Total Posts:17|Showing Posts:1-17
Jump to topic:

Did Doctor Octopus rape Spider-Man?

Ragnar
Posts: 1,658
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/26/2015 7:56:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
While it rarely comes up, there have been a few notable instances of sex crimes in comics. It is even touched on in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, when agent Grant Ward got raped by an Asgardian.

In Spider-Man in particular, there's been a few particularly ugly cases of it. Norman Osborn's affair with the underage Gwen Stacy, then later killing her to take sole custody of their kids. The issue was well explored with Felicia Hardy (Black-Cat). Whereas when Spider-Man's roommate Michelle Gonzales, was victimized by Chameleon, they tried to turn the horror into comedy.

Yet a bit of a grey area may be Doctor Octopus' role as the "Superior Spider-Man." A plot-line in which he murdered Peter Parker, and took his literal place as Spider-Man. During this event he got engaged to and had physical relations with Anna Maria. I personally feel his actions qualify as both rape, and necrophilia. This is no to say he committed any crime against Anna Maria, but rather against Peter Parker. Peter did not give consent to have relations with Anna, nor potentially catch any diseases she may carry, nor potentially father any children with her. Peter was quite literally dead at the time; that his corpse was still warm, does not excuse this violation of his person.

As for why I classify it as Doctor Octopus' crime rather than Anna Maria's, is she was lead to believe there was full consent between all people involved. She in essence became a tool of the crime. Doctor Octopus on the other hand had full knowledge of the lack of consent of one party involved (along with knowledge of that party being a corpse, as he was in direct control of it at the time).

Any thoughts on my analysis? Agreements or disagreements?
Unofficial DDO Guide: http://goo.gl...
(It's probably the best help resource here, other than talking to people...)

Voting Standards: https://goo.gl...

And please disable Smart-Quotes: https://goo.gl...
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/26/2015 8:24:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/26/2015 7:56:01 PM, Ragnar wrote:
While it rarely comes up, there have been a few notable instances of sex crimes in comics. It is even touched on in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, when agent Grant Ward got raped by an Asgardian.

In Spider-Man in particular, there's been a few particularly ugly cases of it. Norman Osborn's affair with the underage Gwen Stacy, then later killing her to take sole custody of their kids. The issue was well explored with Felicia Hardy (Black-Cat). Whereas when Spider-Man's roommate Michelle Gonzales, was victimized by Chameleon, they tried to turn the horror into comedy.

Yet a bit of a grey area may be Doctor Octopus' role as the "Superior Spider-Man." A plot-line in which he murdered Peter Parker, and took his literal place as Spider-Man. During this event he got engaged to and had physical relations with Anna Maria. I personally feel his actions qualify as both rape, and necrophilia. This is no to say he committed any crime against Anna Maria, but rather against Peter Parker. Peter did not give consent to have relations with Anna, nor potentially catch any diseases she may carry, nor potentially father any children with her. Peter was quite literally dead at the time; that his corpse was still warm, does not excuse this violation of his person.

As for why I classify it as Doctor Octopus' crime rather than Anna Maria's, is she was lead to believe there was full consent between all people involved. She in essence became a tool of the crime. Doctor Octopus on the other hand had full knowledge of the lack of consent of one party involved (along with knowledge of that party being a corpse, as he was in direct control of it at the time).

Any thoughts on my analysis? Agreements or disagreements?

I'm not familiar with this story.

As it is, I see some areas that would benefit from some clarification:

When you say that Doc Oc "took his literal place as Spider-Man", do you mean that somehow his "self" inhabited the corpse of Peter Parker? Or that somehow he was able to fool the world that he was Peter Parker and hid the corpse somewhere? If it's the latter, it's not rape...it doesn't even involve Peter Parker. If it's the former, then that just raises more questions:

a) What is meant by "self" in this instance?
b) What is meant by "death" in this instance? Isn't death permanent? Do comic book characters really ever "die"?

Apparently Peter Parker "came back to life (?)" in this story, yes? IMHO such instances of "comic book death" really resemble instances of MIA or comatose, so the "corpse" still has full personage and any criminal violation of that person would be, well, criminal. Not sure that matters though, I've never seen a "comic book trial" before, although I'd imagine they do exist.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/26/2015 8:25:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I would take this even further. From what I understand, Peter (or at least part of his conscious) was alive within Doc Ock's mind for at least part of this time. As such, Doc Ock was quite literally kidnapping Peter's mind and fully aware that Peter did not condone his actions.

I agree that Anna Marie was in no way responsible for any of this.
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

https://i.imgflip.com...
DarthKirones
Posts: 509
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/26/2015 9:02:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
You may have just ruined my favorite comic book series...
"I am not religious. I am a genius. I have the Universe in my hands."
-Aerogant

"Of course a jewish baby cannibalizing a jewish mommy is fine"
-Heil being retarded

"Eradicating the baby scourge from our midsts is most certainly fun. And I am proud to be your hero. Babies tremble then they hear my name.. Airmax, the hero of baby annihilation."
-Airmax
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/27/2015 12:36:57 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/26/2015 9:02:14 PM, DarthKirones wrote:
You may have just ruined my favorite comic book series...

Spider-Man in general or the Superior Spider-Man arc?
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

https://i.imgflip.com...
DarthKirones
Posts: 509
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/27/2015 9:11:13 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/27/2015 12:36:57 AM, Maikuru wrote:
At 3/26/2015 9:02:14 PM, DarthKirones wrote:
You may have just ruined my favorite comic book series...

Spider-Man in general or the Superior Spider-Man arc?

Superior.
"I am not religious. I am a genius. I have the Universe in my hands."
-Aerogant

"Of course a jewish baby cannibalizing a jewish mommy is fine"
-Heil being retarded

"Eradicating the baby scourge from our midsts is most certainly fun. And I am proud to be your hero. Babies tremble then they hear my name.. Airmax, the hero of baby annihilation."
-Airmax
Adam_Godzilla
Posts: 2,487
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/27/2015 9:44:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/27/2015 9:11:13 AM, DarthKirones wrote:
At 3/27/2015 12:36:57 AM, Maikuru wrote:
At 3/26/2015 9:02:14 PM, DarthKirones wrote:
You may have just ruined my favorite comic book series...

Spider-Man in general or the Superior Spider-Man arc?

Superior.

I freakin loved Superior.
New episode of OUTSIDERS: http://www.debate.org...
Episode 4 - They walk among us
DarthKirones
Posts: 509
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/27/2015 9:59:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/27/2015 9:44:15 AM, Adam_Godzilla wrote:
At 3/27/2015 9:11:13 AM, DarthKirones wrote:
At 3/27/2015 12:36:57 AM, Maikuru wrote:
At 3/26/2015 9:02:14 PM, DarthKirones wrote:
You may have just ruined my favorite comic book series...

Spider-Man in general or the Superior Spider-Man arc?

Superior.

I freakin loved Superior.

Same.
"I am not religious. I am a genius. I have the Universe in my hands."
-Aerogant

"Of course a jewish baby cannibalizing a jewish mommy is fine"
-Heil being retarded

"Eradicating the baby scourge from our midsts is most certainly fun. And I am proud to be your hero. Babies tremble then they hear my name.. Airmax, the hero of baby annihilation."
-Airmax
Ragnar
Posts: 1,658
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/27/2015 12:01:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/26/2015 8:24:10 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/26/2015 7:56:01 PM, Ragnar wrote:
...Doctor Octopus' role as the "Superior Spider-Man." A plot-line in which he murdered Peter Parker, and took his literal place as Spider-Man. During this event he got engaged to and had physical relations with Anna Maria. I personally feel his actions qualify as both rape, and necrophilia...

I'm not familiar with this story.

As it is, I see some areas that would benefit from some clarification:

When you say that Doc Oc "took his literal place as Spider-Man", do you mean that somehow his "self" inhabited the corpse of Peter Parker?

Precisely. He killed Peter, and put his own mind (and soul?) inside empty husk; then masqueraded as Spider-Man for about a year. People ended up blaming the radical personality shift on the dangers of watching Atlas Shrugged [YouTube, in case anyone doesn't know what it is].

...that just raises more questions:

a) What is meant by "self" in this instance?
b) What is meant by "death" in this instance? Isn't death permanent? Do comic book characters really ever "die"?

a) Mind and perhaps soul.
b) The perceived destruction of the self (that he didn't know Peter somehow survived, doesn't change what he thought he was doing with a corpse). I do define death by brain (and therefore mind) instead of the heart, as otherwise we'd define anyone with an artificial heart as a zombie. And in comics death never seems to last.

Apparently Peter Parker "came back to life (?)" in this story, yes? IMHO such instances of "comic book death" really resemble instances of MIA or comatose, so the "corpse" still has full personage and any criminal violation of that person would be, well, criminal. Not sure that matters though, I've never seen a "comic book trial" before, although I'd imagine they do exist.

Peter did come back, just in time for the latest Spider-Man movie (same thing happened with Captain America's death).
Unofficial DDO Guide: http://goo.gl...
(It's probably the best help resource here, other than talking to people...)

Voting Standards: https://goo.gl...

And please disable Smart-Quotes: https://goo.gl...
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/27/2015 12:49:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
As a side-note, I was so enraged at the whole storyline. It's one thing to kill a hero, it's another to besmirch their reputation and take advantage of their loved ones (see: Doc-Peter nearly sleeping with Mary Jane). Doc was such a douche lol

They did a similar thing with the Avengers, with each of them being taken over my Extremis and the darker side of their personalities emerging. Superior Iron Man was the dumbest though; Iron Man turns evil and what does he do? He creates an app for profit lol
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

https://i.imgflip.com...
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/27/2015 1:09:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/27/2015 12:01:34 PM, Ragnar wrote:
At 3/26/2015 8:24:10 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/26/2015 7:56:01 PM, Ragnar wrote:
...Doctor Octopus' role as the "Superior Spider-Man." A plot-line in which he murdered Peter Parker, and took his literal place as Spider-Man. During this event he got engaged to and had physical relations with Anna Maria. I personally feel his actions qualify as both rape, and necrophilia...

I'm not familiar with this story.

As it is, I see some areas that would benefit from some clarification:

When you say that Doc Oc "took his literal place as Spider-Man", do you mean that somehow his "self" inhabited the corpse of Peter Parker?

Precisely. He killed Peter, and put his own mind (and soul?) inside empty husk; then masqueraded as Spider-Man for about a year. People ended up blaming the radical personality shift on the dangers of watching Atlas Shrugged [YouTube, in case anyone doesn't know what it is].

lol, I <3 comic books =)

...that just raises more questions:

a) What is meant by "self" in this instance?
b) What is meant by "death" in this instance? Isn't death permanent? Do comic book characters really ever "die"?

a) Mind and perhaps soul.
b) The perceived destruction of the self (that he didn't know Peter somehow survived, doesn't change what he thought he was doing with a corpse). I do define death by brain (and therefore mind) instead of the heart, as otherwise we'd define anyone with an artificial heart as a zombie. And in comics death never seems to last.

Apparently Peter Parker "came back to life (?)" in this story, yes? IMHO such instances of "comic book death" really resemble instances of MIA or comatose, so the "corpse" still has full personage and any criminal violation of that person would be, well, criminal. Not sure that matters though, I've never seen a "comic book trial" before, although I'd imagine they do exist.

Peter did come back, just in time for the latest Spider-Man movie (same thing happened with Captain America's death).

Yeah, I wouldn't call it death, really, I think you're right in calling it a rape/necrophilia instance.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Ragnar
Posts: 1,658
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/27/2015 4:06:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/27/2015 12:49:45 PM, Maikuru wrote:
As a side-note, I was so enraged at the whole storyline. It's one thing to kill a hero, it's another to besmirch their reputation and take advantage of their loved ones (see: Doc-Peter nearly sleeping with Mary Jane). Doc was such a douche lol

His attempted assault on M.J. was quite evil. It would have been like if Jason from Friday the 13th, butchered one camper, only to crawl into bed with the other under the cover of darkness.

Strangely, I loved the Superior Spider-Man plotline. It was what got me back to reading Spider-Man, after the whole deal with the devil to regain his innocence thing.

They did a similar thing with the Avengers, with each of them being taken over my Extremis and the darker side of their personalities emerging. Superior Iron Man was the dumbest though; Iron Man turns evil and what does he do? He creates an app for profit lol

Making an over priced smartphone app, that is just devious!
Unofficial DDO Guide: http://goo.gl...
(It's probably the best help resource here, other than talking to people...)

Voting Standards: https://goo.gl...

And please disable Smart-Quotes: https://goo.gl...
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/27/2015 4:42:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Now that we've opened things up to the ethics of comic books, does anyone have any thoughts on the fact that Batman keeps recruiting and using Robins? Why does he continually put these kids in harms way? He was traumatized as a child, so I think part of it is the idea of equipping other children with the tools to fight injustice, but then they get their asses beaten and killed and he moves on to the next one lol
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

https://i.imgflip.com...
Ragnar
Posts: 1,658
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/28/2015 11:02:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/27/2015 4:42:33 PM, Maikuru wrote:
Now that we've opened things up to the ethics of comic books

As the OP, I wholly agree that this thread should be used for other ethics in comics discussions.

does anyone have any thoughts on the fact that Batman keeps recruiting and using Robins?

Perhaps they get too old to hold his interest the same way? On the up side, he's not a hypocrite, as he did end up using his own son in the same role, eventually getting the kid killed.

Why does he continually put these kids in harms way? He was traumatized as a child, so I think part of it is the idea of equipping other children with the tools to fight injustice, but then they get their asses beaten and killed and he moves on to the next one lol

I like the theory about dressing them up to fight crime, the way he couldn't at their age. It is much preferable to the joke theory that in those bright colors they are bullet magnets, as him getting shot would ruin everything, but there's always more orphans.

A much bigger ethical issue I have with Batman, is not just him choosing to not kill the Joker, but constantly saving Joker's life. After Joker crippled and sexually assaulted Batgirl, Nightwing killed the Joker... Batman decided to literally bring the Joker back to life!

I hate to say anyone is responsible for the actions of someone else, but if you brought Osama Bin Laden back to life, and he then organized a second attack to the scale of 9/11, I think some of that blame would fall on your shoulders.
Unofficial DDO Guide: http://goo.gl...
(It's probably the best help resource here, other than talking to people...)

Voting Standards: https://goo.gl...

And please disable Smart-Quotes: https://goo.gl...
YamaVonKarma
Posts: 7,570
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/28/2015 11:16:31 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Well... the Joker has raped several people now.
Black Mask also gives off that same vibe.
People who I've called as mafia DP1:
TUF, and YYW
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/28/2015 4:11:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/28/2015 11:02:05 AM, Ragnar wrote:
At 3/27/2015 4:42:33 PM, Maikuru wrote:
Now that we've opened things up to the ethics of comic books

As the OP, I wholly agree that this thread should be used for other ethics in comics discussions.

does anyone have any thoughts on the fact that Batman keeps recruiting and using Robins?

Perhaps they get too old to hold his interest the same way? On the up side, he's not a hypocrite, as he did end up using his own son in the same role, eventually getting the kid killed.

Why does he continually put these kids in harms way? He was traumatized as a child, so I think part of it is the idea of equipping other children with the tools to fight injustice, but then they get their asses beaten and killed and he moves on to the next one lol

I like the theory about dressing them up to fight crime, the way he couldn't at their age. It is much preferable to the joke theory that in those bright colors they are bullet magnets, as him getting shot would ruin everything, but there's always more orphans.

A much bigger ethical issue I have with Batman, is not just him choosing to not kill the Joker, but constantly saving Joker's life. After Joker crippled and sexually assaulted Batgirl, Nightwing killed the Joker... Batman decided to literally bring the Joker back to life!

I hate to say anyone is responsible for the actions of someone else, but if you brought Osama Bin Laden back to life, and he then organized a second attack to the scale of 9/11, I think some of that blame would fall on your shoulders.

I can't link it now but I actually did a debate entitled "Batman is partially responsible for the crimes of the Joker," which discusses some of these issues. Not the least of which is the fact that the Joker seems directly motivated by Batman.
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

https://i.imgflip.com...
Ragnar
Posts: 1,658
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/29/2015 5:32:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/28/2015 4:11:28 PM, Maikuru wrote:
At 3/28/2015 11:02:05 AM, Ragnar wrote:
A much bigger ethical issue I have with Batman, is not just him choosing to not kill the Joker, but constantly saving Joker's life. After Joker crippled and sexually assaulted Batgirl, Nightwing killed the Joker... Batman decided to literally bring the Joker back to life!

I hate to say anyone is responsible for the actions of someone else, but if you brought Osama Bin Laden back to life, and he then organized a second attack to the scale of 9/11, I think some of that blame would fall on your shoulders.

I can't link it now but I actually did a debate entitled "Batman is partially responsible for the crimes of the Joker," which discusses some of these issues. Not the least of which is the fact that the Joker seems directly motivated by Batman.

http://www.debate.org...

An interesting take on the Joker, was made by writer Grant Morrison, in which the Joker suffers a type of hyper-sanity, causing him to just mirror what is around him, and in Gotham a very bad thing indeed.
Unofficial DDO Guide: http://goo.gl...
(It's probably the best help resource here, other than talking to people...)

Voting Standards: https://goo.gl...

And please disable Smart-Quotes: https://goo.gl...