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Illuminatus! vs Atlas Shrugged

Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
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3/13/2013 7:27:33 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
"At one point, a character fucks a giant apple.

No-one fucks any apples."

That's all I needed to know to decide which one to read.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,286
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3/13/2013 4:58:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
"No one fucks any apples" is probably the best blurb I've ever read. It should be on the book jacket.

I do think it's weird how people think the Rand is anti-Proletariat. Pretty much EVERY VILLAIN in her books is filthy rich. She was anti-Oligarch, if anything.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
charleslb
Posts: 4,740
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3/14/2013 1:37:34 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/13/2013 4:58:54 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
"No one fucks any apples" is probably the best blurb I've ever read. It should be on the book jacket.

I do think it's weird how people think the Rand is anti-Proletariat. Pretty much EVERY VILLAIN in her books is filthy rich. She was anti-Oligarch, if anything.

Ah, but you're thinking with a normal and decent mentality; perhaps the late and not-so-great-as-a-philosopher-or-a-human-being author in question, as a great many of her critics of both the leftist and moderate persuasion and have alleged, had a somewhat twisted mentality that didn't view the capitalist villainy portrayed in her books as villainy at all. At any rate, she certainly wasn't "anti-oligarch" (she actually developed a ragingly herrenmoral philosophy that perceived the proletariat with pitiless contempt and cast capitalists in the role of an aristocratic class of virtual Nietzschen supermen possessed of an entitlement to lord their superiority over the lesser beings populating the working class), but with sympathizers like her our capitalist oligarchs most certainly don't need enemies like little ole me.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
charleslb
Posts: 4,740
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3/14/2013 1:43:07 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Typo correction, "... as a great many of her critics of both the leftist and moderate persuasion and have alleged, had a somewhat twisted mentality ..." obviously contains an out-of-place "and", it should read: "... as a great many of her critics of both the leftist and moderate persuasion have alleged, had a somewhat twisted mentality ..."
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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3/14/2013 1:51:19 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/13/2013 7:27:33 AM, Kinesis wrote:
"At one point, a character fucks a giant apple.

No-one fucks any apples."

That's all I needed to know to decide which one to read.

I remember that part too. Thing is, you could pick out a million other parts just as absurd. It's non-stop awesome.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,286
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3/14/2013 5:03:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/14/2013 1:37:34 AM, charleslb wrote:
At 3/13/2013 4:58:54 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
"No one fucks any apples" is probably the best blurb I've ever read. It should be on the book jacket.

I do think it's weird how people think the Rand is anti-Proletariat. Pretty much EVERY VILLAIN in her books is filthy rich. She was anti-Oligarch, if anything.

Ah, but you're thinking with a normal and decent mentality; perhaps the late and not-so-great-as-a-philosopher-or-a-human-being author in question, as a great many of her critics of both the leftist and moderate persuasion and have alleged, had a somewhat twisted mentality that didn't view the capitalist villainy portrayed in her books as villainy at all. At any rate, she certainly wasn't "anti-oligarch" (she actually developed a ragingly herrenmoral philosophy that perceived the proletariat with pitiless contempt and cast capitalists in the role of an aristocratic class of virtual Nietzschen supermen possessed of an entitlement to lord their superiority over the lesser beings populating the working class), but with sympathizers like her our capitalist oligarchs most certainly don't need enemies like little ole me.

I don't think you've read anything by Rand. I meant that the villains, the men who Rand considered villains and wanted to portray as villains, were filthy rich. Orren Boyle, James Taggart, Elsworth Toohey, Wesley Mouch, Peter Keating, Robert Stadler and Lillian Rearden were all unbelievably wealthy. The idea that her heroes lord over others, or that she has a disdain for poor people is silly, considering in the first paragraph of her magnum opus one of the protagonists gives a beggar money to buy a cup of coffee, and Dagny Taggart stops her employees from throwing a stowaway off of her train. Howard Roark in the Fountainhead spends most of the story dirt poor, letting other people reap the monetary benefits of his work, but is considered a hero because he dedicates himself to creativity and never compromises his integrity. In that book the character Gail Wynand, who does fit your description, is a tragic character who seeks to wield power over the public through a media empire but is destroyed in the end because it is not power or money which is the mark of a great man, it is creative genius. Money is just a tool in the pursuit of it and a symbol of it.

"Stand here, he thought, and count the lighted windows of a city. You cannot do it. But behind each yellow rectangle that climbs, one over another, to the sky - under each bulb - down to there, see that spark over the river which is not a star? - there are people whom you will never see and who are your masters. At the supper tables, in the drawing rooms, in their beds and in their cellars, in their studies and in their bathrooms. Speeding in the subways under your feet. Crawling up in elevators through vertical cracks around you. Jolting past you in every bus. Your masters, Gail Wynand. There is a net - longer than the cables that coil through the walls of this city, larger than the mesh of pipes that carry water, gas and refuse - there is another hidden net around you; it is strapped to you, and the wires lead to every hand in the city. They jerked the wires and you moved. You were a ruler of men. You held a leash. A leash is only a rope with a noose at both ends."
- The Fountainhead -
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
charleslb
Posts: 4,740
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3/14/2013 6:04:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/14/2013 5:03:04 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 3/14/2013 1:37:34 AM, charleslb wrote:
At 3/13/2013 4:58:54 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
"No one fucks any apples" is probably the best blurb I've ever read. It should be on the book jacket.

I do think it's weird how people think the Rand is anti-Proletariat. Pretty much EVERY VILLAIN in her books is filthy rich. She was anti-Oligarch, if anything.

Ah, but you're thinking with a normal and decent mentality; perhaps the late and not-so-great-as-a-philosopher-or-a-human-being author in question, as a great many of her critics of both the leftist and moderate persuasion and have alleged, had a somewhat twisted mentality that didn't view the capitalist villainy portrayed in her books as villainy at all. At any rate, she certainly wasn't "anti-oligarch" (she actually developed a ragingly herrenmoral philosophy that perceived the proletariat with pitiless contempt and cast capitalists in the role of an aristocratic class of virtual Nietzschen supermen possessed of an entitlement to lord their superiority over the lesser beings populating the working class), but with sympathizers like her our capitalist oligarchs most certainly don't need enemies like little ole me.

I don't think you've read anything by Rand. I meant that the villains, the men who Rand considered villains and wanted to portray as villains, were filthy rich. Orren Boyle, James Taggart, Elsworth Toohey, Wesley Mouch, Peter Keating, Robert Stadler and Lillian Rearden were all unbelievably wealthy. The idea that her heroes lord over others, or that she has a disdain for poor people is silly, considering in the first paragraph of her magnum opus one of the protagonists gives a beggar money to buy a cup of coffee, and Dagny Taggart stops her employees from throwing a stowaway off of her train. Howard Roark in the Fountainhead spends most of the story dirt poor, letting other people reap the monetary benefits of his work, but is considered a hero because he dedicates himself to creativity and never compromises his integrity. In that book the character Gail Wynand, who does fit your description, is a tragic character who seeks to wield power over the public through a media empire but is destroyed in the end because it is not power or money which is the mark of a great man, it is creative genius. Money is just a tool in the pursuit of it and a symbol of it.

"Stand here, he thought, and count the lighted windows of a city. You cannot do it. But behind each yellow rectangle that climbs, one over another, to the sky - under each bulb - down to there, see that spark over the river which is not a star? - there are people whom you will never see and who are your masters. At the supper tables, in the drawing rooms, in their beds and in their cellars, in their studies and in their bathrooms. Speeding in the subways under your feet. Crawling up in elevators through vertical cracks around you. Jolting past you in every bus. Your masters, Gail Wynand. There is a net - longer than the cables that coil through the walls of this city, larger than the mesh of pipes that carry water, gas and refuse - there is another hidden net around you; it is strapped to you, and the wires lead to every hand in the city. They jerked the wires and you moved. You were a ruler of men. You held a leash. A leash is only a rope with a noose at both ends."
- The Fountainhead -

Actually, I've read Rand, and like a great many others - the vast majority of people who are at all familiar with her philosophy, including, I'm sure, a good many "objectivists" - I would still beg to disagree with your assessment. Well, if there are any "objectivists" interested in doing so I'll allow them to take on the task of correcting your view.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.