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Logic Puzzle

Cody_Franklin
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5/12/2011 4:38:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Rather than working 5 minutes to create a sh*tty riddle, I've tried to come up with a legitimate logic puzzle. Never done it before, so I need a good ol' fashioned DDO review to see if it turns out the way I want, or whether there are some holes.

Starting conditions:

1. Three friends are kidnapped and imprisoned in a triangular room; however, each is robbed of two of his senses. One can still see, one can still speak, and one can still hear. Each is aware of their sensory abilities.

2. If one was looking straight down on the triangle: the speaker is shackled to the bottom-right vertex, the hearer to the bottom-left, and the seer to the top. Each also has a key. In addition, there is a locked door on the bottom side of the triangle, and another key in the dead center of the room. While they are aware of being shackled, the door, and the keys, they're unaware of the vertex to which each of them are shackled.

3. The speaker speaks perfect English. The hearer speaks perfect sign language. The seer can read the label on the key he possesses (all keys are labeled with regard to what they unlock)--it is not his own key. There are no other forms of communication allowed, though (e.g. using the key to tap in morse code).

4. Each pair can trade their keys once (i.e. hearer and seer can trade only one time), and each individual must trade at least once. The middle key, obviously, cannot be traded. The trading mechanism works by putting one's key in a bowl to initiate trade. A guard stationed in the room then takes the key to its desired destination, and the person on the other side can either A) trade his key, or B) decline the trade, returning his key to its owner.

5. At any time, an individual can try to unlock his shackles with the key he possesses. If he is correct, he is free. If incorrect, the key breaks, and he cannot be unshackled. Unfortunately, the warden's rules stipulate that either they all go free, or none go free; ergo, breaking a key means game over for all of them. Consequently, each is of the mind that he will not attempt to unlock his shackles unless he is certain that he possesses the correct key.

Based on these initial conditions, how do they free themselves and escape, and which key does each individual possess in the beginning?

Again, there's a particular problem I think the puzzle might have, but hearing you guys work on/criticize it may provide the solution I need, if one is needed.
bluesteel
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5/12/2011 4:42:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
As per your rules, aren't they f*cked if the key they need is in the center?

Or should I assume you've laid out the keys in a way that makes it possible and then work backwards?
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
badger
Posts: 11,793
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5/12/2011 4:50:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
the speaker starts it telling the seer to trade keys with him if the seer has the speaker's key.. this of course relayed by the sign language dude..

if he gets no key in return, then he asks for the sign language dude's key..

so the speaker gets his key..

the speaker then instructs the sign language dude to offer a trade with the seer.. to be accepted only if the seer still doesn't have his own key..

they each get the key they need to free themselves?
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Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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5/12/2011 4:50:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/12/2011 4:38:10 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Rather than working 5 minutes to create a sh*tty riddle, I've tried to come up with a legitimate logic puzzle. Never done it before, so I need a good ol' fashioned DDO review to see if it turns out the way I want, or whether there are some holes.

Starting conditions:

1. Three friends are kidnapped and imprisoned in a triangular room; however, each is robbed of two of his senses. One can still see, one can still speak, and one can still hear. Each is aware of their sensory abilities.

2. If one was looking straight down on the triangle: the speaker is shackled to the bottom-right vertex, the hearer to the bottom-left, and the seer to the top. Each also has a key. In addition, there is a locked door on the bottom side of the triangle, and another key in the dead center of the room. While they are aware of being shackled, the door, and the keys, they're unaware of the vertex to which each of them are shackled.

3. The speaker speaks perfect English. The hearer speaks perfect sign language. The seer can read the label on the key he possesses (all keys are labeled with regard to what they unlock)--it is not his own key. There are no other forms of communication allowed, though (e.g. using the key to tap in morse code).

4. Each pair can trade their keys once (i.e. hearer and seer can trade only one time), and each individual must trade at least once. The middle key, obviously, cannot be traded. The trading mechanism works by putting one's key in a bowl to initiate trade. A guard stationed in the room then takes the key to its desired destination, and the person on the other side can either A) trade his key, or B) decline the trade, returning his key to its owner.

5. At any time, an individual can try to unlock his shackles with the key he possesses. If he is correct, he is free. If incorrect, the key breaks, and he cannot be unshackled. Unfortunately, the warden's rules stipulate that either they all go free, or none go free; ergo, breaking a key means game over for all of them. Consequently, each is of the mind that he will not attempt to unlock his shackles unless he is certain that he possesses the correct key.

Based on these initial conditions, how do they free themselves and escape, and which key does each individual possess in the beginning?

Again, there's a particular problem I think the puzzle might have, but hearing you guys work on/criticize it may provide the solution I need, if one is needed.

Whosever key the seer has, he trades with them. This will give that person their key, and the seer will get the key and can check if it is his key or not. If it is not, then he trades with the other person to get his key. If it is his key, he can free himself, walk over to the last unfreed person, and help them free themselves (since they are blind, they may have trouble nagivating the lock and such), then he can trade after they are all free (to met the trade requirement), or he can trade first so that he has that person's key and can unlock them himself. Then he can grab the middle key and escort them all out of the room.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
nerdykiller
Posts: 856
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5/12/2011 4:51:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/12/2011 4:38:10 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Rather than working 5 minutes to create a sh*tty riddle, I've tried to come up with a legitimate logic puzzle. Never done it before, so I need a good ol' fashioned DDO review to see if it turns out the way I want, or whether there are some holes.

Starting conditions:

1. Three friends are kidnapped and imprisoned in a triangular room; however, each is robbed of two of his senses. One can still see, one can still speak, and one can still hear. Each is aware of their sensory abilities.

2. If one was looking straight down on the triangle: the speaker is shackled to the bottom-right vertex, the hearer to the bottom-left, and the seer to the top. Each also has a key. In addition, there is a locked door on the bottom side of the triangle, and another key in the dead center of the room. While they are aware of being shackled, the door, and the keys, they're unaware of the vertex to which each of them are shackled.

3. The speaker speaks perfect English. The hearer speaks perfect sign language. The seer can read the label on the key he possesses (all keys are labeled with regard to what they unlock)--it is not his own key. There are no other forms of communication allowed, though (e.g. using the key to tap in morse code).

4. Each pair can trade their keys once (i.e. hearer and seer can trade only one time), and each individual must trade at least once. The middle key, obviously, cannot be traded. The trading mechanism works by putting one's key in a bowl to initiate trade. A guard stationed in the room then takes the key to its desired destination, and the person on the other side can either A) trade his key, or B) decline the trade, returning his key to its owner.

5. At any time, an individual can try to unlock his shackles with the key he possesses. If he is correct, he is free. If incorrect, the key breaks, and he cannot be unshackled. Unfortunately, the warden's rules stipulate that either they all go free, or none go free; ergo, breaking a key means game over for all of them. Consequently, each is of the mind that he will not attempt to unlock his shackles unless he is certain that he possesses the correct key.

Based on these initial conditions, how do they free themselves and escape, and which key does each individual possess in the beginning?

Again, there's a particular problem I think the puzzle might have, but hearing you guys work on/criticize it may provide the solution I need, if one is needed.

WTF
LOL
badger
Posts: 11,793
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5/12/2011 4:54:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/12/2011 4:50:26 PM, badger wrote:
the speaker starts it telling the seer to trade keys with him if the seer has the speaker's key.. this of course relayed by the sign language dude..

if he gets no key in return, then he asks for the sign language dude's key..

so the speaker gets his key..

the speaker then instructs the sign language dude to offer a trade with the seer.. to be accepted only if the seer still doesn't have his own key..

they each get the key they need to free themselves?

oh actually it was only the seer who hadn't his own key..

well just add in that they seer and the sign language dude would have to trade once before anyone traded with the speaker.. the seer being the dude offered a trade by the speaker both times..
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Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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5/12/2011 4:56:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/12/2011 4:50:26 PM, badger wrote:
the speaker starts it telling the seer to trade keys with him if the seer has the speaker's key.. this of course relayed by the sign language dude..

The seer doesn't know sign language.


if he gets no key in return, then he asks for the sign language dude's key..

so the speaker gets his key..

the speaker then instructs the sign language dude to offer a trade with the seer.. to be accepted only if the seer still doesn't have his own key..

they each get the key they need to free themselves?
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
badger
Posts: 11,793
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5/12/2011 4:56:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/12/2011 4:54:06 PM, badger wrote:
At 5/12/2011 4:50:26 PM, badger wrote:
the speaker starts it telling the seer to trade keys with him if the seer has the speaker's key.. this of course relayed by the sign language dude..

if he gets no key in return, then he asks for the sign language dude's key..

so the speaker gets his key..

the speaker then instructs the sign language dude to offer a trade with the seer.. to be accepted only if the seer still doesn't have his own key..

they each get the key they need to free themselves?

oh actually it was only the seer who hadn't his own key..

well just add in that they seer and the sign language dude would have to trade once before anyone traded with the speaker.. the seer being the dude offered a trade by the speaker both times..

all of them would be in on the logic of course.. it'd just have to be primarily directed by the speaker so he knew what was going on.. followed by the sign language dude..
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badger
Posts: 11,793
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5/12/2011 4:57:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/12/2011 4:56:04 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 5/12/2011 4:50:26 PM, badger wrote:
the speaker starts it telling the seer to trade keys with him if the seer has the speaker's key.. this of course relayed by the sign language dude..

The seer doesn't know sign language.

i never said he did. it'd be relayed in sign language by the hearer :P


if he gets no key in return, then he asks for the sign language dude's key..

so the speaker gets his key..

the speaker then instructs the sign language dude to offer a trade with the seer.. to be accepted only if the seer still doesn't have his own key..

they each get the key they need to free themselves?
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Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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5/12/2011 4:58:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/12/2011 4:57:22 PM, badger wrote:
At 5/12/2011 4:56:04 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 5/12/2011 4:50:26 PM, badger wrote:
the speaker starts it telling the seer to trade keys with him if the seer has the speaker's key.. this of course relayed by the sign language dude..

The seer doesn't know sign language.

i never said he did. it'd be relayed in sign language by the hearer :P

So the seer sees a bunch of signs that he doesn't know what they mean. And so has no idea what to do.



if he gets no key in return, then he asks for the sign language dude's key..

so the speaker gets his key..

the speaker then instructs the sign language dude to offer a trade with the seer.. to be accepted only if the seer still doesn't have his own key..

they each get the key they need to free themselves?
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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5/12/2011 4:58:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/12/2011 4:56:04 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 5/12/2011 4:50:26 PM, badger wrote:
the speaker starts it telling the seer to trade keys with him if the seer has the speaker's key.. this of course relayed by the sign language dude..

The seer doesn't know sign language.

Problem on my part, sorry. I was assuming that the seer knew sign language like the hearer knew English. Simply put, here's the chain of communication:

Speaker-->Hearer
Hearer-->Seer
Seer-->Nobody
Nobody-->Speaker
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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5/12/2011 5:01:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Same solution, only 1 difference.

The Speaker is required to understand the logic to figure this plan out. He then passes the plan onto the hearer (through vocal communication), who then passes the plan onto the seer (through sign language).

Once all three are aware of the plan, they execute it as follows.

Whosever key the seer has, he trades with them. This will give that person their key, and the seer will get the key and can check if it is his key or not. If it is not, then he trades with the other person to get his key. If it is his key, he can free himself, walk over to the last unfreed person, and help them free themselves (since they are blind, they may have trouble nagivating the lock and such), then he can trade after they are all free (to met the trade requirement), or he can trade first so that he has that person's key and can unlock them himself. Then he can grab the middle key and escort them all out of the room.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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5/12/2011 5:03:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/12/2011 5:01:16 PM, OreEle wrote:
Same solution, only 1 difference.

The Speaker is required to understand the logic to figure this plan out. He then passes the plan onto the hearer (through vocal communication), who then passes the plan onto the seer (through sign language).

Once all three are aware of the plan, they execute it as follows.


Whosever key the seer has, he trades with them. This will give that person their key, and the seer will get the key and can check if it is his key or not. If it is not, then he trades with the other person to get his key. If it is his key, he can free himself, walk over to the last unfreed person, and help them free themselves (since they are blind, they may have trouble nagivating the lock and such), then he can trade after they are all free (to met the trade requirement), or he can trade first so that he has that person's key and can unlock them himself. Then he can grab the middle key and escort them all out of the room.

They have to trade prior to freeing themselves. They can't use their keys and then, via technicality, trade after they unshackle.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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5/12/2011 5:04:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/12/2011 5:01:16 PM, OreEle wrote:
Same solution, only 1 difference.

The Speaker is required to understand the logic to figure this plan out. He then passes the plan onto the hearer (through vocal communication), who then passes the plan onto the seer (through sign language).

Once all three are aware of the plan, they execute it as follows.


Whosever key the seer has, he trades with them. This will give that person their key, and the seer will get the key and can check if it is his key or not. If it is not, then he trades with the other person to get his key. If it is his key, he can free himself, walk over to the last unfreed person, and help them free themselves (since they are blind, they may have trouble nagivating the lock and such), then he can trade after they are all free (to met the trade requirement), or he can trade first so that he has that person's key and can unlock them himself. Then he can grab the middle key and escort them all out of the room.

This works perfectly, since they are not required to all use their keys at the same time.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
badger
Posts: 11,793
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5/12/2011 5:05:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
the puzzle's easy cody.. it's just the part that each of them must trade once that adds in a few tricky possible scenarios that i really couldn't be arse writing out the figurings for..
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badger
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5/12/2011 5:06:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/12/2011 5:04:53 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 5/12/2011 5:01:16 PM, OreEle wrote:
Same solution, only 1 difference.

The Speaker is required to understand the logic to figure this plan out. He then passes the plan onto the hearer (through vocal communication), who then passes the plan onto the seer (through sign language).

Once all three are aware of the plan, they execute it as follows.


Whosever key the seer has, he trades with them. This will give that person their key, and the seer will get the key and can check if it is his key or not. If it is not, then he trades with the other person to get his key. If it is his key, he can free himself, walk over to the last unfreed person, and help them free themselves (since they are blind, they may have trouble nagivating the lock and such), then he can trade after they are all free (to met the trade requirement), or he can trade first so that he has that person's key and can unlock them himself. Then he can grab the middle key and escort them all out of the room.

This works perfectly, since they are not required to all use their keys at the same time.

i was basing mine on that they had to.
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Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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5/12/2011 5:07:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/12/2011 5:04:53 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 5/12/2011 5:01:16 PM, OreEle wrote:
Same solution, only 1 difference.

The Speaker is required to understand the logic to figure this plan out. He then passes the plan onto the hearer (through vocal communication), who then passes the plan onto the seer (through sign language).

Once all three are aware of the plan, they execute it as follows.


Whosever key the seer has, he trades with them. This will give that person their key, and the seer will get the key and can check if it is his key or not. If it is not, then he trades with the other person to get his key. If it is his key, he can free himself, walk over to the last unfreed person, and help them free themselves (since they are blind, they may have trouble nagivating the lock and such), then he can trade after they are all free (to met the trade requirement), or he can trade first so that he has that person's key and can unlock them himself. Then he can grab the middle key and escort them all out of the room.

This works perfectly, since they are not required to all use their keys at the same time.

That assumes that all three of them hold shackle-keys.

Additionally, I may modify the puzzle so that each pair not only gets a single trade, but must use it before trying to free themselves. Like I said, this is still in the beta-test stage. :P
Ore_Ele
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5/12/2011 5:07:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/12/2011 5:03:58 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 5/12/2011 5:01:16 PM, OreEle wrote:
Same solution, only 1 difference.

The Speaker is required to understand the logic to figure this plan out. He then passes the plan onto the hearer (through vocal communication), who then passes the plan onto the seer (through sign language).

Once all three are aware of the plan, they execute it as follows.


Whosever key the seer has, he trades with them. This will give that person their key, and the seer will get the key and can check if it is his key or not. If it is not, then he trades with the other person to get his key. If it is his key, he can free himself, walk over to the last unfreed person, and help them free themselves (since they are blind, they may have trouble nagivating the lock and such), then he can trade after they are all free (to met the trade requirement), or he can trade first so that he has that person's key and can unlock them himself. Then he can grab the middle key and escort them all out of the room.

They have to trade prior to freeing themselves. They can't use their keys and then, via technicality, trade after they unshackle.

Do we know if each has the wrong key to start with? Or just the seer?

I believe that with the trading restrictions (and the fact that they can't trade after being freed) unless they all start without the correct keys, then it is imposible.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
badger
Posts: 11,793
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5/12/2011 5:08:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/12/2011 5:04:53 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 5/12/2011 5:01:16 PM, OreEle wrote:
Same solution, only 1 difference.

The Speaker is required to understand the logic to figure this plan out. He then passes the plan onto the hearer (through vocal communication), who then passes the plan onto the seer (through sign language).

Once all three are aware of the plan, they execute it as follows.


Whosever key the seer has, he trades with them. This will give that person their key, and the seer will get the key and can check if it is his key or not. If it is not, then he trades with the other person to get his key. If it is his key, he can free himself, walk over to the last unfreed person, and help them free themselves (since they are blind, they may have trouble nagivating the lock and such), then he can trade after they are all free (to met the trade requirement), or he can trade first so that he has that person's key and can unlock them himself. Then he can grab the middle key and escort them all out of the room.

This works perfectly, since they are not required to all use their keys at the same time.

actually it doesn't work perfectly in that they all have to have traded at least once :P ..though it'd be an easy fix.
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Cody_Franklin
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5/12/2011 5:10:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/12/2011 5:07:53 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 5/12/2011 5:03:58 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 5/12/2011 5:01:16 PM, OreEle wrote:
Same solution, only 1 difference.

The Speaker is required to understand the logic to figure this plan out. He then passes the plan onto the hearer (through vocal communication), who then passes the plan onto the seer (through sign language).

Once all three are aware of the plan, they execute it as follows.


Whosever key the seer has, he trades with them. This will give that person their key, and the seer will get the key and can check if it is his key or not. If it is not, then he trades with the other person to get his key. If it is his key, he can free himself, walk over to the last unfreed person, and help them free themselves (since they are blind, they may have trouble nagivating the lock and such), then he can trade after they are all free (to met the trade requirement), or he can trade first so that he has that person's key and can unlock them himself. Then he can grab the middle key and escort them all out of the room.

They have to trade prior to freeing themselves. They can't use their keys and then, via technicality, trade after they unshackle.

Do we know if each has the wrong key to start with? Or just the seer?

Only information is that the seer doesn't possess his own key. The identity of the other keys is unknown until the seer reads their labels.

I believe that with the trading restrictions (and the fact that they can't trade after being freed) unless they all start without the correct keys, then it is imposible.

They can't trade after being freed, but they can unlock shackles. Like, if all of them have traded, and the seer is free with the speaker's key, he can unlock the speaker without trading with him.
headphonegut
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5/12/2011 5:11:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
you have say what the seer reads on his key
crying to soldiers coming home to their dogs why do I torment myself with these videos?
badger
Posts: 11,793
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5/12/2011 5:16:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/12/2011 5:10:01 PM, badger wrote:
and i hadn't considered that all three of them mightn't have shackle keys.. it's still easy though.

just long.
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Ore_Ele
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5/12/2011 5:24:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/12/2011 5:07:02 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 5/12/2011 5:04:53 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 5/12/2011 5:01:16 PM, OreEle wrote:
Same solution, only 1 difference.

The Speaker is required to understand the logic to figure this plan out. He then passes the plan onto the hearer (through vocal communication), who then passes the plan onto the seer (through sign language).

Once all three are aware of the plan, they execute it as follows.


Whosever key the seer has, he trades with them. This will give that person their key, and the seer will get the key and can check if it is his key or not. If it is not, then he trades with the other person to get his key. If it is his key, he can free himself, walk over to the last unfreed person, and help them free themselves (since they are blind, they may have trouble nagivating the lock and such), then he can trade after they are all free (to met the trade requirement), or he can trade first so that he has that person's key and can unlock them himself. Then he can grab the middle key and escort them all out of the room.

This works perfectly, since they are not required to all use their keys at the same time.

That assumes that all three of them hold shackle-keys.

They have to. If they cannot trade after they are freed, then if the key in the middle is a shackle-key, it cannot be obtained expect by someone that is freed (pending on how big the room is), and then they cannot trade it to someone.


Additionally, I may modify the puzzle so that each pair not only gets a single trade, but must use it before trying to free themselves. Like I said, this is still in the beta-test stage. :P
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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5/12/2011 5:25:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/12/2011 5:10:43 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 5/12/2011 5:07:53 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 5/12/2011 5:03:58 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 5/12/2011 5:01:16 PM, OreEle wrote:
Same solution, only 1 difference.

The Speaker is required to understand the logic to figure this plan out. He then passes the plan onto the hearer (through vocal communication), who then passes the plan onto the seer (through sign language).

Once all three are aware of the plan, they execute it as follows.


Whosever key the seer has, he trades with them. This will give that person their key, and the seer will get the key and can check if it is his key or not. If it is not, then he trades with the other person to get his key. If it is his key, he can free himself, walk over to the last unfreed person, and help them free themselves (since they are blind, they may have trouble nagivating the lock and such), then he can trade after they are all free (to met the trade requirement), or he can trade first so that he has that person's key and can unlock them himself. Then he can grab the middle key and escort them all out of the room.

They have to trade prior to freeing themselves. They can't use their keys and then, via technicality, trade after they unshackle.

Do we know if each has the wrong key to start with? Or just the seer?

Only information is that the seer doesn't possess his own key. The identity of the other keys is unknown until the seer reads their labels.

I believe that with the trading restrictions (and the fact that they can't trade after being freed) unless they all start without the correct keys, then it is imposible.

They can't trade after being freed, but they can unlock shackles. Like, if all of them have traded, and the seer is free with the speaker's key, he can unlock the speaker without trading with him.

can he lock himself back up to be able to trade again?
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"