Total Posts:12|Showing Posts:1-12
Jump to topic:

Friday Game Theory Discussion: Role Madness

drafterman
Posts: 18,870
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/16/2011 11:20:49 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
In my own personal research I've done on Mafia, the types of games that are played here would be called "Role Madness" and indicate a deviation from what would be considered "Normal" mafia, where there are only a few roles, and everyone else is a vanilla/goon.

How did Mafia evolve here on DDO? Do we play mostly Role Madness because that's more exciting? Do people think that having many Vanilla/Goon characters to be boring? Or is it simply too hard to play based on behavior alone?

I think, by playing on a forum, a lot of the behaviorial tells that make it hard for a person to continuously lie are masked, thus making it harder to out mafia without some ability. Plus, it's a game and there really is not right or wrong way to play it. I think these are enough to justify having these "Role Madness" games.

Now, this isn't a criticism, but more of an observation plus a question. Have there been more "traditional" games? What was the response? Should I interpret their absense as an indication that they are not enjoyed here? This is also relevant as I intend my first mod game to be more traditional in this sense.

--- BONUS DISCUSSION ---

While I can understand the criticism of the Vigilante mafia going on, I can also empathize with the reasons for its creation: a quick rapid-fire game to hold people over until more official games got kicked off.

I was wondering if something like that could just be an ongoing feature. This is what I came up with the top of my head:

Quick Fire Mafia:
Cop - Town
Doctor - Town
Vigilante - Town
Watcher - Town
Serial Killer - 3rd Party
Role Cop - Mafia
Bulletproof - Mafia

No characters, no theme, no night-phase. Fixed time day phases (24 hrs?). When the day phase ends, whoever has most votes is lynched (tie = no lynch), any end-of-day actions not submitted are forfeit. Guaranteed not to last more than 3 days. End Game Thread includes sign-ups for the next round.

I just made the above make-up on a whim, so I don't necessarily consider it balanced. Consider it a prototype.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/16/2011 11:40:09 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I've never played mafia anywhere other than here. But I've heard that other games are more fast-pace, and only last like a few hours, rather than weeks. In a fast pace game, I could imagine that being vanilla or goon is not so bad, since there is high activities. But with how long these games last (and with NPs that can last days), having no night power can cause some people to get bored. Couple that with how the DP can start at any time, whether you are on or not, can mean that you get left behind in the DP discussion, and some people don't want to read up (evidenced by how many people say "can someone give me a summary?").
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/16/2011 11:45:01 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/16/2011 11:40:09 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
I've never played mafia anywhere other than here. But I've heard that other games are more fast-pace, and only last like a few hours, rather than weeks. In a fast pace game, I could imagine that being vanilla or goon is not so bad, since there is high activities. But with how long these games last (and with NPs that can last days), having no night power can cause some people to get bored. Couple that with how the DP can start at any time, whether you are on or not, can mean that you get left behind in the DP discussion, and some people don't want to read up (evidenced by how many people say "can someone give me a summary?").

I believe mafia started out as a party game. So everyone is already there and plays the game until it ends. Don't have to worry about people being "online." So it seems right that it would take a LOT quicker to do in person. You get everything out immediately, and don't have to wait on certain people responding.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/16/2011 11:46:37 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/16/2011 11:20:49 AM, drafterman wrote:
In my own personal research I've done on Mafia, the types of games that are played here would be called "Role Madness" and indicate a deviation from what would be considered "Normal" mafia, where there are only a few roles, and everyone else is a vanilla/goon.

How did Mafia evolve here on DDO? Do we play mostly Role Madness because that's more exciting? Do people think that having many Vanilla/Goon characters to be boring? Or is it simply too hard to play based on behavior alone?

I think, by playing on a forum, a lot of the behaviorial tells that make it hard for a person to continuously lie are masked, thus making it harder to out mafia without some ability. Plus, it's a game and there really is not right or wrong way to play it. I think these are enough to justify having these "Role Madness" games.

Now, this isn't a criticism, but more of an observation plus a question. Have there been more "traditional" games? What was the response? Should I interpret their absense as an indication that they are not enjoyed here? This is also relevant as I intend my first mod game to be more traditional in this sense.

--- BONUS DISCUSSION ---

While I can understand the criticism of the Vigilante mafia going on, I can also empathize with the reasons for its creation: a quick rapid-fire game to hold people over until more official games got kicked off.

I was wondering if something like that could just be an ongoing feature. This is what I came up with the top of my head:

Quick Fire Mafia:
Cop - Town
Doctor - Town
Vigilante - Town
Watcher - Town
Serial Killer - 3rd Party
Role Cop - Mafia
Bulletproof - Mafia

No characters, no theme, no night-phase. Fixed time day phases (24 hrs?). When the day phase ends, whoever has most votes is lynched (tie = no lynch), any end-of-day actions not submitted are forfeit. Guaranteed not to last more than 3 days. End Game Thread includes sign-ups for the next round.

I just made the above make-up on a whim, so I don't necessarily consider it balanced. Consider it a prototype.

I like the idea of quick-fire games, that's why I wanted to try out the vigilante game while there was nothing else going on. The format for a small quick game like that doesn't have to be fixed and it doesn't take much planning at all.

I'd also like to gauge the interest for continuous games. Games that are played by players who are going to be online long enough to finish a game in a few hours.
caveat
Posts: 2,137
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/16/2011 11:51:16 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
The original Mafia (mafia, cop, doctor, vanillas) was meant for face-to-face gameplay where responses from other players to your comments were instantaneous (if not during your comments :P).

This presents the significant difference from forum mafia. Body language is the key factor in fingering and drawing suspicion; without it, the game tilts in favour of the mafia (generally). However, I don't believe this to be the reason why forum Mafia is so much more complex over the fact that players have much more than live Mafia in terms of resources like time, recording/note-taking equipment, and logs of all past conversation to name a few.

Unfortunately, I haven't been here long enough to comment on Mafia history, but I'd love to hear the answers as well.

Quick Fire Mafia

This actually sounds incredibly fun. Small Mafia games tend to have the best discussion and involvement barring some extreme skill gap. As you mentioned, that setup probably isn't balanced, but I can see this format as a definite possibility.
There is an art, it says, or rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. " Clearly, it is this second part, the missing, which presents the difficulties.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/16/2011 11:53:32 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Quickfire has been tried a few times, but not recently, so maybe now is its time.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
caveat
Posts: 2,137
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/16/2011 11:57:11 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/16/2011 11:46:37 AM, medic0506 wrote:
I'd also like to gauge the interest for continuous games. Games that are played by players who are going to be online long enough to finish a game in a few hours.

Since I'm only in one game at the moment, I've taken the liberty of reading through DPs of past Mafia games. I've noticed quite a few people spend consecutive hours on a single DP (myself being one of them, even when no new posts were being added :P), enough to make up one game at the least.

With regards to the specifics, you could use a poll of some sort to determine the most preferable time during the week and make it a bi-weekly event (or weekly if there's enough interest/mods).
There is an art, it says, or rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. " Clearly, it is this second part, the missing, which presents the difficulties.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/16/2011 12:46:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/16/2011 11:53:32 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
Quickfire has been tried a few times, but not recently, so maybe now is its time.

Was there not enough interest, why didn't it catch on, in your opinion?? What were some of the reasons it failed??
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/16/2011 12:51:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/16/2011 12:46:08 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 12/16/2011 11:53:32 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
Quickfire has been tried a few times, but not recently, so maybe now is its time.

Was there not enough interest, why didn't it catch on, in your opinion?? What were some of the reasons it failed??

I didn't play because it was scheduled for a time that I could not commit to. Also, because I'm at work, I can be on DDO pretty much all day, but at any given time, a stack of invoices could hit my desk and I'll be "off" for an hour (well, I'll be on, but the window will be minimized so I'm not actually on). So I cannot commit to any really fast pace that requires 100% attention.

I think that was the problem that most people had. But since I was not in the game, I am not able to give a more detailed review.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Logic_on_rails
Posts: 2,445
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/16/2011 3:01:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
There used to be far more vanillas placed in games. However, due to games online taking longer, and people losing interest as vanillas (meaning slower games as they participate less) , less vanillas started occurring. I think role madness is popular as it involves everybody.

I am trying to address this a little in my planned game, but trying to get a certain role to work is very difficult while allowing a certain other thing to occur.

Drafterman, how much does role madness correlate with bastard mod tactics? Interested in hearing a response to this question.
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/16/2011 3:03:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/16/2011 3:01:08 PM, Logic_on_rails wrote:
There used to be far more vanillas placed in games. However, due to games online taking longer, and people losing interest as vanillas (meaning slower games as they participate less) , less vanillas started occurring. I think role madness is popular as it involves everybody.

I am trying to address this a little in my planned game, but trying to get a certain role to work is very difficult while allowing a certain other thing to occur.

Drafterman, how much does role madness correlate with bastard mod tactics? Interested in hearing a response to this question.
My understanding is that bastard nodding occurs when you can't trust what the mod says. This is above and beyond hidden attributes. An example would be the Death Miller.
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/16/2011 5:25:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
If you want a quick mafia fix, go and play epicmafia.com
The games are chat-room based and last between 10 minutes to an hour.

All the mafia players here should join and start a family.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
Using mafia tactics in real-life: http://www.debate.org...
6 years of DDO: http://www.debate.org...