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Discussion about the mafia mod list

medic0506
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11/20/2011 12:27:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
There has been some discussion lately about the mod list and some things that are unfair about it. I'd like to put this to the mafia community for discussion.

Is the list the most fair and orderly way to keep things running smoothly without conflict?? Is there a better way of doing it??

Personally, I think the list is the most fair and orderly system. It was in place before I even bagan playing, and seems to have served the community well. It was a good idea, in my opinion. There are some things that I would like to see happen, that I think would help the list run a little quicker.

1. Remove names from the list when the potential mod hasn't logged on to DDO for a month or more.

2. Ask that potential mods be players. There is justified concern about the fact that people who are contributing to the mafia community by being active players are having to wait in line behind some who don't even play. There are a few games that could be removed from the lists if this happens. That's not to say that these people can't mod if they start playing in a couple games each month.
Note: Feverish and Korashk are very experienced players and mods, and know how to design good games, and they do play occassionally. There should be no qualms about Ore_Ele, he contributes to DDO in many, many ways. There are many things that he does for the members of this site and some of those things aren't even known because it's behind the scenes stuff. For my money, he can mod anytime he wants.

3. Only put yourself down on one list, one time. As soon as you've run a game, you can sign up again. Several people have their name on both lists.

These changes can make a difference in the list. I'll post the current list as is, and an approximation of what the list would look like if these changes are made.

Before:

LARGE GAMES (over 14 players)

- feverish (Old Testament)
- Freedomsquared (NFL-based Mafia)
- Danielle
- Blackhawk1331 (Lord of the Rings)
- tvellalott (TBD)
- Nerdy
- M.Torres (Curse of King's Bluff) - READY TO GO AT ANY TIME, SIGNUPS MAY BE SOON
- DetectableNinja (Batman: Arkham City)
- Korashk (Heisei Era Kamen Rider)
- Crede (Avatar: The Last Airbender)
- Medic0506 (Gangster Chronicles)
- Headphonegut (TBD)

SMALL GAMES (14 or less players)

- Danielle
- nerdykiller (Starcraft)
- tvellalott (Heroes Versus Villains: Movie Edition)
- socialpinko
- M.Torres (Legend of Zelda OR Heroes of Shonen Jump)
- Deadleaves93
- Marauder (Christianity; 'a crack in time')
- Korashk (TBD)
- innomen (former DDO'ers)
- DetectableNinja (TBD)
- Blackvoid (Death Note)
- F-16_Fighting_Falcon (Underworld)
- Ore_Ele (Red Dwarf)
- Lickdafoot (Final Fantasy 7)
- Marcuscato (DDO Mafia Players)

After:

LARGE GAMES (over 14 players)

Socialpinko- Anarchism Sign-ups

- feverish (Old Testament)
- Danielle
- M.Torres (Curse of King's Bluff) - READY TO GO AT ANY TIME, SIGNUPS MAY BE SOON
- DetectableNinja (Harry Potter)
- Korashk (Heisei Era Kamen Rider)
- Crede (Avatar: The Last Airbender)
- Headphonegut (TBD)

SMALL GAMES (14 or less players)

Blackhawk- Star Trek NP 3

- tvellalott (Heroes Versus Villains: Movie Edition)
- Marauder (Christianity; 'a crack in time')
- innomen (former DDO'ers)
- Blackvoid (Death Note)
- F-16_Fighting_Falcon (Underworld)
- Ore_Ele (Red Dwarf)
- Lickdafoot ( Final Fantasy 7)
- Marcuscato ( DDO Mafia Players)
- Medic (Gangster Chronicles)

Again, this is an approximation depending on whether people with names on both lists wanted to run small or large games.

I've contacted a few people who's names were removed from the example, to see if they intend to run their games and start playing. If they were to start playing again then obviously their name wouldn't be removed.

Before anyone starts yelling, remember these are just suggestions in order to provoke discussion on the issue. Please weigh in and give your thoughts on the matter.
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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11/20/2011 12:40:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Remove #3
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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11/20/2011 12:41:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Another proposal would be to eliminate the big games list once everyone on it has gone (but no new additions).

We don't have enough players for big games anyway, since they always require multiple replacements. We could have one small games list with a max of 16 players per game.

If there was only one list, it would go way faster, since 2 people would go at a time, instead of 1.

Or we could still do one list and say "whatever, you can make your game as big as possible", but just warn mods that if they make it too big, they won't fill sign-ups and will have lots of replacements.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
Lickdafoot
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11/20/2011 1:00:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
yeah, i agree with blue's idea: one list, people can make the games as big as they want. wait til people get to spot 3 or 4 and if they haven't logged on in over a month, remove them. i have no problem with people modding that haven't been actively playing, as long as they have played enough to know how everything works.

i'd say let the lists run out how they are currently, with no more people adding their names to one of the lists, so that the 2 lists can turn into one.
WAKE UP AND READ THIS: http://www.debate.org...
bluesteel
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11/20/2011 1:11:57 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Another proposal would make games move quicker. There is huge variation. Some games (like most of mine) take as little as two weeks. Some take more than a month.

One proposal would be to REQUIRE time limits in all games. This forces mods to replace inactives as quickly as possible (or their game will sink due to inactivity).

The enforcement could be that the next person on the mod list (who has the most incentive) would co-mod and enforce the time limits strictly.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
medic0506
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11/20/2011 1:16:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/20/2011 12:41:03 PM, bluesteel wrote:
Another proposal would be to eliminate the big games list once everyone on it has gone (but no new additions).

We don't have enough players for big games anyway, since they always require multiple replacements. We could have one small games list with a max of 16 players per game.

If there was only one list, it would go way faster, since 2 people would go at a time, instead of 1.

Or we could still do one list and say "whatever, you can make your game as big as possible", but just warn mods that if they make it too big, they won't fill sign-ups and will have lots of replacements.

I'm a fan of the one-list idea too, but I think we should stipulate that your name can't be on the list more than one time. IOW, you can't sign up again until you've run your game. That's a plan that I could get behind.
bluesteel
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11/20/2011 1:20:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I also think we need a sticky for "advice to mods." I have some insights:

1) Don't give town unnecessary ways to confirm themselves, like using unique role PM titles or flavored "I win with _______" statements. Don't tell vanillas they were roleblocked.

2) Ask players to submit night actions ahead of time (during the DP).

3) Send delinquent players a personal PM reminding them to submit their night actions. Tell them almost everyone else has already submitted. This makes a huge difference, although it can be annoying. Keep a spreadsheet or docx of all night actions so you know which are missing.

4) Be willing to replace inactives asap. They can always come back in the game once their former role has died, if they want to come back. Especially replace people who are holding up the game (have not submitted a critical night action or are currently being pressured for a claim).

etc
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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11/20/2011 1:42:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/20/2011 1:20:10 PM, bluesteel wrote:
I also think we need a sticky for "advice to mods." I have some insights:

1) Don't give town unnecessary ways to confirm themselves, like using unique role PM titles or flavored "I win with _______" statements. Don't tell vanillas they were roleblocked.

The mod should utilize whatever rules or tools they find necessary or helpful to their particular game. Sometimes I tell people when they have been RB and sometimes not, depending on other factors such as what roles are in the game, how the game is balanced, etc. For instance, I might not say yes or no, as I might want to leave people guessing as to whether or not a RB exists in the game to begin with. Like I said, it all depends.

2) Ask players to submit night actions ahead of time (during the DP).

This is possible but can be problematic. Presumably people will change their minds on who they'd like to target throughout the day phase. A mod could certainly encourage it though.

3) Send delinquent players a personal PM reminding them to submit their night actions. Tell them almost everyone else has already submitted. This makes a huge difference, although it can be annoying. Keep a spreadsheet or docx of all night actions so you know which are missing.

I've always found that reminding people about night actions has helped. It doesn't if they're not signing online though.

4) Be willing to replace inactives asap. They can always come back in the game once their former role has died, if they want to come back. Especially replace people who are holding up the game (have not submitted a critical night action or are currently being pressured for a claim).

I've done this only if they've been warned first or if I've told them they need to sign in often to ensure they don't lose their spot. This can be helpful but problematic too, for instance if one person who inhabits a role plays it a lot differently than the other player who replaces them (who may have been harder or easier to read). It kinda effects game dynamics a bit as people have to adjust to the new playing style of the replacement. I do think it's helpful insofar as people making assumptions about one's affiliation based on who has and hasn't been replaced by activity.
President of DDO
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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11/20/2011 1:42:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
In regard to the OP's suggestions, almost every single one of them have already been used based on the "rules" or popular support (such as skipping inactive members). In terms of asking those who host to also play, I've decided to just refrain from playing in games whose mods don't also play. I also avoid games from n00b mods -- it's my personal preference and objection which I exercise through my own participation. I boycott things I don't like by not participating. Otherwise, people can do what they'd like.

I do think the list is the most fair way of going about hosting.

In terms of the big vs. small games, the reason two separate lists even exists is because people were tired of the slow pace of mafia games. On a site like Epic Mafia, each game lasts only a matter of minutes let alone several weeks like they can here. Some people really like mafia and happen to be very active on DDO. As such, the entire purpose of small games was to cater specifically to VERY ACTIVE players. There were supposed to be strict time limits too, such as 48 hour max day phases and 24 hour max night phases. While these can indeed be difficult to adhere to, the solution for people who like mafia (but cannot spend a ton of time on DDO) was to play in the bigger games which would not go as fast.

Also, limiting the game to 14 players was another way to facilitate their resolution. You can actually play with a lot less players, but 14 was deemed a good amount to still have a fun game for those who like to utilize themes. I think if people actually utilized the small game list appropriately, it would be really useful. As for the larger games, they don't have to be larger in terms of players; again the limit for small games was just to ensure that they'd go by a lot faster - which also helped move the mod list along since there is a great interest in hosting games. The "big games" could have 14 players or less -- again the whole point was to just set the pace.

If there is a ton of interest in mafia, perhaps we could increase the amount of games that go on at once. However, I'd suggest that's based on the # of people who want to play. Whenever people have participated in multiple games at once in the past, they've almost ALWAYS all suffered because people couldn't keep track of their roles, couldn't keep track of the game play in each game, were confusing games, participation in all suffered, etc. So, if you have 10 players in one game and 12 different players in another, I think that can be okay.
President of DDO
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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11/20/2011 1:47:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I also don't understand "beginner games." I thought the original intention was to teach n00bs how to play, which would require a few veteran players but primarily new players. The basic rules are pretty straight forward, so these games were never intended to require any complex roles or strategy of any kind. A quick look at the latest beginner game shows 13 players, though at least half of them are probably not brand new. Eh, I don't really care about or pay attention to how these games work though. That was just an observation.
President of DDO
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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11/20/2011 1:49:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/20/2011 1:20:10 PM, bluesteel wrote:
I also think we need a sticky for "advice to mods." I have some insights:

1) Don't give town unnecessary ways to confirm themselves, like using unique role PM titles or flavored "I win with _______" statements. Don't tell vanillas they were roleblocked.

2) Ask players to submit night actions ahead of time (during the DP).

3) Send delinquent players a personal PM reminding them to submit their night actions. Tell them almost everyone else has already submitted. This makes a huge difference, although it can be annoying. Keep a spreadsheet or docx of all night actions so you know which are missing.

4) Be willing to replace inactives asap. They can always come back in the game once their former role has died, if they want to come back. Especially replace people who are holding up the game (have not submitted a critical night action or are currently being pressured for a claim).

etc

Ask and ye shall recieve. It's done.
badger
Posts: 11,793
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11/20/2011 2:07:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
abolish the list. let people just throw up games whenever they want. let the mob decide what's played and not played. simple.
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bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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11/20/2011 2:28:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
@danielle

yeah, a lot of it is up to the mod. Each thing I suggest may have downsides, such as constant replacements altering play dynamics. They are all just suggestions. Although when an inactive is being pressured, it's definitely a greater incentive to replace them, since the whole game suddenly hinges on them (which can mean up to 2 days just waiting if that person doesn't sign on).

The one suggestion that is super-helpful though is submitting ahead of time. I let people change their mind. I'll take whatever the last thing they said was. But it's convenient because as I go through the role PM's once NP starts, most people have their actions in. I even let people change during the NP, as long as the change is before I post the next DP.

It's even more useful b/c players who know they are not online often can get actions submitted early, preventing their replacement. It also adds a seed of doubt whether if someone "didn't log on", if that means they have no active power or just submitted early.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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11/20/2011 5:01:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I was actually going to suggest the one list idea.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
Using mafia tactics in real-life: http://www.debate.org...
6 years of DDO: http://www.debate.org...
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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11/20/2011 8:17:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/20/2011 2:07:54 PM, badger wrote:
abolish the list. let people just throw up games whenever they want. let the mob decide what's played and not played. simple.

I do find it somewhat humorous that most members are anarchists, particularly an-cap, yet most/all seem to favor the list, and follow it like it's holy.

I'm not complaining, it's good, keeps everything organized etc, but members like askbob have made it seem that mafia is the most important thing on this site, and not following mafia rules should get you banned.

Harsh, and not very anarchist ;p
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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11/20/2011 8:32:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/20/2011 8:17:27 PM, lovelife wrote:
At 11/20/2011 2:07:54 PM, badger wrote:
abolish the list. let people just throw up games whenever they want. let the mob decide what's played and not played. simple.

I do find it somewhat humorous that most members are anarchists, particularly an-cap, yet most/all seem to favor the list, and follow it like it's holy.

I'm not complaining, it's good, keeps everything organized etc, but members like askbob have made it seem that mafia is the most important thing on this site, and not following mafia rules should get you banned.

Harsh, and not very anarchist ;p

The awkward moment when someone thinks anarchy equals chaos.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
Using mafia tactics in real-life: http://www.debate.org...
6 years of DDO: http://www.debate.org...
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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11/20/2011 9:07:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/20/2011 8:32:53 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 11/20/2011 8:17:27 PM, lovelife wrote:
At 11/20/2011 2:07:54 PM, badger wrote:
abolish the list. let people just throw up games whenever they want. let the mob decide what's played and not played. simple.

I do find it somewhat humorous that most members are anarchists, particularly an-cap, yet most/all seem to favor the list, and follow it like it's holy.

I'm not complaining, it's good, keeps everything organized etc, but members like askbob have made it seem that mafia is the most important thing on this site, and not following mafia rules should get you banned.

Harsh, and not very anarchist ;p

The awkward moment when someone thinks anarchy equals chaos.

Anarchy doesn't mean rules and government, that's for sure.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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11/20/2011 9:11:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/20/2011 9:07:18 PM, lovelife wrote:
At 11/20/2011 8:32:53 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 11/20/2011 8:17:27 PM, lovelife wrote:
At 11/20/2011 2:07:54 PM, badger wrote:
abolish the list. let people just throw up games whenever they want. let the mob decide what's played and not played. simple.

I do find it somewhat humorous that most members are anarchists, particularly an-cap, yet most/all seem to favor the list, and follow it like it's holy.

I'm not complaining, it's good, keeps everything organized etc, but members like askbob have made it seem that mafia is the most important thing on this site, and not following mafia rules should get you banned.

Harsh, and not very anarchist ;p

The awkward moment when someone thinks anarchy equals chaos.

Anarchy doesn't mean rules and government, that's for sure.

It means self-governance and can certainly include rules.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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11/20/2011 9:27:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/20/2011 1:47:46 PM, Danielle wrote:
I also don't understand "beginner games." I thought the original intention was to teach n00bs how to play, which would require a few veteran players but primarily new players. The basic rules are pretty straight forward, so these games were never intended to require any complex roles or strategy of any kind. A quick look at the latest beginner game shows 13 players, though at least half of them are probably not brand new. Eh, I don't really care about or pay attention to how these games work though. That was just an observation.

Although that's what "beginner games" implies, they actually serve 3 purposes. First, they are for new players to break them in slowly. There aren't enough new players to run a decent sized game using just noobs, so we let others in. Secondly, they give some extra experience to anyone who feels they need it, though they would prolly be boring to the more experienced players. Thirdly, since newer players tend to have a higher activity level, it gives them an extra outlet for that so they don't get bored. I'd be bored to tears if my activity level were restricted to playing in two games at a time. Beginning with this group of noobs, we're adding a 4th purpose. First time mods will be designing and modding the x.3 games, with a co-mod, so by the time they run the games they have on the list, they have some experience modding.
marcuscato
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11/21/2011 8:23:47 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/20/2011 1:16:12 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 11/20/2011 12:41:03 PM, bluesteel wrote:
Another proposal would be to eliminate the big games list once everyone on it has gone (but no new additions).

We don't have enough players for big games anyway, since they always require multiple replacements. We could have one small games list with a max of 16 players per game.

If there was only one list, it would go way faster, since 2 people would go at a time, instead of 1.

Or we could still do one list and say "whatever, you can make your game as big as possible", but just warn mods that if they make it too big, they won't fill sign-ups and will have lots of replacements.

but I think we should stipulate that your name can't be on the list more than one time. IOW, you can't sign up again until you've run your game. That's a plan that I could get behind.
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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11/21/2011 12:40:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/20/2011 9:11:39 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 11/20/2011 9:07:18 PM, lovelife wrote:
At 11/20/2011 8:32:53 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 11/20/2011 8:17:27 PM, lovelife wrote:
At 11/20/2011 2:07:54 PM, badger wrote:
abolish the list. let people just throw up games whenever they want. let the mob decide what's played and not played. simple.

I do find it somewhat humorous that most members are anarchists, particularly an-cap, yet most/all seem to favor the list, and follow it like it's holy.

I'm not complaining, it's good, keeps everything organized etc, but members like askbob have made it seem that mafia is the most important thing on this site, and not following mafia rules should get you banned.

Harsh, and not very anarchist ;p

The awkward moment when someone thinks anarchy equals chaos.

Anarchy doesn't mean rules and government, that's for sure.

It means self-governance and can certainly include rules.

Not if the rules include ruling over any other person.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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11/21/2011 2:45:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Less than twenty posts before a discussion about the mafia mod list led to a discussion on the equivocation of anarchism with chaos. Must be a new record.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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11/21/2011 5:09:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/21/2011 2:45:25 PM, socialpinko wrote:
Less than twenty posts before a discussion about the mafia mod list led to a discussion on the equivocation of anarchism with chaos. Must be a new record.

Lol.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
Using mafia tactics in real-life: http://www.debate.org...
6 years of DDO: http://www.debate.org...
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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11/22/2011 12:26:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Thanks for the insightful contribution, lovelife.

Not.

An anarchist would say you should probably follow the list because it's most convenient (fair, orderly, specific, etc.) -- but would oppose Juggle saying we HAD to follow the list if we wanted to remain on DDO, and if they demanded to set the terms for the list, etc.

Anyway, looks like it's my turn to host. I'll limit it to 14 players since nobody's commented on the consolidation or expansion possibilities.
President of DDO
badger
Posts: 11,793
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11/22/2011 7:12:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
whatever happened to the anarchy where everyone ran around killing and raping each other not giving a fvck about order or fairness?
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medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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11/22/2011 7:30:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/22/2011 7:12:32 PM, badger wrote:
whatever happened to the anarchy where everyone ran around killing and raping each other not giving a fvck about order or fairness?

It's still means the same, it just had to be repackaged because it doesn't sell as well when it's described the way you just described it.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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11/23/2011 8:27:09 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
There seems to be support for the one-list idea, after the current large list has run it's course. If no one is opposed I'd like to put the idea to an actual vote by the mafia community. I'll start a vote thread today and we'll run it through the weekend so that everyone can have time to vote. Monday morning we'll count up the votes.
Any opposition to this vote??
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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11/23/2011 8:47:40 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/23/2011 8:27:09 AM, medic0506 wrote:
There seems to be support for the one-list idea, after the current large list has run it's course. If no one is opposed I'd like to put the idea to an actual vote by the mafia community. I'll start a vote thread today and we'll run it through the weekend so that everyone can have time to vote. Monday morning we'll count up the votes.
Any opposition to this vote??

??

We're voting on whether or not to have a vote? :P

If people are opposed to the idea, then they can vote against it. But I don't want to be hasty. Let's have a premeeting before we have our meeting. j/k
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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11/23/2011 9:01:07 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/23/2011 8:47:40 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 11/23/2011 8:27:09 AM, medic0506 wrote:
There seems to be support for the one-list idea, after the current large list has run it's course. If no one is opposed I'd like to put the idea to an actual vote by the mafia community. I'll start a vote thread today and we'll run it through the weekend so that everyone can have time to vote. Monday morning we'll count up the votes.
Any opposition to this vote??

??

We're voting on whether or not to have a vote? :P

If people are opposed to the idea, then they can vote against it. But I don't want to be hasty. Let's have a premeeting before we have our meeting. j/k

haha...I'm just giving anyone opposed an opportunity to weigh in if they don't think the idea has enough support to bring it up for a vote.