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GoT: TheMarySue stops watching (spoilers)

bluesteel
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5/25/2015 6:47:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
http://www.themarysue.com...

The reason was the Sansa rape scene in last week's episode. In essence, the rationale they give is that Sansa shouldn't have been raped because rape is overused on the show (e.g. Daenerys' scene with Khal Drogo was much more consensual in the books). In my mind, the flaw in their argument is that an equivalent rape scene happened in the books (it just happened to a different character whose place Sansa took).

Personally, I thought the scene was important to the show. The episode started building Sansa up as a stronger character, standing up to the kennel master's daughter, telling Reek to go f**k himself. There were hints that Sansa would eventually be able to win back the North, since characters were telling her she still had friends there. And then that scene at the end dashed those hopes. It's similar to how the show really built up Rob Stark, elevating him to a station he didn't really enjoy in the books (since the books don't narrate from his perspective). And then dashed those hopes with the Red Wedding.

I haven't read the books, but people keep saying that Sansa will become a stronger character. I think this is an important step on that journey. She's always been powerless. With Joffrey. With LittleFinger. Ramsay's abuse will hopefully force her to realize that she needs to take charge of her own life. Circe is in a similarly bad situation right now, but you know she's not going to take it sitting down. Sansa needs to become one of the "plotters" on the show, like Tyrion, LittleFinger, or Circe. You know they always have many ways of getting what they want. Because right now, she's just as weak as when Joffrey tore her clothes off and almost raped her.

So I think it's stupid to stop watching the show over this, especially when you admit that a similar scene happened in the books. And I think if Sansa does ultimately prevail, it will be a much more meaningful victory than if -- as the article suggests -- she just stabbed Ramsay right then and there.

That would be stupid, and bad writing.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,286
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5/25/2015 8:20:51 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I hate this sort of mentality, that ugly realities shouldn't be depicted in fiction. Sansa is in Winterfell to reclaim her homeland. She married Ramsay because she had to, and subjected herself to humiliation in pursuit of her goals. The entire time that scene was playing out, I had admiration of Sansa as a character because I knew that behind the cold facade she was plotting the complete and utter destruction of the Boltons. Stannis's army was on the March, as would Little Finger's. Sansa, in the place of Jeyne Poole, is not the helpless damsel in distress that Jeyne was; she is in effect the head of the Grand Northern Conspiracy in Winterfell, with one of the greatest warriors in Westeros at her command, with a brother at the Wall, and two friendly armies marching on Winterfell. She is in a position to throw open the gates of the city, or to replace Mance Rayder's role in the books as a terrorizer of Bolton troops within the besieged city's gates. This was, in effect, Sansa's final humiliation, which she bore with suppressed rage. After this, I think that we will see her plans to devastate the Boltons swing into action.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
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cybertron1998
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5/25/2015 12:10:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/25/2015 8:20:51 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
I hate this sort of mentality, that ugly realities shouldn't be depicted in fiction. Sansa is in Winterfell to reclaim her homeland. She married Ramsay because she had to, and subjected herself to humiliation in pursuit of her goals. The entire time that scene was playing out, I had admiration of Sansa as a character because I knew that behind the cold facade she was plotting the complete and utter destruction of the Boltons. Stannis's army was on the March, as would Little Finger's. Sansa, in the place of Jeyne Poole, is not the helpless damsel in distress that Jeyne was; she is in effect the head of the Grand Northern Conspiracy in Winterfell, with one of the greatest warriors in Westeros at her command, with a brother at the Wall, and two friendly armies marching on Winterfell. She is in a position to throw open the gates of the city, or to replace Mance Rayder's role in the books as a terrorizer of Bolton troops within the besieged city's gates. This was, in effect, Sansa's final humiliation, which she bore with suppressed rage. After this, I think that we will see her plans to devastate the Boltons swing into action.

Whats funny about this, is when people get mad at the ugly reality stuff, but there's some fiction that takes it all the way, and then a leap or two further. Some of the twisted stuff i've seen in movies and tv shows today is pretty hectic. A lot of new scifi shows have really done some things that would be considered questionable. I can count multiple things depicted in scenes of stuff i've watched including, incest, rape which was already said, sexual torture, some violence that crosses the line but doesn't get unrealistic, etc, etc.

People need to understand two things: this ugly reality stuff is going nowhere, and fiction is not all sunshine and rainbows. In fact most of Disney's stories are from grims fairy tails which are not happy at all. But seriously Fiction is a way people express themselves on a freer level, so theirs going to be stuff that crosses the line.
Epsilon: There are so many stories where some brave hero decides to give their life to save the day, and because of their sacrifice, the good guys win, the survivors all cheer, and everybody lives happily ever after. But the hero... never gets to see that ending. They'll never know if their sacrifice actually made a difference. They'll never know if the day was really saved. In the end, they just have to have faith.
Daltonian
Posts: 4,797
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5/25/2015 4:21:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/25/2015 8:20:51 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
I hate this sort of mentality, that ugly realities shouldn't be depicted in fiction. Sansa is in Winterfell to reclaim her homeland. She married Ramsay because she had to, and subjected herself to humiliation in pursuit of her goals. The entire time that scene was playing out, I had admiration of Sansa as a character because I knew that behind the cold facade she was plotting the complete and utter destruction of the Boltons. Stannis's army was on the March, as would Little Finger's. Sansa, in the place of Jeyne Poole, is not the helpless damsel in distress that Jeyne was; she is in effect the head of the Grand Northern Conspiracy in Winterfell, with one of the greatest warriors in Westeros at her command, with a brother at the Wall, and two friendly armies marching on Winterfell. She is in a position to throw open the gates of the city, or to replace Mance Rayder's role in the books as a terrorizer of Bolton troops within the besieged city's gates. This was, in effect, Sansa's final humiliation, which she bore with suppressed rage. After this, I think that we will see her plans to devastate the Boltons swing into action.
Yes, +1, omfg! EVERYTHING (well, maybe with the exception of the poorly done and kind of disappointing Dorne storyline from HBO) that is incorporated into this plot has grander importance. To suggest that it doesn't just because you didn't like seeing it is infantile.

A girl I talk to GoT about in school informed me that she'd decided to stop watching the show because of Sansa's rape scene. She thought it was especially unjustified because it was "irrelevant, non-canonical, and there to shock people". I mean, maybe some people are for whatever personal reasons uncomfortable seeing acts of sexual violence depicted on screen, but they've been watching since season 1 wherein Dany was 'raped' by Khal Drogo (albeit under monumentally different circumstances); and this is such a moral outrage? Where have these people been the last five seasons? What about when Cersei was 'raped' by Jaime; there were literally no complaints then *whatsoever*, probably because everybody hates Cersei.

If this had happened to a newly introduced Jeyne, I doubt anybody would care, either.

The thing I hate most about this is that, apparently to some people, Sansa can undergo relentless psychological torture, be forced to see the death of her father before her eyes, and struggle with the depart of her entire family, but being betrothed and subjected to Ramsay is what crosses the line. As if, when going by those standards, none of those other things did - as if a rape is somehow worse than an axe splitting a man's head or watching your own family die before you. It's stupid, nonsensical, and clearly vocalized by people who only seek to further ridiculous agendas, rather than appreciate the merits of GoT and ASOIAF.
F _ C K
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Daltonian
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5/25/2015 4:28:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/25/2015 6:47:15 AM, bluesteel wrote:
http://www.themarysue.com...

The reason was the Sansa rape scene in last week's episode. In essence, the rationale they give is that Sansa shouldn't have been raped because rape is overused on the show (e.g. Daenerys' scene with Khal Drogo was much more consensual in the books). In my mind, the flaw in their argument is that an equivalent rape scene happened in the books (it just happened to a different character whose place Sansa took).
In all honesty, if the show had depicted Jeyne being raped than Sansa, I'm 95% sure nobody would care. It's the fact that people can canonize on Sansa being a more beloved character to depict the scene in a more negative light.

Personally, I thought the scene was important to the show. The episode started building Sansa up as a stronger character, standing up to the kennel master's daughter, telling Reek to go f**k himself. There were hints that Sansa would eventually be able to win back the North, since characters were telling her she still had friends there. And then that scene at the end dashed those hopes. It's similar to how the show really built up Rob Stark, elevating him to a station he didn't really enjoy in the books (since the books don't narrate from his perspective). And then dashed those hopes with the Red Wedding.

I haven't read the books, but people keep saying that Sansa will become a stronger character. I think this is an important step on that journey. She's always been powerless. With Joffrey. With LittleFinger. Ramsay's abuse will hopefully force her to realize that she needs to take charge of her own life. Circe is in a similarly bad situation right now, but you know she's not going to take it sitting down. Sansa needs to become one of the "plotters" on the show, like Tyrion, LittleFinger, or Circe. You know they always have many ways of getting what they want. Because right now, she's just as weak as when Joffrey tore her clothes off and almost raped her.

So I think it's stupid to stop watching the show over this, especially when you admit that a similar scene happened in the books. And I think if Sansa does ultimately prevail, it will be a much more meaningful victory than if -- as the article suggests -- she just stabbed Ramsay right then and there.

That would be stupid, and bad writing.
Agree 200%. When feminist bloggers (because, to be realistic, those are the only people who are really outraged by this) suggest that Sansa's rape "weakens" her character, they're engaging in traces of subtle sexism themselves.. rape is not something that is inherently weakening. If anything, this should be seen as making Sansa stronger.

It's ridiculous to say, after having watched five seasons worth of brutal torture, murder, and psychological violence; that one rape of one character for a grander purpose is too much for you. As if things like that can be objectively classified in terms of whether or not they can be depicted - yes, you can show us a child being burned alive; but Sansa being raped somehow crosses a major line. Stupid x1000.
F _ C K
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Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,286
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5/25/2015 6:50:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/25/2015 4:28:10 PM, Daltonian wrote:
It's ridiculous to say, after having watched five seasons worth of brutal torture, murder, and psychological violence; that one rape of one character for a grander purpose is too much for you. As if things like that can be objectively classified in terms of whether or not they can be depicted - yes, you can show us a child being burned alive; but Sansa being raped somehow crosses a major line. Stupid x1000.

Pretty much this x1,000. These topics should be depicted with utterly brutal accuracy, because that will help people to understand why they're such a tragedy. People who sanctimoniously declare that topics are out of bounds are just looking for cause to champion without actually improving the situation.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Adam_Godzilla
Posts: 2,487
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5/25/2015 7:34:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/25/2015 6:47:15 AM, bluesteel wrote:
http://www.themarysue.com...

The reason was the Sansa rape scene in last week's episode. In essence, the rationale they give is that Sansa shouldn't have been raped because rape is overused on the show (e.g. Daenerys' scene with Khal Drogo was much more consensual in the books). In my mind, the flaw in their argument is that an equivalent rape scene happened in the books (it just happened to a different character whose place Sansa took).

Personally, I thought the scene was important to the show. The episode started building Sansa up as a stronger character, standing up to the kennel master's daughter, telling Reek to go f**k himself. There were hints that Sansa would eventually be able to win back the North, since characters were telling her she still had friends there. And then that scene at the end dashed those hopes. It's similar to how the show really built up Rob Stark, elevating him to a station he didn't really enjoy in the books (since the books don't narrate from his perspective). And then dashed those hopes with the Red Wedding.

I haven't read the books, but people keep saying that Sansa will become a stronger character. I think this is an important step on that journey. She's always been powerless. With Joffrey. With LittleFinger. Ramsay's abuse will hopefully force her to realize that she needs to take charge of her own life. Circe is in a similarly bad situation right now, but you know she's not going to take it sitting down. Sansa needs to become one of the "plotters" on the show, like Tyrion, LittleFinger, or Circe. You know they always have many ways of getting what they want. Because right now, she's just as weak as when Joffrey tore her clothes off and almost raped her.

So I think it's stupid to stop watching the show over this, especially when you admit that a similar scene happened in the books. And I think if Sansa does ultimately prevail, it will be a much more meaningful victory than if -- as the article suggests -- she just stabbed Ramsay right then and there.

That would be stupid, and bad writing.

The divide is pretty much between those who say the episode was predictable writing and those who thought it was impactful. If they had shown Sansa being raped in a private room with Ramsay, I would admit that's predictable. But the addition of Theon being forced to watch is what made the scene much more impactful.
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Neana
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5/26/2015 5:25:43 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
This season is the worst season of Got and It definitely sucks and I'm not even talking about that rape scene.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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5/26/2015 7:10:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/25/2015 6:47:15 AM, bluesteel wrote:
http://www.themarysue.com...

The reason was the Sansa rape scene in last week's episode. In essence, the rationale they give is that Sansa shouldn't have been raped because rape is overused on the show (e.g. Daenerys' scene with Khal Drogo was much more consensual in the books). In my mind, the flaw in their argument is that an equivalent rape scene happened in the books (it just happened to a different character whose place Sansa took).

Personally, I thought the scene was important to the show. The episode started building Sansa up as a stronger character, standing up to the kennel master's daughter, telling Reek to go f**k himself. There were hints that Sansa would eventually be able to win back the North, since characters were telling her she still had friends there. And then that scene at the end dashed those hopes. It's similar to how the show really built up Rob Stark, elevating him to a station he didn't really enjoy in the books (since the books don't narrate from his perspective). And then dashed those hopes with the Red Wedding.

I haven't read the books, but people keep saying that Sansa will become a stronger character. I think this is an important step on that journey. She's always been powerless. With Joffrey. With LittleFinger. Ramsay's abuse will hopefully force her to realize that she needs to take charge of her own life. Circe is in a similarly bad situation right now, but you know she's not going to take it sitting down. Sansa needs to become one of the "plotters" on the show, like Tyrion, LittleFinger, or Circe. You know they always have many ways of getting what they want. Because right now, she's just as weak as when Joffrey tore her clothes off and almost raped her.

So I think it's stupid to stop watching the show over this, especially when you admit that a similar scene happened in the books. And I think if Sansa does ultimately prevail, it will be a much more meaningful victory than if -- as the article suggests -- she just stabbed Ramsay right then and there.

That would be stupid, and bad writing.

I think it is stupid of that website to stop watching a very entertaining story just because the scriptwriters took it in a different direction than they wanted. But I wholly disagree that Sansa was built up to be a strong character. Sansa is a woman-child and was always written to be such a character. She is completely helpless to the politics played on her at King's Landing. She was pushed around by Cersei and Joffrey. Tyrion was the only one who treated her with dignity, yet when she reaches the Vale in Season 4, she complains that she was married to "the imp" going so far as to insult the only person who showed her kindness just because he was a dwarf. This showed that she still had a child's eye view of the world.

I believe GRRM created this character as a foil to the much stronger and mature Arya to show how the different paths that people coming from a similar background can go. Sansa's character is barely realistic. It is a caricature of all the things that are wrong with someone coming from a privileged background who can't control their own destiny. For instance, even though Sansa and Arya are in the same position once Eddard is beheaded, they take massively different paths and Arya is shown to be to the tough one braving out the elements and the weather as she tries to escape and travel with the Hound because her freedom is important to her. Sansa sits comfortably at King's Landing enjoying the food and warm bed but at the price of her freedom and being used a tool for manipulation by Cersei, Joffrey, and Tywin. It is hard for me to believe that this character was supposed to be built up as strong and it seems more like a "foil" character that are featured to illustrate the differences between the characters we're actually supposed to root for.

It doesn't surprise me that Sansa wasn't able to do anything to outmaneuver Ramsay and I wouldn't bank on her ever doing so. She'll probably wait for Jon Snow to rescue her or be rescued some other way which fits with the character profile that we have been provided so far. She needs somebody to hold her hand and rescue her. She fits into the TV Trope "Damsel in distress."

Anyways I agree with you that it is dumb to stop watching the show over it but I'm predicting a different outcome. I think GRRM has been pretty good with showing character flaws coming back to bite them (for instance Robb's blunders through the wars ending in his murder), so I'm sure they'll be a similar tragic storyline for Sansa.
bluesteel
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6/1/2015 3:38:25 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/26/2015 7:10:58 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 5/25/2015 6:47:15 AM, bluesteel wrote:
http://www.themarysue.com...

The reason was the Sansa rape scene in last week's episode. In essence, the rationale they give is that Sansa shouldn't have been raped because rape is overused on the show (e.g. Daenerys' scene with Khal Drogo was much more consensual in the books). In my mind, the flaw in their argument is that an equivalent rape scene happened in the books (it just happened to a different character whose place Sansa took).

Personally, I thought the scene was important to the show. The episode started building Sansa up as a stronger character, standing up to the kennel master's daughter, telling Reek to go f**k himself. There were hints that Sansa would eventually be able to win back the North, since characters were telling her she still had friends there. And then that scene at the end dashed those hopes. It's similar to how the show really built up Rob Stark, elevating him to a station he didn't really enjoy in the books (since the books don't narrate from his perspective). And then dashed those hopes with the Red Wedding.

I haven't read the books, but people keep saying that Sansa will become a stronger character. I think this is an important step on that journey. She's always been powerless. With Joffrey. With LittleFinger. Ramsay's abuse will hopefully force her to realize that she needs to take charge of her own life. Circe is in a similarly bad situation right now, but you know she's not going to take it sitting down. Sansa needs to become one of the "plotters" on the show, like Tyrion, LittleFinger, or Circe. You know they always have many ways of getting what they want. Because right now, she's just as weak as when Joffrey tore her clothes off and almost raped her.

So I think it's stupid to stop watching the show over this, especially when you admit that a similar scene happened in the books. And I think if Sansa does ultimately prevail, it will be a much more meaningful victory than if -- as the article suggests -- she just stabbed Ramsay right then and there.

That would be stupid, and bad writing.

I think it is stupid of that website to stop watching a very entertaining story just because the scriptwriters took it in a different direction than they wanted. But I wholly disagree that Sansa was built up to be a strong character. Sansa is a woman-child and was always written to be such a character. She is completely helpless to the politics played on her at King's Landing. She was pushed around by Cersei and Joffrey. Tyrion was the only one who treated her with dignity, yet when she reaches the Vale in Season 4, she complains that she was married to "the imp" going so far as to insult the only person who showed her kindness just because he was a dwarf. This showed that she still had a child's eye view of the world.

I believe GRRM created this character as a foil to the much stronger and mature Arya to show how the different paths that people coming from a similar background can go. Sansa's character is barely realistic. It is a caricature of all the things that are wrong with someone coming from a privileged background who can't control their own destiny. For instance, even though Sansa and Arya are in the same position once Eddard is beheaded, they take massively different paths and Arya is shown to be to the tough one braving out the elements and the weather as she tries to escape and travel with the Hound because her freedom is important to her. Sansa sits comfortably at King's Landing enjoying the food and warm bed but at the price of her freedom and being used a tool for manipulation by Cersei, Joffrey, and Tywin. It is hard for me to believe that this character was supposed to be built up as strong and it seems more like a "foil" character that are featured to illustrate the differences between the characters we're actually supposed to root for.

It doesn't surprise me that Sansa wasn't able to do anything to outmaneuver Ramsay and I wouldn't bank on her ever doing so. She'll probably wait for Jon Snow to rescue her or be rescued some other way which fits with the character profile that we have been provided so far. She needs somebody to hold her hand and rescue her. She fits into the TV Trope "Damsel in distress."

Anyways I agree with you that it is dumb to stop watching the show over it but I'm predicting a different outcome. I think GRRM has been pretty good with showing character flaws coming back to bite them (for instance Robb's blunders through the wars ending in his murder), so I'm sure they'll be a similar tragic storyline for Sansa.

Your comment seemed very insightful although I stopped reading when you mentioned GRRM. Unfortunately, this thread is filled with book spoilers for me (or at least hints of them).

Sansa definitely is the foil to Arya though. And to Robb. And now to Jon Snow. All of the other Starks seem to have been raised to be fighters. In a game of chess, Robb might have been a King, Arya a Queen, and Jon a rook. Sansa is a pawn.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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6/1/2015 4:01:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/1/2015 3:38:25 AM, bluesteel wrote:
Sansa definitely is the foil to Arya though. And to Robb. And now to Jon Snow. All of the other Starks seem to have been raised to be fighters. In a game of chess, Robb might have been a King, Arya a Queen, and Jon a rook. Sansa is a pawn.

I didn't read all the books. I get my info mostly from the wiki and analysis essays written online. And I read chapters that I thought were interesting. No time to read the entire book series.
bluesteel
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6/1/2015 4:51:36 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/1/2015 4:01:06 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 6/1/2015 3:38:25 AM, bluesteel wrote:
Sansa definitely is the foil to Arya though. And to Robb. And now to Jon Snow. All of the other Starks seem to have been raised to be fighters. In a game of chess, Robb might have been a King, Arya a Queen, and Jon a rook. Sansa is a pawn.

I didn't read all the books. I get my info mostly from the wiki and analysis essays written online. And I read chapters that I thought were interesting. No time to read the entire book series.

I thought it was interesting when during the Game of Faces, Arya was called out for lying when she said she left the Hound to die because she hated him. She was obviously more conflicted about it than that. I'm sure she justified it to herself by saying that he deserved to suffer, but on some level, she just couldn't bring herself to kill him with her own hand. He had been kind to her on many occasions.

But I think Sansa has a role to play in the future politics of the North, and I think it's more than being Ramsay's plaything. We've already seen how her obsession with house names and being queen backfired. I think it's time for her to grow a little. My guess is she helps Theon reclaim his identity as "Theon" and not "Reek" and that he helps her escape. And from there, I don't know. I assume people will rally around her as the last (known) remaining Stark.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
bluesteel
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6/1/2015 4:58:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/1/2015 4:01:06 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 6/1/2015 3:38:25 AM, bluesteel wrote:


Although another possibility is that Sansa will "escape" Ramsay only through whatever plan LittleFinger has for her. But LittleFinger is very devious. I doubt he left her there without a plan for using her.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
Saint_of_Me
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6/1/2015 11:44:46 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
How juvenile and narrow-minded for someone to quit watching a series they love simply because of one scene they find loathsome. Or that disagrees with their puritan ideals.

Besides, I am pretty sure Sansa orgasmed--as do many women during rape. So maybe the whole scene was not so bad after all?

I have some posts on this topic on a different thread. But here is a tidbit.........

http://www.experienceproject.com...
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.