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WoW: Mists of Pandaria

Conspiracy_Theory
Posts: 4
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11/14/2011 4:07:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Will this make or break Blizzard? People have been talking about how Blizzard has been and will be losing millions of subscribers. Personally I think this is one of Blizzard's best ideas in terms of expansions.
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Conspiracy_Theory
Posts: 4
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11/14/2011 4:10:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
My ranking of expansions that have come out (Vanilla included):

1. Burning Crusade
2. Vanilla (before the 1st expansion pack came out)
3. Wrath of the Lich King
4. Cataclysm

I'm basing this off of 2 primary topics: Lore and Content
"I can hear you, the rest of the world hears you. And the people who knocked these buildings down will hear all of us soon."
-George W. Bush
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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11/14/2011 4:35:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Most complaints of the new expansion are dumb. People focus too much on the new Pandaren race, as if they will be forced to play it. It's just an addition. They seemed to forgot that there are already gnomes and goblins, and that the Pandaren was a very popular unit in the WarCraft III expansions.

New lands, race, class, and many other features, it is the same as with other expansions. People have few rational complaints.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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11/14/2011 5:12:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Pandaren makes perfect sense, but seeing Monks running around as potential healers is likely to be weird. Chi just seems like it's coming out of nowhere lorewise. Shoulda done two classes, monk as tank/dps, alchemist as heals/dps, and kept monks fairly physical.

Then again, I haven't really played lately so meh.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ragnar_Rahl
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11/14/2011 5:13:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Pandaren alchemists, of course, would be brewmasters :P
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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11/14/2011 5:20:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/14/2011 5:12:53 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Pandaren makes perfect sense, but seeing Monks running around as potential healers is likely to be weird. Chi just seems like it's coming out of nowhere lorewise. Shoulda done two classes, monk as tank/dps, alchemist as heals/dps, and kept monks fairly physical.
Then again, I haven't really played lately so meh.
No. Two new classes in one expansion would be a death blow to the class balance system, especially in PvP. Do you do PvP? It tends to be ridiculously imbalanced.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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11/14/2011 8:32:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/14/2011 5:20:18 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 11/14/2011 5:12:53 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Pandaren makes perfect sense, but seeing Monks running around as potential healers is likely to be weird. Chi just seems like it's coming out of nowhere lorewise. Shoulda done two classes, monk as tank/dps, alchemist as heals/dps, and kept monks fairly physical.
Then again, I haven't really played lately so meh.
No. Two new classes in one expansion would be a death blow to the class balance system, especially in PvP. Do you do PvP? It tends to be ridiculously imbalanced.

Class balance has never lived in PvP, hence it can't be killed. It strikes me as unlikely that it would be anyharder to balance two new additions than one, especially considering they'll be restructuring how the other classes work again anyway, they always do. And also especially considering that they'd be balancing two classes with two roles each rather than one with three, which will have more of those hard-to-measure utility powers, given that you'll still have some powers from the off-role useful for pvp.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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11/14/2011 8:32:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Remember though, my objection was lore, and stands even if my solution is bad for balance. :)
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Spritle
Posts: 556
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11/14/2011 9:13:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I honestly don't mind the new expansion. Of course Pandaren aren't one of the races I would have chose personally but like I saw in the recent posts, we don't HAVE to play them. People whine so much about new things. I just really hope they make things harder. I'm tired of it being easy.
JustCallMeTarzan
Posts: 1,922
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11/14/2011 9:19:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
This expansion has been colloquially called "Pandas and Pokemon" and will probably kill off WoW as a "serious" MMORPG.

Blizz probably won't lose its subscriber base, but they have two very hard things to overcome...

First, PvP is just a disaster in Cata. They will need to fix that for MoP. Most of my experience is healing PvP 2's as a holy pally or disc priest. I usually pair the pally with a warrior and the priest with a lock. Some combinations just last FOREVER. Pally/Warr vs Pally/Warr as a heal/dps combo will never end if gear is relatively equal. Unbalanced talents like Mana Burn are also a very aggravating problem.

I also heal 3's on a rogue/mage/priest team. While that seems to do pretty well, we find ourselves steamrolling some combos - usually where another priest is healing - because there are just so many interrupts available (we're all blood elves).

Second, talent trees will become even MORE cookie-cutter with the new expansion. Blizz has been battling this for a long time. They need to go back to the Wrath-style talent trees, not remove more talents and make a 6-point tree. There were some fairly striking differences in talent trees in wrath depending on gear level. In Cata, almost everyone of a class has the same tree except for maybe one or two points.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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11/14/2011 9:44:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
There were some fairly striking differences in talent trees in wrath depending on gear level. In Cata, almost everyone of a class has the same tree except for maybe one or two points.

That doesn't sound like Wrath was "less cookie cutter" so much as " "You have to do more math to get the cookie cutter since you have to respec when you reach hitcap/haste cap/ x spellpower/whatever." To be "less cookie cutter" is to have a choice between various interesting situational/utility talents after the core talents that let you optimize your role are taken care of (Arcane Mages at least seemed to work this way when I checked in Cata, albeit not checking very long), not to have optimal dps specs be different at different gear levels.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
JustCallMeTarzan
Posts: 1,922
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11/14/2011 10:51:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/14/2011 9:44:26 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
There were some fairly striking differences in talent trees in wrath depending on gear level. In Cata, almost everyone of a class has the same tree except for maybe one or two points.

That doesn't sound like Wrath was "less cookie cutter" so much as " "You have to do more math to get the cookie cutter since you have to respec when you reach hitcap/haste cap/ x spellpower/whatever." To be "less cookie cutter" is to have a choice between various interesting situational/utility talents after the core talents that let you optimize your role are taken care of (Arcane Mages at least seemed to work this way when I checked in Cata, albeit not checking very long), not to have optimal dps specs be different at different gear levels.

Well this will be slightly different for some classes. Ranged usually have varying roles, as do plate dps - they have to switch to adds or possibly kite/tank them for periods of the fight.

But rogues for example usually have just one role - go run to that creature, get behind it, rape it, and keep going as hard and fast as you can until it's dead.

Wrath was much less cookie cutter in the fact that you could take talents from any tree at any time - you weren't required to put 31 talents in a tree in order to get talents from other trees.

IMO, the only thing possibly saving MoP talents is that you can swap them out like glyphs. But then what is the glyph system for? I think for a truly non-cookie cutter environment is differing talents that offer equal benefit. Otherwise, there will *always* be someone who has done the math and found the theoretical top dps build.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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11/15/2011 1:07:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/14/2011 8:32:08 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 11/14/2011 5:20:18 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 11/14/2011 5:12:53 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Pandaren makes perfect sense, but seeing Monks running around as potential healers is likely to be weird. Chi just seems like it's coming out of nowhere lorewise. Shoulda done two classes, monk as tank/dps, alchemist as heals/dps, and kept monks fairly physical.
Then again, I haven't really played lately so meh.
No. Two new classes in one expansion would be a death blow to the class balance system, especially in PvP. Do you do PvP? It tends to be ridiculously imbalanced.

Class balance has never lived in PvP, hence it can't be killed. It strikes me as unlikely that it would be anyharder to balance two new additions than one, especially considering they'll be restructuring how the other classes work again anyway, they always do. And also especially considering that they'd be balancing two classes with two roles each rather than one with three, which will have more of those hard-to-measure utility powers, given that you'll still have some powers from the off-role useful for pvp.
Class balance is good in the 3v3 bracket, though far from perfect. Death Knights, for example, are overpowered in any bracket. But, PvP overall would benefit from not introducing new classes, but improving the existing ones. With one new class, balancing will be a tough job - especially with the new talent system - though I think Blizzard can do a good job.

The problem with your suggestion is that regardless of the role, a class needs heavy design thought before being fair to others. Introducing new classes, even if they are only dps, can mess things up.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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11/15/2011 1:11:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/14/2011 9:19:06 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
First, PvP is just a disaster in Cata.
How so? Granted I never did much arena before a few months ago, but I think PvP in its main bracket (3v3) is fairly functional. Not a disaster.

They will need to fix that for MoP. Most of my experience is healing PvP 2's as a holy pally or disc priest. I usually pair the pally with a warrior and the priest with a lock. Some combinations just last FOREVER. Pally/Warr vs Pally/Warr as a heal/dps combo will never end if gear is relatively equal. Unbalanced talents like Mana Burn are also a very aggravating problem.
You must not judge PvP by looking at 2v2, ever. Of course it is imbalanced. When two Frost Mages can beat most comps if they play well, you know there's a problem.

I also heal 3's on a rogue/mage/priest team. While that seems to do pretty well, we find ourselves steamrolling some combos - usually where another priest is healing - because there are just so many interrupts available (we're all blood elves).

Second, talent trees will become even MORE cookie-cutter with the new expansion. Blizz has been battling this for a long time. They need to go back to the Wrath-style talent trees, not remove more talents and make a 6-point tree. There were some fairly striking differences in talent trees in wrath depending on gear level. In Cata, almost everyone of a class has the same tree except for maybe one or two points.
It will make PvP less predictable (and again more skillful than PvE for sure), but we will see how it turns out.

What ruins PvP are the PvE players complaining about their damage/healing in raids. Obviously, getting into a raid and doing a little less damage than a few other classes is such a big deal. I think a PvP and PvE talent system should be made separately.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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11/15/2011 1:16:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/14/2011 10:51:02 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
At 11/14/2011 9:44:26 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
There were some fairly striking differences in talent trees in wrath depending on gear level. In Cata, almost everyone of a class has the same tree except for maybe one or two points.

That doesn't sound like Wrath was "less cookie cutter" so much as " "You have to do more math to get the cookie cutter since you have to respec when you reach hitcap/haste cap/ x spellpower/whatever." To be "less cookie cutter" is to have a choice between various interesting situational/utility talents after the core talents that let you optimize your role are taken care of (Arcane Mages at least seemed to work this way when I checked in Cata, albeit not checking very long), not to have optimal dps specs be different at different gear levels.

Well this will be slightly different for some classes. Ranged usually have varying roles, as do plate dps - they have to switch to adds or possibly kite/tank them for periods of the fight.

But rogues for example usually have just one role - go run to that creature, get behind it, rape it, and keep going as hard and fast as you can until it's dead.

Wrath was much less cookie cutter in the fact that you could take talents from any tree at any time - you weren't required to put 31 talents in a tree in order to get talents from other trees.

IMO, the only thing possibly saving MoP talents is that you can swap them out like glyphs. But then what is the glyph system for? I think for a truly non-cookie cutter environment is differing talents that offer equal benefit. Otherwise, there will *always* be someone who has done the math and found the theoretical top dps build.
In Wrath, most people chose mainstream talents regardless of the fact that you could choose any messy talents you wanted to. I think that's a complete non-issue. I've never seen anyone do any good either in duel, arena, BG, raid, whatever choosing same amounts of talents from all three specs within their classes. That's nonsensical and useless.

In MoP, players will get basic talents, and every 15th level (total six times) pick one new talent, and be able to switch it as they wish. This is more creative and far more useful.