They also must agree on the "subject objectives and criteria", meaning all subject teachers (ie all biology teachers) must agree on what the students must know to pass the subject, and therefore a minimum of coherence, shared criteria and shared objectives are expected among teachers. If two biology teachers, for the same course, are as different as black and white on their criteria, then you can assume one of them is blatantly breaking the law. Teachers are permited to be as different as they want in their methodologies (ie individual/more subjective evaluation vs group/more objective evaluation), but they must be clonical on every other aspect.

Actually that's more of a problem of the employer than of the teacher. I assume employers were students once, and they know how education works. If employers reject employees because of their high school marks, then their company will not last I believe.

Despite the fact that it costs a lot of money, companies cant assess every applicant, simply because there are to many applicants for a job. Assessment centers are a great thing in order to compensate that, but big companies still have to make a pre-selection, where possible talents will not be discovered, because of the issue.

In my point of view the testimonials require more details about the students performance. This helps the employer and the students, which get better feedback.

Yeah, I see your point, but I believe that even if you could make employers understand that you did good in highschool but the teacher just didn't like you or was overly strict, employers still would think "well, but surely other people in your class did get high marks, therefore I suspect the problem is in you too and not only on your teacher". However, I'm a bit surprised that you care about this, I mean, do employers on your country really pay atention to your highschool marks? It expected of employers to pay attention to the marks you got on the university, or in the "professional formation" ("Berufsausbildung" in deutsch, I think), but to the marks you got in highschool? Why would they pay attention to that? They are not informative at all about your professional skills.
xoSanchezxo
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8/13/2015 9:08:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Also, by looking at the law, teachers must agree on the so called "stage objectives and criteria", which are those who all teachers of a course or of a stage (ie highschool) agree students must reach by the end of each course/stage. They also must agree on the "subject objectives and criteria", meaning all subject teachers (ie all biology teachers) must agree on what the students must know to pass the subject, and therefore a minimum of coherence, shared criteria and shared objectives are expected among teachers. If two biology teachers, for the same course, are as different as black and white on their criteria, then you can assume one of them is blatantly breaking the law. Teachers are permited to be as different as they want in their methodologies (ie individual/more subjective evaluation vs group/more objective evaluation), but they must be clonical on every other aspect.

I see. Thanks for these information. I do suspect some teacher of not following these laws.

Yeah, I see your point, but I believe that even if you could make employers understand that you did good in highschool but the teacher just didn't like you or was overly strict, employers still would think "well, but surely other people in your class did get high marks, therefore I suspect the problem is in you too and not only on your teacher". However, I'm a bit surprised that you care about this, I mean, do employers on your country really pay attention to your highschool marks? It expected of employers to pay attention to the marks you got on the university, or in the "professional formation" ("Berufsausbildung" in deutsch, I think), but to the marks you got in highschool? Why would they pay attention to that? They are not informative at all about your professional skills.

Recently, I applied for a integrated degree progamm, where you study a term at a university and the other term you work for the company you sent the application letter. I'm really keen on this and I'm good at it. However, there are only a few appointments and the criteria are set very high, so only very good students get this appointment. Now I'm anxious that I don't get this appointment, since my testimonial is not good enough, although I know that it could be better and I am. That's why I care about it.
Otokage
Posts: 2,347
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8/13/2015 5:08:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 9:08:49 AM, xoSanchezxo wrote:
Also, by looking at the law, teachers must agree on the so called "stage objectives and criteria", which are those who all teachers of a course or of a stage (ie highschool) agree students must reach by the end of each course/stage. They also must agree on the "subject objectives and criteria", meaning all subject teachers (ie all biology teachers) must agree on what the students must know to pass the subject, and therefore a minimum of coherence, shared criteria and shared objectives are expected among teachers. If two biology teachers, for the same course, are as different as black and white on their criteria, then you can assume one of them is blatantly breaking the law. Teachers are permited to be as different as they want in their methodologies (ie individual/more subjective evaluation vs group/more objective evaluation), but they must be clonical on every other aspect.

I see. Thanks for these information. I do suspect some teacher of not following these laws.

Yeah, I see your point, but I believe that even if you could make employers understand that you did good in highschool but the teacher just didn't like you or was overly strict, employers still would think "well, but surely other people in your class did get high marks, therefore I suspect the problem is in you too and not only on your teacher". However, I'm a bit surprised that you care about this, I mean, do employers on your country really pay attention to your highschool marks? It expected of employers to pay attention to the marks you got on the university, or in the "professional formation" ("Berufsausbildung" in deutsch, I think), but to the marks you got in highschool? Why would they pay attention to that? They are not informative at all about your professional skills.

Recently, I applied for a integrated degree progamm, where you study a term at a university and the other term you work for the company you sent the application letter. I'm really keen on this and I'm good at it. However, there are only a few appointments and the criteria are set very high, so only very good students get this appointment. Now I'm anxious that I don't get this appointment, since my testimonial is not good enough, although I know that it could be better and I am. That's why I care about it.

Yeah, the university is a whole different thing, because it evaluates professional capacities and thus companies are usually reluctant to get employees that have a bad academic record. So I can only advice you to put some more effort and whish you good luck. And if you fail, don't worry, there's usualy more than 1 way to get to the job you want, so keep trying :)