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Should we let newbs play in regular games?

Lickdafoot
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12/19/2011 2:05:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
There has been some discussion going around about kicking certain newb players out of the regular games and making them play the beginner games first.

As of right now, this is being done haphazardly and unfairly. If people want to stick to this idea, then there should be some guidelines so everyone gets fair treatment.

I'm for newbs playing in regular games. If they are stuck to beginner games, they will have to wait until the next round starts up. Then, they wil have to wait for all the other noobs to fill up the spots. Seeing as how noobs come in at their own irregular pace, this could take a long time. The newb could get bored and not join in.

Futhermore, as a mafia community we should be wanting to encourage new members. We should not be treating them with disdain. They are NEWBS. Of course they won't play great. This is a complicated game and it takes practice. Not one person can jump in a game and play perfectly the first time. Having newbs playing with the regulars can help them learn. If they mess up in one game, there is always the next game. None of us play perfectly. If a newb is being active and trying their best, we need to be encouraging their play rather than kicking them out of games. They won't get any better if we kick them out, and our mafia community will become stagnated.

But I understand not everyone wants their game "ruined" by a newb. If you all think newbs should not join the regular games, we need to establish some guidelines as a more effective means of enforcing this rule.

I'd like to hear everyone elses thoughts on the matter.
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BlackVoid
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12/19/2011 2:07:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I'm generally for it. I think we're freaking out too much about Capllock's mistake and Tyler's play style. We shouldnt change our entire policy based on the actions of two people.
Lickdafoot
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12/19/2011 2:11:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/19/2011 2:07:46 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
I'm generally for it. I think we're freaking out too much about Capllock's mistake and Tyler's play style. We shouldnt change our entire policy based on the actions of two people.

I think it's very selfish to be honest. Yeah, part of this game relys on how well your teammates play. That means teaching your teammates and helping them along if they need it; NOT punishing them for making mistakes that we all have made at times.
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drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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12/19/2011 2:12:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/19/2011 2:05:29 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
There has been some discussion going around about kicking certain newb players out of the regular games and making them play the beginner games first.

As of right now, this is being done haphazardly and unfairly. If people want to stick to this idea, then there should be some guidelines so everyone gets fair treatment.

I'm for newbs playing in regular games. If they are stuck to beginner games, they will have to wait until the next round starts up. Then, they wil have to wait for all the other noobs to fill up the spots. Seeing as how noobs come in at their own irregular pace, this could take a long time. The newb could get bored and not join in.

Futhermore, as a mafia community we should be wanting to encourage new members. We should not be treating them with disdain. They are NEWBS. Of course they won't play great. This is a complicated game and it takes practice. Not one person can jump in a game and play perfectly the first time. Having newbs playing with the regulars can help them learn. If they mess up in one game, there is always the next game. None of us play perfectly. If a newb is being active and trying their best, we need to be encouraging their play rather than kicking them out of games. They won't get any better if we kick them out, and our mafia community will become stagnated.

But I understand not everyone wants their game "ruined" by a newb. If you all think newbs should not join the regular games, we need to establish some guidelines as a more effective means of enforcing this rule.

I'd like to hear everyone elses thoughts on the matter.

I don't think there should be a "rule" either way. Mod discretion.

bviously I can't be against letting news play in regular games, as I started out in Dexter mafia. I Obviously can't be for just letting them play, because there are some people that can't even follow basic rules like PMing random players about the game.

I say people should always be given a chance. If a mod thinks that a player needs more experience before being in their games, then so be it.
drafterman
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12/19/2011 2:23:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/19/2011 2:21:10 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 12/19/2011 2:16:50 PM, CAPLlock wrote:
Is there even enough Noobs to fill up a Beginner game?

Probably not.

The latest beginner game filled up with pretty much newbs, except LK and JM. If we reduce the size, I think they'd go better. I have some ideas I'm waiting for the next batch of beginners (5) to test out.
Lickdafoot
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12/19/2011 2:26:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
@ Drafter.

so we let the person who c/p their role pm into another game and kick out the person who was actively participating and trying?

Seems more like subjective favoring than thinking a player needs more experience.

I'm not blaming spinko but i don't think he neccessarily realized that he was singling out one over the other. i think "leaving it up to the mod" is unfair for that reason.
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Lickdafoot
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12/19/2011 2:31:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/19/2011 2:23:48 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 12/19/2011 2:21:10 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 12/19/2011 2:16:50 PM, CAPLlock wrote:
Is there even enough Noobs to fill up a Beginner game?

Probably not.

The latest beginner game filled up with pretty much newbs, except LK and JM. If we reduce the size, I think they'd go better. I have some ideas I'm waiting for the next batch of beginners (5) to test out.

actually yeah, I didn't realize that blue had separate signups for each beginner game. It seems to be filling up fine.
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royalpaladin
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12/19/2011 2:31:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/19/2011 2:26:56 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
@ Drafter.

so we let the person who c/p their role pm into another game and kick out the person who was actively participating and trying?

Seems more like subjective favoring than thinking a player needs more experience.

I'm not blaming spinko but i don't think he neccessarily realized that he was singling out one over the other. i think "leaving it up to the mod" is unfair for that reason.

I think tyler did a much better job in the Interwebz game than he did in the beginner game. He defintely had at least Danielle fooled ;)
royalpaladin
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12/19/2011 2:31:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/19/2011 2:12:56 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 12/19/2011 2:05:29 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
There has been some discussion going around about kicking certain newb players out of the regular games and making them play the beginner games first.

As of right now, this is being done haphazardly and unfairly. If people want to stick to this idea, then there should be some guidelines so everyone gets fair treatment.

I'm for newbs playing in regular games. If they are stuck to beginner games, they will have to wait until the next round starts up. Then, they wil have to wait for all the other noobs to fill up the spots. Seeing as how noobs come in at their own irregular pace, this could take a long time. The newb could get bored and not join in.

Futhermore, as a mafia community we should be wanting to encourage new members. We should not be treating them with disdain. They are NEWBS. Of course they won't play great. This is a complicated game and it takes practice. Not one person can jump in a game and play perfectly the first time. Having newbs playing with the regulars can help them learn. If they mess up in one game, there is always the next game. None of us play perfectly. If a newb is being active and trying their best, we need to be encouraging their play rather than kicking them out of games. They won't get any better if we kick them out, and our mafia community will become stagnated.

But I understand not everyone wants their game "ruined" by a newb. If you all think newbs should not join the regular games, we need to establish some guidelines as a more effective means of enforcing this rule.

I'd like to hear everyone elses thoughts on the matter.

I don't think there should be a "rule" either way. Mod discretion.

bviously I can't be against letting news play in regular games, as I started out in Dexter mafia. I Obviously can't be for just letting them play, because there are some people that can't even follow basic rules like PMing random players about the game.

I say people should always be given a chance. If a mod thinks that a player needs more experience before being in their games, then so be it.

Just curious: why were you replaced? You did not initiate either of those two PMs.
drafterman
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12/19/2011 2:33:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/19/2011 2:26:56 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
@ Drafter.

so we let the person who c/p their role pm into another game and kick out the person who was actively participating and trying?

If that's what the mod wants. Sure, he can be criticized for being unfair and inconsistent, but I don't think there is any basis on which we can stop him or her.


Seems more like subjective favoring than thinking a player needs more experience.

I'm not blaming spinko but i don't think he neccessarily realized that he was singling out one over the other. i think "leaving it up to the mod" is unfair for that reason.

You can't have it both ways, LDF. Either it's subjective favoring or it's a simple oversight (spinko know about one's behavior, but not the other's). If a mod wants to create a game specifically tailored for specific people, I don't think we have any right to stop them. If we have beginner games, why can't we have non-beginner games? Again, mod discretion, I don't think there should be any hard and fast rules here.

Regardless, the discussion is academic. You can't force mods to mod games according to any set of rules. The current "mod list" operates only by voluntary cooperation and players have absolutely NO aversion to joining and playing unsanctioned games.

Blue banned MiG from playing in any of his games for trolling. Are you saying that, if blue hosts a game and MiG tries to sign up, blue HAS to include MiG?
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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12/19/2011 2:34:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Okay, I will say this. Playing in a group of noobs is not as fun as it would be as playing in a group of mostly intermediate players, some noobs and maybe one advanced player.

I started off playing in Medic's "beginner" games and the most fun part of it was that all the other players could help and explain what was going on. Maybe I am just wierd that way but I like jumping into the deep end.

Regarding noobs, Drafterman makes a very good point. It depends on the person, and it is completely subjective. Some players (like him) started off very strongly. Others like me started off weakly. But we both turned out okay and we didn't play in a real "beginner's game" like the ones that the current beginners are playing. I think the vast difference of skill level between a beginner and one of the top players in the game when they are pitted side by side drags down the game (for instance, Tyler never validated his suspicions etc, etc).

I also agree with LDF that excluding them from regular games is unfair. I think the best compromise is to TELL people that they should play beginner games first but let them join if they insist. But then again, we would have situations like what we had in the interwebz game.
drafterman
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12/19/2011 2:34:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/19/2011 2:31:57 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 12/19/2011 2:12:56 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 12/19/2011 2:05:29 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
There has been some discussion going around about kicking certain newb players out of the regular games and making them play the beginner games first.

As of right now, this is being done haphazardly and unfairly. If people want to stick to this idea, then there should be some guidelines so everyone gets fair treatment.

I'm for newbs playing in regular games. If they are stuck to beginner games, they will have to wait until the next round starts up. Then, they wil have to wait for all the other noobs to fill up the spots. Seeing as how noobs come in at their own irregular pace, this could take a long time. The newb could get bored and not join in.

Futhermore, as a mafia community we should be wanting to encourage new members. We should not be treating them with disdain. They are NEWBS. Of course they won't play great. This is a complicated game and it takes practice. Not one person can jump in a game and play perfectly the first time. Having newbs playing with the regulars can help them learn. If they mess up in one game, there is always the next game. None of us play perfectly. If a newb is being active and trying their best, we need to be encouraging their play rather than kicking them out of games. They won't get any better if we kick them out, and our mafia community will become stagnated.

But I understand not everyone wants their game "ruined" by a newb. If you all think newbs should not join the regular games, we need to establish some guidelines as a more effective means of enforcing this rule.

I'd like to hear everyone elses thoughts on the matter.

I don't think there should be a "rule" either way. Mod discretion.

bviously I can't be against letting news play in regular games, as I started out in Dexter mafia. I Obviously can't be for just letting them play, because there are some people that can't even follow basic rules like PMing random players about the game.

I say people should always be given a chance. If a mod thinks that a player needs more experience before being in their games, then so be it.

Just curious: why were you replaced? You did not initiate either of those two PMs.

Please stop trying to discuss a game that is currently in progress outside of the game thread. I will explain when that game is concluded.
Lickdafoot
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12/19/2011 2:41:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/19/2011 2:33:20 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 12/19/2011 2:26:56 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
@ Drafter.

so we let the person who c/p their role pm into another game and kick out the person who was actively participating and trying?

If that's what the mod wants. Sure, he can be criticized for being unfair and inconsistent, but I don't think there is any basis on which we can stop him or her.


Seems more like subjective favoring than thinking a player needs more experience.

I'm not blaming spinko but i don't think he neccessarily realized that he was singling out one over the other. i think "leaving it up to the mod" is unfair for that reason.

You can't have it both ways, LDF. Either it's subjective favoring or it's a simple oversight (spinko know about one's behavior, but not the other's). If a mod wants to create a game specifically tailored for specific people, I don't think we have any right to stop them. If we have beginner games, why can't we have non-beginner games? Again, mod discretion, I don't think there should be any hard and fast rules here.

I don't know why spinko did it so i'm not judging him on it. The point is, it wasn't fair when they both are newbs and both played screwy.


Regardless, the discussion is academic. You can't force mods to mod games according to any set of rules. The current "mod list" operates only by voluntary cooperation and players have absolutely NO aversion to joining and playing unsanctioned games.

Blue banned MiG from playing in any of his games for trolling. Are you saying that, if blue hosts a game and MiG tries to sign up, blue HAS to include MiG?

No, I'm not talking about banning people for acting out. That is completely different. I'm talking about letting newbs into the regular games or not.

We have communal rules for everything else. I am not FORCING anyone to do anything. That is why i am asking everyone of their opinions. I am trying to come to some sort of consensus so that people will be treated more fairly and so that the mafia community will run smoother. If the consensus is to have no consensus, then that is how it will be.
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drafterman
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12/19/2011 2:43:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/19/2011 2:41:17 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 12/19/2011 2:33:20 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 12/19/2011 2:26:56 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
@ Drafter.

so we let the person who c/p their role pm into another game and kick out the person who was actively participating and trying?

If that's what the mod wants. Sure, he can be criticized for being unfair and inconsistent, but I don't think there is any basis on which we can stop him or her.


Seems more like subjective favoring than thinking a player needs more experience.

I'm not blaming spinko but i don't think he neccessarily realized that he was singling out one over the other. i think "leaving it up to the mod" is unfair for that reason.

You can't have it both ways, LDF. Either it's subjective favoring or it's a simple oversight (spinko know about one's behavior, but not the other's). If a mod wants to create a game specifically tailored for specific people, I don't think we have any right to stop them. If we have beginner games, why can't we have non-beginner games? Again, mod discretion, I don't think there should be any hard and fast rules here.

I don't know why spinko did it so i'm not judging him on it. The point is, it wasn't fair when they both are newbs and both played screwy.


Regardless, the discussion is academic. You can't force mods to mod games according to any set of rules. The current "mod list" operates only by voluntary cooperation and players have absolutely NO aversion to joining and playing unsanctioned games.

Blue banned MiG from playing in any of his games for trolling. Are you saying that, if blue hosts a game and MiG tries to sign up, blue HAS to include MiG?

No, I'm not talking about banning people for acting out. That is completely different. I'm talking about letting newbs into the regular games or not.

We have communal rules for everything else. I am not FORCING anyone to do anything. That is why i am asking everyone of their opinions. I am trying to come to some sort of consensus so that people will be treated more fairly and so that the mafia community will run smoother. If the consensus is to have no consensus, then that is how it will be.

I don't think people should be disallowed from joining a game if it's their first. But after that, I think the mods should be allowed to decide if they want a player to be in their game, based on previous playing behavior.
Chrysippus
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12/19/2011 2:52:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Allow me to explain my reasoning.

When I first joined, there wasn't any of these beginner games. You jumped in and learned as you went, often haphazardly and desperately. The strategy current then was "lynch the n00b," so it was doubly hard to stay alive and learn. I know I messed up some carefully planned setups by virtue of not knowing how to play.

Since then, I've modded a game, and if I had excluded the trolls and the clueless, it would have been more fun for everyone. There still weren't games to train new players, so everyone who signed up was in.

Now, thanks to Freedo (I think?), we DO have a way for new players to learn, gently and easily. I wish I had had those games when I was new. And I agree with Lick, if a rule is set up, it should be fairly administered. I don't think this calls for a rule, though; common sense says to put the new players through a few beginner's games first before allowing them to play the full games. That's what I would do were I a mod now.
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Logic_on_rails
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12/19/2011 2:56:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Put simply, mod discretion. Mods can go decide if the new players are good enough. I find that I can tell who most of the best beginners are just from looking at their first beginner game, so if I was modding I'd make decisions based on that sort of thing.

Maybe for the first game we'd let them (otherwise we can't gauge their skill) . Now, I do see the issue of having to wait for more Mafia games (I think the rapid pace has kept more players around) , but as long as the beginner games keep rolling over we're fine.

I'm typically quite scared about new players as Mafia vs. town. As town, so long as they don't have a really good role (like cop or doc) , their screw up is okay (plus, mods normally give new players weaker roles) . As Mafia though their screw up completely throws things out of balance. Ie. 1 new Mafia who gets himself killed is equivalent to about 3 town deaths (remember ratio is 1/3 to 1/5 Mafia, so it can be worse) . So, multiple new players in the Mafia wrecks the game. One of my theories is that you can put those recognised as the best on the town side, so long as the Mafia has no 'weak links' , which are various kinds of people. Beginners make this impossible.

To give an example, I'll highlight the current miscellaneous Mafia game. The Mafia has had 3 beginners die with ease. 1 of them couldn't even make a coherent role claim. Having 3 beginners die off leaves about 3 Mafia left (a guess; there was also 3rd party PGO and serial killer) perhaps. But it's not just the fact that the Mafia was in a way worse position numbers wise, they also lose the roles of the beginner players, which further weakens them. Now, as a town player this sounds brilliant, but I can imagine the pain of the Mafia. As in the mod advice page, you've got to ensure the game is fun as Mafia as well.

So, I'm for mod discretion. Mods can be as strict or lenient as they want, maybe forced to accept first time players, but that'd be the only restriction I might place.
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Ore_Ele
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12/19/2011 2:57:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/19/2011 2:05:29 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
There has been some discussion going around about kicking certain newb players out of the regular games and making them play the beginner games first.

As of right now, this is being done haphazardly and unfairly. If people want to stick to this idea, then there should be some guidelines so everyone gets fair treatment.

I'm for newbs playing in regular games. If they are stuck to beginner games, they will have to wait until the next round starts up. Then, they wil have to wait for all the other noobs to fill up the spots. Seeing as how noobs come in at their own irregular pace, this could take a long time. The newb could get bored and not join in.

Futhermore, as a mafia community we should be wanting to encourage new members. We should not be treating them with disdain. They are NEWBS. Of course they won't play great. This is a complicated game and it takes practice. Not one person can jump in a game and play perfectly the first time. Having newbs playing with the regulars can help them learn. If they mess up in one game, there is always the next game. None of us play perfectly. If a newb is being active and trying their best, we need to be encouraging their play rather than kicking them out of games. They won't get any better if we kick them out, and our mafia community will become stagnated.

But I understand not everyone wants their game "ruined" by a newb. If you all think newbs should not join the regular games, we need to establish some guidelines as a more effective means of enforcing this rule.

I'd like to hear everyone elses thoughts on the matter.

Really, it is up to the individual mod how they want to handle it. In some cases, newbs have been able to get the concepts of the game right off the bat and have been excellent when they hit the ground running. Others have completely goofed up.

However, whatever a mod does, they should be uniform with their decision. For me, it really does depend on the game that I've set up. Some are a little harder than others. For the solar system game that I have, a newb would probably be an okay player, since there isn't really that much that is new with that game. However, for something like the drugged out game, that probably should have been newb free, since it had several new elements to it.
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tvellalott
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12/19/2011 3:01:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Newbs in general should be able to play any game they want.
The beginner games are good, but really.. they're not necessary. They are a good alternative to what I did when I first got obsessed, which is start playing epicmafia and mafiascum for more practise.
I started playing during the "Last Avatar" game I believe (not 100% sure) and got the hang of it pretty damn fast.
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Ore_Ele
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12/19/2011 3:03:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Step one is for players to actually have to gonads to say that they won't sign up for every game. When you sign up for any and every game, regardless of the theme or mod, then you are basically creating a qualityless demand, and so the supply will never respond with higher quality.

I am actually to the point where I sign up for fewer games than I ignore, based upon the themes and the mods. The only way for the players to have any control is to have the control to say "no".
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Lickdafoot
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12/19/2011 3:09:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/19/2011 3:03:54 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
Step one is for players to actually have to gonads to say that they won't sign up for every game. When you sign up for any and every game, regardless of the theme or mod, then you are basically creating a qualityless demand, and so the supply will never respond with higher quality.

I am actually to the point where I sign up for fewer games than I ignore, based upon the themes and the mods. The only way for the players to have any control is to have the control to say "no".

good point
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Logic_on_rails
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12/19/2011 3:10:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I agree with OreEle, some games aren't suited to beginners, some are better.

Like Chrys said, beginners get attacked in normal games, limiting the learning experience. I know that the first normal game I was in I accidentally spoke in the official game announcement PM, was forced to claim first (I was cop) , and so might have cost my team a win (although, certain vanillas played horribly) . I'm sure that the experienced players were annoyed when the new player was cop, and so a serious power role was outed first.
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But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
tyler90az
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12/19/2011 3:13:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
(for instance, Tyler never validated his suspicions etc, etc).

I actually did....

Also to say I suck is bs... I knew who all the mafia were in beginner game 1, minus lord knuckle
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
tyler90az
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12/19/2011 3:15:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/19/2011 3:13:43 PM, tyler90az wrote:
(for instance, Tyler never validated his suspicions etc, etc).

I actually did....

Also to say I suck is bs... I knew who all the mafia were in beginner game 1, minus lord knuckle

In the last game Spinko was completely absent when I was trying to defend him...
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
royalpaladin
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12/19/2011 3:25:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/19/2011 3:13:43 PM, tyler90az wrote:
(for instance, Tyler never validated his suspicions etc, etc).

I actually did....

Also to say I suck is bs... I knew who all the mafia were in beginner game 1, minus lord knuckle

I think that you should follow the Beginner game before you make judgment calls.
tyler90az
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12/19/2011 3:26:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/19/2011 3:25:07 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 12/19/2011 3:13:43 PM, tyler90az wrote:
(for instance, Tyler never validated his suspicions etc, etc).

I actually did....

Also to say I suck is bs... I knew who all the mafia were in beginner game 1, minus lord knuckle

I think that you should follow the Beginner game before you make judgment calls.

We shall see, friend.
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
caveat
Posts: 2,137
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12/19/2011 3:29:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/19/2011 3:13:43 PM, tyler90az wrote:
(for instance, Tyler never validated his suspicions etc, etc).

I actually did....

Also to say I suck is bs... I knew who all the mafia were in beginner game 1, minus lord knuckle

I assume you don't mean the 4.1 game since you accused Miller and Doc in DP1 as a Vanilla :P

Anyway, a game like Mafia is impossible to regulate in terms of skill in this fashion by virtue of it being a team-oriented, not to mention partly anonymous, game. If a rule is ever implemented, it will obviously not apply and function as intended for all new players. I think it should be up to the mods to judge if somebody will be detrimental to the other players' game experience by looking at their past games (1-2?) and the collaborated opinion of other experienced players.
There is an art, it says, or rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. " Clearly, it is this second part, the missing, which presents the difficulties.
tyler90az
Posts: 971
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12/19/2011 3:31:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I would prefer to play, obviously. However, it does not matter to me, I trust the experienced players call.
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
tyler90az
Posts: 971
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12/19/2011 3:34:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/19/2011 3:31:38 PM, tyler90az wrote:
I would prefer to play, obviously. However, it does not matter to me, I trust the experienced players call.

Paradox lol
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama