Total Posts:10|Showing Posts:1-10
Jump to topic:

School Vouchers

Skepticalone
Posts: 6,130
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/13/2016 6:12:59 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
School Vouchers: a certificate of government funding for a student at a school chosen by the student or the student's parents.

Are school vouchers being used to circumvent the separation of church and state?
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Torton
Posts: 988
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/13/2016 7:32:10 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/13/2016 6:32:17 AM, Torton wrote:
Not as long as there's no incentive or favor for religious schools. See Zelman v. Simmons-Harris.
And for that matter, there shouldn't be incentives for any school: secular, religious, or public.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,130
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/14/2016 1:16:53 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/13/2016 6:32:17 AM, Torton wrote:
Not as long as there's no incentive or favor for religious schools. See Zelman v. Simmons-Harris.

If government funds are paying for a religious education, it seems the line of demarcation for the 'wall between church and state' is being bent.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Torton
Posts: 988
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/14/2016 1:27:03 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/14/2016 1:16:53 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 2/13/2016 6:32:17 AM, Torton wrote:
Not as long as there's no incentive or favor for religious schools. See Zelman v. Simmons-Harris.

If government funds are paying for a religious education, it seems the line of demarcation for the 'wall between church and state' is being bent.
The current system provides the vouchers, and it's up the student or parent/s (or both) to make the decision. As long as that doesn't change, the government isn't favoring any one institution, secular or religious, which is why it's not a violation of church and state.
Torton
Posts: 988
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/14/2016 1:31:45 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/14/2016 1:27:03 AM, Torton wrote:
At 2/14/2016 1:16:53 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 2/13/2016 6:32:17 AM, Torton wrote:
Not as long as there's no incentive or favor for religious schools. See Zelman v. Simmons-Harris.

If government funds are paying for a religious education, it seems the line of demarcation for the 'wall between church and state' is being bent.
The current system provides the vouchers, and it's up the student or parent/s (or both) to make the decision. As long as that doesn't change, the government isn't favoring any one institution, secular or religious, which is why it's not a violation of church and state.
Expanding on this, the Supreme Court concluded it wasn't violating the Establishment clause.
Hayd
Posts: 4,022
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/15/2016 6:03:50 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/14/2016 1:27:03 AM, Torton wrote:
At 2/14/2016 1:16:53 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 2/13/2016 6:32:17 AM, Torton wrote:
Not as long as there's no incentive or favor for religious schools. See Zelman v. Simmons-Harris.

If government funds are paying for a religious education, it seems the line of demarcation for the 'wall between church and state' is being bent.
The current system provides the vouchers, and it's up the student or parent/s (or both) to make the decision. As long as that doesn't change, the government isn't favoring any one institution, secular or religious, which is why it's not a violation of church and state.

I see where you are coming from. You are saying that as long as they treat each institution equally, they are not being biased towards any religion and thus not violating church and state. But church and state necessitates that the state favor secular schools, and not have any dealings with religious schools. If the state had anything influence on religious schools, it would be a violation. But it is ok for secular schools
Torton
Posts: 988
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/15/2016 6:07:24 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/15/2016 6:03:50 AM, Hayd wrote:
At 2/14/2016 1:27:03 AM, Torton wrote:
At 2/14/2016 1:16:53 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 2/13/2016 6:32:17 AM, Torton wrote:
Not as long as there's no incentive or favor for religious schools. See Zelman v. Simmons-Harris.

If government funds are paying for a religious education, it seems the line of demarcation for the 'wall between church and state' is being bent.
The current system provides the vouchers, and it's up the student or parent/s (or both) to make the decision. As long as that doesn't change, the government isn't favoring any one institution, secular or religious, which is why it's not a violation of church and state.

I see where you are coming from. You are saying that as long as they treat each institution equally, they are not being biased towards any religion and thus not violating church and state. But church and state necessitates that the state favor secular schools, and not have any dealings with religious schools.
Where is that mentioned in the Establishment clause?
If the state had anything influence on religious schools, it would be a violation. But it is ok for secular schools
Hayd
Posts: 4,022
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/15/2016 6:10:26 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/15/2016 6:07:24 AM, Torton wrote:
At 2/15/2016 6:03:50 AM, Hayd wrote:
At 2/14/2016 1:27:03 AM, Torton wrote:
At 2/14/2016 1:16:53 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 2/13/2016 6:32:17 AM, Torton wrote:
Not as long as there's no incentive or favor for religious schools. See Zelman v. Simmons-Harris.

If government funds are paying for a religious education, it seems the line of demarcation for the 'wall between church and state' is being bent.
The current system provides the vouchers, and it's up the student or parent/s (or both) to make the decision. As long as that doesn't change, the government isn't favoring any one institution, secular or religious, which is why it's not a violation of church and state.

I see where you are coming from. You are saying that as long as they treat each institution equally, they are not being biased towards any religion and thus not violating church and state. But church and state necessitates that the state favor secular schools, and not have any dealings with religious schools.
Where is that mentioned in the Establishment clause?
If the state had anything influence on religious schools, it would be a violation. But it is ok for secular schools

It is simplistic. The state cannot have influence on religious schools. Secular schools aren't religious thus it is acceptable
Torton
Posts: 988
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/15/2016 6:22:34 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/15/2016 6:10:26 AM, Hayd wrote:
At 2/15/2016 6:07:24 AM, Torton wrote:
At 2/15/2016 6:03:50 AM, Hayd wrote:
At 2/14/2016 1:27:03 AM, Torton wrote:
At 2/14/2016 1:16:53 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 2/13/2016 6:32:17 AM, Torton wrote:
Not as long as there's no incentive or favor for religious schools. See Zelman v. Simmons-Harris.

If government funds are paying for a religious education, it seems the line of demarcation for the 'wall between church and state' is being bent.
The current system provides the vouchers, and it's up the student or parent/s (or both) to make the decision. As long as that doesn't change, the government isn't favoring any one institution, secular or religious, which is why it's not a violation of church and state.

I see where you are coming from. You are saying that as long as they treat each institution equally, they are not being biased towards any religion and thus not violating church and state. But church and state necessitates that the state favor secular schools, and not have any dealings with religious schools.
Where is that mentioned in the Establishment clause?
If the state had anything influence on religious schools, it would be a violation. But it is ok for secular schools

It is simplistic. The state cannot have influence on religious schools. Secular schools aren't religious thus it is acceptable
The Establishment clause is the basis for separation of church and state, since the phrase was never specifically written into the constitution. It states that as long as the government doesn't pass legislation respecting an establishment of religion, or favors one over another, than there's no violation of the clause, and by extension, the separation of church and state.

Since that never happens in regards to the current school voucher system, to claim it does is unsubstantiated.