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King Joffrey's Reign

wrichcirw
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5/19/2014 9:17:15 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
** This thread will contain massive spoilers about the HBO television series "Game of Thrones". If you do not wish to read about the series before watching it, then please do not read this thread. **

This thread is set up for discussion of an ensuing debate on the resolution:

King Joffrey Would Have (Eventually) Become a Good King
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
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5/19/2014 9:34:00 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
The debate is here:

http://www.debate.org...
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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6/7/2014 8:37:38 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
The debate has finished:

http://www.debate.org...
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Ragnar
Posts: 1,658
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6/7/2014 11:55:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
It was an interesting debate. As was mentioned in my RFD, I did not become convinced he could have survived long enough to become either a good or bad king (were it a scoring debate, I'd have to give the arguments a lot more deep thought).
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ChosenWolff
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6/8/2014 12:04:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Haven't read it yet, but I imagine the opponent could make an argument that Jeoffery would die before ever becoming good, even if it wasn't at his marriage celebration.
How about NO elections?

#onlyonedeb8
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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6/8/2014 12:57:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/8/2014 12:04:47 AM, ChosenWolff wrote:
Haven't read it yet, but I imagine the opponent could make an argument that Jeoffery would die before ever becoming good, even if it wasn't at his marriage celebration.

I didn't do that because 1) I didn't feel the need 2) I didn't think Pro wanted that to be part of the debate (nor did I really).
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
wrichcirw
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6/8/2014 10:07:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/7/2014 11:55:24 PM, Ragnar wrote:
It was an interesting debate. As was mentioned in my RFD, I did not become convinced he could have survived long enough to become either a good or bad king (were it a scoring debate, I'd have to give the arguments a lot more deep thought).

Yeah, I agreed with most of your RFD. Myself, after reading your RFD and phantom's final round, I think he had the beginnings of a winning argument in that even if Joffrey survived 20 years, more than likely Tywin would not, and since so much of my argument hinged on Tywin's guidance, that would have essentially sealed the debate for CON.

LOL, and agree about "I learned more about Joffrey than I ever thought I wanted to..."

I will add though that if you take the knee-jerk reaction against Joffrey's...temperament out of the picture, he did make a lot of amazingly cogent assertions, most of which I couldn't fit into the debate.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Ragnar
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6/8/2014 10:18:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I meant Joffrey not piss off too many people, causing another successful assassination attempt before he can become a good king. In fact I suspect losing his grandfather, would help mature him... Kind of a "oh [explicit] , the manager is dead, we have so much debt... How am I going to get things on track so I can keep affording to murdering hookers?"

I think were this a scoring one, I would probably have either left arguments tied, or put them in your favor. I admit to an argument bias against Gish Galloping (not to say con outright did that, but his case began to resemble it, even tossing bullet point lists around, then complaining that pro had not properly responded to everything).
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phantom
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6/9/2014 1:31:04 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/8/2014 10:07:00 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 6/7/2014 11:55:24 PM, Ragnar wrote:
It was an interesting debate. As was mentioned in my RFD, I did not become convinced he could have survived long enough to become either a good or bad king (were it a scoring debate, I'd have to give the arguments a lot more deep thought).

Yeah, I agreed with most of your RFD. Myself, after reading your RFD and phantom's final round, I think he had the beginnings of a winning argument in that even if Joffrey survived 20 years, more than likely Tywin would not, and since so much of my argument hinged on Tywin's guidance, that would have essentially sealed the debate for CON.

I think I argued from the first round that Tywin was getting old (it was at least the second, not last). He didn't even need to die, just get old enough to have no sway over Joffrey (which in my opinion would stop happening before he got old).

LOL, and agree about "I learned more about Joffrey than I ever thought I wanted to..."

I will add though that if you take the knee-jerk reaction against Joffrey's...temperament out of the picture, he did make a lot of amazingly cogent assertions, most of which I couldn't fit into the debate.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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6/9/2014 1:48:17 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/8/2014 10:18:49 PM, Ragnar wrote:
I meant Joffrey not piss off too many people, causing another successful assassination attempt before he can become a good king. In fact I suspect losing his grandfather, would help mature him... Kind of a "oh [explicit] , the manager is dead, we have so much debt... How am I going to get things on track so I can keep affording to murdering hookers?"

I think were this a scoring one, I would probably have either left arguments tied, or put them in your favor. I admit to an argument bias against Gish Galloping (not to say con outright did that, but his case began to resemble it, even tossing bullet point lists around, then complaining that pro had not properly responded to everything).

We only had 5,000 characters and my original argument ran over 11,000. Bullet points helped and I only used them in that way once, but I see your point.

Personally, I don't feel like the resolution was winnable, but I don't think Wrichcirw could have presented a stronger case. That's just my opinion, but I can't see how the resolution could amount to anything more than mere possibility. Wrichcirw did do an excellent job presenting its possibility--but to me, that's all it could ever be.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)