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Is the mafia over powered?

Ore_Ele
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12/12/2011 12:06:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
So, I just went back through the last handful of games, actually going back to the last game I modded, and I found that the mafia has won 7 of the last 11 (with 3 wins going to town and 1 to cult). I ignored the 3rd party things like Jester and Survivor and that Anarchist that had to kill that other one. But one must start to wonder if we're seeing a swing to the mafia, since they are currently winning significantly more than the town.

Any thoughts?
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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12/12/2011 12:11:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I think it is difficult to quantify who is overpowered. The town and the mafia trade information for people and as more townies dies, the town gets more information. So, I think roles that can CONFIRM townies are actually more powerful and dangerous to the mafia than powerful, unconfirmable townie roles.

Also, despite never losing as mafia, and never winning as town, I still think it is a lot more challenging to play as mafia as you have something to hide. Giving mafia a couple of safe character and maybe a role would help immensely. So, yeah i think the mafia are overpowered in recent games but it is not necessarily a bad thing.
badger
Posts: 11,793
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12/12/2011 12:21:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/12/2011 12:11:16 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
I think it is difficult to quantify who is overpowered. The town and the mafia trade information for people and as more townies dies, the town gets more information. So, I think roles that can CONFIRM townies are actually more powerful and dangerous to the mafia than powerful, unconfirmable townie roles.

Also, despite never losing as mafia, and never winning as town, I still think it is a lot more challenging to play as mafia as you have something to hide. Giving mafia a couple of safe character and maybe a role would help immensely. So, yeah i think the mafia are overpowered in recent games but it is not necessarily a bad thing.

so pretty much equal challenge either way it seems... f16 says moreso even when "overpowered," but then that "overpowered" would mean there's also extra challenge in winning as town... sounds good to me... the game's a mental exercise just, hardly a team sport...
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drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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12/12/2011 12:26:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The knowledge vs. numbers thing is indeed truth and the primary game mechanic. However, that is also not all there is to it. Imagine a game where the mafia knew who each other were, and their roles, but could not communicate. In some implementations of the game, the mafia can only communicate during the night phases.

The ability for the mafia to coordinate, discuss, and strategize (including the commentary and suggestsions of dead mafia players) is a GREAT advantage. It is an advantage, I think, that can sway the favor toward mafia in what would otherwise be a balanced game when considering only the roles involved.
badger
Posts: 11,793
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12/12/2011 12:28:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
when winning becomes no challenge at all for either side that's when there's a problem. which you'd realise without statistics...
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badger
Posts: 11,793
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12/12/2011 12:33:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/12/2011 12:26:56 PM, drafterman wrote:
The knowledge vs. numbers thing is indeed truth and the primary game mechanic. However, that is also not all there is to it. Imagine a game where the mafia knew who each other were, and their roles, but could not communicate. In some implementations of the game, the mafia can only communicate during the night phases.

The ability for the mafia to coordinate, discuss, and strategize (including the commentary and suggestsions of dead mafia players) is a GREAT advantage. It is an advantage, I think, that can sway the favor toward mafia in what would otherwise be a balanced game when considering only the roles involved.

eh intelligent townies can sign back up... why shouldn't intelligence be allowed remain in the mafia side? i'm thinking it sounds only fair... brilliant schemes and spotting them is what the game is about.
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badger
Posts: 11,793
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12/12/2011 12:34:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
you could of course argue for the townies not being allowed to sign back up but i'd take issue there too...
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drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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12/12/2011 12:35:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/12/2011 12:33:20 PM, badger wrote:
At 12/12/2011 12:26:56 PM, drafterman wrote:
The knowledge vs. numbers thing is indeed truth and the primary game mechanic. However, that is also not all there is to it. Imagine a game where the mafia knew who each other were, and their roles, but could not communicate. In some implementations of the game, the mafia can only communicate during the night phases.

The ability for the mafia to coordinate, discuss, and strategize (including the commentary and suggestsions of dead mafia players) is a GREAT advantage. It is an advantage, I think, that can sway the favor toward mafia in what would otherwise be a balanced game when considering only the roles involved.

eh intelligent townies can sign back up... why shouldn't intelligence be allowed remain in the mafia side? i'm thinking it sounds only fair... brilliant schemes and spotting them is what the game is about.

I didn't say intelligence shouldn't be allowed. I just said it is a factor.
badger
Posts: 11,793
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12/12/2011 12:42:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/12/2011 12:35:35 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 12/12/2011 12:33:20 PM, badger wrote:
At 12/12/2011 12:26:56 PM, drafterman wrote:
The knowledge vs. numbers thing is indeed truth and the primary game mechanic. However, that is also not all there is to it. Imagine a game where the mafia knew who each other were, and their roles, but could not communicate. In some implementations of the game, the mafia can only communicate during the night phases.

The ability for the mafia to coordinate, discuss, and strategize (including the commentary and suggestsions of dead mafia players) is a GREAT advantage. It is an advantage, I think, that can sway the favor toward mafia in what would otherwise be a balanced game when considering only the roles involved.

eh intelligent townies can sign back up... why shouldn't intelligence be allowed remain in the mafia side? i'm thinking it sounds only fair... brilliant schemes and spotting them is what the game is about.

I didn't say intelligence shouldn't be allowed. I just said it is a factor.

i see :) so you were just talking about weakening mafia roles to suit? you did however bring up that bit about how mafia can only talk during np's in some games, wherever you were going with it... i don't like that idea.
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drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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12/12/2011 1:39:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/12/2011 12:42:25 PM, badger wrote:
At 12/12/2011 12:35:35 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 12/12/2011 12:33:20 PM, badger wrote:
At 12/12/2011 12:26:56 PM, drafterman wrote:
The knowledge vs. numbers thing is indeed truth and the primary game mechanic. However, that is also not all there is to it. Imagine a game where the mafia knew who each other were, and their roles, but could not communicate. In some implementations of the game, the mafia can only communicate during the night phases.

The ability for the mafia to coordinate, discuss, and strategize (including the commentary and suggestsions of dead mafia players) is a GREAT advantage. It is an advantage, I think, that can sway the favor toward mafia in what would otherwise be a balanced game when considering only the roles involved.

eh intelligent townies can sign back up... why shouldn't intelligence be allowed remain in the mafia side? i'm thinking it sounds only fair... brilliant schemes and spotting them is what the game is about.

I didn't say intelligence shouldn't be allowed. I just said it is a factor.

i see :) so you were just talking about weakening mafia roles to suit? you did however bring up that bit about how mafia can only talk during np's in some games, wherever you were going with it... i don't like that idea.

No... I was providing an explanation as to why mafia may be winning an inordinate number of games. All things being equal, the win ratio should be 50/50 unless there is a deliberate attempt to make the game more difficult for one side or the other.
badger
Posts: 11,793
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12/12/2011 1:52:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/12/2011 1:39:14 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 12/12/2011 12:42:25 PM, badger wrote:
At 12/12/2011 12:35:35 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 12/12/2011 12:33:20 PM, badger wrote:
At 12/12/2011 12:26:56 PM, drafterman wrote:
The knowledge vs. numbers thing is indeed truth and the primary game mechanic. However, that is also not all there is to it. Imagine a game where the mafia knew who each other were, and their roles, but could not communicate. In some implementations of the game, the mafia can only communicate during the night phases.

The ability for the mafia to coordinate, discuss, and strategize (including the commentary and suggestsions of dead mafia players) is a GREAT advantage. It is an advantage, I think, that can sway the favor toward mafia in what would otherwise be a balanced game when considering only the roles involved.

eh intelligent townies can sign back up... why shouldn't intelligence be allowed remain in the mafia side? i'm thinking it sounds only fair... brilliant schemes and spotting them is what the game is about.

I didn't say intelligence shouldn't be allowed. I just said it is a factor.

i see :) so you were just talking about weakening mafia roles to suit? you did however bring up that bit about how mafia can only talk during np's in some games, wherever you were going with it... i don't like that idea.

No... I was providing an explanation as to why mafia may be winning an inordinate number of games. All things being equal, the win ratio should be 50/50 unless there is a deliberate attempt to make the game more difficult for one side or the other.

my apologies, i just picked up on an implementation i disliked and went against it. that's where you were going with that bit. should've copped it. my bad. still, any suggestions of remedy?

but besides, i've actually played in such a game, one where we the mafia were separated from each other at the beginning and went on to win without losing a single player lol... we didn't even come under suspicion really...

and funnily, i find the greatest mafia tell to actually be when players affiliate with each other in the game, like when they act on the same ideas almost as if having had the exact same ideas. i find players often make it evident they're in a pm with each other in the main thread.
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BlackVoid
Posts: 9,170
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12/12/2011 1:58:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Well the main reason the mafia have been winning recently is because I've been on their team...

But it all seriousness, sometimes the mafia realy has been overpowered. For instance, in the Star Trek game the mafia had 4 people and a 2 shot recruit. Thats insane.
bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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12/12/2011 2:14:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
One reason mafia is winning more is because there are more active, better players. Mafia's can't win with bad or inactive players. Many a mafia has lost because of one bad member and a hasty claim.

But some games do overpower too much. I'm still upset by tv's game, but not by losing in danielle's to the mafia. The difference is: losing to an overpowered role feels cr@ppy. You feel like you could have done nothing differently. The mod telling you "well you could have not mislynched that *one* time, or you could have not all role claimed, or you could have killed drafterman NP1" doesn't help since town typically mislynches, forces everyone to role claim, and doesn't kill the right person NP1." So losing to an overpowered role makes it feel like you were just playing so that that one person could have fun screwing with you. Whereas, losing by being duped by another smart player, like in danielle's game, gives you that feeling of "oh well, you GOT me." Losing never feels good, but it feels better if you feel like the mafia *earned* the win rather than being dealt a ridiculous hand by the mod.

I would rather have an underpowered town than an overpowered mafia. The game is played in the *DAY PHASE* after all. If you make the game's outcome far more dependent on the *night phase,* townies will not be happy since most of their playing doesn't affect the outcome.

So I hope mod's take note.

If you didn't play tv's game, here is drafterman's Mafia JOAT role:

Each night you may choose one of the following options:
FRAME: Target player will appear guilty to investigations.
DRIVER: Choose two targets. Any abilities used on the two targets will be switched.
JANITOR: Choose a target player. If that player's role information would normally be revealed the next Day Phase (if they were lynched the previous Day Phase or they are killed during that Night Phase) their information will be hidden for as long as you live.
LAWYER: Choose a target player (including yourself). If that player is investigated during that night phase, they will appear innocent.
SILENCER: Choose a target player. That player may not speak during the next day phase.
POLITICIAN: Choose a target player. You may choose who that person votes for during the next day phase.

Ore_ele, I know how much you hate silencers... lol .... sorry again for panda's game.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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12/12/2011 2:49:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/12/2011 2:14:11 PM, bluesteel wrote:
One reason mafia is winning more is because there are more active, better players. Mafia's can't win with bad or inactive players. Many a mafia has lost because of one bad member and a hasty claim.

But some games do overpower too much. I'm still upset by tv's game, but not by losing in danielle's to the mafia. The difference is: losing to an overpowered role feels cr@ppy. You feel like you could have done nothing differently. The mod telling you "well you could have not mislynched that *one* time, or you could have not all role claimed, or you could have killed drafterman NP1" doesn't help since town typically mislynches, forces everyone to role claim, and doesn't kill the right person NP1." So losing to an overpowered role makes it feel like you were just playing so that that one person could have fun screwing with you. Whereas, losing by being duped by another smart player, like in danielle's game, gives you that feeling of "oh well, you GOT me." Losing never feels good, but it feels better if you feel like the mafia *earned* the win rather than being dealt a ridiculous hand by the mod.

I would rather have an underpowered town than an overpowered mafia. The game is played in the *DAY PHASE* after all. If you make the game's outcome far more dependent on the *night phase,* townies will not be happy since most of their playing doesn't affect the outcome.

So I hope mod's take note.

If you didn't play tv's game, here is drafterman's Mafia JOAT role:

Each night you may choose one of the following options:
FRAME: Target player will appear guilty to investigations.
DRIVER: Choose two targets. Any abilities used on the two targets will be switched.
JANITOR: Choose a target player. If that player's role information would normally be revealed the next Day Phase (if they were lynched the previous Day Phase or they are killed during that Night Phase) their information will be hidden for as long as you live.
LAWYER: Choose a target player (including yourself). If that player is investigated during that night phase, they will appear innocent.
SILENCER: Choose a target player. That player may not speak during the next day phase.
POLITICIAN: Choose a target player. You may choose who that person votes for during the next day phase.

Ore_ele, I know how much you hate silencers... lol .... sorry again for panda's game.

Yes, lol, I do hate silencing roles (so now all mafia should know that if they ever get one, to target me just to piss me off), though I used them a little in the Drugged out game (though it was silencing that you inflicted upon yourself, rather than someone targeted you with).

I'm trying to come up with more roles that affect the DP, so more like investigative roles or things that offer "puzzle pieces" which would need to be put together.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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12/12/2011 3:42:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/12/2011 2:49:54 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 12/12/2011 2:14:11 PM, bluesteel wrote:
One reason mafia is winning more is because there are more active, better players. Mafia's can't win with bad or inactive players. Many a mafia has lost because of one bad member and a hasty claim.

But some games do overpower too much. I'm still upset by tv's game, but not by losing in danielle's to the mafia. The difference is: losing to an overpowered role feels cr@ppy. You feel like you could have done nothing differently. The mod telling you "well you could have not mislynched that *one* time, or you could have not all role claimed, or you could have killed drafterman NP1" doesn't help since town typically mislynches, forces everyone to role claim, and doesn't kill the right person NP1." So losing to an overpowered role makes it feel like you were just playing so that that one person could have fun screwing with you. Whereas, losing by being duped by another smart player, like in danielle's game, gives you that feeling of "oh well, you GOT me." Losing never feels good, but it feels better if you feel like the mafia *earned* the win rather than being dealt a ridiculous hand by the mod.

I would rather have an underpowered town than an overpowered mafia. The game is played in the *DAY PHASE* after all. If you make the game's outcome far more dependent on the *night phase,* townies will not be happy since most of their playing doesn't affect the outcome.

So I hope mod's take note.

If you didn't play tv's game, here is drafterman's Mafia JOAT role:

Each night you may choose one of the following options:
FRAME: Target player will appear guilty to investigations.
DRIVER: Choose two targets. Any abilities used on the two targets will be switched.
JANITOR: Choose a target player. If that player's role information would normally be revealed the next Day Phase (if they were lynched the previous Day Phase or they are killed during that Night Phase) their information will be hidden for as long as you live.
LAWYER: Choose a target player (including yourself). If that player is investigated during that night phase, they will appear innocent.
SILENCER: Choose a target player. That player may not speak during the next day phase.
POLITICIAN: Choose a target player. You may choose who that person votes for during the next day phase.

Ore_ele, I know how much you hate silencers... lol .... sorry again for panda's game.

Yes, lol, I do hate silencing roles (so now all mafia should know that if they ever get one, to target me just to piss me off), though I used them a little in the Drugged out game (though it was silencing that you inflicted upon yourself, rather than someone targeted you with).

I'm trying to come up with more roles that affect the DP, so more like investigative roles or things that offer "puzzle pieces" which would need to be put together.

Given that I am a novice, I do not know much about the balance of the game. However, I have created two roles that may be useful (I will leave it to you to decide.)

1. Secret Agent

You begin the game with the name of one member of the mafia. However, you may not reveal this individual's name to the town, may not initiate lynches against him, and may only vote to lynch him if you are the fifth person to do so. You win with the town.

2. Mafia Zealot

Every odd night phase, you can sacrifice one member of the mafia to kill a member of the town in addition to the regular kill. You win with the mafia.
badger
Posts: 11,793
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12/13/2011 9:14:19 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/12/2011 3:42:56 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 12/12/2011 2:49:54 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 12/12/2011 2:14:11 PM, bluesteel wrote:
One reason mafia is winning more is because there are more active, better players. Mafia's can't win with bad or inactive players. Many a mafia has lost because of one bad member and a hasty claim.

But some games do overpower too much. I'm still upset by tv's game, but not by losing in danielle's to the mafia. The difference is: losing to an overpowered role feels cr@ppy. You feel like you could have done nothing differently. The mod telling you "well you could have not mislynched that *one* time, or you could have not all role claimed, or you could have killed drafterman NP1" doesn't help since town typically mislynches, forces everyone to role claim, and doesn't kill the right person NP1." So losing to an overpowered role makes it feel like you were just playing so that that one person could have fun screwing with you. Whereas, losing by being duped by another smart player, like in danielle's game, gives you that feeling of "oh well, you GOT me." Losing never feels good, but it feels better if you feel like the mafia *earned* the win rather than being dealt a ridiculous hand by the mod.

I would rather have an underpowered town than an overpowered mafia. The game is played in the *DAY PHASE* after all. If you make the game's outcome far more dependent on the *night phase,* townies will not be happy since most of their playing doesn't affect the outcome.

So I hope mod's take note.

If you didn't play tv's game, here is drafterman's Mafia JOAT role:

Each night you may choose one of the following options:
FRAME: Target player will appear guilty to investigations.
DRIVER: Choose two targets. Any abilities used on the two targets will be switched.
JANITOR: Choose a target player. If that player's role information would normally be revealed the next Day Phase (if they were lynched the previous Day Phase or they are killed during that Night Phase) their information will be hidden for as long as you live.
LAWYER: Choose a target player (including yourself). If that player is investigated during that night phase, they will appear innocent.
SILENCER: Choose a target player. That player may not speak during the next day phase.
POLITICIAN: Choose a target player. You may choose who that person votes for during the next day phase.

Ore_ele, I know how much you hate silencers... lol .... sorry again for panda's game.

Yes, lol, I do hate silencing roles (so now all mafia should know that if they ever get one, to target me just to piss me off), though I used them a little in the Drugged out game (though it was silencing that you inflicted upon yourself, rather than someone targeted you with).

I'm trying to come up with more roles that affect the DP, so more like investigative roles or things that offer "puzzle pieces" which would need to be put together.

Given that I am a novice, I do not know much about the balance of the game. However, I have created two roles that may be useful (I will leave it to you to decide.)

1. Secret Agent

You begin the game with the name of one member of the mafia. However, you may not reveal this individual's name to the town, may not initiate lynches against him, and may only vote to lynch him if you are the fifth person to do so. You win with the town.

2. Mafia Zealot

Every odd night phase, you can sacrifice one member of the mafia to kill a member of the town in addition to the regular kill. You win with the mafia.

nice roles! especially the first...
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drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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12/13/2011 9:38:00 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/12/2011 3:42:56 PM, royalpaladin wrote:

Given that I am a novice, I do not know much about the balance of the game. However, I have created two roles that may be useful (I will leave it to you to decide.)

1. Secret Agent

You begin the game with the name of one member of the mafia. However, you may not reveal this individual's name to the town, may not initiate lynches against him, and may only vote to lynch him if you are the fifth person to do so. You win with the town.

Roles that give players information they can't act on are problematic. Ok, they can't reveal the name or initiate a lynch, but there are so many ways around this. It's so subjective as to what constitutes "revealing" an individual's name. "Hey, #5 in the sign-up sheet is mafia." Or simply wait till they post and say something like, "I have results that say you're guilty." This is why non-town players are ineligible for replacement - they no too much and there is no way to prevent them from acting on that information that won't end the game for the affiliation they were a member of.


2. Mafia Zealot

Every odd night phase, you can sacrifice one member of the mafia to kill a member of the town in addition to the regular kill. You win with the mafia.

This already exists with the Suicide Bomber.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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12/13/2011 9:50:32 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/13/2011 9:38:00 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 12/12/2011 3:42:56 PM, royalpaladin wrote:

Given that I am a novice, I do not know much about the balance of the game. However, I have created two roles that may be useful (I will leave it to you to decide.)

1. Secret Agent

You begin the game with the name of one member of the mafia. However, you may not reveal this individual's name to the town, may not initiate lynches against him, and may only vote to lynch him if you are the fifth person to do so. You win with the town.

Roles that give players information they can't act on are problematic. Ok, they can't reveal the name or initiate a lynch, but there are so many ways around this. It's so subjective as to what constitutes "revealing" an individual's name. "Hey, #5 in the sign-up sheet is mafia." Or simply wait till they post and say something like, "I have results that say you're guilty." This is why non-town players are ineligible for replacement - they no too much and there is no way to prevent them from acting on that information that won't end the game for the affiliation they were a member of.

This was just a cursory draft; we can easily alter the roles to make them more palatable. This player, for example, might not be able to reveal any information that could lead to the mafia's capture at all. Besides, it would be to the town's advantage to not immediately lynch the exposed mafia member because they would want to study his interactions with other users on the board. This also ensures that the mafia have to be more careful and play in a more strategic manner to win. In other words, this role could potentially balance the game.


2. Mafia Zealot

Every odd night phase, you can sacrifice one member of the mafia to kill a member of the town in addition to the regular kill. You win with the mafia.

This already exists with the Suicide Bomber.

This is slightly different insofar as the Suicide Bomber murders himself while the Zealot sacrifices another member to kill a townie.