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Did Khal Drogo Rape Daenerys Targaryen?

wrichcirw
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5/14/2014 6:02:36 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
This thread is set up for discussion of an ensuing debate on the topic. The debate was the result of a conversation I had with a person who had watched only the first two episodes of the series, and concluded that Daenerys was raped. IMHO she simply wasn't, although having a debate with this person would be unfair considering lack of exposure to the series.

The debate is about the TV series and not the books, as the two are materially different.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
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5/14/2014 6:13:18 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
The debate is here:

http://www.debate.org...
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Owlz
Posts: 49
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5/14/2014 1:44:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
This is actually a very interesting topic. I recently binge watched up to the most recent episode (season 4 episode 5, I think?). When I had seen the "rape" scene talked about I had initially thought she was raped. And by modern laws I believe I would be correct. But the debate specifies the Tv show's laws will be used instead. I would have to agree with you and your opening argument that by those laws she was not raped. So, no, I wont be taking this debate. Just wanted to let you know I found this pretty interesting. You know, about the whole "consummation of marriage" thing you brought up.
wrichcirw
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5/15/2014 3:22:24 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/14/2014 1:44:00 PM, Owlz wrote:
This is actually a very interesting topic. I recently binge watched up to the most recent episode (season 4 episode 5, I think?). When I had seen the "rape" scene talked about I had initially thought she was raped. And by modern laws I believe I would be correct. But the debate specifies the Tv show's laws will be used instead. I would have to agree with you and your opening argument that by those laws she was not raped. So, no, I wont be taking this debate. Just wanted to let you know I found this pretty interesting. You know, about the whole "consummation of marriage" thing you brought up.

lol, I went through the binge sessions last season. =)

This made me realize that I'd be up for debating a myriad of topics on the series...

It's interesting though...if you only went by a modern conception of rape, then King Joffrey was about to be technically raped (statutory rape) by Margeary Tyrell on his wedding night, lol. No matter how many people probably wanted him to get raped, it's hard to imagine Margeary raping him and not the other way around...
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
rross
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5/15/2014 8:45:55 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
So...

In the debate you say,

"For this debate, the modern legal definition of rape is not valid... instead rape will be determined by the accepted standards of the television series."

You're setting up moral relativism with a totally fictional world.

I could imagine a world where violent man-hating women are in power, and it's perfectly legal and acceptable to castrate men and make them eat their d1cks. So it's not assault. Then, I could film it graphically, pop it on TV, and say, "oh well. I'm not talking about modern standards for assault. What matters are the norms in this fictional world I've created."

Well, of course I wouldn't make that argument because firstly I'm not a psychopath and secondly because it's RIDICULOUS.

Game of Thrones is written and produces within US culture for a modern US audience. The rape scene was rape according to our standards and enjoyed by people sitting on their couches in the evening as light entertainment. The standards of our society are relevant.

Consummation

So you're saying that a marriage requires consummation to exist in the norms of the fictional world. OK fine. There that girl wasn't married until she had sex and she was married after.

I don't see what that has to do with consent, however. At any point in the marriage ceremony, she's entitled to say no. In our culture, a woman isn't married just because she puts on a wedding dress and picks up a bunch of flowers, for example. There have to be vows and she has to sign (I think).

In your argument, sex signifies marriage, and so either party may refuse to have sex and thereby refuse to have marriage. You say Daenerys agreed to marriage - but if part of that is agreeing to have sex, then she didn't agree in the TV series.

Sex without consent is still rape, and this argument about consummation makes no difference at all.
wrichcirw
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5/15/2014 9:30:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/15/2014 8:45:55 AM, rross wrote:
So...

In the debate you say,

"For this debate, the modern legal definition of rape is not valid... instead rape will be determined by the accepted standards of the television series."

You're setting up moral relativism with a totally fictional world.

I could imagine a world where violent man-hating women are in power, and it's perfectly legal and acceptable to castrate men and make them eat their d1cks. So it's not assault. Then, I could film it graphically, pop it on TV, and say, "oh well. I'm not talking about modern standards for assault. What matters are the norms in this fictional world I've created."

Well, of course I wouldn't make that argument because firstly I'm not a psychopath and secondly because it's RIDICULOUS.

Game of Thrones is written and produces within US culture for a modern US audience. The rape scene was rape according to our standards and enjoyed by people sitting on their couches in the evening as light entertainment. The standards of our society are relevant.

I've already made the point that King Joffrey would have been raped by anyone he had sex with according to modern standards, and I'm sure that most people would find it surprising that Joffrey did not rape others instead of being raped.

Similarly, according to modern standards, Oskar Schindler would have been seen as an immoral sweatshop owner that utilized child labor for his ends. The standards of our society are NOT relevant when viewing period pieces. The prevalent morality of that time and age MUST be taken into account.

George Washington owned slaves. Did that make him an immoral man according to the standards of his age? No.

Consummation

So you're saying that a marriage requires consummation to exist in the norms of the fictional world. OK fine. There that girl wasn't married until she had sex and she was married after.

I don't see what that has to do with consent, however. At any point in the marriage ceremony, she's entitled to say no. In our culture, a woman isn't married just because she puts on a wedding dress and picks up a bunch of flowers, for example. There have to be vows and she has to sign (I think).

She consented to the marriage. Did you miss that part? That consent was expressed BEFORE the marriage ceremony, which occurred BEFORE the ostensible rape.

In your argument, sex signifies marriage, and so either party may refuse to have sex and thereby refuse to have marriage. You say Daenerys agreed to marriage - but if part of that is agreeing to have sex, then she didn't agree in the TV series.

No, this is not my argument. Consummation of a marriage is an integral part of what it means to be married, but sex does NOT signify marriage. There are plenty of bastards in the Game of Thrones setting...these bastards are products of sex OUTSIDE marriage.

Sex without consent is still rape, and this argument about consummation makes no difference at all.

Consent to marriage is consent to consummation.

The argument makes no difference at all to any modern conception of marriage, because modern conceptions of marriage do not take consummation into account.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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5/15/2014 9:35:58 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/15/2014 8:45:55 AM, rross wrote:

I could imagine a world where violent man-hating women are in power, and it's perfectly legal and acceptable to castrate men and make them eat their d1cks. So it's not assault. Then, I could film it graphically, pop it on TV, and say, "oh well. I'm not talking about modern standards for assault. What matters are the norms in this fictional world I've created."

There is a scene in Game of Thrones where this exact scenario is teased...Ramsey Snow does indeed castrate Theon Greyjoy and in the next scene he is eating something that very much looks like a penis.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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5/15/2014 9:37:24 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/15/2014 9:35:58 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 5/15/2014 8:45:55 AM, rross wrote:

I could imagine a world where violent man-hating women are in power, and it's perfectly legal and acceptable to castrate men and make them eat their d1cks. So it's not assault. Then, I could film it graphically, pop it on TV, and say, "oh well. I'm not talking about modern standards for assault. What matters are the norms in this fictional world I've created."

There is a scene in Game of Thrones where this exact scenario is teased...Ramsey Snow does indeed castrate Theon Greyjoy and in the next scene he is eating something that very much looks like a penis.

Since you're reading the books, I must inform you that in the books (excluded from the television series) one of the characters is made to eat his amputated limbs.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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5/15/2014 9:38:24 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/15/2014 9:37:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 5/15/2014 9:35:58 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 5/15/2014 8:45:55 AM, rross wrote:

I could imagine a world where violent man-hating women are in power, and it's perfectly legal and acceptable to castrate men and make them eat their d1cks. So it's not assault. Then, I could film it graphically, pop it on TV, and say, "oh well. I'm not talking about modern standards for assault. What matters are the norms in this fictional world I've created."

There is a scene in Game of Thrones where this exact scenario is teased...Ramsey Snow does indeed castrate Theon Greyjoy and in the next scene he is eating something that very much looks like a penis.

Since you're reading the books, I must inform you that in the books (excluded from the television series) one of the characters is made to eat his amputated limbs.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org...
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
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5/15/2014 9:52:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/15/2014 8:45:55 AM, rross wrote:
So...

In the debate you say,

"For this debate, the modern legal definition of rape is not valid... instead rape will be determined by the accepted standards of the television series."

You're setting up moral relativism with a totally fictional world.

sigh...perhaps one day (and I hope for your sake that day comes soon) you will realize that unlike most fantasy fiction, this particular set of books is very much known for its realism:

In Q&A with New York Times over whether all the rape had gotten a touch gratuitous, Martin said:

An artist has an obligation to tell the truth. My novels are epic fantasy, but they are inspired by and grounded in history. Rape and sexual violence have been a part of every war ever fought, from the ancient Sumerians to our present day. To omit them from a narrative centered on war and power would have been fundamentally false and dishonest, and would have undermined one of the themes of the books: that the true horrors of human history derive not from orcs and Dark Lords, but from ourselves

http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com...

http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com...;
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
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5/15/2014 10:03:19 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/15/2014 8:45:55 AM, rross wrote:
So...

In the debate you say,

"For this debate, the modern legal definition of rape is not valid... instead rape will be determined by the accepted standards of the television series."

You're setting up moral relativism with a totally fictional world.

Just to further shake you out of whatever constitutes your position:

In both the TV series and in the books, Joffrey is betrothed to Sansa Stark. This is seen as a wonderful affair until we learn more about Joffrey's...proclivities.

Both are underage...by modern standards, it would have been statutory rape by both parties. Do blogs go on about this arranged rape? No. Why? Because they are astute enough to understand that in the setting of Game of Thrones, age of consent is not nearly as strict as it is in modern societies...I don't even know what the standards are for boys in that setting - for girls, it's clearly the onset of puberty, which again by modern standards is considered statutory rape.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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5/15/2014 10:09:13 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/15/2014 10:03:19 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 5/15/2014 8:45:55 AM, rross wrote:
So...

In the debate you say,

"For this debate, the modern legal definition of rape is not valid... instead rape will be determined by the accepted standards of the television series."

You're setting up moral relativism with a totally fictional world.

Just to further shake you out of whatever constitutes your position:

In both the TV series and in the books, Joffrey is betrothed to Sansa Stark. This is seen as a wonderful affair until we learn more about Joffrey's...proclivities.

Both are underage...by modern standards, it would have been statutory rape by both parties. Do blogs go on about this arranged rape? No. Why? Because they are astute enough to understand that in the setting of Game of Thrones, age of consent is not nearly as strict as it is in modern societies...I don't even know what the standards are for boys in that setting - for girls, it's clearly the onset of puberty, which again by modern standards is considered statutory rape.

I will add that according to modern standards, by just the two episodes of the first season you've already seen, all of the Starks, Lannisters, and Baratheons would have been thrown into prison for condoning and arranging for a marriage between two minors.

Where is your "modern" sense of outrage? Are you that superficial to only be offended by the image of consensual sex while being completely oblivious to planned, arranged, statutory rape by the ostensible "heroes" of the show?
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
rross
Posts: 2,772
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5/15/2014 10:25:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/15/2014 9:30:31 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 5/15/2014 8:45:55 AM, rross wrote:
So...

In the debate you say,

"For this debate, the modern legal definition of rape is not valid... instead rape will be determined by the accepted standards of the television series."

You're setting up moral relativism with a totally fictional world.

I could imagine a world where violent man-hating women are in power, and it's perfectly legal and acceptable to castrate men and make them eat their d1cks. So it's not assault. Then, I could film it graphically, pop it on TV, and say, "oh well. I'm not talking about modern standards for assault. What matters are the norms in this fictional world I've created."

Well, of course I wouldn't make that argument because firstly I'm not a psychopath and secondly because it's RIDICULOUS.

Game of Thrones is written and produces within US culture for a modern US audience. The rape scene was rape according to our standards and enjoyed by people sitting on their couches in the evening as light entertainment. The standards of our society are relevant.

I've already made the point that King Joffrey would have been raped by anyone he had sex with according to modern standards, and I'm sure that most people would find it surprising that Joffrey did not rape others instead of being raped.

Similarly, according to modern standards, Oskar Schindler would have been seen as an immoral sweatshop owner that utilized child labor for his ends. The standards of our society are NOT relevant when viewing period pieces. The prevalent morality of that time and age MUST be taken into account.

George Washington owned slaves. Did that make him an immoral man according to the standards of his age? No.

Consummation

So you're saying that a marriage requires consummation to exist in the norms of the fictional world. OK fine. There that girl wasn't married until she had sex and she was married after.

I don't see what that has to do with consent, however. At any point in the marriage ceremony, she's entitled to say no. In our culture, a woman isn't married just because she puts on a wedding dress and picks up a bunch of flowers, for example. There have to be vows and she has to sign (I think).

She consented to the marriage. Did you miss that part? That consent was expressed BEFORE the marriage ceremony, which occurred BEFORE the ostensible rape.

In your argument, sex signifies marriage, and so either party may refuse to have sex and thereby refuse to have marriage. You say Daenerys agreed to marriage - but if part of that is agreeing to have sex, then she didn't agree in the TV series.

No, this is not my argument. Consummation of a marriage is an integral part of what it means to be married, but sex does NOT signify marriage. There are plenty of bastards in the Game of Thrones setting...these bastards are products of sex OUTSIDE marriage.

Sex without consent is still rape, and this argument about consummation makes no difference at all.

Consent to marriage is consent to consummation.

The argument makes no difference at all to any modern conception of marriage, because modern conceptions of marriage do not take consummation into account.

I think I understand the point you're trying to make. It reminds me of the first time I went skydiving. You have to climb out under the wing of the plane, then you do the checks, and you count to three and jump off. Anyway. I climbed out under the wing, did the checks, then said "ONE - I can't do this." and my instructor shouted "TWO THREE" and threw me off.

I was enormously grateful to him afterwards, because all the other beginners were these arrogant preppy boys, and imagine if I'd been the only one not to jump! And I suppose the situation implied consent because I'd paid all the money, done the two days of training, put on the outfit, gone up in plane, climbed out under the wing. All this made it clear that I wanted to jump.

On the other hand, at that moment, after I said one, I really didn't want to, which brings up an interesting issue of different selves. That is, because I was in a state of fear, was I really myself? Had I really withdrawn consent? etc.

But I think that skydiving and marriage differ in significant ways.

The first is timing. I had to jump then and there or not at all. A marriage can take a few days or weeks or months to reach consummation.

Second, I'm guessing my instructor had a lot of experience with beginners panicking at the last minute. But a bridegroom wouldn't have had lots of experience with child brides.

Third, I'd just been through two days of training which went through every aspect of the jump in detail several times. So he knew that I knew what was involved. A bridegroom has no idea what a bride knows or doesn't know in relation to sex, and so can't assume consent for every part of it.

Think of it this way. Suppose in our culture, that a wedding is complete when the vows are stated and the registry is signed. Imagine that a bride and her parents spent $100,000 dollars on a lavish wedding, hundreds of guests are there, the ceremony goes without a hitch, until it's time to sign the registry, and the groom suddenly declines to do it. He's changed his mind.

Would the bride be justified in forcing his hand and making him sign? Or holding a gun to his head? Or forging his signature?

See, no. She wouldn't be justfied, because consent can be withdrawn at any time. She might be justified trying to sue him for part of the costs of the wedding, but he is not obliged to marry her if he changes his mind.

It's exactly the same with this consummation idea. The bride can refuse to have sex. Maybe she's just tired and wants to delay it. Maybe she will never want to have sex. Either way, if the groom forces her then it's rape.

It's a simple idea, really. I'm actually kind of baffled by your objections.
wrichcirw
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5/16/2014 2:11:36 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/15/2014 10:25:43 PM, rross wrote:
At 5/15/2014 9:30:31 AM, wrichcirw wrote:

Consent to marriage is consent to consummation.

The argument makes no difference at all to any modern conception of marriage, because modern conceptions of marriage do not take consummation into account.

I think I understand the point you're trying to make. It reminds me of the first time I went skydiving. You have to climb out under the wing of the plane, then you do the checks, and you count to three and jump off. Anyway. I climbed out under the wing, did the checks, then said "ONE - I can't do this." and my instructor shouted "TWO THREE" and threw me off.

I was enormously grateful to him afterwards, because all the other beginners were these arrogant preppy boys, and imagine if I'd been the only one not to jump! And I suppose the situation implied consent because I'd paid all the money, done the two days of training, put on the outfit, gone up in plane, climbed out under the wing. All this made it clear that I wanted to jump.

On the other hand, at that moment, after I said one, I really didn't want to, which brings up an interesting issue of different selves. That is, because I was in a state of fear, was I really myself? Had I really withdrawn consent? etc.

But I think that skydiving and marriage differ in significant ways.

The first is timing. I had to jump then and there or not at all. A marriage can take a few days or weeks or months to reach consummation.

The show is clear that marriages are expected to be consummated that same evening. There is a bedding ceremony that typically occurs immediately after the wedding ceremony. Apparently the friends of both the bride and the bridegroom watch the act.

There must be a good reason for a marriage to not be consummated. The only marriages in the show that weren't consummated that same evening were Joffrey's marriage to Margeary (he was killed in the wedding ceremony) and Tyrion's marriage to Sansa. Tyrion brought up that it would be rape and that he'd only bed her if she wanted it, but as I stated in the debate, she had no choice to the marriage to begin with. The show never filmed the scene where Tyrion approaches Sansa with the marriage "proposal" - they purposely cut that out, probably because they knew that filming a demand like that would be...unpleasant.

Hell, even the marriage in the Red Wedding was consummated.

Second, I'm guessing my instructor had a lot of experience with beginners panicking at the last minute. But a bridegroom wouldn't have had lots of experience with child brides.

To make the analogy valid, you'd have to equate jumping out of the plane with having sex with the bridegroom. Your instructor would be synonymous to the various people advising Daenerys on her marriage, so in her case, her brother Viserys and her patron Illyrio. Viserys is an idiot, no question, but Illyrio is not.

Unlike you, Daenerys did not need to be shoved out of that plane...she jumped willingly. Instead, she pissed in her pants while in freefall.

Third, I'd just been through two days of training which went through every aspect of the jump in detail several times. So he knew that I knew what was involved. A bridegroom has no idea what a bride knows or doesn't know in relation to sex, and so can't assume consent for every part of it.

Evidently Daenerys knew exactly what was expected of her on her wedding day. She didn't ask any questions and did her duty, albeit reluctantly.

Think of it this way. Suppose in our culture, that a wedding is complete when the vows are stated and the registry is signed. Imagine that a bride and her parents spent $100,000 dollars on a lavish wedding, hundreds of guests are there, the ceremony goes without a hitch, until it's time to sign the registry, and the groom suddenly declines to do it. He's changed his mind.

Would the bride be justified in forcing his hand and making him sign? Or holding a gun to his head? Or forging his signature?

What you're referring to is much more a procedure in order to bind a contract. There are no terms to the contract other than the wedding vows and such.

In the series, the contractual nature of the marriage is clear. Viserys AND Daenerys fully expected that their political union with Khal Drogo's tribe would result in Drogo's army becoming the tool by which the Targaryen children reclaim the Westeros throne.

Without the marriage being consummated, Drogo is under no obligation to fulfill his end of the agreement.

Drogo's tribe and Dothraki culture in general is also all about taking what they are able to take, whether it be food, slaves, sacrifices etc. So, given the offense such a breach of contract would have been to Drogo, more than likely he would have had little qualms about ripping out the tongues of both Viserys and Daenerys, as he did to his own brother when challenged to a duel.

Cities like Pentos (where Illyrio resided) parlay with the Dothraki to prevent the Dothraki from pillaging and burning their city. The Dothraki are essentially the Mongols...despite the evident disdain most civilizations have against Dothraki culture, no one can stand up to them in open combat. Robert Baratheon knew this as well...the only thing keeping the Dothraki from destroying all of Westeros is their fear of sailing.

So, when you talking about "holding a gun to his head", you must understand that the Dothraki are holding a gun to the heads of every single city on their continent, and those cities do their best to cope with their situation.

See, no. She wouldn't be justfied, because consent can be withdrawn at any time. She might be justified trying to sue him for part of the costs of the wedding, but he is not obliged to marry her if he changes his mind.

You are attempting to describe the culture and morality of a setting in which you know nothing. Instead, you are attempting to import your own culture and ideas onto the setting of Game of Thrones.

Viserys did something similar throughout his time on the series...he imported his own culture and ideas whenever dealing with the Dothraki and found his own conceptions to trump that of the Dothraki. He was given the crown he desired by Drogo, and it killed him - burned him alive, really.

It's exactly the same with this consummation idea. The bride can refuse to have sex. Maybe she's just tired and wants to delay it. Maybe she will never want to have sex. Either way, if the groom forces her then it's rape.

It's a simple idea, really. I'm actually kind of baffled by your objections.

It's because you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. You are attempting to describe the Game of Thrones setting as if it was modern Australia.

It is much more in line with medieval Europe, which in its treatment of marriage is generally much more in line with other pre-modern, patriarchal civilizations throughout the world.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
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5/16/2014 2:35:33 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/15/2014 10:25:43 PM, rross wrote:
At 5/15/2014 9:30:31 AM, wrichcirw wrote:

It's exactly the same with this consummation idea. The bride can refuse to have sex. Maybe she's just tired and wants to delay it. Maybe she will never want to have sex. Either way, if the groom forces her then it's rape.

It's a simple idea, really. I'm actually kind of baffled by your objections.

As I said to you in private, Mongolian culture, from which the Dothraki are heavily based, practiced bridal kidnapping...Genghis Khan's own mother was made a wife in this manner.

This is rape, unquestionably. There is no consent in such situations.

All Dothraki are rapists, no question, but for a different reason. All Dothraki are trained to become horse warriors, and their culture dictates that the spoils of war sanction raping female captives. This occurs often in the series...Drogo himself while making an impassioned speech to invade Westeros on behalf of his wife Daenerys talks about all the women he will rape when he does so. (https://www.youtube.com...)

You must understand, however, that in this particular aspect, Dothraki culture is more civilized than Mongolian culture. Drogo did not kidnap Daenerys...he married her and it was consensual. Daenerys herself makes this point during a Dothraki raid, where she claims a bunch of female captives to prevent them from being "mounted" as a spoil of war, and when pressured on her actions, responded that if the Dothraki wanted to mount these women, perhaps they should take them as wives, strongly implying that wives were not raped.

Daenerys was not raped, no matter what your sensitivities tell you.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
rross
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5/16/2014 2:38:40 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/16/2014 2:11:36 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 5/15/2014 10:25:43 PM, rross wrote:
At 5/15/2014 9:30:31 AM, wrichcirw wrote:

Consent to marriage is consent to consummation.

The argument makes no difference at all to any modern conception of marriage, because modern conceptions of marriage do not take consummation into account.

I think I understand the point you're trying to make. It reminds me of the first time I went skydiving. You have to climb out under the wing of the plane, then you do the checks, and you count to three and jump off. Anyway. I climbed out under the wing, did the checks, then said "ONE - I can't do this." and my instructor shouted "TWO THREE" and threw me off.

I was enormously grateful to him afterwards, because all the other beginners were these arrogant preppy boys, and imagine if I'd been the only one not to jump! And I suppose the situation implied consent because I'd paid all the money, done the two days of training, put on the outfit, gone up in plane, climbed out under the wing. All this made it clear that I wanted to jump.

On the other hand, at that moment, after I said one, I really didn't want to, which brings up an interesting issue of different selves. That is, because I was in a state of fear, was I really myself? Had I really withdrawn consent? etc.

But I think that skydiving and marriage differ in significant ways.

The first is timing. I had to jump then and there or not at all. A marriage can take a few days or weeks or months to reach consummation.

The show is clear that marriages are expected to be consummated that same evening. There is a bedding ceremony that typically occurs immediately after the wedding ceremony. Apparently the friends of both the bride and the bridegroom watch the act.

Yeah, but there's all different cultures in the fictional world, aren't there? Wasn't that the whole point that daenerys was marrying into a totally foreign culture? So how can you equate them like that?

Anyway, just because people expect the marriage to be consummated doesn't mean they condone rape. In Australia, we expect the best man to produce the rings, but that doesn't mean we'd condone holding him down, stripping him, and grabbing the rings out of his underwear if, for some reason, he decided to hide them there and refused to hand them over.

There must be a good reason for a marriage to not be consummated. The only marriages in the show that weren't consummated that same evening were Joffrey's marriage to Margeary (he was killed in the wedding ceremony) and Tyrion's marriage to Sansa. Tyrion brought up that it would be rape and that he'd only bed her if she wanted it, but as I stated in the debate, she had no choice to the marriage to begin with. The show never filmed the scene where Tyrion approaches Sansa with the marriage "proposal" - they purposely cut that out, probably because they knew that filming a demand like that would be...unpleasant.

Hell, even the marriage in the Red Wedding was consummated.

Well, I don't know because I've only read the first bit.

Second, I'm guessing my instructor had a lot of experience with beginners panicking at the last minute. But a bridegroom wouldn't have had lots of experience with child brides.

To make the analogy valid, you'd have to equate jumping out of the plane with having sex with the bridegroom. Your instructor would be synonymous to the various people advising Daenerys on her marriage, so in her case, her brother Viserys and her patron Illyrio. Viserys is an idiot, no question, but Illyrio is not.

Unlike you, Daenerys did not need to be shoved out of that plane...she jumped willingly. Instead, she pissed in her pants while in freefall.

This is a false analogy, because once you're in freefall, there's no way out of it. Nobody can help you. But rape can easily be avoided by the potential rapist.

Third, I'd just been through two days of training which went through every aspect of the jump in detail several times. So he knew that I knew what was involved. A bridegroom has no idea what a bride knows or doesn't know in relation to sex, and so can't assume consent for every part of it.

Evidently Daenerys knew exactly what was expected of her on her wedding day. She didn't ask any questions and did her duty, albeit reluctantly.

No, he had to force her so it's rape. I agree that if he'd waited and been more gentle, she probably would have had sex with him anyway, given the circumstances. But he didn't.

Without the marriage being consummated, Drogo is under no obligation to fulfill his end of the agreement.

See previous comment.

Drogo's tribe and Dothraki culture in general is also all about taking what they are able to take, whether it be food, slaves, sacrifices etc. So, given the offense such a breach of contract would have been to Drogo, more than likely he would have had little qualms about ripping out the tongues of both Viserys and Daenerys, as he did to his own brother when challenged to a duel.

Cities like Pentos (where Illyrio resided) parlay with the Dothraki to prevent the Dothraki from pillaging and burning their city. The Dothraki are essentially the Mongols...despite the evident disdain most civilizations have against Dothraki culture, no one can stand up to them in open combat. Robert Baratheon knew this as well...the only thing keeping the Dothraki from destroying all of Westeros is their fear of sailing.

So, when you talking about "holding a gun to his head", you must understand that the Dothraki are holding a gun to the heads of every single city on their continent, and those cities do their best to cope with their situation.

See, no. She wouldn't be justfied, because consent can be withdrawn at any time. She might be justified trying to sue him for part of the costs of the wedding, but he is not obliged to marry her if he changes his mind.

You are attempting to describe the culture and morality of a setting in which you know nothing. Instead, you are attempting to import your own culture and ideas onto the setting of Game of Thrones.

The Game of Thrones is fictional. I know you know that.

Viserys did something similar throughout his time on the series...he imported his own culture and ideas whenever dealing with the Dothraki and found his own conceptions to trump that of the Dothraki. He was given the crown he desired by Drogo, and it killed him - burned him alive, really.

It's exactly the same with this consummation idea. The bride can refuse to have sex. Maybe she's just tired and wants to delay it. Maybe she will never want to have sex. Either way, if the groom forces her then it's rape.

It's a simple idea, really. I'm actually kind of baffled by your objections.

It's because you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. You are attempting to describe the Game of Thrones setting as if it was modern Australia.

It is much more in line with medieval Europe, which in its treatment of marriage is generally much more in line with other pre-modern, patriarchal civilizations throughout the world.

What if it is? Non-consensual, forced sex is still rape.
wrichcirw
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5/16/2014 2:45:05 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/16/2014 2:38:40 AM, rross wrote:
At 5/16/2014 2:11:36 AM, wrichcirw wrote:

The show is clear that marriages are expected to be consummated that same evening. There is a bedding ceremony that typically occurs immediately after the wedding ceremony. Apparently the friends of both the bride and the bridegroom watch the act.

Yeah, but there's all different cultures in the fictional world, aren't there? Wasn't that the whole point that daenerys was marrying into a totally foreign culture? So how can you equate them like that?

Anyway, just because people expect the marriage to be consummated doesn't mean they condone rape. In Australia, we expect the best man to produce the rings, but that doesn't mean we'd condone holding him down, stripping him, and grabbing the rings out of his underwear if, for some reason, he decided to hide them there and refused to hand them over.

There must be a good reason for a marriage to not be consummated. The only marriages in the show that weren't consummated that same evening were Joffrey's marriage to Margeary (he was killed in the wedding ceremony) and Tyrion's marriage to Sansa. Tyrion brought up that it would be rape and that he'd only bed her if she wanted it, but as I stated in the debate, she had no choice to the marriage to begin with. The show never filmed the scene where Tyrion approaches Sansa with the marriage "proposal" - they purposely cut that out, probably because they knew that filming a demand like that would be...unpleasant.

Hell, even the marriage in the Red Wedding was consummated.

Well, I don't know because I've only read the first bit.

Second, I'm guessing my instructor had a lot of experience with beginners panicking at the last minute. But a bridegroom wouldn't have had lots of experience with child brides.

To make the analogy valid, you'd have to equate jumping out of the plane with having sex with the bridegroom. Your instructor would be synonymous to the various people advising Daenerys on her marriage, so in her case, her brother Viserys and her patron Illyrio. Viserys is an idiot, no question, but Illyrio is not.

Unlike you, Daenerys did not need to be shoved out of that plane...she jumped willingly. Instead, she pissed in her pants while in freefall.

This is a false analogy, because once you're in freefall, there's no way out of it. Nobody can help you. But rape can easily be avoided by the potential rapist.

There is a way out of skydiving while in freefall...you decide to not open your parachute.

She jumped out of that plane voluntarily. No one shoved her out the door.

Third, I'd just been through two days of training which went through every aspect of the jump in detail several times. So he knew that I knew what was involved. A bridegroom has no idea what a bride knows or doesn't know in relation to sex, and so can't assume consent for every part of it.

Evidently Daenerys knew exactly what was expected of her on her wedding day. She didn't ask any questions and did her duty, albeit reluctantly.

No, he had to force her so it's rape. I agree that if he'd waited and been more gentle, she probably would have had sex with him anyway, given the circumstances. But he didn't.

She knew, and he knew, that sex that evening was part of the deal they struck. Obviously she had cold feet...this guy didn't even speak her language. Still, it was the deal they struck, and she was not forced by him to make that deal.

Without the marriage being consummated, Drogo is under no obligation to fulfill his end of the agreement.

See previous comment.

Drogo's tribe and Dothraki culture in general is also all about taking what they are able to take, whether it be food, slaves, sacrifices etc. So, given the offense such a breach of contract would have been to Drogo, more than likely he would have had little qualms about ripping out the tongues of both Viserys and Daenerys, as he did to his own brother when challenged to a duel.

Cities like Pentos (where Illyrio resided) parlay with the Dothraki to prevent the Dothraki from pillaging and burning their city. The Dothraki are essentially the Mongols...despite the evident disdain most civilizations have against Dothraki culture, no one can stand up to them in open combat. Robert Baratheon knew this as well...the only thing keeping the Dothraki from destroying all of Westeros is their fear of sailing.

So, when you talking about "holding a gun to his head", you must understand that the Dothraki are holding a gun to the heads of every single city on their continent, and those cities do their best to cope with their situation.

See, no. She wouldn't be justfied, because consent can be withdrawn at any time. She might be justified trying to sue him for part of the costs of the wedding, but he is not obliged to marry her if he changes his mind.

You are attempting to describe the culture and morality of a setting in which you know nothing. Instead, you are attempting to import your own culture and ideas onto the setting of Game of Thrones.

The Game of Thrones is fictional. I know you know that.

Sometimes I swear you ignore half of what I tell you. I've made the point repeatedly and even quoted the author stating that much of this is heavily based upon a realistic depiction of history.

Viserys did something similar throughout his time on the series...he imported his own culture and ideas whenever dealing with the Dothraki and found his own conceptions to trump that of the Dothraki. He was given the crown he desired by Drogo, and it killed him - burned him alive, really.

It's exactly the same with this consummation idea. The bride can refuse to have sex. Maybe she's just tired and wants to delay it. Maybe she will never want to have sex. Either way, if the groom forces her then it's rape.

It's a simple idea, really. I'm actually kind of baffled by your objections.

It's because you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. You are attempting to describe the Game of Thrones setting as if it was modern Australia.

It is much more in line with medieval Europe, which in its treatment of marriage is generally much more in line with other pre-modern, patriarchal civilizations throughout the world.

What if it is? Non-consensual, forced sex is still rape.

This was consensual sex on nearly every level. She agreed to the marriage, she agreed to the sex. Sure, she could breach the contract, and Drogo probably wouldn't have stopped at killing Viserys, Illyrio, and Daenerys...he probably would have burn the city of Pentos to the ground.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
rross
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5/16/2014 2:50:51 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/16/2014 2:45:05 AM, wrichcirw wrote:

She knew, and he knew, that sex that evening was part of the deal they struck. Obviously she had cold feet...this guy didn't even speak her language. Still, it was the deal they struck, and she was not forced by him to make that deal.

She was forced to have sex, though. That's the key part.

Sometimes I swear you ignore half of what I tell you. I've made the point repeatedly and even quoted the author stating that much of this is heavily based upon a realistic depiction of history.

The author didn't write this particular rape. It was consensual sex in the book.

What if it is? Non-consensual, forced sex is still rape.

This was consensual sex on nearly every level.

On nearly every level? Oh c'mon. It's a solemn subject and you're making me laugh. :D

She agreed to the marriage, she agreed to the sex.

You agree to love and cherish. That doesn't mean if you refrain from cherishing, your spouse can physically compel you to.

Sure, she could breach the contract, and Drogo probably wouldn't have stopped at killing Viserys, Illyrio, and Daenerys...he probably would have burn the city of Pentos to the ground.

Speculation and irrelevant.
wrichcirw
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5/16/2014 2:54:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/16/2014 2:50:51 AM, rross wrote:
At 5/16/2014 2:45:05 AM, wrichcirw wrote:

She knew, and he knew, that sex that evening was part of the deal they struck. Obviously she had cold feet...this guy didn't even speak her language. Still, it was the deal they struck, and she was not forced by him to make that deal.

She was forced to have sex, though. That's the key part.

She could have said NO. She could have fought back to communicate non-consent. She didn't. The sex was not forced.

Sometimes I swear you ignore half of what I tell you. I've made the point repeatedly and even quoted the author stating that much of this is heavily based upon a realistic depiction of history.

The author didn't write this particular rape. It was consensual sex in the book.

It was not rape on the TV series either.

What if it is? Non-consensual, forced sex is still rape.

This was consensual sex on nearly every level.

On nearly every level? Oh c'mon. It's a solemn subject and you're making me laugh. :D

I've pointed out in the past your proclivity to laugh at topics that were devoid of humor.

She agreed to the marriage, she agreed to the sex.

You agree to love and cherish. That doesn't mean if you refrain from cherishing, your spouse can physically compel you to.

Jesus christ, there is nothing in the Game of Thrones wedding vows that contain the words "love and cherish". There weren't even wedding vows in Daenerys's marriage, hell Drogo didn't even understand Daenerys's language.

Sure, she could breach the contract, and Drogo probably wouldn't have stopped at killing Viserys, Illyrio, and Daenerys...he probably would have burn the city of Pentos to the ground.

Speculation and irrelevant.

Just read the analysis, and you would come to a similar conclusion.

At least my speculation on this point is well-founded. Your speculation that this scene was rape is completely unfounded on nearly every level, unless you consider the Game of Thrones setting to be modern Australia.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
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5/16/2014 3:01:15 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/16/2014 2:54:31 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 5/16/2014 2:50:51 AM, rross wrote:
At 5/16/2014 2:45:05 AM, wrichcirw wrote:

She knew, and he knew, that sex that evening was part of the deal they struck. Obviously she had cold feet...this guy didn't even speak her language. Still, it was the deal they struck, and she was not forced by him to make that deal.

She was forced to have sex, though. That's the key part.

She could have said NO. She could have fought back to communicate non-consent. She didn't. The sex was not forced.

Sometimes I swear you ignore half of what I tell you. I've made the point repeatedly and even quoted the author stating that much of this is heavily based upon a realistic depiction of history.

The author didn't write this particular rape. It was consensual sex in the book.

It was not rape on the TV series either.

What if it is? Non-consensual, forced sex is still rape.

This was consensual sex on nearly every level.

On nearly every level? Oh c'mon. It's a solemn subject and you're making me laugh. :D

I've pointed out in the past your proclivity to laugh at topics that were devoid of humor.

She agreed to the marriage, she agreed to the sex.

You agree to love and cherish. That doesn't mean if you refrain from cherishing, your spouse can physically compel you to.

Jesus christ, there is nothing in the Game of Thrones wedding vows that contain the words "love and cherish". There weren't even wedding vows in Daenerys's marriage, hell Drogo didn't even understand Daenerys's language.

These are the wedding vows that Daenerys would have been familiar with:

Unlike the faith of the Old Gods of the Forest, which lacks elaborate ceremonies (including marriage ceremonies), weddings under the auspices of the Faith of the Seven are elaborate and ritualized. These ceremonies typically take place inside of a sept and are presided over by a septon. At the beginning of the ceremony, the bride is escorted to the altar by her father where the groom and the septon await. The groom is then told, "You may now cloak the bride and bring her under your protection" and drapes a cloak bearing his house's colors around the bride's shoulders.

The bride and groom then join hands, which are tied together with a ribbon by the septon, who says, "In the sight of the Seven, I hereby seal these two souls, binding them as one, for eternity." He then instructs them to, "Look upon one another and say the words." At this point, the bride and groom turn to face each other are recite the following vow in unison: "Father, Smith, Warrior, Mother, Maiden, Crone, Stranger, I am his/hers and she/he is mine from this day until the end of my days."


http://gameofthrones.wikia.com...

At this point, you are talking out of your @ss. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. It's akin to watching someone play the game of tennis as if it was ping-pong...i.e. you're doing it all wrong.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
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5/16/2014 5:37:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/16/2014 2:50:51 AM, rross wrote:
At 5/16/2014 2:45:05 AM, wrichcirw wrote:

Sure, she could breach the contract, and Drogo probably wouldn't have stopped at killing Viserys, Illyrio, and Daenerys...he probably would have burn the city of Pentos to the ground.

Speculation and irrelevant.

Drogo owned a palace in the sacred Dothraki city of Vaes Dothrak. He also possessed a nine-towered mansion in Pentos, given to him by the city's ruling magisters as part of their policy of bribing the Dothraki not to loot the city.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org...

This is extremely relevant, and I will point to your very accurate example of skydiving. They all jumped off the plane, and the way they safely arrive on the ground is if the marriage goes according to plan, i.e. consummation.

Just to illustrate how absolutely ridiculous it is for you to bring your modern sensitivities to a clearly medieval setting, I must ask you why you aren't complaining about the fact that they're riding horses instead of driving cars? Can you see how absolutely misbegotten your entire line of argumentation is on this subject matter?
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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5/16/2014 5:40:07 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/16/2014 5:37:23 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 5/16/2014 2:50:51 AM, rross wrote:
At 5/16/2014 2:45:05 AM, wrichcirw wrote:

Sure, she could breach the contract, and Drogo probably wouldn't have stopped at killing Viserys, Illyrio, and Daenerys...he probably would have burn the city of Pentos to the ground.

Speculation and irrelevant.

Drogo owned a palace in the sacred Dothraki city of Vaes Dothrak. He also possessed a nine-towered mansion in Pentos, given to him by the city's ruling magisters as part of their policy of bribing the Dothraki not to loot the city.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org...

This is extremely relevant, and I will point to your very accurate example of skydiving. They all jumped off the plane, and the way they safely arrive on the ground is if the marriage goes according to plan, i.e. consummation.

Just to illustrate how absolutely ridiculous it is for you to bring your modern sensitivities to a clearly medieval setting, I must ask you why you aren't complaining about the fact that they're riding horses instead of driving cars? Can you see how absolutely misbegotten your entire line of argumentation is on this subject matter?

I will also add that in response to an assassination attempt on Drogo's wife Daenerys, Drogo responded that he will do what no Khal has ever done, he would actually cross the sea and destroy all of Westeros.

So, to think that he'd burn Pentos to the ground over the sleight of Daenerys refusing to consummate the marriage on their wedding night is not at all far fetched.

It's like speculating the sun will rise tomorrow. Some bets are indeed safe bets.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Korashk
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5/16/2014 6:19:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/15/2014 9:30:31 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
Consent to marriage is consent to consummation.

I think your entire argument hinges on this flawed assumption.

At 5/16/2014 2:45:05 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
She knew, and he knew, that sex that evening was part of the deal they struck. Obviously she had cold feet...this guy didn't even speak her language. Still, it was the deal they struck, and she was not forced by him to make that deal.

Yes she was, her brother basically traded her for Drogo's army.

At 5/16/2014 2:54:31 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
She could have said NO. She could have fought back to communicate non-consent. She didn't. The sex was not forced.

Are you even reading the words you type? She couldn't have fought back in any way. Not physically or mentally because she knew that refusal would likely result in the deaths of many people.
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
wrichcirw
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5/16/2014 9:02:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/16/2014 6:19:26 PM, Korashk wrote:
At 5/15/2014 9:30:31 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
Consent to marriage is consent to consummation.

I think your entire argument hinges on this flawed assumption.

Zero substantiation for your opinion means that you don't have an argument here.

At 5/16/2014 2:45:05 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
She knew, and he knew, that sex that evening was part of the deal they struck. Obviously she had cold feet...this guy didn't even speak her language. Still, it was the deal they struck, and she was not forced by him to make that deal.

Yes she was, her brother basically traded her for Drogo's army.

As stated repeatedly, Daenerys herself agreed to this. Both Daenerys and Viserys had the same goals related to their Targaryen bloodline.

At 5/16/2014 2:54:31 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
She could have said NO. She could have fought back to communicate non-consent. She didn't. The sex was not forced.

Are you even reading the words you type? She couldn't have fought back in any way. Not physically or mentally because she knew that refusal would likely result in the deaths of many people.

An arrangement she consented to enter. Rross's skydiving example is most apt...some actions, once put into motion, have fatal consequences if not seen through properly. No one shoved her off that plane.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Korashk
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5/17/2014 1:00:55 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/16/2014 9:02:19 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 5/16/2014 6:19:26 PM, Korashk wrote:
At 5/15/2014 9:30:31 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
Consent to marriage is consent to consummation.

I think your entire argument hinges on this flawed assumption.

Zero substantiation for your opinion means that you don't have an argument here.

At 5/16/2014 2:45:05 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
She knew, and he knew, that sex that evening was part of the deal they struck. Obviously she had cold feet...this guy didn't even speak her language. Still, it was the deal they struck, and she was not forced by him to make that deal.

Yes she was, her brother basically traded her for Drogo's army.

As stated repeatedly, Daenerys herself agreed to this. Both Daenerys and Viserys had the same goals related to their Targaryen bloodline.

At 5/16/2014 2:54:31 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
She could have said NO. She could have fought back to communicate non-consent. She didn't. The sex was not forced.

Are you even reading the words you type? She couldn't have fought back in any way. Not physically or mentally because she knew that refusal would likely result in the deaths of many people.

An arrangement she consented to enter. Rross's skydiving example is most apt...some actions, once put into motion, have fatal consequences if not seen through properly. No one shoved her off that plane.

You have an extremely messed up sense of what consent is.
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
wrichcirw
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5/17/2014 2:30:18 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/17/2014 1:00:55 AM, Korashk wrote:
At 5/16/2014 9:02:19 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 5/16/2014 6:19:26 PM, Korashk wrote:
At 5/15/2014 9:30:31 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
Consent to marriage is consent to consummation.

I think your entire argument hinges on this flawed assumption.

Zero substantiation for your opinion means that you don't have an argument here.

At 5/16/2014 2:45:05 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
She knew, and he knew, that sex that evening was part of the deal they struck. Obviously she had cold feet...this guy didn't even speak her language. Still, it was the deal they struck, and she was not forced by him to make that deal.

Yes she was, her brother basically traded her for Drogo's army.

As stated repeatedly, Daenerys herself agreed to this. Both Daenerys and Viserys had the same goals related to their Targaryen bloodline.

At 5/16/2014 2:54:31 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
She could have said NO. She could have fought back to communicate non-consent. She didn't. The sex was not forced.

Are you even reading the words you type? She couldn't have fought back in any way. Not physically or mentally because she knew that refusal would likely result in the deaths of many people.

An arrangement she consented to enter. Rross's skydiving example is most apt...some actions, once put into motion, have fatal consequences if not seen through properly. No one shoved her off that plane.

You have an extremely messed up sense of what consent is.

You've yet to make a point. Instead, you only have made a personal attack.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Korashk
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5/17/2014 4:37:17 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/17/2014 2:30:18 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
You've yet to make a point. Instead, you only have made a personal attack.

You also again display that you don't know what personal attacks are. I think you have a messed up sense of the concept of consent, which is what your entire argument here is based upon.

You make points about how Margery would have been "raping" Joffrey. Ignoring your own standard of using the show's culture (and the fact that he's 19 and she's about the same age) as if it meant anything. You also briefly mention Sansa to fatten this point while also ignoring that she's ~16 and 16 year-olds having sex with 19 year olds is illegal bascally nowhere today. You try to hammer this point with ferocity when arranging marriages between children isn't looked upon even TODAY with that kind of negative criticism.

You then go on to say that she "consented" to the marriage. This point on its own a wildly contestable claim as the influence of those around her as well as her knowledge of the consequesces of her refusal very obviously played a part in that decision. This ignores the fact that the "bedding ceremony" is a Westerosi tradition, not a Dothraki one. Fact is, Daenerys could have and likely was been completely ignorant of most Dothraki wedding traditions. Another point here is that traditions are generally not obligations.

You then use this supposed "consent" as the basis for the assertion that, well, marriage back then meant having a shag after the wedding, so she must have consented to the sex right?

Even then you ignore the notion that consent can be withdrawn. Sure, the consequences of one's supposed consent are sometimes unavoidable, but you can't really make that claim that throughout the ordeal Daenerys consented because of a prior decision virtually unrelated to the substance of the act in question. She clearly did not consent to the first instance where she and Drogo had sex. Any reasonable person can see that.

If your argument is that according to the laws and customs of the area she wasn't raped, then we'd have to agree, but who cares about that point? It's a meaningless distinction. The fact that their culture is often accepting of rape doesn't mean that she wasn't raped.

The skydiving example was a false analogy on purpose. She even said that when she made it. A more apt analogy would have been, "If you don't jump out of this plane we're going to kill your family, so better get moving."

Your claim is, essentially, "She knew that if she didn't consent to the marriage and all that came with it everything she knew would be destroyed." Where I come from that isn't consent, it's coercion.
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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5/17/2014 4:53:19 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/17/2014 4:37:17 AM, Korashk wrote:
At 5/17/2014 2:30:18 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
You've yet to make a point. Instead, you only have made a personal attack.

You also again display that you don't know what personal attacks are.

I was correct when I first cited your poor behavior months ago, and I am correct now.

I think you have a messed up sense of the concept of consent, which is what your entire argument here is based upon.

You make points about how [by a modern conception of rape], Margery would have been "raping" Joffrey. Ignoring your own standard of using the show's culture (and the fact that he's 19 and she's about the same age) as if it meant anything.

I was applying the standard used by rross, not my own standard, to make that point.

As it is, Joffrey is evidently not even old enough to rule, hence his mother being Queen REGENT.

As it is, according to your logic, if Joffrey was 19 when he died, he was 17 when bethrothed to Sansa. This is statutory rape by the laws of California, and to the extent that it was pushed by Joffrey's and Sansa's parents, they stand accused of be accomplices to such rape, or at least parents unfit to raise children under relevant criminal statutes.

---

You also briefly mention Sansa to fatten this point while also ignoring that she's ~16 and 16 year-olds having sex with 19 year olds is illegal bascally nowhere today.

Illegal in California. California is not "nowhere". You can continue to be wrong and ill-informed if you like, or you can actually attempt to substantiate points you make.
http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov....

As it is, Sansa is 14 in season 1 and had not even had her first period when she was bethrothed to Joffrey.

You try to hammer this point with ferocity when arranging marriages between children isn't looked upon even TODAY with that kind of negative criticism.

Are you saying that according to your perspective, arranged marriages are perfectly fine in today's society?

You then go on to say that she "consented" to the marriage. This point on its own a wildly contestable claim as the influence of those around her as well as her knowledge of the consequesces of her refusal very obviously played a part in that decision. This ignores the fact that the "bedding ceremony" is a Westerosi tradition, not a Dothraki one. Fact is, Daenerys could have and likely was been completely ignorant of most Dothraki wedding traditions. Another point here is that traditions are generally not obligations.

Daenerys was Westerosi, so according to Daenerys's traditions, a bedding ceremony would follow the wedding ceremony. Consummation was expected of Daenerys by Daenerys.

You then use this supposed "consent" as the basis for the assertion that, well, marriage back then meant having a shag after the wedding, so she must have consented to the sex right?

Correct.

Even then you ignore the notion that consent can be withdrawn. Sure, the consequences of one's supposed consent are sometimes unavoidable, but you can't really make that claim that throughout the ordeal Daenerys consented because of a prior decision virtually unrelated to the substance of the act in question. She clearly did not consent to the first instance where she and Drogo had sex. Any reasonable person can see that.

She consented to the marriage, and thus to the consummation of the marriage by her own traditions and customs.

If your argument is that according to the laws and customs of the area she wasn't raped, then we'd have to agree, but who cares about that point? It's a meaningless distinction. The fact that their culture is often accepting of rape doesn't mean that she wasn't raped.

That is not my argument.

The skydiving example was a false analogy on purpose. She even said that when she made it. A more apt analogy would have been, "If you don't jump out of this plane we're going to kill your family, so better get moving."

No, she said my rendition of her analogy was false...it was not, a point she subsequently dropped.

On your rendition, that's ridiculous. No one forced the marriage between Drogo and Daenerys. It was a trade, with terms agreed upon by both sides. Daenerys was part of the decision making of that trade.

Once that trade was sealed by contractual agreement, of course there would be repercussions for breach of contract.

Your claim is, essentially, "She knew that if she didn't consent to the marriage and all that came with it everything she knew would be destroyed." Where I come from that isn't consent, it's coercion.

This is not my claim. My claim is that upon agreeing to the marriage, non-consent to consummation would constitute breach of contract. It's akin to agreeing to skydiving and jumping off the plane, but having second thoughts while in freefall.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Korashk
Posts: 4,597
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5/17/2014 5:52:44 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/17/2014 4:53:19 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 5/17/2014 4:37:17 AM, Korashk wrote:
At 5/17/2014 2:30:18 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
You make points about how [by a modern conception of rape], Margery would have been "raping" Joffrey. Ignoring your own standard of using the show's culture (and the fact that he's 19 and she's about the same age) as if it meant anything.

My points are not about the cultural definitions of rape. They're about the concept of consent, which is not bound by cultural understanding or context.

As it is, Joffrey is evidently not even old enough to rule, hence his mother being Queen REGENT.

She wasn't queen regent in the more recent episodes.

As it is, according to your logic, if Joffrey was 19 when he died, he was 17 when bethrothed to Sansa. This is statutory rape by the laws of California, and to the extent that it was pushed by Joffrey's and Sansa's parents, they stand accused of be accomplices to such rape, or at least parents unfit to raise children under relevant criminal statutes.

So why do you keep making the point that being betrothed = statutory rape? I'm prety sure that "crime" involves more than two people's parents making them get married at some point in the future.

You also briefly mention Sansa to fatten this point while also ignoring that she's ~16 and 16 year-olds having sex with 19 year olds is illegal bascally nowhere today.

They didn't have sex. I have no idea what point you're trying to make. It's nonsense.

Illegal in California. California is not "nowhere". You can continue to be wrong and ill-informed if you like, or you can actually attempt to substantiate points you make.
http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov....

There are more parts of the western world where 16 year olds can consent to sexual activity than there are not and you're completely ignoring Romeo and Juliet laws.

You try to hammer this point with ferocity when arranging marriages between children isn't looked upon even TODAY with that kind of negative criticism.

Are you saying that according to your perspective, arranged marriages are perfectly fine in today's society?

I'm saying that nobody claims that arranged marriages are statutory rape because it's a complete non-sequitur.

You then go on to say that she "consented" to the marriage. This point on its own a wildly contestable claim as the influence of those around her as well as her knowledge of the consequesces of her refusal very obviously played a part in that decision. This ignores the fact that the "bedding ceremony" is a Westerosi tradition, not a Dothraki one. Fact is, Daenerys could have and likely was been completely ignorant of most Dothraki wedding traditions. Another point here is that traditions are generally not obligations.

Daenerys was Westerosi, so according to Daenerys's traditions, a bedding ceremony would follow the wedding ceremony. Consummation was expected of Daenerys by Daenerys.

You already said this. I don't see how it has anything to do with your point.

You then use this supposed "consent" as the basis for the assertion that, well, marriage back then meant having a shag after the wedding, so she must have consented to the sex right?

Correct.

I don't even know how to respond to that.

Even then you ignore the notion that consent can be withdrawn. Sure, the consequences of one's supposed consent are sometimes unavoidable, but you can't really make that claim that throughout the ordeal Daenerys consented because of a prior decision virtually unrelated to the substance of the act in question. She clearly did not consent to the first instance where she and Drogo had sex. Any reasonable person can see that.

She consented to the marriage, and thus to the consummation of the marriage by her own traditions and customs.

If your argument is that according to the laws and customs of the area she wasn't raped, then we'd have to agree, but who cares about that point? It's a meaningless distinction. The fact that their culture is often accepting of rape doesn't mean that she wasn't raped.

That is not my argument.

The skydiving example was a false analogy on purpose. She even said that when she made it. A more apt analogy would have been, "If you don't jump out of this plane we're going to kill your family, so better get moving."

No, she said my rendition of her analogy was false...it was not, a point she subsequently dropped.

On your rendition, that's ridiculous. No one forced the marriage between Drogo and Daenerys. It was a trade, with terms agreed upon by both sides. Daenerys was part of the decision making of that trade.

Once that trade was sealed by contractual agreement, of course there would be repercussions for breach of contract.

Your claim is, essentially, "She knew that if she didn't consent to the marriage and all that came with it everything she knew would be destroyed." Where I come from that isn't consent, it's coercion.

This is not my claim. My claim is that upon agreeing to the marriage, non-consent to consummation would constitute breach of contract. It's akin to agreeing to skydiving and jumping off the plane, but having second thoughts while in freefall.

If myself and a prostitute have a contract involving my money for sex with her, if I pay her, but she doesn't want to have sex with me anymore and I have sex with her anyways I still raped her. The fact that she breached our contract has nothing to do with this fact.
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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5/17/2014 6:06:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/17/2014 5:52:44 AM, Korashk wrote:
At 5/17/2014 4:53:19 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 5/17/2014 4:37:17 AM, Korashk wrote:
At 5/17/2014 2:30:18 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
You make points about how [by a modern conception of rape], Margery would have been "raping" Joffrey. Ignoring your own standard of using the show's culture (and the fact that he's 19 and she's about the same age) as if it meant anything.

My points are not about the cultural definitions of rape. They're about the concept of consent, which is not bound by cultural understanding or context.

Are you divorcing your own conception of rape from the conception of consent?

As it is, Joffrey is evidently not even old enough to rule, hence his mother being Queen REGENT.

She wasn't queen regent in the more recent episodes.

Yes she was. Jaime addresses her as "your grace" after Joffrey's death. She is still Queen regent upon Tommen's ascension.

As it is, according to your logic, if Joffrey was 19 when he died, he was 17 when bethrothed to Sansa. This is statutory rape by the laws of California, and to the extent that it was pushed by Joffrey's and Sansa's parents, they stand accused of be accomplices to such rape, or at least parents unfit to raise children under relevant criminal statutes.

So why do you keep making the point that being betrothed = statutory rape? I'm prety sure that "crime" involves more than two people's parents making them get married at some point in the future.

Because such a point is valid under a modern conception of rape when the bethrothed are underaged.

You also briefly mention Sansa to fatten this point while also ignoring that she's ~16 and 16 year-olds having sex with 19 year olds is illegal bascally nowhere today.

They didn't have sex. I have no idea what point you're trying to make. It's nonsense.

You've heard of the concept of attempted rape, I'm sure. Had they had sex, as everyone, including themselves, had intended to do upon getting married, then according to a modern conception of rape, they would have been raping each other.

Illegal in California. California is not "nowhere". You can continue to be wrong and ill-informed if you like, or you can actually attempt to substantiate points you make.
http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov....

There are more parts of the western world where 16 year olds can consent to sexual activity than there are not and you're completely ignoring Romeo and Juliet laws.

1) You're shifting the ground of the argument, meaning that you're dropping your prior assertions.

2) Romeo and Juliet is neither relevant to a modern conception nor to a Game-of-Thrones conception of marriage. I should ignore such a reference, as should you.

You try to hammer this point with ferocity when arranging marriages between children isn't looked upon even TODAY with that kind of negative criticism.

Are you saying that according to your perspective, arranged marriages are perfectly fine in today's society?

I'm saying that nobody claims that arranged marriages are statutory rape because it's a complete non-sequitur.

In a modern conception of rape, arranged marriages involving underaged children is statutory rape perpetrated by the children and the parents.

You then go on to say that she "consented" to the marriage. This point on its own a wildly contestable claim as the influence of those around her as well as her knowledge of the consequesces of her refusal very obviously played a part in that decision. This ignores the fact that the "bedding ceremony" is a Westerosi tradition, not a Dothraki one. Fact is, Daenerys could have and likely was been completely ignorant of most Dothraki wedding traditions. Another point here is that traditions are generally not obligations.

Daenerys was Westerosi, so according to Daenerys's traditions, a bedding ceremony would follow the wedding ceremony. Consummation was expected of Daenerys by Daenerys.

You already said this. I don't see how it has anything to do with your point.

It wholly refutes your point.

You then use this supposed "consent" as the basis for the assertion that, well, marriage back then meant having a shag after the wedding, so she must have consented to the sex right?

Correct.

I don't even know how to respond to that.

Good, then don't.

Even then you ignore the notion that consent can be withdrawn. Sure, the consequences of one's supposed consent are sometimes unavoidable, but you can't really make that claim that throughout the ordeal Daenerys consented because of a prior decision virtually unrelated to the substance of the act in question. She clearly did not consent to the first instance where she and Drogo had sex. Any reasonable person can see that.

She consented to the marriage, and thus to the consummation of the marriage by her own traditions and customs.

If your argument is that according to the laws and customs of the area she wasn't raped, then we'd have to agree, but who cares about that point? It's a meaningless distinction. The fact that their culture is often accepting of rape doesn't mean that she wasn't raped.

That is not my argument.

The skydiving example was a false analogy on purpose. She even said that when she made it. A more apt analogy would have been, "If you don't jump out of this plane we're going to kill your family, so better get moving."

No, she said my rendition of her analogy was false...it was not, a point she subsequently dropped.

On your rendition, that's ridiculous. No one forced the marriage between Drogo and Daenerys. It was a trade, with terms agreed upon by both sides. Daenerys was part of the decision making of that trade.

Once that trade was sealed by contractual agreement, of course there would be repercussions for breach of contract.

Your claim is, essentially, "She knew that if she didn't consent to the marriage and all that came with it everything she knew would be destroyed." Where I come from that isn't consent, it's coercion.

This is not my claim. My claim is that upon agreeing to the marriage, non-consent to consummation would constitute breach of contract. It's akin to agreeing to skydiving and jumping off the plane, but having second thoughts while in freefall.

If myself and a prostitute have a contract involving my money for sex with her, if I pay her, but she doesn't want to have sex with me anymore and I have sex with her anyways I still raped her. The fact that she breached our contract has nothing to do with this fact.

Prostitution is illegal in America. By a modern conception of prostitution, the fact that you've entered into such an agreement, regardless of the consequences of the agreement, means you've committed a crime.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?