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Miscellaneous Mafia - END GAME

Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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12/19/2011 11:26:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Winners --> TOWN!!!

I suppose the mafia won 2nd place, Ore_Ele won 3rd, Spinko won 4th and drafterman came in last...

== Remaining Living Players ==

01. medic0506 -- Town, Oracle (would reveal a chosen target's role upon death)
02. Thaddeus -- Town, Tracker
03. tvellalott 2 -- Town, Bodyguard (50/50 chance of dying in target's place or killing attacker)
04. nonentity -- Town, Apprentice (chose a np1 target; copied their role upon their death)
05. Lickdafoot 2 -- Bartender (could only RB non-townies)
07. DetectableNinja -- Town, Virgin (if lynched, nobody could be killed during the NP)
08. Wierdman -- Town, Doctor
09. drafterman 2 -- Third Party, Martyr (would win if killed by the mafia only)
10. F-16 (2) -- Town, One Shot Forensic Investigator

== Graveyard ==

Logic_On_Rails: You are the Dodger. You can avoid one player's night action every night; however, you can only select a player once per game. You win with the mafia.

Spritle 1: Town, Cop
Lickdafoot 1: Town, Messenger
headphonegut: Town, Politician
CapLlock: Mafia, Stalker
Andromeda_Z: Town, Mason
Raisor: Town, Suicide Bomber
Viper-King: Mafia, Godfather
drafterman 1: Town, Sheriff
tvellalott 1: Town, Lie Detector
bluesteel: Mafia, Lookout
F-16 1: Town, Role Keeper
Partam: Town, Governor
Cobo: Mafia, Lawyer
Ore_Ele: Third Party, PGO/Survivor
socialpinko: Third Party, Serial Killer

== Explanation ==

The last remaining mafioso targeted Thaddeus who was protected by the Bodyguard. The Bodyguard killed the attacker, thereby ending the game.

== Mod Clarifications ==

I need to acknowledge and apologize for 2 things:

1) I made two modding mistakes (again, caused by lack of attention to detail which is usually not a problem for me). I will say though that I don't think any of these mistakes affected the outcome of the game at all. First, bluesteel was NOT supposed to be able to watch medic the night Lickdafoot role blocked him. I realized this and told him he was NOT allowed to post the results into the DP to confirm himself. However, bluesteel missed this message (apparently) and proceeded to post the results I gave him. This caused some confusion and led LDF to believe she was RB, even though the mafia didn't have a role blocker.

2) Medic did in fact visit the PGO and therefore should have been killed. I forgot that I had said all of his targets would count as visits.

== Mod Comments ==

The mafia may complain that they did not have enough members (5/25). However, the standard mafia to townie ratio is anywhere between 1/3 and 1/6 of players. I included 1/5 of players in the mafia, which falls right in the middle of traditional parameters. If anything I would have only given them 1 more player, and I probably should have (a role blocker). I think that would have balanced out the game perfectly.

The logic I used was three-fold. First, I expected the PGO to help the mafia kill a lot of people. In my LOST game, the PGO was also the Survivor (tvellalott). This made sense with the actual character of the theme for that game, but I liked it a lot as did TV (he mentioned it as a favorite role in one of the threads). After all, it's usually far too hard for the Survivor to win, so I thought this was a way to help out as it would kill any investigative role that tried to target them since the Survivor is a 3P role. I didn't expect Ore_Ele to out himself as the PGO early on, figuring tvellalott would call him out on probably being a 3P Survivor (as he had that role in one of my previous games). I thought Ore_Ele would choose to stay undar the radar - at least for a little while - helping to knock some people out of the game.

As for how Ore_Ele was killed (he asked me specifically in his role PM), he was killed by Logic who was the Mafia Dodger. When he targeted Ore_Ele, he also Dodged him meaning the PGO's role did not affect him. Thus he was able to kill Ore_Ele without dying.

Second, I thought Spinko would claim Vigilante. This would allow him to target people for kills and get away with it (so long as he could pull off pretending to be pro-town) which I also thought would help the mafia. Nonetheless, the SK inadvertently helps the mafia regardless. Unfortunately Spinko had bad luck with some of his early targets, so a few of his NK's didn't go through.

Finally, I gave the townies a lot of non-proveable roles. For instance, the Oracle, Virgin, Role Keeper, Lie Detector, Apprentice, Bartender and FI could not technically prove their roles, meaning the town would have just had to trust them. The Messenger could not prove her affiliation. The Governor was not necessarily a townie role (even though everybody accepted it as such). Many of these roles are NOT roles that are often used in the games on DDO, so I expected more mislynches.

The mafia Role Keeper also randomly discovered Homo_Sacer (drafterman 2's) role early on, which was convenient because they prevented that 3P Martyr role from getting the win. There was no way he could win once all the mafia were dead. Also, the FI could have pinned someone's death on the SK or PGO which I also thought would help the mafia.

The inactivity in this game was really annoying. I had to rely on a lot of replacements. To be honest, I chose to make the Bodyguard kill the attacker (the last mafioso) even though the RNG for the 50/50 shot said TV should have died in the target's place. However, with only 1 mafia left and given the remaining roles, I didn't think they really had a shot to win, so I ended the game early... However, the main factor for my decision (because I really wanted to see how the game would play out actually) was that I needed a replacement for DNinja and couldn't really find one. Also, so many other games are going on ATM and I feel interest in this game just died out.

== Other ==

Now does anyone have any questions? I have the records of all the Night Actions if anybody wants to see them. I'm not sure if there is any interest though, but I will post them if there are any comments or concerns. To Spinko -- On NP1 you targeted bluesteel who was protected by the Doctor. On NP2 you targeted Raisor who also happened to be protected by the Doc. The mafia happened to target Raisor as well on that same night.
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F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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12/19/2011 11:34:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The mafia were somewhat underpowered. We also had some really cool roles as town. I am curious though, did TV protect me the night I got killed? How did it not affect TV?
Lickdafoot
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12/19/2011 11:41:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
ha! i targetted non-town 4 out of 6 times (and i knew f-16 wasn't maf when i targetted him) Spinko, bluesteel, f-16, thaddeus, spinko, logic

Danielle, i targetted logic that last night but you gave him his kill anyway.

I can't blame you though as it gave us the win!!

How is that for sucky town instincts, baby!!

Honestly, interest didn't die out for me. I think with the large amount of players, there were just a lot of inactives in the group.

Dani really puts together some great games, seriously!
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Logic_on_rails
Posts: 2,445
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12/19/2011 11:44:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Well that was lame ... I got killed despite the RNG going in my favour.

Okay, Mafia had no chance of winning at the end, but I had a pretty cool insane cop claim worked out. By lynching a 3rd party (knew Drafterman's role) , I thought I could convince you of my 'role' as one can't normally bus a 3rd party player.

I think a roleblocker would have made things fairer. My main problem was who was in the Mafia. I mean, Viper and Capslock put up absolutely no resistance to their lynches, and Cobo tried, but wasn't very convincing. Essentially, we lost 3/5 of the Mafia very, very easily. That, plus Blue being caught out by F-16 sunk us.

My main question is this - what happened when TV AND Cobo visited F-16? Cobo tried killing him, TV was bodyguard. However, TV didn't die or kill the attacker. I didn't get this.

Overall though the town definitely deserved to win. There was some sharp play by town, even if they had an easy time smashing through the Mafia. I think checking for watcher was definitely a smart move by F-16. Good game.
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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12/19/2011 11:44:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Also, I was right about Logic and Bluesteel being mafia. Not so right about TV though. I still think there was something off with that. TV should either have died or killed Cobo.
Logic_on_rails
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12/19/2011 11:47:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/19/2011 11:44:22 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
Also, I was right about Logic and Bluesteel being mafia. Not so right about TV though. I still think there was something off with that. TV should either have died or killed Cobo.

You know, I thought I was playing pretty pro-town near the end actually. Sure the first 4DPs or so I wasn't, but oh well. My insane cop claim when I busted Drafterman might have made you think though. You'd have had a tougher time proving my guilt than with Blue where you knew his role didn't exist. I think DP 8 would have been some fun...
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
Danielle
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12/19/2011 11:51:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/19/2011 11:34:29 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
The mafia were somewhat underpowered. We also had some really cool roles as town. I am curious though, did TV protect me the night I got killed? How did it not affect TV?

It's possible the mafia was under-powered, but only slightly. The only thing I would have done differently is give them a role blocker, OR make it so the Bartender didn't only role block non-townies (as I realized that was sort of an additional investigative ability).

The night you got killed, TV did protect you. The mafia chose Cobo to carry out the kill, but the Doctor protected Cobo that night. So, while Cobo was supposed to die, the Doctor protected him meaning his kill went through.
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Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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12/19/2011 11:54:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Logic, I agree that you had some crappy teammates. However, more experienced players are usually early targets, so I thought some of the n00bs may have flown under the radar. I also figured bluesteel would come up with some awesome strategy. Admittedly the inactivity of your teammates would have made this pretty useless.

And LDF is right about her role not affecting mafia's night kills - just their actions. I kinda regret not giving Logic the chance to see his plan out to the end, but I honestly figured interest in this game had just died out. Since the mafia didn't have a real shot at winning, I ended it, and I do apologize but I think everything would have panned out the same.
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tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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12/19/2011 11:56:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/19/2011 11:51:23 PM, Danielle wrote:
The night you got killed, TV did protect you. The mafia chose Cobo to carry out the kill, but the Doctor protected Cobo that night. So, while Cobo was supposed to die, the Doctor protected him meaning his kill went through.

weirdman wins "WORST DOCTOR OF ALL TIME" award. :P
GG town. I didn't even think of that actually.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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12/19/2011 11:57:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I really think it was a mistake for me to go after Logic in DP7 despite him being mafia. Had I pushed for his role-claim and gotten him lynched, Spinko would have gotten first place.
Danielle
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12/20/2011 12:00:06 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/19/2011 11:56:06 PM, tvellalott wrote:
weirdman wins "WORST DOCTOR OF ALL TIME" award. :P
GG town. I didn't even think of that actually.

He really is actually lol. But he did protect bluesteel from the SK on np1 and Raisor from the SK and mafia on np2. After that, his targets were off. He's new though so did okay, though I wish he participated more in the dp.
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F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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12/20/2011 12:05:37 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
You know, the funny thing is that I was actually sure that TV was innocent once DP7 ended. I figured that if he really was at the scene of the crime, he couldn't be mafia because if Cobo killed me, why would another mafia also visit me? Frame? Roleblock? It didn't make sense. I thought TV was the naive bodyguard and was actually prepared to argue in favor of TV. Hard to believe but it becomes obvious in hindsight. There was really no way TV could have been mafia.
tvellalott
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12/20/2011 12:06:57 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/20/2011 12:05:37 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
You know, the funny thing is that I was actually sure that TV was innocent once DP7 ended. I figured that if he really was at the scene of the crime, he couldn't be mafia because if Cobo killed me, why would another mafia also visit me? Frame? Roleblock? It didn't make sense. I thought TV was the naive bodyguard and was actually prepared to argue in favor of TV. Hard to believe but it becomes obvious in hindsight. There was really no way TV could have been mafia.

A likely story. :P
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
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6 years of DDO: http://www.debate.org...
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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12/20/2011 12:08:31 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/20/2011 12:06:57 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 12/20/2011 12:05:37 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
You know, the funny thing is that I was actually sure that TV was innocent once DP7 ended. I figured that if he really was at the scene of the crime, he couldn't be mafia because if Cobo killed me, why would another mafia also visit me? Frame? Roleblock? It didn't make sense. I thought TV was the naive bodyguard and was actually prepared to argue in favor of TV. Hard to believe but it becomes obvious in hindsight. There was really no way TV could have been mafia.

A likely story. :P

You won't believe me but I only figured it out AFTER the DP ended. There was no logical reason for you to visit me if you were mafia. I really did know you were not mafia at that point. You probably won't believe me but w/e.
tvellalott
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12/20/2011 12:10:59 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/20/2011 12:08:31 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
You won't believe me but I only figured it out AFTER the DP ended. There was no logical reason for you to visit me if you were mafia. I really did know you were not mafia at that point. You probably won't believe me but w/e.

That's cool. :P
All I remember is saying repeatedly "Why aren't lynching TV? We need to lynch TV right now. For god sake, TV needs to die". :D :D :D :D :D
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
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6 years of DDO: http://www.debate.org...
nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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12/20/2011 12:15:54 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I want to apologize to the mafia and Danielle for revealing publicly that caplock had PM'd me. I realized in hindsight I should've run it by Danielle first. The only reason I hadn't told her right away was that I figured he was a newb and didn't want to get him mod killed over a stupid mistake. I never imagined it would benefit me in any way. Then after I posted it I was like UGHHH.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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12/20/2011 12:16:14 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/20/2011 12:10:59 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 12/20/2011 12:08:31 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
You won't believe me but I only figured it out AFTER the DP ended. There was no logical reason for you to visit me if you were mafia. I really did know you were not mafia at that point. You probably won't believe me but w/e.

That's cool. :P
All I remember is saying repeatedly "Why aren't lynching TV? We need to lynch TV right now. For god sake, TV needs to die". :D :D :D :D :D

I was completely off. But in all fairness TV, Non_Entity did say that you were alone at the scene of the crime. After she clarified that it was both you AND Cobo, I backtracked and went after Logic instead.
Lickdafoot
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12/20/2011 1:03:03 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/20/2011 12:16:14 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 12/20/2011 12:10:59 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 12/20/2011 12:08:31 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
You won't believe me but I only figured it out AFTER the DP ended. There was no logical reason for you to visit me if you were mafia. I really did know you were not mafia at that point. You probably won't believe me but w/e.

That's cool. :P
All I remember is saying repeatedly "Why aren't lynching TV? We need to lynch TV right now. For god sake, TV needs to die". :D :D :D :D :D

I was completely off. But in all fairness TV, Non_Entity did say that you were alone at the scene of the crime. After she clarified that it was both you AND Cobo, I backtracked and went after Logic instead.

ahhhh, i dont even remember her saying that at all. that had me confused :\

i guess i got offline, and then the dp was over, so i just checked the last post and saw spinko was lynched.

Also, I had a lot of fun playing with ore_ele this game. He's a great player and i'd like him on my team more often :P
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F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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12/20/2011 1:06:36 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Ore_Ele had me completely. He was playing SO pro-town, I would have been suspicious of anyone who even suspected him. Mafia helped the town by killing him though. Ore_Ele, you should play a lot more games. You are so much fun to play with.
Danielle
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12/20/2011 6:00:10 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/20/2011 5:50:20 AM, drafterman wrote:
Ah. So I was pretty much doomed to lose as Martyr. Well, I'm claiming town win anyway.

True.
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Danielle
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12/20/2011 6:19:54 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/20/2011 12:03:13 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
Danielle, can you give us your feedback on the game? It always helps hearing what the more experienced players have to say.

There's not much to say really. There was nothing in particular that stood out as drastically good or bad. I thought everyone played pretty well, except having so many n00bs proved ANNOYING. The only reason I let them play is because I had figured that all of them played before (at least in the Beginner games). However every single one of them was a disappointment - either completely inactive or completely retarded (or both). I was kinda hoping for the mafia's sake that the n00bs would just go under the radar (and for the most part they did).

The only reason CapLlock got called out was because of what nonentity said. She confirmed a lot of probable townies that way (I felt bad for the mafia). I wanted to mod kill her so badly, because usually before EVERY single game as part of the rules I state that any PM that does not include the mod is strictly forbidden and needs to be reported to the mod asap. However, the fact that she admitted it at all was pretty big of her, though I'm not sure why she said it in the dp first. I totally believe it was an honest mistake and I'm not mad at all whatsoever about it. If anything, I'm mad at myself for not c/p the rules I usually do and making them up on the spot cuz I was lazy. Maybe if I had said that clearly, it wouldn't have happened on either of their parts. It was just annoying and I'm mostly pretty pissed at CapLlock. Considering he was mafia, WHY NOT JUST ASK HIS TEAMMATES IN THE THREAD (or the mod) any questions he may have had? Again, I learned my lesson regarding n00bs. I think M.Torres, the mod in the other game, is learning the same thing (after a mafioso c/p his real role into the dp). They should be forced to stick to Beginner games IMO, but I guess it's up to the mod. Lesson learned.

I do feel bad about not giving the mafia a role blocker; I think the game would have been a ton more compelling if that were the case. I also wish there weren't so many n00bs so that I didn't have to keep looking for replacements. Other than that, everyone played pretty well and I have no major complaints or comments. As I said, I thought the SK would claim Vig and that the PGO would keep quiet. It's always interesting to see people's particular strategies though :)
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bluesteel
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12/20/2011 9:01:11 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
@danielle

Don't feel bad about caplock. I don't know why, but this seems to be a big problem with the newest set of n00bs (even though I did put that rule in the first DP).

I didn't participate beyond my death so I dunno what happened, but I just wanna say that I've never felt like I got reamed harder than this game (as in beaten so badly by either side). It kind of felt like every strategy I tried to take, town had us completely beat. For example, one NP, I had to decide between targeting tv or F-16. Tv had said he was going to investigate me. F-16 also checked my most valid fake claim (watcher). There was no good choice. I *also* said in our mafia PM that there couldn't be a doctor or town was way overpowered. Apparently I was wrong: there was a doctor.

danielle, I appreciate that you think I can come up with a crazy strategy every game, but it's harder in a big game when there is a role keeper who can check all our fake claims and townies all lie. I don't really blame you - town has gotten a lot better recently - they lie well. I am a little surprised though that you didn't see Ore_Ele's claim coming. Making him an estranged mafioso would have been more fair to us. Anyway, having to claim when like 15 people haven't doesn't leave many fake claims. Watcher was an obvious one.

Also, yeah, two of our teammates didn't help. I don't mind playing mafia with good n00bs, but viper has a lot of work to do still to learn the ropes and caplock was mostly inactive.

So I don't blame you entirely, but we started with 5 players. A town forensic investigator basically makes it 4. We got unlucky with the SK, but we could just have easily lost members (like me).

If a game still feels super unbalanced after you get lucky and kill the cop, that's not good.

Thanks wierdman. Boo on spinko.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
Ore_Ele
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12/20/2011 9:02:10 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I guess I'll take it as a compliment that the mafia targeted me, even though there were more powerful roles out there. Though totally miffed that they actually did.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
bluesteel
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12/20/2011 9:04:32 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Also, medic's role also ensured that one of our fake claims could be outed. And the other role ensuring no mafia NK was also pretty powerful. It's a *free night* of investigations. With no RBer, that ensures we couldn't silence anyone.

I don't seen any scenario where we won this game. Props to F-16 for completely seeing through my fake claim. But yeah, given the skill level of current players, it was unpleasant being mafia in this game, to say the least.

I'll post the mafia PM in a sec. You'll see that I thought that there was either a cult or a second mafia and no doctor due to game balance issues.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)