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Why don't teachers teach this stuff

darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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12/19/2010 3:37:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Did anybody here learn about the "logical fallacies" while in high school? I did not. I had to learn this stuff on my own. Yet, every year in high school the 'persuasive essay' was taught. Shouldn't the logical fallacies be incorporated into learning the persuasive essay? These logical fallacies should be ingrained in every person's head so he or she should be able to decipher good arguments from bad one's and not fall prey to false reasoning.
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wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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12/19/2010 3:41:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/19/2010 3:37:26 PM, darkkermit wrote:
Did anybody here learn about the "logical fallacies" while in high school? I did not. I had to learn this stuff on my own. Yet, every year in high school the 'persuasive essay' was taught. Shouldn't the logical fallacies be incorporated into learning the persuasive essay? These logical fallacies should be ingrained in every person's head so he or she should be able to decipher good arguments from bad one's and not fall prey to false reasoning.

You can learn logic in high school, but you have to take a course on it, and may schools don't offer it.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
LaissezFaire
Posts: 2,050
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12/19/2010 3:43:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
If students understood logical reasoning, they might realize how much of the stuff the teachers tell them is bullsh­it. The schools would rather have quiet, complacent kids that do what they're told and regurgitate the meaningless facts they're taught to memorize.
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mongeese
Posts: 5,387
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12/19/2010 3:43:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
We're learning about arguments in English III right now, but not necessarily logical fallacies. Last year, my English teacher mentioned strawmanning, but only as a tool, not as a fallacy.
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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12/19/2010 3:47:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/19/2010 3:43:13 PM, mongeese wrote:
Last year, my English teacher mentioned strawmanning, but only as a tool, not as a fallacy.

I hated rhetorical analysis because everything we'd read was packed with fallacy. Especially false dichotomy.
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annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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12/19/2010 3:47:57 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I never had a teacher in high school talk about logical fallacies. However, in my college courses, they have gone over several.
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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12/19/2010 3:48:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
"Logical Fallacies" are simple.. and you can really get as much of an understanding of them as you need without ever learning them As Such... without ever Naming them.. or Studying them.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
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12/19/2010 3:50:05 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/19/2010 3:48:20 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
"Logical Fallacies" are simple.. and you can really get as much of an understanding of them as you need without ever learning them As Such... without ever Naming them.. or Studying them.

you can understand them and explain them on a case by case basis without ever recoursing to the name "Fallacy"
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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12/19/2010 3:56:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/19/2010 3:50:05 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 12/19/2010 3:48:20 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
"Logical Fallacies" are simple.. and you can really get as much of an understanding of them as you need without ever learning them As Such... without ever Naming them.. or Studying them.

you can understand them and explain them on a case by case basis without ever recoursing to the name "Fallacy"

also.. Knowing the Name/category.. ISN'T nearly as important as being able to explain why something's bad reasoning in the first place..

and such Analysis can be encouraged without ever studying the Categories of bad reasoning.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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12/20/2010 4:24:03 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/19/2010 3:56:37 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 12/19/2010 3:50:05 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 12/19/2010 3:48:20 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
"Logical Fallacies" are simple.. and you can really get as much of an understanding of them as you need without ever learning them As Such... without ever Naming them.. or Studying them.

you can understand them and explain them on a case by case basis without ever recoursing to the name "Fallacy"

also.. Knowing the Name/category.. ISN'T nearly as important as being able to explain why something's bad reasoning in the first place..

and such Analysis can be encouraged without ever studying the Categories of bad reasoning.

I think that knowing the name and category is actually very important. As human beings, our knowledge is wrapped up in conceptual reasoning. Our capacity to retain, then, is influenced by our ability to associate a thing with its label, and to use that label to recall the thing. So, while I agree that being able to explain fallacious reasoning is important, I think there's an argument to be made that it's equally important for one to be able to identify X as being within the set "fallacy", and within the subset "equivocation", for example.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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12/20/2010 9:10:01 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/20/2010 4:24:03 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Our capacity to retain, then, is influenced by our ability to associate a thing with its label, and to use that label to recall the thing.

In these cases you don't need to be able to sort it into a category to recall that it's bad.. you've just got to look at what's being said.. and be somewhat intelligent.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
gavin.ogden
Posts: 1,729
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12/20/2010 5:53:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/19/2010 3:43:04 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
If students understood logical reasoning, they might realize how much of the stuff the teachers tell them is bullsh­it. The schools would rather have quiet, complacent kids that do what they're told and regurgitate the meaningless facts they're taught to memorize.

Where is the damn 'Like' button?
m93samman
Posts: 2,685
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12/20/2010 5:58:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/19/2010 3:43:04 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
If students understood logical reasoning, they might realize how much of the stuff the teachers tell them is bullsh­it. The schools would rather have quiet, complacent kids that do what they're told and regurgitate the meaningless facts they're taught to memorize.

This. 10/10
: At 4/15/2011 5:29:37 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
: Pascal's wager is for poosies.
:
: I mean that sincerly, because it's basically an argument from poooosie.
:
: I'm pretty sure that's like a fallacy.. Argument ad Pussium or something like that.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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12/20/2010 6:07:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/20/2010 5:53:12 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
At 12/19/2010 3:43:04 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
If students understood logical reasoning, they might realize how much of the stuff the teachers tell them is bullsh­it. The schools would rather have quiet, complacent kids that do what they're told and regurgitate the meaningless facts they're taught to memorize.

Where is the damn 'Like' button?
There is not much to like. The children should be taught how to listen to their teacher. Discipline is more important than "logical fallacies." A 5th grader has no special need of learning about those. Teachers do wrong, but so do children - and a child does not need to yell, "Strawman!" if his teacher tells him that Isaac Newton wasn't a math genius. He can yell, "I disagree!" but that changes little about his attitude towards one who tries to teach him and, in some cases, discipline him and his classmates.
gavin.ogden
Posts: 1,729
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12/20/2010 6:13:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/20/2010 6:07:27 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/20/2010 5:53:12 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
At 12/19/2010 3:43:04 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
If students understood logical reasoning, they might realize how much of the stuff the teachers tell them is bullsh­it. The schools would rather have quiet, complacent kids that do what they're told and regurgitate the meaningless facts they're taught to memorize.

Where is the damn 'Like' button?
There is not much to like. The children should be taught how to listen to their teacher. Discipline is more important than "logical fallacies." A 5th grader has no special need of learning about those. Teachers do wrong, but so do children - and a child does not need to yell, "Strawman!" if his teacher tells him that Isaac Newton wasn't a math genius. He can yell, "I disagree!" but that changes little about his attitude towards one who tries to teach him and, in some cases, discipline him and his classmates.

This was about high school, I thought... However, I do agree that discipline is important. I don't believe one has to do with the other. Kind of apples and oranges.
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
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12/20/2010 6:13:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/20/2010 6:07:27 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/20/2010 5:53:12 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
At 12/19/2010 3:43:04 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
If students understood logical reasoning, they might realize how much of the stuff the teachers tell them is bullsh­it. The schools would rather have quiet, complacent kids that do what they're told and regurgitate the meaningless facts they're taught to memorize.

Where is the damn 'Like' button?
There is not much to like. The children should be taught how to listen to their teacher. Discipline is more important than "logical fallacies." A 5th grader has no special need of learning about those. Teachers do wrong, but so do children - and a child does not need to yell, "Strawman!" if his teacher tells him that Isaac Newton wasn't a math genius. He can yell, "I disagree!" but that changes little about his attitude towards one who tries to teach him and, in some cases, discipline him and his classmates.

You scare me.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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12/20/2010 6:16:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/20/2010 6:13:28 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
At 12/20/2010 6:07:27 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/20/2010 5:53:12 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
At 12/19/2010 3:43:04 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
If students understood logical reasoning, they might realize how much of the stuff the teachers tell them is bullsh­it. The schools would rather have quiet, complacent kids that do what they're told and regurgitate the meaningless facts they're taught to memorize.

Where is the damn 'Like' button?
There is not much to like. The children should be taught how to listen to their teacher. Discipline is more important than "logical fallacies." A 5th grader has no special need of learning about those. Teachers do wrong, but so do children - and a child does not need to yell, "Strawman!" if his teacher tells him that Isaac Newton wasn't a math genius. He can yell, "I disagree!" but that changes little about his attitude towards one who tries to teach him and, in some cases, discipline him and his classmates.

This was about high school, I thought... However, I do agree that discipline is important. I don't believe one has to do with the other. Kind of apples and oranges.
Yes, both should be taught. But in any case, a child should not be taught about logical fallacies in order to confront his teacher. There's no need for that.
gavin.ogden
Posts: 1,729
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12/20/2010 6:16:05 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/20/2010 6:13:37 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 12/20/2010 6:07:27 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/20/2010 5:53:12 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
At 12/19/2010 3:43:04 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
If students understood logical reasoning, they might realize how much of the stuff the teachers tell them is bullsh­it. The schools would rather have quiet, complacent kids that do what they're told and regurgitate the meaningless facts they're taught to memorize.

Where is the damn 'Like' button?
There is not much to like. The children should be taught how to listen to their teacher. Discipline is more important than "logical fallacies." A 5th grader has no special need of learning about those. Teachers do wrong, but so do children - and a child does not need to yell, "Strawman!" if his teacher tells him that Isaac Newton wasn't a math genius. He can yell, "I disagree!" but that changes little about his attitude towards one who tries to teach him and, in some cases, discipline him and his classmates.

You scare me.

LOL!
gavin.ogden
Posts: 1,729
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12/20/2010 6:17:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/20/2010 6:16:00 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/20/2010 6:13:28 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
At 12/20/2010 6:07:27 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/20/2010 5:53:12 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
At 12/19/2010 3:43:04 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
If students understood logical reasoning, they might realize how much of the stuff the teachers tell them is bullsh­it. The schools would rather have quiet, complacent kids that do what they're told and regurgitate the meaningless facts they're taught to memorize.

Where is the damn 'Like' button?
There is not much to like. The children should be taught how to listen to their teacher. Discipline is more important than "logical fallacies." A 5th grader has no special need of learning about those. Teachers do wrong, but so do children - and a child does not need to yell, "Strawman!" if his teacher tells him that Isaac Newton wasn't a math genius. He can yell, "I disagree!" but that changes little about his attitude towards one who tries to teach him and, in some cases, discipline him and his classmates.

This was about high school, I thought... However, I do agree that discipline is important. I don't believe one has to do with the other. Kind of apples and oranges.
Yes, both should be taught. But in any case, a child should not be taught about logical fallacies in order to confront his teacher. There's no need for that.

I think you may be going a little bit beyond the scope on this one, Mirza.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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12/20/2010 6:20:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/20/2010 6:17:25 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
At 12/20/2010 6:16:00 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/20/2010 6:13:28 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
At 12/20/2010 6:07:27 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/20/2010 5:53:12 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
At 12/19/2010 3:43:04 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
If students understood logical reasoning, they might realize how much of the stuff the teachers tell them is bullsh­it. The schools would rather have quiet, complacent kids that do what they're told and regurgitate the meaningless facts they're taught to memorize.

Where is the damn 'Like' button?
There is not much to like. The children should be taught how to listen to their teacher. Discipline is more important than "logical fallacies." A 5th grader has no special need of learning about those. Teachers do wrong, but so do children - and a child does not need to yell, "Strawman!" if his teacher tells him that Isaac Newton wasn't a math genius. He can yell, "I disagree!" but that changes little about his attitude towards one who tries to teach him and, in some cases, discipline him and his classmates.

This was about high school, I thought... However, I do agree that discipline is important. I don't believe one has to do with the other. Kind of apples and oranges.
Yes, both should be taught. But in any case, a child should not be taught about logical fallacies in order to confront his teacher. There's no need for that.

I think you may be going a little bit beyond the scope on this one, Mirza.
No. This is beyond scope: "The schools would rather have quiet, complacent kids that do what they're told and regurgitate the meaningless facts they're taught to memorize."

It is absurd.
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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12/20/2010 6:20:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/20/2010 6:07:27 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/20/2010 5:53:12 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
At 12/19/2010 3:43:04 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
If students understood logical reasoning, they might realize how much of the stuff the teachers tell them is bullsh­it. The schools would rather have quiet, complacent kids that do what they're told and regurgitate the meaningless facts they're taught to memorize.

Where is the damn 'Like' button?
There is not much to like. The children should be taught how to listen to their teacher. Discipline is more important than "logical fallacies." A 5th grader has no special need of learning about those. Teachers do wrong, but so do children - and a child does not need to yell, "Strawman!" if his teacher tells him that Isaac Newton wasn't a math genius. He can yell, "I disagree!" but that changes little about his attitude towards one who tries to teach him and, in some cases, discipline him and his classmates.

Teaching students about logical deduction of arguments and rational discussion is somehow less important then being ignorant and complacent?
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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12/20/2010 6:21:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/20/2010 6:20:29 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/20/2010 6:17:25 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
At 12/20/2010 6:16:00 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/20/2010 6:13:28 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
At 12/20/2010 6:07:27 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/20/2010 5:53:12 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
At 12/19/2010 3:43:04 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:

No. This is beyond scope: "The schools would rather have quiet, complacent kids that do what they're told and regurgitate the meaningless facts they're taught to memorize."

It is absurd.

No, that's reality.
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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12/20/2010 6:22:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/20/2010 6:20:33 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 12/20/2010 6:07:27 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/20/2010 5:53:12 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
At 12/19/2010 3:43:04 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
If students understood logical reasoning, they might realize how much of the stuff the teachers tell them is bullsh­it. The schools would rather have quiet, complacent kids that do what they're told and regurgitate the meaningless facts they're taught to memorize.

Where is the damn 'Like' button?
There is not much to like. The children should be taught how to listen to their teacher. Discipline is more important than "logical fallacies." A 5th grader has no special need of learning about those. Teachers do wrong, but so do children - and a child does not need to yell, "Strawman!" if his teacher tells him that Isaac Newton wasn't a math genius. He can yell, "I disagree!" but that changes little about his attitude towards one who tries to teach him and, in some cases, discipline him and his classmates.

Teaching students about logical deduction of arguments and rational discussion is somehow less important then being ignorant and complacent?
No, and I never claimed that.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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12/20/2010 6:24:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/20/2010 6:21:15 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 12/20/2010 6:20:29 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/20/2010 6:17:25 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
At 12/20/2010 6:16:00 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/20/2010 6:13:28 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
At 12/20/2010 6:07:27 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/20/2010 5:53:12 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
At 12/19/2010 3:43:04 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:

No. This is beyond scope: "The schools would rather have quiet, complacent kids that do what they're told and regurgitate the meaningless facts they're taught to memorize."

It is absurd.

No, that's reality.
I didn't say it is untrue - I am attacking the notion that kids should be taught how to confront their teachers. It seems like your systems in USA are horrible. Where I live we are taught different things, and disagreeing with teachers has nothing to do with being able to expose their logical fallacies. I don't know who thought of that.
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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12/20/2010 6:24:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/20/2010 6:22:33 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/20/2010 6:20:33 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 12/20/2010 6:07:27 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/20/2010 5:53:12 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
At 12/19/2010 3:43:04 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
If students understood logical reasoning, they might realize how much of the stuff the teachers tell them is bullsh­it. The schools would rather have quiet, complacent kids that do what they're told and regurgitate the meaningless facts they're taught to memorize.

Where is the damn 'Like' button?
There is not much to like. The children should be taught how to listen to their teacher. Discipline is more important than "logical fallacies." A 5th grader has no special need of learning about those. Teachers do wrong, but so do children - and a child does not need to yell, "Strawman!" if his teacher tells him that Isaac Newton wasn't a math genius. He can yell, "I disagree!" but that changes little about his attitude towards one who tries to teach him and, in some cases, discipline him and his classmates.

Teaching students about logical deduction of arguments and rational discussion is somehow less important then being ignorant and complacent?
No, and I never claimed that.

You said that students shouldn't be taught about logical fallacies since discipline is more important. So -- by that logic -- you'd rather have complacent children who remain ignorant then those who are informed and able to argue within the academia discourse.
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
gavin.ogden
Posts: 1,729
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12/20/2010 6:26:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/20/2010 6:21:15 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 12/20/2010 6:20:29 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/20/2010 6:17:25 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
At 12/20/2010 6:16:00 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/20/2010 6:13:28 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
At 12/20/2010 6:07:27 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/20/2010 5:53:12 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
At 12/19/2010 3:43:04 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:

No. This is beyond scope: "The schools would rather have quiet, complacent kids that do what they're told and regurgitate the meaningless facts they're taught to memorize."

It is absurd.

No, that's reality.

I think it is definitely reality. Education in this country has become a joke, and teachers are merely in it for a pay check, instead of actually in it to, well, teach! These teachers are not teaching OR disciplining our kids. Moreover, discipline is for the parents, teaching is for the teachers. Effective teachers make their students interested in learning, not merely force the kids to learn. Would you agree?