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Assassin's Creed Mafia - Day 3

DetectableNinja
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10/23/2011 9:53:25 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
As the sun rises, the people awake, rubbing their eyes—they had a good sleep from their sense of security they created. Sadly, they soon learn it was a security taken for granted, at the sound of women screaming.

The Romans rush toward the sound of the ruckus. When they arrive at la Rosa in Fiore [the Blooming Rose], the most famous brothel in Roma, they find the whorehouse's, erm, "ladies of the night," standing in a circle, weeping. The Romans soon realize why—Claudia Auditore da Firenze [bluesteel] lay dead in the middle. She had been stabbed through the abdomen by, from the wound, what appeared to be some type of sword.

They soon learn from the courtesans that Claudia would send them out to collect information—tidbits about the Templars. Unfortunately, the one Night she WAS alive for garnered her rather useless information.

The Romans take the body back to the Parthenon, and lay it with Ninja and spinko.

Vai, amico, libero da fardelli e paure. [Go forward, friend, unburdened and unafraid.]

Requiescat in pace.

DEAD ROLE PMs

Marauder - You are Leonardo da Vinci, an ally of the Assassini and part of Roma. You are a true Renaissance man, and your study of human anatomy gives you the ability to prevent someone from dying. Every Night, you may choose to select ONE and ONLY ONE other player to protect throughout the Night. However, your lover, Salai, is linked to you on a deep level: should he die, you will kill yourself out of grief. You win with Roma.

MIG - You are Salai [The Devil], assistant and lover to Leonardo da Vinci, and part of Roma. You have no special powers, but, if your lover dies, you will kill yourself out of despair. You win with Roma.

Logic_on_rails - You are Lucrezia Borgia, a high ranking member of the Templar Order. Being the daughter of the Grand Master, you are allowed to sit in during their meetings. Every Night you and the other Templars must reach a consensus as to the ONE and ONLY ONE person you wish to have killed. Unfortunately, because you are the illegitimate daughter of the Grand Master, you are not endowed with any special powers, besides being able to take part in the consensus. You win with the Templars.

bluesteel - You are Claudia Auditore da Firenze, part of the Assassins, and part of Roma. You run Rome's largest brothel, la Rosa in Fiore [Blooming Rose]. As the madame, you can have your courtesans help you. Every Night, your courtesans will spy on the Templars. Thus, every Night you will learn a fact about them (how many there are, etc.). You win with Roma.

LIVING PLAYERS
Medic
Lickdafoot
tvellalott
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Andromeda
Mestari
Marauder 2 (Replaces Nerdykiller)

Rockylightning
Quarterexhange
Blackhawk1331

It takes 6 votes for a lynch. Day 3 is scheduled to end at 9:00 pm, CST, Tuesday.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
blackhawk1331
Posts: 4,932
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10/23/2011 10:10:17 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Mestari, who did you investigate?
Because you said it was a waste, numb nuts. - Drafter

So fvck you. :) - TV

Use prima facie correctly or not at all. - Noumena
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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10/23/2011 11:16:08 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 10:10:17 AM, blackhawk1331 wrote:
Mestari, who did you investigate?

I'm interested in the answer to this as well. I should have been confirmed by his investigation, and that investigation would pretty much refute my previous charges against him.

I'll wait for those answers, but for now I want to call attention to the fact that F-16 Falcon has been super active in other games, but has only posted a couple times throughout this game. I'm curious as to whether Nerdy was replaced for inactivity, or not. because he has been as active as Falcon has. Maybe Falcon is posting in the mafia pm and that's why Nerdy was replaced instead of Falcon. Regardless, I say we put some pressure on him to claim, and to get him in the game.

VTL F-16 Falcon
blackhawk1331
Posts: 4,932
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10/23/2011 11:32:00 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I agree with medic. Let's see f-16's reaction. VTL F-16 for a character claim. (he didn't give one yet, right?)
Because you said it was a waste, numb nuts. - Drafter

So fvck you. :) - TV

Use prima facie correctly or not at all. - Noumena
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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10/23/2011 11:40:05 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Medic- La Volpe- Spymaster- Roma
Man-is-good - Salai - Vanilla- Roma - DEAD
Lickdafoot
tvellalott - Subject 16 - 3rd Party Survivor - Gets to leave us a big FU when he dies.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Andromeda
Mestari - Ezio Auditore da Firenze - JOAT Investigator - Roma
bluesteel - Claudia Auditore da Firenze - Spy - Roma- DEAD
Marauder- Leonardo da Vinci - Protector - Roma - DEAD
Rockylightning- Marguerita dei Campi- Vanilla- Roma
Quarterexhange- ????- Double vote on even days- Roma
Blackhawk1331 - Nicolo Maciavelli - Roma
Logic_on_rails- Lucrezia Borgia- Goon- Templar- DEAD
Marauder2 (for Nerdy)

Here is our list from last dp, updated with recent changes.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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10/23/2011 12:06:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I was more active in the other game because it was more my level as it was a beginner's game. This one was harder and more complicated to follow.

My character is Marcus Brutus. I win with Roma.
blackhawk1331
Posts: 4,932
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10/23/2011 12:30:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
UNVOTE

So then can we assume that if there's a Julius Caesar, he's a templar?
Because you said it was a waste, numb nuts. - Drafter

So fvck you. :) - TV

Use prima facie correctly or not at all. - Noumena
Logic_on_rails
Posts: 2,445
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10/23/2011 3:11:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Look forward to my endgame comments.

The irony is that I argued explicitly not to kill Bluesteel during NP 1 due to fairness. When I wasn't around, he died. And after all of that struggle?

By the way, I'm not helping Mafia in spirit form (not allowed to) . I'm totally dead so to speak.
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
Mestari
Posts: 4,656
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10/23/2011 3:35:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I investigated Medic to be guilty. VTL Medic. More to come later, on my cell atm.
Rules of Mafia

1. Mestari is never third party.
2. If Mestari claims an intricate and page long TP role, he's telling the truth.
3. Mestari always jointly wins with the town.
3b. If he doesn't he's mafia.
3c. If he was mafia you wouldn't suspect him in the first place.
4. If you lynch Mestari you will lose because he will be the third party Doctor or some other townie power role.
5. DP1 lynches are good.
6. The answer is always no.
blackhawk1331
Posts: 4,932
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10/23/2011 3:39:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 3:35:14 PM, Mestari wrote:
I investigated Medic to be guilty. VTL Medic. More to come later, on my cell atm.

VTL MEDIC Would make sense. The role medic supposedly gave up would give him the chance of finding a mafia. The info he got guaranteed a mafia. I wouldn't be surprised if he bussed LoR to get suspicion off of himself.
Because you said it was a waste, numb nuts. - Drafter

So fvck you. :) - TV

Use prima facie correctly or not at all. - Noumena
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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10/23/2011 4:24:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 3:35:14 PM, Mestari wrote:
I investigated Medic to be guilty. VTL Medic. More to come later, on my cell atm.

**Mestari's agonizing scream pierces the early evening quiet, as the trap snaps**

Wrong. Now I know you're mafia and you walked right into the trap. I wrote my earlier post that way intentionally to set a trap for you. Remember last dp when I claimed, I said I have a network of spies. Last night, I spied on myself. I am able to detect what action was done to the spied on player. I have already verified that ANY action done to the targeted player would be detected, including LD, and I verified that I could spy on myself and recieve the same info. The results from last night show that I was not targeted with ANY action(emphasis mine).

I handed you all a mafioso's head on a platter last dp. It was verified by the mod, that it was not a mafia bus job. In addition, a good portion of last phase, I spent arguing in defense of someone who has now been confirmed a townie. Why did I need to defend him?? Because Mestari was leading a lynch party against him. For those reasons, there is no reasonable excuse why you guys shouldn't see me as a confirmed townie, and trust my information. I'm even mod confirmed. Mestari has been caught red-handed, and my charges against him last dp, have proven true.

This lynch should take about 10 minutes.

Unvote
VTL Mestari
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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10/23/2011 4:33:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Well, it is Mestari after all. The only way to be safe is to assume him guilty until proven innocent. Good job, Medic. Unvote (if I have my vote on someone else)

VTL Mestari
blackhawk1331
Posts: 4,932
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10/23/2011 4:40:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The mod did say that the ghost of dninja convicted logic. Plus, that would mean three investigative roles. UNVOTE VTL MESTARI

Seeing as how we are still currently in the situation where a mislynch is better than a no lynch, we can get medic next DP if he's wrong.
Because you said it was a waste, numb nuts. - Drafter

So fvck you. :) - TV

Use prima facie correctly or not at all. - Noumena
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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10/23/2011 4:49:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 3:39:59 PM, blackhawk1331 wrote:
At 10/23/2011 3:35:14 PM, Mestari wrote:
I investigated Medic to be guilty. VTL Medic. More to come later, on my cell atm.

VTL MEDIC Would make sense. The role medic supposedly gave up would give him the chance of finding a mafia. The info he got guaranteed a mafia. I wouldn't be surprised if he bussed LoR to get suspicion off of himself.

lol...And here we have the third mafia scumbag. The mod's reaction last phase proves beyond doubt that this was not a mafia bus job. Obvious attempt to cast suspicion on a confirmed townie using deception. It's illogical though, given that the mod said that he and Logic had reconciled. Why would the deceased and the mod need reconciliation for a mafia bus job?? Of course they wouldn't.

So wishy washy for a good portion of the game BH, just back and forth with no real pro-town theories of your own. Until an opportunity comes up for you to turn the suspicion on me, then you seem to have a theory. But that theory doesn't make sense. He claims I need to get suspicion off me, but I don't, I'm now as confirmed town as anyone can ever be in mafia.

One final thing that cements BH as mafia. He admits that I "got" the info. If this were a bus job, and I were mafia, why would I need to "get" the info that the mod has proven that I got. I would already have that info if I were mafia. Would I not??Why would I need the ghost of il ninja to tell me that Logic was mafia if he was my teammate and we were in a pm together?? This contradiction shows that BH is just trying to get suspicion on me, but it fails miserably.

Next to lynch, Blackhawk.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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10/23/2011 4:52:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 4:40:11 PM, blackhawk1331 wrote:
The mod did say that the ghost of dninja convicted logic. Plus, that would mean three investigative roles. UNVOTE VTL MESTARI

Seeing as how we are still currently in the situation where a mislynch is better than a no lynch, we can get medic next DP if he's wrong.

Another subtle attempt to throw in the possibility of me being mafia in spite of me being confirmed townie.
Mestari
Posts: 4,656
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10/23/2011 5:30:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Medic, no need to lie about anybody visiting you. If you are, in fact, the watcher, then why didn't you watch me as it was likely that I would have been killed if not roleblocked? It seems to me that you were framed last night, as I was informed via role pm that you were guilty. I come to this conclusion because I've reread the kill post from last DP (which I admittedly did not pay close attention to), and you are, in fact, confirmed. Unvote.

It doesn't even make sense for me to be mafia anyway. I claimed the main character early in the game, knowing that a counter-claim would be extremely likely if I was faking. Also, did you not notice that the person who demanded protection on me and confirmed me as a town died last night?

Onto more productive matters, I believe the remaining mafiosos are all relatively inexperienced. It would not make sense for TV to kill Bluesteel as he understands that they are on-par skill wise and it would make him look guilty is Bluesteel is innocent. His survivor claim also seems more reasonable when considering his inactivity. Logic is the type of player, in my experience, who would argue to keep Bluesteel alive, and would be in outrage if less experienced players undermined him, which I believe gives motive to his post in this thread. Pressure should be on the noobs. VTL F-16.
Rules of Mafia

1. Mestari is never third party.
2. If Mestari claims an intricate and page long TP role, he's telling the truth.
3. Mestari always jointly wins with the town.
3b. If he doesn't he's mafia.
3c. If he was mafia you wouldn't suspect him in the first place.
4. If you lynch Mestari you will lose because he will be the third party Doctor or some other townie power role.
5. DP1 lynches are good.
6. The answer is always no.
Mestari
Posts: 4,656
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10/23/2011 5:31:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 4:40:11 PM, blackhawk1331 wrote:
The mod did say that the ghost of dninja convicted logic. Plus, that would mean three investigative roles. UNVOTE VTL MESTARI

Seeing as how we are still currently in the situation where a mislynch is better than a no lynch, we can get medic next DP if he's wrong.

If I am lynched this DP, and come up as Ezio (who I am), DO NOT LYNCH MEDIC. He is in fact confirmed. He was framed last night, causing my guilty investigation. He claimed that a ghost convicted Logic BEFORE DNinja confirmed the ghost was involved. It also makes sense for him to get this info considering we were getting dominated.
Rules of Mafia

1. Mestari is never third party.
2. If Mestari claims an intricate and page long TP role, he's telling the truth.
3. Mestari always jointly wins with the town.
3b. If he doesn't he's mafia.
3c. If he was mafia you wouldn't suspect him in the first place.
4. If you lynch Mestari you will lose because he will be the third party Doctor or some other townie power role.
5. DP1 lynches are good.
6. The answer is always no.
Mestari
Posts: 4,656
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10/23/2011 5:34:40 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
It just dawned upon me that medic might have been framed AND roleblocked, as he was a likely investigation target and his role confirmed Logic as guilty (albeit a one-time use, he did claim a network of spies). This could explain why you did not see anybody visit you.
Rules of Mafia

1. Mestari is never third party.
2. If Mestari claims an intricate and page long TP role, he's telling the truth.
3. Mestari always jointly wins with the town.
3b. If he doesn't he's mafia.
3c. If he was mafia you wouldn't suspect him in the first place.
4. If you lynch Mestari you will lose because he will be the third party Doctor or some other townie power role.
5. DP1 lynches are good.
6. The answer is always no.
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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10/23/2011 5:35:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Mestari, did you seriously just take your vote off of medic when you have a guilty on him and he leading a lynch against you, claiming you're a liar?
o.O; WAT?!

VOTE Mestari

If he flips town, we lynch medic tomorrow. If he flips mafia, we lynch blackhawk1331 tomorrow.

Also, please don't kill me. :P
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
Using mafia tactics in real-life: http://www.debate.org...
6 years of DDO: http://www.debate.org...
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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10/23/2011 5:38:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 3:11:29 PM, Logic_on_rails wrote:
Look forward to my endgame comments.

The irony is that I argued explicitly not to kill Bluesteel during NP 1 due to fairness. When I wasn't around, he died. And after all of that struggle?

By the way, I'm not helping Mafia in spirit form (not allowed to) . I'm totally dead so to speak.

First we have the ghost of ilninja, now we have the ghost of illogic. :)

I'm concerned about this comment. Who looks forward to endgame comments in dp 3?? Just paranoia I guess.
Mestari
Posts: 4,656
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10/23/2011 5:40:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 5:35:47 PM, tvellalott wrote:
Mestari, did you seriously just take your vote off of medic when you have a guilty on him and he leading a lynch against you, claiming you're a liar?
o.O; WAT?!

VOTE Mestari

If he flips town, we lynch medic tomorrow. If he flips mafia, we lynch blackhawk1331 tomorrow.

Also, please don't kill me. :P

Did you not read my past 3 posts?
Rules of Mafia

1. Mestari is never third party.
2. If Mestari claims an intricate and page long TP role, he's telling the truth.
3. Mestari always jointly wins with the town.
3b. If he doesn't he's mafia.
3c. If he was mafia you wouldn't suspect him in the first place.
4. If you lynch Mestari you will lose because he will be the third party Doctor or some other townie power role.
5. DP1 lynches are good.
6. The answer is always no.
blackhawk1331
Posts: 4,932
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10/23/2011 5:41:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 5:35:47 PM, tvellalott wrote:
Mestari, did you seriously just take your vote off of medic when you have a guilty on him and he leading a lynch against you, claiming you're a liar?
o.O; WAT?!

VOTE Mestari

If he flips town, we lynch medic tomorrow. If he flips mafia, we lynch blackhawk1331 tomorrow.

Also, please don't kill me. :P

UNVOTE Right now, I honestly don't know which to believe. Mestari is saying medic's innocent. I don't think a mafia member would support medic if he's town. I would like a better explanation of medic's suspicions of me because they don't entirely make sense to me.
Because you said it was a waste, numb nuts. - Drafter

So fvck you. :) - TV

Use prima facie correctly or not at all. - Noumena
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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10/23/2011 5:43:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 5:41:52 PM, blackhawk1331 wrote:
UNVOTE Right now, I honestly don't know which to believe. Mestari is saying medic's innocent. I don't think a mafia member would support medic if he's town. I would like a better explanation of medic's suspicions of me because they don't entirely make sense to me.

Why?
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
Using mafia tactics in real-life: http://www.debate.org...
6 years of DDO: http://www.debate.org...
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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10/23/2011 5:56:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
THE DEATH TRAIN'S PASSENGER LIST

Mestari: 3/6 (F16, Medic, TV)
F-16_Fighting_Falcon: 1/6 (Mestari)
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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10/23/2011 6:25:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 5:41:52 PM, blackhawk1331 wrote:
At 10/23/2011 5:35:47 PM, tvellalott wrote:
Mestari, did you seriously just take your vote off of medic when you have a guilty on him and he leading a lynch against you, claiming you're a liar?
o.O; WAT?!

VOTE Mestari

If he flips town, we lynch medic tomorrow. If he flips mafia, we lynch blackhawk1331 tomorrow.

Also, please don't kill me. :P

UNVOTE Right now, I honestly don't know which to believe. Mestari is saying medic's innocent. I don't think a mafia member would support medic if he's town. I would like a better explanation of medic's suspicions of me because they don't entirely make sense to me.

Now I know for sure. Did you sleep so hard that you forgot about spending the last two days arguing with Falcon after he defended LDF in the other game, and turned out to be mafia?? Come on dude, after the game you just finished, you're going to pretend that you don't know that the mafia have to be ruthless bastards, and lie, and come up with elaborate unconfirmable stories??...lol...This isn't a beginner game, that's not going to fly. Back to the drawing board.

What doesn't make sense to you??
Mestari
Posts: 4,656
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10/23/2011 6:27:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 6:25:18 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 10/23/2011 5:41:52 PM, blackhawk1331 wrote:
At 10/23/2011 5:35:47 PM, tvellalott wrote:
Mestari, did you seriously just take your vote off of medic when you have a guilty on him and he leading a lynch against you, claiming you're a liar?
o.O; WAT?!

VOTE Mestari

If he flips town, we lynch medic tomorrow. If he flips mafia, we lynch blackhawk1331 tomorrow.

Also, please don't kill me. :P

UNVOTE Right now, I honestly don't know which to believe. Mestari is saying medic's innocent. I don't think a mafia member would support medic if he's town. I would like a better explanation of medic's suspicions of me because they don't entirely make sense to me.

Now I know for sure. Did you sleep so hard that you forgot about spending the last two days arguing with Falcon after he defended LDF in the other game, and turned out to be mafia?? Come on dude, after the game you just finished, you're going to pretend that you don't know that the mafia have to be ruthless bastards, and lie, and come up with elaborate unconfirmable stories??...lol...This isn't a beginner game, that's not going to fly. Back to the drawing board.

What doesn't make sense to you??

So you don't even think it was possible that you were roleblocked after your role had the mod confirm a mafioso? And framed when you were a likely investigation target? How do you explain Bluesteel dying after defending me?
Rules of Mafia

1. Mestari is never third party.
2. If Mestari claims an intricate and page long TP role, he's telling the truth.
3. Mestari always jointly wins with the town.
3b. If he doesn't he's mafia.
3c. If he was mafia you wouldn't suspect him in the first place.
4. If you lynch Mestari you will lose because he will be the third party Doctor or some other townie power role.
5. DP1 lynches are good.
6. The answer is always no.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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10/23/2011 6:38:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 5:34:40 PM, Mestari wrote:
It just dawned upon me that medic might have been framed AND roleblocked, as he was a likely investigation target and his role confirmed Logic as guilty (albeit a one-time use, he did claim a network of spies). This could explain why you did not see anybody visit you.

Neither of those scenarios are possible. The response in my role pm clearly shows that the action that I requested, to spy on myself, was indeed carried out. If I were rb'd, it would not have said that, or given me confirmation that I spied on myself. As for the frame, that would require someone to target me for an action. I would have picked that up by spying on myself.

As I said before, spying on a player would allow me to learn ANY action/s that are performed on that player, by another player.
Mestari
Posts: 4,656
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10/23/2011 6:42:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 6:38:45 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 10/23/2011 5:34:40 PM, Mestari wrote:
It just dawned upon me that medic might have been framed AND roleblocked, as he was a likely investigation target and his role confirmed Logic as guilty (albeit a one-time use, he did claim a network of spies). This could explain why you did not see anybody visit you.

Neither of those scenarios are possible. The response in my role pm clearly shows that the action that I requested, to spy on myself, was indeed carried out. If I were rb'd, it would not have said that, or given me confirmation that I spied on myself. As for the frame, that would require someone to target me for an action. I would have picked that up by spying on myself.

As I said before, spying on a player would allow me to learn ANY action/s that are performed on that player, by another player.

Ask DNinja if it is possible that you were roleblocked.
Rules of Mafia

1. Mestari is never third party.
2. If Mestari claims an intricate and page long TP role, he's telling the truth.
3. Mestari always jointly wins with the town.
3b. If he doesn't he's mafia.
3c. If he was mafia you wouldn't suspect him in the first place.
4. If you lynch Mestari you will lose because he will be the third party Doctor or some other townie power role.
5. DP1 lynches are good.
6. The answer is always no.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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10/23/2011 7:43:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 6:42:58 PM, Mestari wrote:
At 10/23/2011 6:38:45 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 10/23/2011 5:34:40 PM, Mestari wrote:
It just dawned upon me that medic might have been framed AND roleblocked, as he was a likely investigation target and his role confirmed Logic as guilty (albeit a one-time use, he did claim a network of spies). This could explain why you did not see anybody visit you.

Neither of those scenarios are possible. The response in my role pm clearly shows that the action that I requested, to spy on myself, was indeed carried out. If I were rb'd, it would not have said that, or given me confirmation that I spied on myself. As for the frame, that would require someone to target me for an action. I would have picked that up by spying on myself.

As I said before, spying on a player would allow me to learn ANY action/s that are performed on that player, by another player.

Ask DNinja if it is possible that you were roleblocked.

If I were rb'd, I would get nothing as a response. What I got though, is confirmation that my action went through as expected, along with the results that action produced, that I was not targeted for action. I've already confirmed everything that needs to be confirmed. Bottom line is, neither of the scenarios you raise are possible.