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College is a waste of time and a rip off

askbob
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1/19/2011 8:59:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
http://www.usatoday.com...

Discuss
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m93samman
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1/19/2011 9:10:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/19/2011 8:59:20 PM, askbob wrote:
http://www.usatoday.com...

Discuss

"Nearly half of the nation's undergraduates show almost no gains"

Why do the other half show gains? I feel its simply apathy of the majority of college students. The report also does not mention which colleges; I doubt the same numbers exist at Yale or Duke for example.
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: Pascal's wager is for poosies.
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Grape
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1/19/2011 10:39:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
This is because of general degree inflation in the United States. A huge number of people go to college, and the majority of them are not that bright. Pretty much everyone of above average intelligence is going to college now, so before long almost everyone will have an undergrad degree and you'll be at a competitive disadvantage in the job market if you don't have one. Everyone drills into kids that you have to go to college to get a decent job, and it's kind of a self fulfilling prophecy. A large number of people that aren't very educated at all even have Master's degrees, because they need them to become teachers or whatever (depending on the state).

As said above, at elite/academically focused colleges it's probably not like this. Swarthmore is a hell of a lot different than Penn State.
askbob
Posts: 7,254
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1/19/2011 11:08:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
It's definitely the college and not the students.

Classrooms are small and crowded and most profs could care less about teaching it than they do research.

The only people who do learn anything are the people who teach themselves.

Furthermore the internet and ratings are enabling stupid students to avoid professors that make them work/study.
Me -Phil left the site in my charge. I have a recorded phone conversation to prove it.
kohai -If you're the owner, then do something useful like ip block him and get us away from juggle and on a dofferent host!
Me -haha you apparently don't know my history
Kohai - Maybe not, but that doesn't matter! You shoukd still listen to your community and quit being a tyrrant!
Me - i was being completely sarcastic
Kohai - then u misrepresented yourself by impersonating the owner—a violation of the tos
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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1/20/2011 1:25:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/19/2011 10:39:38 PM, Grape wrote:
This is because of general degree inflation in the United States. A huge number of people go to college, and the majority of them are not that bright. Pretty much everyone of above average intelligence is going to college now, so before long almost everyone will have an undergrad degree and you'll be at a competitive disadvantage in the job market if you don't have one. Everyone drills into kids that you have to go to college to get a decent job, and it's kind of a self fulfilling prophecy. A large number of people that aren't very educated at all even have Master's degrees, because they need them to become teachers or whatever (depending on the state).

As said above, at elite/academically focused colleges it's probably not like this. Swarthmore is a hell of a lot different than Penn State.

Game theory: Signaling.

The theory goes that it is still logical to pursuit an education, even though you could learn nothing from education. Instead, education purpose is to weed out those who will not be able to graduate. The degree is just a signal. Employers will hire people with a degree since those with a degree signal they are smarter and generally better workers.

Now, the theory doesn't prove that you learn nothing from education, but it is plausible.
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PARADIGM_L0ST
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1/20/2011 1:35:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/19/2011 10:39:38 PM, Grape wrote:
This is because of general degree inflation in the United States. A huge number of people go to college, and the majority of them are not that bright. Pretty much everyone of above average intelligence is going to college now, so before long almost everyone will have an undergrad degree and you'll be at a competitive disadvantage in the job market if you don't have one. Everyone drills into kids that you have to go to college to get a decent job, and it's kind of a self fulfilling prophecy. A large number of people that aren't very educated at all even have Master's degrees, because they need them to become teachers or whatever (depending on the state).:

Very intuitive. I've been saying this for years. There is such an emphasis on college that what ends up happening is the job market is saturated with college grads. Well, then what is the benefit of having a college degree if there's nothing to separate you from the competion who also have degrees? You have to one-up them by getting advanced degrees, i.e MBA's, PhD's, etc.

The only reason I'm going back to school is that you can't even compete without jumping through these hoops.

I wish there was a greater emphasis on trade schools. A crane operator makes anywhere from 75k-150k a year! That's rival to the salaries of most businessmen.

This illusion that we should go to college is not making a benefitting society nearly as much as it's making a more cutthroat one.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
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1/20/2011 2:04:05 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'm getting convinced that there is a serious problem with liberal arts education. The cost is incredible, and it seems to not teach much. I don't think that the education of scientists, engineers, architects, lawyers, or physicians is so bad, but I wonder about other areas. Certainly there shouldn't be public subsidy of students who learn little.

Grad schools in engineering and science in the U.S. are often dependent on foreign students to keep going. It's not looking good.

I don't agree it is all the schools' fault. They have responsibility for lowering standards. But too many students are expecting entertainment rather than education.
Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
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1/20/2011 2:39:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/20/2011 1:25:04 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 1/19/2011 10:39:38 PM, Grape wrote:
This is because of general degree inflation in the United States. A huge number of people go to college, and the majority of them are not that bright. Pretty much everyone of above average intelligence is going to college now, so before long almost everyone will have an undergrad degree and you'll be at a competitive disadvantage in the job market if you don't have one. Everyone drills into kids that you have to go to college to get a decent job, and it's kind of a self fulfilling prophecy. A large number of people that aren't very educated at all even have Master's degrees, because they need them to become teachers or whatever (depending on the state).

As said above, at elite/academically focused colleges it's probably not like this. Swarthmore is a hell of a lot different than Penn State.

Game theory: Signaling.

The theory goes that it is still logical to pursuit an education, even though you could learn nothing from education. Instead, education purpose is to weed out those who will not be able to graduate. The degree is just a signal. Employers will hire people with a degree since those with a degree signal they are smarter and generally better workers.

Now, the theory doesn't prove that you learn nothing from education, but it is plausible.

Dead on.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
LeafRod
Posts: 1,548
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1/20/2011 3:22:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/19/2011 10:39:38 PM, Grape wrote:
As said above, at elite/academically focused colleges it's probably not like this. Swarthmore is a hell of a lot different than Penn State.

Why would you choose such a horrendously terrible comparison to fuel your categorization?
LeafRod
Posts: 1,548
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1/20/2011 3:24:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/20/2011 2:04:05 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
Grad schools in engineering and science in the U.S. are often dependent on foreign students to keep going. It's not looking good.

Couldn't part of that be because many undergraduate engineers don't need to go to graduate school?
Grape
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1/20/2011 6:33:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/20/2011 3:22:50 PM, LeafRod wrote:
At 1/19/2011 10:39:38 PM, Grape wrote:
As said above, at elite/academically focused colleges it's probably not like this. Swarthmore is a hell of a lot different than Penn State.

Why would you choose such a horrendously terrible comparison to fuel your categorization?

I realize that Penn State is not that bad, but it's stereotypically the place where students spend a lot more time socializing than studying. Swarthmore is a small college with an engineering school and it's known for harsh grading and a hard workload. It has has a reputation, probably as undeserved as Penn's, for having students that are introspective/don't exactly party a lot. I don't think anyone who has heard of the two schools would miss the point I was making.

Would the University of Chicago and the University of Arizona have been a better comparison?
Caramel
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1/21/2011 2:39:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/20/2011 2:04:05 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
I'm getting convinced that there is a serious problem with liberal arts education. The cost is incredible, and it seems to not teach much. I don't think that the education of scientists, engineers, architects, lawyers, or physicians is so bad, but I wonder about other areas. Certainly there shouldn't be public subsidy of students who learn little.

Grad schools in engineering and science in the U.S. are often dependent on foreign students to keep going. It's not looking good.

I don't agree it is all the schools' fault. They have responsibility for lowering standards. But too many students are expecting entertainment rather than education.

Not surprising, since a liberal arts education is nearly 180 degrees to a conservative viewpoint.
no comment
askbob
Posts: 7,254
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1/21/2011 3:08:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/20/2011 6:33:03 PM, Grape wrote:
I realize that Penn State is not that bad, but it's stereotypically the place where students spend a lot more time socializing than studying.

Dude penn state is one of the best recruiting schools in the country, and its honors program ranks among the ivy leagues.
Me -Phil left the site in my charge. I have a recorded phone conversation to prove it.
kohai -If you're the owner, then do something useful like ip block him and get us away from juggle and on a dofferent host!
Me -haha you apparently don't know my history
Kohai - Maybe not, but that doesn't matter! You shoukd still listen to your community and quit being a tyrrant!
Me - i was being completely sarcastic
Kohai - then u misrepresented yourself by impersonating the owner—a violation of the tos
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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1/21/2011 3:14:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/21/2011 2:39:22 PM, Caramel wrote:
At 1/20/2011 2:04:05 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
I'm getting convinced that there is a serious problem with liberal arts education. The cost is incredible, and it seems to not teach much. I don't think that the education of scientists, engineers, architects, lawyers, or physicians is so bad, but I wonder about other areas. Certainly there shouldn't be public subsidy of students who learn little.

Grad schools in engineering and science in the U.S. are often dependent on foreign students to keep going. It's not looking good.

I don't agree it is all the schools' fault. They have responsibility for lowering standards. But too many students are expecting entertainment rather than education.

Not surprising, since a liberal arts education is nearly 180 degrees to a conservative viewpoint.

Um, the liberal arts have been taught since before liberal or conservative meant anything ideological.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
SuperRobotWars
Posts: 3,906
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1/21/2011 4:14:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/21/2011 3:14:23 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 1/21/2011 2:39:22 PM, Caramel wrote:
At 1/20/2011 2:04:05 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
I'm getting convinced that there is a serious problem with liberal arts education. The cost is incredible, and it seems to not teach much. I don't think that the education of scientists, engineers, architects, lawyers, or physicians is so bad, but I wonder about other areas. Certainly there shouldn't be public subsidy of students who learn little.

Grad schools in engineering and science in the U.S. are often dependent on foreign students to keep going. It's not looking good.

I don't agree it is all the schools' fault. They have responsibility for lowering standards. But too many students are expecting entertainment rather than education.

Not surprising, since a liberal arts education is nearly 180 degrees to a conservative viewpoint.

Um, the liberal arts have been taught since before liberal or conservative meant anything ideological.

This is why we need to show children that science pays more than becoming a pop star or some mess like that . . .
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: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
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LeafRod
Posts: 1,548
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1/22/2011 2:58:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/20/2011 6:33:03 PM, Grape wrote:
Would the University of Chicago and the University of Arizona have been a better comparison?

It definitely would have, even though I think your point is small-minded anyway.
annhasle
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1/22/2011 3:00:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/21/2011 6:59:13 PM, Dazedinday wrote:
Quote from the Big Bang Theory
"Only a Masters Degree? Oh, you feeble minded..."

My favorite is...

Wolowitz: "I have a Masters degree in Engineering!"
President of the University: "Who doesn't?"
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
Vi_Veri
Posts: 4,487
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1/22/2011 3:14:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/19/2011 11:08:29 PM, askbob wrote:
It's definitely the college and not the students.

Classrooms are small and crowded and most profs could care less about teaching it than they do research.

The only people who do learn anything are the people who teach themselves.

Furthermore the internet and ratings are enabling stupid students to avoid professors that make them work/study.

Agreed, though I would add much more to that list.
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nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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1/22/2011 3:47:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/22/2011 3:00:19 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 1/21/2011 6:59:13 PM, Dazedinday wrote:
Quote from the Big Bang Theory
"Only a Masters Degree? Oh, you feeble minded..."

My favorite is...

Wolowitz: "I have a Masters degree in Engineering!"
President of the University: "Who doesn't?"

+1 cool points.
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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1/22/2011 3:53:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/22/2011 3:47:45 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 1/22/2011 3:00:19 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 1/21/2011 6:59:13 PM, Dazedinday wrote:
Quote from the Big Bang Theory
"Only a Masters Degree? Oh, you feeble minded..."

My favorite is...

Wolowitz: "I have a Masters degree in Engineering!"
President of the University: "Who doesn't?"

+1 cool points.

YES!! I now have.... 1 cool point. :O
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
Caramel
Posts: 855
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1/22/2011 6:55:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/22/2011 3:53:06 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 1/22/2011 3:47:45 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 1/22/2011 3:00:19 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 1/21/2011 6:59:13 PM, Dazedinday wrote:
Quote from the Big Bang Theory
"Only a Masters Degree? Oh, you feeble minded..."

My favorite is...

Wolowitz: "I have a Masters degree in Engineering!"
President of the University: "Who doesn't?"

+1 cool points.

YES!! I now have.... 1 cool point. :O

*gives ann 9000 cool points that I had laying around just taking up space
no comment
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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1/22/2011 7:04:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/22/2011 6:55:26 PM, Caramel wrote:
At 1/22/2011 3:53:06 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 1/22/2011 3:47:45 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 1/22/2011 3:00:19 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 1/21/2011 6:59:13 PM, Dazedinday wrote:
Quote from the Big Bang Theory
"Only a Masters Degree? Oh, you feeble minded..."

My favorite is...

Wolowitz: "I have a Masters degree in Engineering!"
President of the University: "Who doesn't?"

+1 cool points.

YES!! I now have.... 1 cool point. :O

*gives ann 9000 cool points that I had laying around just taking up space

Haha! BOOYAH. I now have 9001 cool points. I knew I'd make it someday... ^_^
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
TheAntidoter
Posts: 4,323
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12/10/2012 2:38:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/22/2011 7:04:24 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 1/22/2011 6:55:26 PM, Caramel wrote:
At 1/22/2011 3:53:06 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 1/22/2011 3:47:45 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 1/22/2011 3:00:19 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 1/21/2011 6:59:13 PM, Dazedinday wrote:
Quote from the Big Bang Theory
"Only a Masters Degree? Oh, you feeble minded..."

My favorite is...

Wolowitz: "I have a Masters degree in Engineering!"
President of the University: "Who doesn't?"

+1 cool points.

YES!! I now have.... 1 cool point. :O

*gives ann 9000 cool points that I had laying around just taking up space

Haha! BOOYAH. I now have 9001 cool points. I knew I'd make it someday... ^_^

You are lucky I am not feeling like making a 6-year old joke today...
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FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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12/10/2012 2:58:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I'll just go ahead and post this.

In the US:

The median household income is $44,389.

The median individual income of someone with a bachelor's degree is $68,728.
Their average student loan debt was $23,118.

The median individual income of someone with a master's degree is $73,446.
Their average student loan debt was $31,031.

The median individual income of someone with a doctorate's degree is $96,830.
Their average student loan debt was $57,860.

The average time it took people to pay off their student loan was 10 years.

I think it's worth it.
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sadolite
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12/10/2012 4:40:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The four "R's" of education. Reduce,reuse, recycle and redistribute. Learn that and you have a proper education in these "changing times" All the rest is just phooey, just google it.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
Volkskorps
Posts: 61
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12/10/2012 10:41:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The economy today, unlike several decades ago, is increasingly reliant on the flow, provision, and allocation of intangible business information and requires less physically practical skills, such as marketers' ability to forecast, economists' ability to analyze, accountants' ability to communicate financial statements to shareholders and management, and finance departments' ability to manage cash flows instead of the production of solid and tangible resources.

If you go to a higher education institution and earn a degree with a major in finance, accounting, human resources, public administration, etc..., it might not be a waste of time or a rip of. I think it depends mostly on what you earn a degree in.

Students should try to strike a middle ground between their interests and the practicality and demand of their area of study and jobs related as a way to prevent their college years being "a waste of time and a rip off."
RedneckR0nin
Posts: 73
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12/12/2012 3:33:37 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/19/2011 8:59:20 PM, askbob wrote:
http://www.usatoday.com...

Discuss

I believe so in regards to most people....no to doctors,lawyers and other high grade professionals. I think college degrees are the major problem in the United States right now. Some guy or gal goes and gets a major in Latin American Lesbian communication and expects a office job making 100K a year. The middle class job market is rapidly disappearing ...leaving only high salary professionals and service industry. No one seems to have the patience to flip some burgers or manual labor anymore. I myself worked at McRottens as a youth, as well as had tons of low paying jobs from age 16-20...I know make between 250-450K in the oil industry. The only reason is because of my EXPERIENCE not because of a degree...and that for my age I have a mass of different experience....now I admit my burger flipping days didn't get me a job as a oil field consultant...but the inter personal skills I learnt at that job and more importantly learning what I did NOT want to be stuck doing motivated me to branch out and learn different things...I also had to work my bag off to get to where I am right now....and now my work weeks averages 96 hours minimum......I make more than my cousin who is one year older and just got out of post secondary two years ago and is now a surgeon...but again it took just as long as him in education...for me to obtain the needed experience to qualify me for the job I currently possess.

In a nut shell....if you go get a education besides for a high grade professional.....thinking it will ensure you a job.....you're a idiot..education is a life long process. All it will do...especially the more specialized it is...is give you a false sense of worth