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School days need to be lengthened for US

TMBTay
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2/4/2011 3:05:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
It is a proven fact that other places on Earth have higher education rates while the US is far behind. The day should be lengthened and with less interruption. They should start just 30 minutes or so earlier and go 30 minutes later than they do right now. If that happened maybe then we wouldnt be so dumb.
Taylor99
CosmicAlfonzo
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2/4/2011 3:08:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The system is inherently flawed, I don't think lengthening school days will fix that.

The only way our education system will work.. Is if it can teach kids to enjoy learning, and learn on their own. School needs to snap kids out of their hypnosis.

But the school system will not do this so long as the people who run it are under the hypnotic spell of everyday American life.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
SuperRobotWars
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2/4/2011 3:21:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Lengthening hours makes no difference we need to improve curriculum if we expect to see any results in the education of this nations youth.
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Ore_Ele
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2/4/2011 3:39:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/4/2011 3:21:11 PM, SuperRobotWars wrote:
Lengthening hours makes no difference we need to improve curriculum if we expect to see any results in the education of this nations youth.

We really need to do both. While improving the quality of our teaching is more important, there is still a need to expand the time in the class room.

A HS education should be good enough for a wide veriety of jobs. If it isn't then we need to up our k-12 education system. When everyone is going to college, it floods the market with college graduates, which in turn, makes that degree less meaningful to companies.

I personally think that everyone should get at least through Calculus by the end of 11th grade, as well as learning Biology, Chemistry, and Physics by then. And a veriety of other classes in History, English, Political Science, Personal Finance, etc. And the only way to get all of those in would be to extend school time (of course we need to get to a high quality with that). That way, 12th grade can be reserved for preparing for either the workforce, or for college entry, depending on the wishes of the family.

I'm a personal fan of year around school (with a 2 week break between each quarter), as well as classes that go from 7:30 am - 4:30 pm (that way, parents can hold a full time job without having to leave their kids un-supervised). But that is just me.
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I-am-a-panda
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2/4/2011 3:50:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/4/2011 3:39:25 PM, OreEle wrote:


I personally think that everyone should get at least through Calculus by the end of 11th grade, as well as learning Biology, Chemistry, and Physics by then. And a veriety of other classes in History, English, Political Science, Personal Finance, etc. And the only way to get all of those in would be to extend school time (of course we need to get to a high quality with that). That way, 12th grade can be reserved for preparing for either the workforce, or for college entry, depending on the wishes of the family.

I disagree with the principle of mandatory subjects. Each student is different and mandating subjects is a terrible idea. It leads to a resentment of the subject. If students are free to pick subjects they will take a greater interest in it, or at the least resentment is minimalised. I think the notion that students go in one end and are churned out the other knowing x, y and z. Students should have a greater degree of control in their own education. Ultimately they should study what they want to study based on the subjects given.

For instance, I don't do a Science this year and won't next year, because I don't like Science and it isn't required for any of my preferred college courses. Making me do Biology, Physics and Chemistry is ultimately counter-productive. I feel the U.S. has low science scores because students who aren't adept at science are forced to do it. They aren't the future scientists and thus should have no real bearing on the score.
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Grape
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2/4/2011 6:15:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/4/2011 3:39:25 PM, OreEle wrote:

I personally think that everyone should get at least through Calculus by the end of 11th grade, as well as learning Biology, Chemistry, and Physics by then. And a veriety of other classes in History, English, Political Science, Personal Finance, etc. And the only way to get all of those in would be to extend school time (of course we need to get to a high quality with that). That way, 12th grade can be reserved for preparing for either the workforce, or for college entry, depending on the wishes of the family.


This sounds like a great idea but I think it's far too idealistic. I am taking Calculus for the first time and I am in 12th grade. There are about 25 people who take it per year out of about 250 students, so only about 10% of kids take it at all. You need to complete the entire honors sequence and get a recommendation, and it has one of the lowest grade averages in the school.

Kids are too lazy, too stupid, and too poorly taught to really learn anything. The percentage of students in other upper division classes is much lower, especially in the sciences. AP Biology and AP World History are the hardest classes and they are taken at a rate of less than 5%. If everyone took them the failure rate would be over 90%, and the material is not difficult. The teachers and the students are just both so terrible.

I live in New York, which does well in academic studies and requires teachers to have an MA. My school is pretty damn average: medium sized, middle class, suburban, average SAT score around 1450/2400. There is very little educating going on. We need to work on teaching kids to read, write, and do simple math before we think about raising the standards.
Logic_on_rails
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2/4/2011 6:30:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
While I'm not exactly in the American education system, I know from my system that Grape is correct. The problem is that people don't want to learn and this makes it impossible to learn adequately from forced education.

The main problem is that students view school in a negative light and don't place education highly. Students are simply not listening to what the teachers are saying. Compounded by poor teaching and social pressure (the norm being to not listen in some cases) in some cases, makes the idea of forced teaching, as suggested by OreEle, flawed.

First people must respect education and learn the building blocks before we force higher standards upon them. Limiting the only subjects that students actually enjoy or an increase in hours of the subjects they dislike only serves to strengthen their disenchantment with education. That is the primary problem. It's not what not being taught, but what's not being heard that is the problem in many developed countries currently.
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
Grape
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2/4/2011 6:50:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The problem is that the incentive to do well in school is very weak. You will always be able to go a community college if you graduate, so kids will feel like they are on track no matter what. Of course, most of them drop out. Even if you don't go to college at all you will always be able to find a job you can live on. In the United States, the standard of living is high enough that kids from even a middle class background can't really fail.

Still, half of our graduates go to fairly unselective state colleges or unknown private schools to pursue a degree in pointlessness, because even if they tried they've never learned anything useful and they never will. Some of the smart kids go to schools like the RIT (Rochester, NY) and similar tech schools for engineering.

Ambition in general is pretty frowned upon. People think it's outrageous that I've taken every AP course (except art, I'm too inept). I'm a miles ahead of all but a few other students, and I will be the first to admit: I am lazy and I am not that smart. I usually blow off real work to read about things I'm more interested in and I still don't understand basic concepts like how trignomic identities are derived.

Our valedictorian is going to Le Moyne College. Never heard of it? No surprise there. No one wonders why our valedictorian is going to a school that accepts more than half of it's applicants, but when I say I would like to go to the University of Chicago, no one has heard of it. Ambition is positively unknown.
lewis20
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2/5/2011 3:08:56 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Its not that the school days aren't long enough, its that we don't really learn all that much in the time we are there. I'd go out on a limb to say most people who've gone through the U.S. k-12 system realize all they learned in high school could have been condensed into 2 years, obviously not counting the AP and college courses taken. If they treated classes more like college they would have a much better result. But when kids can go through high school with an A average and never take a book home or study for a test...Its obviously not because they weren't at school long enough. Its an issue of not pushing students. I imagine a big reason is because major emphasis is placed on graduation rates and not quality of education.
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CosmicAlfonzo
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2/5/2011 3:30:23 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Autodidacticism is the way, friends.

For our school system to be any good at all, it needs to be pushing people in that direction.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
theitalianstallion
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2/5/2011 2:26:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/4/2011 3:08:17 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
The system is inherently flawed, I don't think lengthening school days will fix that.

The only way our education system will work.. Is if it can teach kids to enjoy learning, and learn on their own. School needs to snap kids out of their hypnosis.

Completely agree with this. I am a senior in high school and have not enjoyed many of my classes; maybe one or two a year out of 6-8.

The thing that all of the classes I enjoyed had in common was that they all were somewhat hands on and the teacher made them seem relevant. Those classes are the ones I feel like I did the best in and got the most out of.

But the school system will not do this so long as the people who run it are under the hypnotic spell of everyday American life.
When Reach fell, I came.
InsertNameHere
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2/5/2011 2:30:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The entire public education system in the US is flawed; I doubt lengthening the days will change much. I have heard of Americans who can't even point out various states on a map let alone other countries, but I'm not sure if that's the US public schooling system or just their own stupidity. If it's the former then there needs to be massive reform, maybe privatization to provide more incentive for teachers to do a good job?
lewis20
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2/5/2011 2:33:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/5/2011 2:30:03 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
The entire public education system in the US is flawed; I doubt lengthening the days will change much. I have heard of Americans who can't even point out various states on a map let alone other countries, but I'm not sure if that's the US public schooling system or just their own stupidity. If it's the former then there needs to be massive reform, maybe privatization to provide more incentive for teachers to do a good job?

That one has got to be stupidity. Knowing all the states is just something you're bound to pick up, crappy education or not.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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2/5/2011 2:47:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/5/2011 2:33:17 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 2/5/2011 2:30:03 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
The entire public education system in the US is flawed; I doubt lengthening the days will change much. I have heard of Americans who can't even point out various states on a map let alone other countries, but I'm not sure if that's the US public schooling system or just their own stupidity. If it's the former then there needs to be massive reform, maybe privatization to provide more incentive for teachers to do a good job?

That one has got to be stupidity. Knowing all the states is just something you're bound to pick up, crappy education or not.

Must be, considering I'm not even American and can name the US states. I have always excelled in geography though so I could be an exception.
belle
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2/5/2011 3:15:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/5/2011 3:30:23 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Autodidacticism is the way, friends.

For our school system to be any good at all, it needs to be pushing people in that direction.

can the school system teach people to love to learn though? i doubt it... especially if students come in with the opposite attitude. at least some of the change needs to come from the parents teaching their children to value learning...
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
CosmicAlfonzo
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2/5/2011 3:24:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/5/2011 3:15:01 PM, belle wrote:
At 2/5/2011 3:30:23 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Autodidacticism is the way, friends.

For our school system to be any good at all, it needs to be pushing people in that direction.

can the school system teach people to love to learn though? i doubt it... especially if students come in with the opposite attitude. at least some of the change needs to come from the parents teaching their children to value learning...

I agree. Every part of a child's environment plays a part in this, and it is the most important thing they can learn.
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djsherin
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2/5/2011 7:48:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/4/2011 3:05:24 PM, TMBTay wrote:
It is a proven fact that other places on Earth have higher education rates while the US is far behind. The day should be lengthened and with less interruption. They should start just 30 minutes or so earlier and go 30 minutes later than they do right now. If that happened maybe then we wouldnt be so dumb.

Yes, if the school day was only an hour longer, then people wouldn't be so stupid.
Loserboi
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2/5/2011 11:38:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/5/2011 2:47:26 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 2/5/2011 2:33:17 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 2/5/2011 2:30:03 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
The entire public education system in the US is flawed; I doubt lengthening the days will change much. I have heard of Americans who can't even point out various states on a map let alone other countries, but I'm not sure if that's the US public schooling system or just their own stupidity. If it's the former then there needs to be massive reform, maybe privatization to provide more incentive for teachers to do a good job?

That one has got to be stupidity. Knowing all the states is just something you're bound to pick up, crappy education or not.

Must be, considering I'm not even American and can name the US states. I have always excelled in geography though so I could be an exception.

Geography is not important.

MATH is the only subject that needs to be rigorously drilled into kids lives. Teachers cannot willy nilly just pass kids in math courses. If a kid does not learn enough algebra how are they expected to pass adv algebra, then pre calculus then Calculus.
tyler90az
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2/6/2011 10:29:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
A passion for learning comes later in life for most. It is the school system and the parents job to persuasively teach them until they have a passion for learning. Most people don't have a passion for learning when they are 12-16.
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
askbob
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2/6/2011 10:32:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/4/2011 3:05:24 PM, TMBTay wrote:
It is a proven fact that other places on Earth have higher education rates while the US is far behind. The day should be lengthened and with less interruption. They should start just 30 minutes or so earlier and go 30 minutes later than they do right now. If that happened maybe then we wouldnt be so dumb.

Or maybe just remove all the useless garbage that we're teaching our kids
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jharry
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2/6/2011 10:40:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/6/2011 10:32:37 PM, askbob wrote:
At 2/4/2011 3:05:24 PM, TMBTay wrote:
It is a proven fact that other places on Earth have higher education rates while the US is far behind. The day should be lengthened and with less interruption. They should start just 30 minutes or so earlier and go 30 minutes later than they do right now. If that happened maybe then we wouldnt be so dumb.

Or maybe just remove all the useless garbage that we're teaching our kids

That is true. Some of the crap my kids are learning, well more along the lines of how they are learning it scares me. Not like I remember it.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
lewis20
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2/6/2011 11:25:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/6/2011 10:29:39 PM, tyler90az wrote:
A passion for learning comes later in life for most. It is the school system and the parents job to persuasively teach them until they have a passion for learning. Most people don't have a passion for learning when they are 12-16.

Thats very true.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
SuperRobotWars
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2/7/2011 7:53:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
We need to begin teaching middle school level subjects in elementary schools, high school level subjects in middle schools, and college level subjects in high school, we must introduce Chinese, Japanese, Egyptian, Latin, Arabic, Hindi, German, and Spanish as mandatory second languages starting in kindergarten in school as well as the starting of school later in the day so students get more sleep. We should slave drive students to the point of having their brains explode and if they refuse to complete work we force them to construct pyramids [and I am not joking about the pyramids], we make T.V. much more educational and ban channels that perpetuate the ideology of stupid [I'm talking to you MTV] and place a greater emphasis on science, we must also increase the amounts of hands on education. Ingrain into their heads "Failure is not an option and if you think it is we will use you as slave labor and stone you to death".
Minister Of Trolling
: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
:
: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.
alto2osu
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2/8/2011 1:54:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
1) ^ Lol at SuperRobotWars. As a teacher, I'd love to enforce that on my current students, who take a lack of love of learning to whole new levels.

2) Lengthening the school day would, according to both practical knowledge and educational research, most likely hurt our ability to learn. Tbh, I do prefer the GB model of education, which gets kids into specialization sooner and encourages exploration of career options earlier than bloody well 18 or 19 years old. I don't mind the US educational standards movement at all, as at least we are working towards SOMETHING, but because education is a state's right, we've got 50 states with different standards and little to no proper oversight on how to get kids to meet them. Furthermore, teachers aren't given the resources most of the time to actually meet those standards. Like, I have literature standards to meet, but my school won't give me materials. Textbooks, pl0x? If we bothered to respect the education system more than our defense budget, we'd have more well-rounded, educated Americans.

3) Privatization is bad news all around. Besides the fact that I would argue education as a right of any citizen in the US (and privatization would inherently rob people of that right unfairly), there's the issue of failing to educate an entire sector of the population, and what that in turn does to the economy. It's bad enough that we have so many Americans who are not educated by choice. Imagine if we added to that by force. Furthermore, that'd just stratify the quality of education even more than it is now.

The way I see it, there is culturally agreed upon knowledge that schools should be used to transmit. And it's not all curriculum. However, that transmission can only occur when we bother to put the money necessary into teachers and schools. Furthermore, teachers and administrators need far stricter oversight in terms of professional conduct. They can skate by with so little effort that it's no wonder our students can actually leave high school without knowing how to read.
CosmicAlfonzo
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2/8/2011 2:28:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I don't think throwing more money at the problem is the right approach. We need a better teaching method.

There probably isn't much you can do.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
alto2osu
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2/8/2011 3:31:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Well, to be fair, I will agree (as I stated earlier) that we allow far too many incompetent teachers into classrooms in the United States. But the teaching method is irrelevant at the point where we don't give schools the funding they need to purchase adequate materials to support the method. Like, most of the best teaching universities in the nation all espouse pretty good, research-based methods for teaching. I think that the movement towards constructivism is a huge mistake, but then again I'm a huge fan of essentialist structure. Charters school, in general, can suck me for all the good they do, especially the Dewey ones. That aside, the method could be fantastic, but if the materials don't match it, it has no chance of success. For example, I firmly believe that certain canonical works of English should be taught in every school in the US. Language and its many usages and nuances make or break a culture, and teaching kids to think abstractly through literary study and diverse reading not only improves their writing skills and vocabulary, but makes them better oral communicators as well. However, if my broke a$$ podunk school can't afford to buy me 30 copies of the novels I need, my method will fail miserably. We have trazillions of copies of god damned Louis Lamour (I kid you not...), but not a single copy of Fahrenheit 451. What is that?
Aibohphobia
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2/8/2011 10:26:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/8/2011 3:31:43 PM, alto2osu wrote:
Well, to be fair, I will agree (as I stated earlier) that we allow far too many incompetent teachers into classrooms in the United States. But the teaching method is irrelevant at the point where we don't give schools the funding they need to purchase adequate materials to support the method. Like, most of the best teaching universities in the nation all espouse pretty good, research-based methods for teaching. I think that the movement towards constructivism is a huge mistake, but then again I'm a huge fan of essentialist structure. Charters school, in general, can suck me for all the good they do, especially the Dewey ones. That aside, the method could be fantastic, but if the materials don't match it, it has no chance of success. For example, I firmly believe that certain canonical works of English should be taught in every school in the US. Language and its many usages and nuances make or break a culture, and teaching kids to think abstractly through literary study and diverse reading not only improves their writing skills and vocabulary, but makes them better oral communicators as well. However, if my broke a$$ podunk school can't afford to buy me 30 copies of the novels I need, my method will fail miserably. We have trazillions of copies of god damned Louis Lamour (I kid you not...), but not a single copy of Fahrenheit 451. What is that?

Agree x 1000

The AP biology teacher at my school is the WORST teacher I have ever met in my life. She has had a pass rate of less than 10% two years in a row, and she's still teaching the class. She's also a horrible teacher for normal Bio as well, but she can't be fired for poor performance. We seriously need some education reform.
InsertNameHere
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2/8/2011 10:30:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/5/2011 11:38:53 PM, Loserboi wrote:

Geography is not important.

MATH is the only subject that needs to be rigorously drilled into kids lives. Teachers cannot willy nilly just pass kids in math courses. If a kid does not learn enough algebra how are they expected to pass adv algebra, then pre calculus then Calculus.

That's true. However, I was terrible at math all throughout school yet somehow I still passed. Half the stuff you learn in math in school isn't even applicable to real life anyway unless you go into some kind of career that requires extensive math skills. I always thought being an architect would be cool, but I don't have the appropriate math skills for that nor do I have the capacity to learn them.
Aibohphobia
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2/8/2011 10:34:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/8/2011 10:30:31 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 2/5/2011 11:38:53 PM, Loserboi wrote:

Geography is not important.

MATH is the only subject that needs to be rigorously drilled into kids lives. Teachers cannot willy nilly just pass kids in math courses. If a kid does not learn enough algebra how are they expected to pass adv algebra, then pre calculus then Calculus.

That's true. However, I was terrible at math all throughout school yet somehow I still passed. Half the stuff you learn in math in school isn't even applicable to real life anyway unless you go into some kind of career that requires extensive math skills. I always thought being an architect would be cool, but I don't have the appropriate math skills for that nor do I have the capacity to learn them.

Algebra is fairly useful for problem solving and at my school math is only required through Algebra 2. I will agree that much of the math you learn in school is for specific career paths, but I've always thought of high school as allowing kids to explore into many various fields to determine their interests and find a direction for their career choice.