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Grr @ Beginner Games

Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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12/3/2011 12:26:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
From my Sign-Up thread...

I was told that there was no Beginner game currently being run so that mine should start. That is not the case; a new Beginner game just started. As of now, with my game there will be FOUR games going on at once. I think that is ridiculously confusing. Some people might be playing in all 4. Based on past experience, playing in multiple games has been problematic and impacted all games poorly because people got confused, posted in the wrong thread, etc.

I don't see why these people need Beginner games if they already know how to play mafia. A quick look at who is currently playing in the Beginner game shows only ONE player who has not played on DDO before, meaning there is only 1 beginner. This game is unnecessary and is just a cheap way to skip the list. Why do I seem like such a stickler for the list in this regard? Because now my game and others might be negatively impacted by a useless game. The vast majority of people in the new Beginner game are also playing in my game. If you're a beginner and you need someone to hold your hand while playing mafia, then stick to those games and avoid the non-beginner games. If you know how to play, then don't join Beginner Mafia.

They were never supposed to be intended to run like real games. I think askbob even ran some with just like 7 players. They are only meant to be easy introductions. Remember, once upon a time there were no beginner games, and we all turned out alright :) The people who continue to play in Beginner games are far from new players. Andromeda has been playing mafia for like 4 months...
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Cobo
Posts: 556
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12/3/2011 12:28:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/3/2011 12:27:10 PM, Danielle wrote:
I just felt like venting about this minor annoyance ;)

Why not just make a tutorial and sticky it?
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BlackVoid
Posts: 9,170
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12/3/2011 12:29:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I think its more strange that the Anonymous game magically skipped the mod list and went straight to starting. Thats also part of the problem.
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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12/3/2011 12:31:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I totally agree with everything here. When I played my first Beginner game modded by askbob it was just that: for beginners. Sure there were a few experienced players to help give us newbs a feel but I look at the beginner games now and all the newish players(non-newbs since they've played like ten games) are playing. What the hell?
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Lickdafoot
Posts: 5,599
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12/3/2011 12:43:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Sorry Danielle, I was told many of the people were getting antsy so I should go ahead and post it up. I understand why you would be frustrated. I'm not sure how the other players feel but i wouldn't mind starting your game as well.

There are 3 newbs in the game and 2 others that started at 3.1.
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bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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12/3/2011 12:46:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I see maybe 5 players who are truly beginners, but danielle's point is valid. I also kind of get the perception that the beginner's games are becoming less about beginners and more their own set of games for moderate level experienced people.

askbob's goal in running the games was always to initiate/transition beginners into the actual games. He'd reserve all the spots for beginners and only take one or two advanced players (usually as replacements). I remember being turned down for a number of his games.

I'm glad that new mods (lickdafoot) get to mod the third game now. That's cool.

I think more effort needs to be made though to reserve all the spots for beginners. askbob never started the next "cycle" of beginner games until he actually had 7 or more true n00bs signed up. More effort needs to be made to actually reach out to new players. A good incentive for this would be to cap the number of non-beginners at two.

@BV

I tried to start the concept game when there was a lull (only danielle's small game running), but it took awhile to get off the ground. I don't care, I'll stop running the Anon game if you guys want. It's kind of a huge pain (hard to get replacements when it's anonymous), and it's not really for my benefit... It's far more fun for you guys to play in it than for me to mod it. I thought you guys wanted me to start it. I got people begging for it to start in the sign-up, so I expedited it. I'll defer to the judgment of the community.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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12/3/2011 12:47:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
My first game was Dexter and... that turned out fine. I've done copious amount of research on my own, and that's part of it. I think beginner games should be done upon request, if there are enough beginners to warrant one and they should be kept small. Like 4 noobs and 3 vets. Or 5 and 4.
bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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12/3/2011 12:52:57 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
lol, it is kind of funny.

When I played my first themed game of askbob's, I was playing with all n00bs and Ore_Ele with me in the mafia. It was a much easier learning experience since it was easier to fake claim with only other n00bs. It felt like a safe environment.

But now, what's the difference between a n00b signing up for a beginner game and an actual game? In the beginner, he'll be with 3 or 4 other n00bs and 10 experienced players,instead of all experienced players . . . It's kind of like "big difference." One of the reasons it was important for me to start with other n00bs is because the advanced games can get pretty intimidating, especially if you have no idea what's going on with roles. Throwing a n00b in with 10 instead of 13 experienced players doesn't seem all that different.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
bluesteel
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12/3/2011 12:53:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/3/2011 12:47:29 PM, drafterman wrote:
My first game was Dexter and... that turned out fine. I've done copious amount of research on my own, and that's part of it. I think beginner games should be done upon request, if there are enough beginners to warrant one and they should be kept small. Like 4 noobs and 3 vets. Or 5 and 4.

Yeah, you're kind of a baller. You learned to play really fast.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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12/3/2011 12:55:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Whatever, anyway let me know what's up with Anon mafia. It's far easier for me to not run it than to run it.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
headphonegut
Posts: 4,122
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12/3/2011 12:56:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I don't think there should be an issue unless there are people who signed up for your game as well replace them and then start it.
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Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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12/3/2011 1:16:40 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Nooo I like the Anon game... It's funny because everyone thinks I'm IronWood and I'm not ;) At least the Anon game does have a concept. I never played in a Beginner game. I remember the first mafia game ever on DDO, run by Logical-Master. I remember I was mafia with JBlake and we won. I had never heard of mafia before; we were all n00bs and just looked stuff up online and learned as we went along. I thought it was an easy concept. I do think experience is the greatest teacher, because you learn different styles, strategies, and most importantly are exposed to new roles so you can have an idea what to expect in the future.

@ Lickdafoot, I'm not mad that you started the beginner game or anything like that. It's not only about me as a mod but me as a player too -- I don't want some of the other games getting messed up. The Anon game is tricky enough considering the whole double account possibility thing. I remember about 2 months ago I actually had the same role in 2 games, and was a mafioso in a third game. 3/5 of the same people who were mafia with me in one game were masons in another (or something weird like that -- anyone remember?) Anyway, it was tricky. I just don't see why the Beginner game is necessary atm, but that's me. I agree with the simplicity of the game (a lot of basic roles and whatnot), but like drafterman said, you probably learn more just by playing and looking up stuff. Does that Mafia tutorial askbob did still exist?
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bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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12/3/2011 1:35:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
@danielle

lol, yeah, that reminds me: I was playing as mafia with blackvoid in one game (Star Trek), and then was put with him as mafia in another game as well (beginner 2.4 with F-16 mod-ing). I was ABOUT to type "lol, mafia with me again blackvoid" but then I thought at the last minute: WAIT, F-16 is town in our other game. Then I thought, "gee, I hope blackvoid doesn't make the same mistake I did. How can I tell him that... Can I say something in the Star Trek PM? Wait, blackhawk is town in the beginner 2.4 game, so I can't do that. ummmm." Yeah, multiple games can get really confusing.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
Alex
Posts: 2,058
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12/3/2011 2:05:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/3/2011 1:40:21 PM, The_Lwerd wrote:
I hear ya sister.

Who the hell is this lol
Why kill people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong?
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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12/3/2011 2:09:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/3/2011 2:05:31 PM, Alex wrote:
At 12/3/2011 1:40:21 PM, The_Lwerd wrote:
I hear ya sister.

Who the hell is this lol

Me :-X
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TheTruthAnalyst
Posts: 312
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12/3/2011 2:36:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I think the beginner games are best for learning the quirks of mafia that exist on DDO... many places have different standards of how the game is played, and not knowing that when you come into a place can make you look scummy.
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Alex
Posts: 2,058
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12/3/2011 2:57:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/3/2011 2:09:19 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 12/3/2011 2:05:31 PM, Alex wrote:
At 12/3/2011 1:40:21 PM, The_Lwerd wrote:
I hear ya sister.

Who the hell is this lol

Me :-X

Definitely thought it was someone trying to be you, lol.
Why kill people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong?
Lickdafoot
Posts: 5,599
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12/3/2011 5:21:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/3/2011 1:16:40 PM, Danielle wrote:
Nooo I like the Anon game... It's funny because everyone thinks I'm IronWood and I'm not ;) At least the Anon game does have a concept. I never played in a Beginner game. I remember the first mafia game ever on DDO, run by Logical-Master. I remember I was mafia with JBlake and we won. I had never heard of mafia before; we were all n00bs and just looked stuff up online and learned as we went along. I thought it was an easy concept. I do think experience is the greatest teacher, because you learn different styles, strategies, and most importantly are exposed to new roles so you can have an idea what to expect in the future.

@ Lickdafoot, I'm not mad that you started the beginner game or anything like that. It's not only about me as a mod but me as a player too -- I don't want some of the other games getting messed up. The Anon game is tricky enough considering the whole double account possibility thing. I remember about 2 months ago I actually had the same role in 2 games, and was a mafioso in a third game. 3/5 of the same people who were mafia with me in one game were masons in another (or something weird like that -- anyone remember?) Anyway, it was tricky. I just don't see why the Beginner game is necessary atm, but that's me. I agree with the simplicity of the game (a lot of basic roles and whatnot), but like drafterman said, you probably learn more just by playing and looking up stuff. Does that Mafia tutorial askbob did still exist?

I agree with you though. I prob should have waited a bit to get my game started. I think beginner games can good when a lot of newbs are interested in playing. Maybe we should think of some way so that they can be more conducive with the rest of the mafia games. Maybe if we set up some restrictions such as having beginner sign ups once every 3 months, or putting them into the mod list.

We could also have a list every couple of months of Newbs who are interested in playing. Once the list fills up, even if the've played a game or two since signing up, with only 2 or spots for more experienced players (say maybe played more than 5/6 games) the game could start.

Idk. But if there is a problem we need to start discussing some practical solutions. Or would you rather see the beginner games dropped completely?
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medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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12/3/2011 6:23:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I don't understand what the problem is with the beginner games. They are there for beginners and to give others more experience, or a higher amount of activity for those that seek it. Sometimes many of the noobs from a group drop out over the course of the series, that can't be helped and doesn't mean that the series should be scrapped.

If someone finds that they are in too many games, that's easily fixed. No one has to sign up for every single game on the site, and if you're not a beginner then the beginner games should be lowest on your priority list. For those who wish to play more than two games at a time, or have something to do after being killed off, the beginner games fills that void and keeps people busy.
PartamRuhem
Posts: 1,559
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12/3/2011 7:07:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/3/2011 6:23:08 PM, medic0506 wrote:
I don't understand what the problem is with the beginner games. They are there for beginners and to give others more experience, or a higher amount of activity for those that seek it. Sometimes many of the noobs from a group drop out over the course of the series, that can't be helped and doesn't mean that the series should be scrapped.

If someone finds that they are in too many games, that's easily fixed. No one has to sign up for every single game on the site, and if you're not a beginner then the beginner games should be lowest on your priority list. For those who wish to play more than two games at a time, or have something to do after being killed off, the beginner games fills that void and keeps people busy.

I agree with this. It's also beneficial to just have a couple beginners in the games, because then they can have the simulation that they are in a real mafia game without a ton of noob mistakes and questions. The newbies will learn from experienced players in a mafia PM or just in general. 4 noobs and 10 /intermediate/experienced players is a good ratio, for we are teaching these noobs and setting precedents, while if it was like 10 noobs and 4 experienced, the games would be chaotic and have less structure, even towards the end of the series.

Having fewer beginners in these games is more beneficial. At the rate that new people sign on, it wold be like months for every series to start, and that's time that can bore people away from trying to learn how to play.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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12/3/2011 7:18:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/3/2011 7:07:11 PM, PartamRuhem wrote:
At 12/3/2011 6:23:08 PM, medic0506 wrote:
I don't understand what the problem is with the beginner games. They are there for beginners and to give others more experience, or a higher amount of activity for those that seek it. Sometimes many of the noobs from a group drop out over the course of the series, that can't be helped and doesn't mean that the series should be scrapped.

If someone finds that they are in too many games, that's easily fixed. No one has to sign up for every single game on the site, and if you're not a beginner then the beginner games should be lowest on your priority list. For those who wish to play more than two games at a time, or have something to do after being killed off, the beginner games fills that void and keeps people busy.

I agree with this. It's also beneficial to just have a couple beginners in the games, because then they can have the simulation that they are in a real mafia game without a ton of noob mistakes and questions. The newbies will learn from experienced players in a mafia PM or just in general. 4 noobs and 10 /intermediate/experienced players is a good ratio, for we are teaching these noobs and setting precedents, while if it was like 10 noobs and 4 experienced, the games would be chaotic and have less structure, even towards the end of the series.

Having fewer beginners in these games is more beneficial. At the rate that new people sign on, it wold be like months for every series to start, and that's time that can bore people away from trying to learn how to play.

I do think that beginner games should be smaller and quicker.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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12/3/2011 9:16:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/3/2011 7:18:21 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 12/3/2011 7:07:11 PM, PartamRuhem wrote:
At 12/3/2011 6:23:08 PM, medic0506 wrote:
I don't understand what the problem is with the beginner games. They are there for beginners and to give others more experience, or a higher amount of activity for those that seek it. Sometimes many of the noobs from a group drop out over the course of the series, that can't be helped and doesn't mean that the series should be scrapped.

If someone finds that they are in too many games, that's easily fixed. No one has to sign up for every single game on the site, and if you're not a beginner then the beginner games should be lowest on your priority list. For those who wish to play more than two games at a time, or have something to do after being killed off, the beginner games fills that void and keeps people busy.

I agree with this. It's also beneficial to just have a couple beginners in the games, because then they can have the simulation that they are in a real mafia game without a ton of noob mistakes and questions. The newbies will learn from experienced players in a mafia PM or just in general. 4 noobs and 10 /intermediate/experienced players is a good ratio, for we are teaching these noobs and setting precedents, while if it was like 10 noobs and 4 experienced, the games would be chaotic and have less structure, even towards the end of the series.

Having fewer beginners in these games is more beneficial. At the rate that new people sign on, it wold be like months for every series to start, and that's time that can bore people away from trying to learn how to play.

I do think that beginner games should be smaller and quicker.

I think 10-14 players is a good size since that's what most regular games are. New players tend to post less and it helps if there are some experienced players to keep activity higher. I think that helps new players in the learning process. The speed of the game is determined by the players themselves and the info they're able to get out for discussion. If people are discussing the game then they're learning and I see no reason to try and speed that process up. We do put a 48 hour limit on day phases, though an extension can be granted so long as people are actively trying to get something done. I'm always aggressive in trying to hurry people to get night actions in to minimize time in between phases.
bluesteel
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12/3/2011 9:56:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'm not saying scrap beginner games, but make more of an effort to attract and find lots of beginner before starting a new cycle. Try to only use non-n00bs as replacements.

Sign-ups for each one should be up for FAR longer. It's just unacceptable to fill sign-ups with all experienced players if that means n00bs are missing their opportunity to sign up. Sign-ups for n00b games often need to be up for weeks so that n00bs get a chance to sign up. Askbob would also PM people he thought would be good additions to mafia.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
Lickdafoot
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12/3/2011 9:59:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/3/2011 9:56:59 PM, bluesteel wrote:
I'm not saying scrap beginner games, but make more of an effort to attract and find lots of beginner before starting a new cycle. Try to only use non-n00bs as replacements.

Sign-ups for each one should be up for FAR longer. It's just unacceptable to fill sign-ups with all experienced players if that means n00bs are missing their opportunity to sign up. Sign-ups for n00b games often need to be up for weeks so that n00bs get a chance to sign up. Askbob would also PM people he thought would be good additions to mafia.

yes but if a sign-up is open for weeks, won't those people who signed up become restless from waiting and have a high chance of forgetting about it & not playing?

I'd guess pming people would be a good idea to get things going.
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bluesteel
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12/3/2011 10:08:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Naw, askbob did it that way and it worked pretty well. You need a lot longer to attract new players than to get already existing ones to sign up.

Askbob would start with groups of 7-14 beginners and ultimately, only 4 would end up becoming constant players.

If you only do 4 each cycle, supposedly you're only starting 1 new consistent player each cycle (on average). Kind of a waste.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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12/3/2011 10:59:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/3/2011 9:56:59 PM, bluesteel wrote:
I'm not saying scrap beginner games, but make more of an effort to attract and find lots of beginner before starting a new cycle. Try to only use non-n00bs as replacements.

Sign-ups for each one should be up for FAR longer. It's just unacceptable to fill sign-ups with all experienced players if that means n00bs are missing their opportunity to sign up. Sign-ups for n00b games often need to be up for weeks so that n00bs get a chance to sign up. Askbob would also PM people he thought would be good additions to mafia.

I do send out pm's trying to recruit new players. If we leave the signups up for too long, those already signed up lose interest. When people sign up for the games, they don't want to wait for weeks to begin.

The other thing that I think is being discounted is the void these games fill for players who want to play alot more. For many of us, if we have only two games going and we're killed off in one it becomes extremely boring. I've recommended adding another game before but it never happened. Something has to be available to keep people's interest. The option to not play every game exists for those who don't have the desire to play alot. But for those that do, no option exists, and beginner games also help fill that need.
Logic_on_rails
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12/4/2011 12:16:02 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
The points raised by Danielle and Bluesteel are quite valid, yet there are a few recent trends that favour arguments put forth by people like Medic.

Recent beginners, whether it be coincidence or due to being more involved in Mafia (be that due to a faster introduction to complex games, more active players or whatever) , have tended to stay around longer. This means that if they have say, 5 beginners, that they are retaining 4 of them currently, which justifies their current ideas.

Furthermore, I wholeheartedly agree that in the past games have been destroyed by players being confused, yet the current beginners do seem to show a great enthusiasm for Mafia, and generally have strong activity. Players from generations past often seemed to not post much. Now, I'm strongly against ridiculous post counts, but higher activity levels lessen the difficulties behind having multiple games run at once.

In essence, if the beginners start becoming less active and aren't retained then we will need to restrict beginner games, yet currently (be it by policy or luck) there is no need for strict regulation.
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Andromeda_Z
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12/4/2011 2:29:32 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/3/2011 10:59:36 PM, medic0506 wrote:
Something has to be available to keep people's interest. The option to not play every game exists for those who don't have the desire to play alot. But for those that do, no option exists, and beginner games also help fill that need.

This is exactly why I still play them. I started playing mafia shortly after I joined ddo, so I'm definitely not a beginner, but I love playing in multiple games at once. If there's only two games going and I'm only alive in one, then that's not much mafia. If there was a rule that beginner games are only for beginners or people without much experience, then I'd be perfectly fine with that. I didn't die or anything when askbob ran the beginner game that came after the series I played in. But as long as I can sign up, I'll probably continue to do so. I know a lot of people can't play in so many games. I don't expect them to. The problem isn't playing in 4 games at once, the problem is when you take on more then you can handle.

Bottom line is, if you can't handle playing so many games at once, then don't do that. If you can, then I don't know how it hurts anything to have the opportunity to play in 3 or 4 games at once. The Beginner Games provide that opportunity while giving new players a chance to learn more about mafia if they want to do so.