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Mafia Theory Discussion-Two New Roles

royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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1/21/2012 8:33:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
These roles exist on epicmafia, and I am considering adopting them for DDO. What do you guys think?

1. Voodoo Lady-Each night, you may select one person to curse, and pick one word that he or she may not say. If that person says that word, he or she dies. (I am thinking about adding restrictions: the words must be more than three letters long and cannot be 'lynch', 'mafia', 'mafioso', etc. I am also thinking about forcing the VL to pick a player instead of a random word. So, if I cursed socialpinko with Mestari's name, he would die if he mentioned "Mestari" even once.) The curse wears off during the following Night Phase. You win with the mafia.

2. Baker-Each night, you may select two people to give bread to. If you are killed, the famine will strike the town, and any players (town and mafia) who do not have bread will be entered into a lottery each DP. At the beginning of the DP, one player who does not have bread will randomly die.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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1/21/2012 8:59:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/21/2012 8:33:02 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
These roles exist on epicmafia, and I am considering adopting them for DDO. What do you guys think?

1. Voodoo Lady-Each night, you may select one person to curse, and pick one word that he or she may not say. If that person says that word, he or she dies. (I am thinking about adding restrictions: the words must be more than three letters long and cannot be 'lynch', 'mafia', 'mafioso', etc. I am also thinking about forcing the VL to pick a player instead of a random word. So, if I cursed socialpinko with Mestari's name, he would die if he mentioned "Mestari" even once.) The curse wears off during the following Night Phase. You win with the mafia.

2. Baker-Each night, you may select two people to give bread to. If you are killed, the famine will strike the town, and any players (town and mafia) who do not have bread will be entered into a lottery each DP. At the beginning of the DP, one player who does not have bread will randomly die.

I've actually gone throw the list of roles on Epic mafia and considered how they may be applied here. Obviously some are impossible (Fiddler, Disguiser, Ventriloquist).

I'm actually working on some setups to use those roles. Just remember, though, Epic mafia is almost always Open set-ups. People know that the roles are in the game. Even with closed set-ups, you still know the pool of roles that a person could potentially be.

In the strictly closed set-up environment of Mafia here at DDO, some of those roles may be overpowered. Consider the Jester/Fool. It's generally discouraged here, as being too easy to win. Yet it is rather difficult to win as Fool in Epic, because people are always wary of it.

Also, games on Epic are shorter and smaller than here on DDO. With a baker, when they die, it doesn't have much an effect as the game is probably close to being over anyway; it may shorten a game by half to a whole turn. I like your modification of it being a lottery, but I'd probably make it 2 per day.
UnStupendousMan
Posts: 3,475
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1/21/2012 9:02:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/21/2012 8:33:02 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
These roles exist on epicmafia, and I am considering adopting them for DDO. What do you guys think?

1. Voodoo Lady-Each night, you may select one person to curse, and pick one word that he or she may not say. If that person says that word, he or she dies. (I am thinking about adding restrictions: the words must be more than three letters long and cannot be 'lynch', 'mafia', 'mafioso', etc. I am also thinking about forcing the VL to pick a player instead of a random word. So, if I cursed socialpinko with Mestari's name, he would die if he mentioned "Mestari" even once.) The curse wears off during the following Night Phase. You win with the mafia.

May work. But I'd change it to you become a jester for a DP.

2. Baker-Each night, you may select two people to give bread to. If you are killed, the famine will strike the town, and any players (town and mafia) who do not have bread will be entered into a lottery each DP. At the beginning of the DP, one player who does not have bread will randomly die.

Way too complicated and way too powerful.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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1/21/2012 9:05:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/21/2012 8:59:29 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 1/21/2012 8:33:02 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
These roles exist on epicmafia, and I am considering adopting them for DDO. What do you guys think?

1. Voodoo Lady-Each night, you may select one person to curse, and pick one word that he or she may not say. If that person says that word, he or she dies. (I am thinking about adding restrictions: the words must be more than three letters long and cannot be 'lynch', 'mafia', 'mafioso', etc. I am also thinking about forcing the VL to pick a player instead of a random word. So, if I cursed socialpinko with Mestari's name, he would die if he mentioned "Mestari" even once.) The curse wears off during the following Night Phase. You win with the mafia.

2. Baker-Each night, you may select two people to give bread to. If you are killed, the famine will strike the town, and any players (town and mafia) who do not have bread will be entered into a lottery each DP. At the beginning of the DP, one player who does not have bread will randomly die.

I've actually gone throw the list of roles on Epic mafia and considered how they may be applied here. Obviously some are impossible (Fiddler, Disguiser, Ventriloquist).

I'm actually working on some setups to use those roles. Just remember, though, Epic mafia is almost always Open set-ups. People know that the roles are in the game. Even with closed set-ups, you still know the pool of roles that a person could potentially be.

In the strictly closed set-up environment of Mafia here at DDO, some of those roles may be overpowered. Consider the Jester/Fool. It's generally discouraged here, as being too easy to win. Yet it is rather difficult to win as Fool in Epic, because people are always wary of it.

Also, games on Epic are shorter and smaller than here on DDO. With a baker, when they die, it doesn't have much an effect as the game is probably close to being over anyway; it may shorten a game by half to a whole turn. I like your modification of it being a lottery, but I'd probably make it 2 per day.

Actually, I think that killing two people with it is a pretty good idea. Do you have any thoughts on the Voodoo lady?
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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1/21/2012 9:05:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/21/2012 9:02:58 PM, UnStupendousMan wrote:
At 1/21/2012 8:33:02 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
These roles exist on epicmafia, and I am considering adopting them for DDO. What do you guys think?

1. Voodoo Lady-Each night, you may select one person to curse, and pick one word that he or she may not say. If that person says that word, he or she dies. (I am thinking about adding restrictions: the words must be more than three letters long and cannot be 'lynch', 'mafia', 'mafioso', etc. I am also thinking about forcing the VL to pick a player instead of a random word. So, if I cursed socialpinko with Mestari's name, he would die if he mentioned "Mestari" even once.) The curse wears off during the following Night Phase. You win with the mafia.

May work. But I'd change it to you become a jester for a DP.

But that just means that they WANT to be lynched . . . I am not sure that this is a good idea.
2. Baker-Each night, you may select two people to give bread to. If you are killed, the famine will strike the town, and any players (town and mafia) who do not have bread will be entered into a lottery each DP. At the beginning of the DP, one player who does not have bread will randomly die.

Way too complicated and way too powerful.

What do you mean?
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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1/21/2012 9:14:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/21/2012 8:59:29 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 1/21/2012 8:33:02 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
These roles exist on epicmafia, and I am considering adopting them for DDO. What do you guys think?

1. Voodoo Lady-Each night, you may select one person to curse, and pick one word that he or she may not say. If that person says that word, he or she dies. (I am thinking about adding restrictions: the words must be more than three letters long and cannot be 'lynch', 'mafia', 'mafioso', etc. I am also thinking about forcing the VL to pick a player instead of a random word. So, if I cursed socialpinko with Mestari's name, he would die if he mentioned "Mestari" even once.) The curse wears off during the following Night Phase. You win with the mafia.

2. Baker-Each night, you may select two people to give bread to. If you are killed, the famine will strike the town, and any players (town and mafia) who do not have bread will be entered into a lottery each DP. At the beginning of the DP, one player who does not have bread will randomly die.

I've actually gone throw the list of roles on Epic mafia and considered how they may be applied here. Obviously some are impossible (Fiddler, Disguiser, Ventriloquist).

I'm actually working on some setups to use those roles. Just remember, though, Epic mafia is almost always Open set-ups. People know that the roles are in the game. Even with closed set-ups, you still know the pool of roles that a person could potentially be.

In the strictly closed set-up environment of Mafia here at DDO, some of those roles may be overpowered. Consider the Jester/Fool. It's generally discouraged here, as being too easy to win. Yet it is rather difficult to win as Fool in Epic, because people are always wary of it.

Also, games on Epic are shorter and smaller than here on DDO. With a baker, when they die, it doesn't have much an effect as the game is probably close to being over anyway; it may shorten a game by half to a whole turn. I like your modification of it being a lottery, but I'd probably make it 2 per day.

Ventriloquist was used in the Inheritance game.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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1/21/2012 9:19:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/21/2012 9:14:18 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 1/21/2012 8:59:29 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 1/21/2012 8:33:02 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
These roles exist on epicmafia, and I am considering adopting them for DDO. What do you guys think?

1. Voodoo Lady-Each night, you may select one person to curse, and pick one word that he or she may not say. If that person says that word, he or she dies. (I am thinking about adding restrictions: the words must be more than three letters long and cannot be 'lynch', 'mafia', 'mafioso', etc. I am also thinking about forcing the VL to pick a player instead of a random word. So, if I cursed socialpinko with Mestari's name, he would die if he mentioned "Mestari" even once.) The curse wears off during the following Night Phase. You win with the mafia.

2. Baker-Each night, you may select two people to give bread to. If you are killed, the famine will strike the town, and any players (town and mafia) who do not have bread will be entered into a lottery each DP. At the beginning of the DP, one player who does not have bread will randomly die.

I've actually gone throw the list of roles on Epic mafia and considered how they may be applied here. Obviously some are impossible (Fiddler, Disguiser, Ventriloquist).

I'm actually working on some setups to use those roles. Just remember, though, Epic mafia is almost always Open set-ups. People know that the roles are in the game. Even with closed set-ups, you still know the pool of roles that a person could potentially be.

In the strictly closed set-up environment of Mafia here at DDO, some of those roles may be overpowered. Consider the Jester/Fool. It's generally discouraged here, as being too easy to win. Yet it is rather difficult to win as Fool in Epic, because people are always wary of it.

Also, games on Epic are shorter and smaller than here on DDO. With a baker, when they die, it doesn't have much an effect as the game is probably close to being over anyway; it may shorten a game by half to a whole turn. I like your modification of it being a lottery, but I'd probably make it 2 per day.

Ventriloquist was used in the Inheritance game.

Sort of. In Epic, the target of the Vent doesn't know he was vented except through deduction.

As far as the Voodoo. I'd play it like it's played in Epic:

Choose a target.
Choose a word greater than 3 letters.

If target says the word during the next day phase, they die.

I think it'd be a lot less effective here though. The lingo of epic is predictable (dat doc, dat veg, inno, mylo, lylo, etc.). Also, death couldn't be immediate here. The mod has to recognize that the word was said, THEN kill the person off. The person could say a lot between the time they say the word and are finally killed.
blackhawk1331
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1/21/2012 10:44:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/21/2012 9:14:18 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 1/21/2012 8:59:29 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 1/21/2012 8:33:02 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
These roles exist on epicmafia, and I am considering adopting them for DDO. What do you guys think?

1. Voodoo Lady-Each night, you may select one person to curse, and pick one word that he or she may not say. If that person says that word, he or she dies. (I am thinking about adding restrictions: the words must be more than three letters long and cannot be 'lynch', 'mafia', 'mafioso', etc. I am also thinking about forcing the VL to pick a player instead of a random word. So, if I cursed socialpinko with Mestari's name, he would die if he mentioned "Mestari" even once.) The curse wears off during the following Night Phase. You win with the mafia.

2. Baker-Each night, you may select two people to give bread to. If you are killed, the famine will strike the town, and any players (town and mafia) who do not have bread will be entered into a lottery each DP. At the beginning of the DP, one player who does not have bread will randomly die.

I've actually gone throw the list of roles on Epic mafia and considered how they may be applied here. Obviously some are impossible (Fiddler, Disguiser, Ventriloquist).

I'm actually working on some setups to use those roles. Just remember, though, Epic mafia is almost always Open set-ups. People know that the roles are in the game. Even with closed set-ups, you still know the pool of roles that a person could potentially be.

In the strictly closed set-up environment of Mafia here at DDO, some of those roles may be overpowered. Consider the Jester/Fool. It's generally discouraged here, as being too easy to win. Yet it is rather difficult to win as Fool in Epic, because people are always wary of it.

Also, games on Epic are shorter and smaller than here on DDO. With a baker, when they die, it doesn't have much an effect as the game is probably close to being over anyway; it may shorten a game by half to a whole turn. I like your modification of it being a lottery, but I'd probably make it 2 per day.

Ventriloquist was used in the Inheritance game.

Lol. I've never heard of it. I went based off of something Galbatorix did in the book and something I did in the Star Trek game.
Because you said it was a waste, numb nuts. - Drafter

So fvck you. :) - TV

Use prima facie correctly or not at all. - Noumena
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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1/21/2012 11:16:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/21/2012 8:33:02 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
These roles exist on epicmafia, and I am considering adopting them for DDO. What do you guys think?

1. Voodoo Lady-Each night, you may select one person to curse, and pick one word that he or she may not say. If that person says that word, he or she dies. (I am thinking about adding restrictions: the words must be more than three letters long and cannot be 'lynch', 'mafia', 'mafioso', etc. I am also thinking about forcing the VL to pick a player instead of a random word. So, if I cursed socialpinko with Mestari's name, he would die if he mentioned "Mestari" even once.) The curse wears off during the following Night Phase. You win with the mafia.

Not sure I like this one, it's akin to giving the mafia a part-time vig. Unless the word is so obscure as to make the role useless, it seems to overpower the mafia. I especially don't like it if you make it where the target can't mention a certain player's name, that's very unfair in my opinion. It would be hard to balance too, because you don't really know how many people will be killed by the VL, thus can't balance accordingly. Maybe if a different penalty was assigned, such as being silenced for the next dp, it wouldn't be bad but giving the mafia another killing role in addition to their night kill is too much, I think.

2. Baker-Each night, you may select two people to give bread to. If you are killed, the famine will strike the town, and any players (town and mafia) who do not have bread will be entered into a lottery each DP. At the beginning of the DP, one player who does not have bread will randomly die.

This may not be bad but I see it as more of a third-party role. I don't like the idea of a townie that is forced to kill random people as it will more than likely be another townie that they kill. I could foresee balance problems with this one too as someone would die each dp at their hands. How would you accomodate for that??
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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1/21/2012 11:19:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/21/2012 11:16:51 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 1/21/2012 8:33:02 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
These roles exist on epicmafia, and I am considering adopting them for DDO. What do you guys think?

1. Voodoo Lady-Each night, you may select one person to curse, and pick one word that he or she may not say. If that person says that word, he or she dies. (I am thinking about adding restrictions: the words must be more than three letters long and cannot be 'lynch', 'mafia', 'mafioso', etc. I am also thinking about forcing the VL to pick a player instead of a random word. So, if I cursed socialpinko with Mestari's name, he would die if he mentioned "Mestari" even once.) The curse wears off during the following Night Phase. You win with the mafia.

Not sure I like this one, it's akin to giving the mafia a part-time vig. Unless the word is so obscure as to make the role useless, it seems to overpower the mafia. I especially don't like it if you make it where the target can't mention a certain player's name, that's very unfair in my opinion. It would be hard to balance too, because you don't really know how many people will be killed by the VL, thus can't balance accordingly. Maybe if a different penalty was assigned, such as being silenced for the next dp, it wouldn't be bad but giving the mafia another killing role in addition to their night kill is too much, I think.

I like the silencing idea, actually.
2. Baker-Each night, you may select two people to give bread to. If you are killed, the famine will strike the town, and any players (town and mafia) who do not have bread will be entered into a lottery each DP. At the beginning of the DP, one player who does not have bread will randomly die.

This may not be bad but I see it as more of a third-party role. I don't like the idea of a townie that is forced to kill random people as it will more than likely be another townie that they kill. I could foresee balance problems with this one too as someone would die each dp at their hands. How would you accomodate for that??

I think that you are misinterpreting the role. He does not kill anyone; he simply provides people with bread. When he dies, people who do not have bread are randomly killed at the start of each DP. This is a role that NOBODY will want killed.
medic0506
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1/21/2012 11:34:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/21/2012 8:33:02 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
2. Baker-Each night, you may select two people to give bread to. If you are killed, the famine will strike the town, and any players (town and mafia) who do not have bread will be entered into a lottery each DP. At the beginning of the DP, one player who does not have bread will randomly die.

Actually, I think this would be a great adaptation to our current survivor role, which I hate. I don't like roles where you have to accomplish an objective, but are given no abilities to help you accomplish said objective. Giving the survivor the ability to help themself would be a welcome addition, and make it more fun to play that role. As it stands now, the survivor role sucks balls.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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1/21/2012 11:49:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/21/2012 11:19:26 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 1/21/2012 11:16:51 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 1/21/2012 8:33:02 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
These roles exist on epicmafia, and I am considering adopting them for DDO. What do you guys think?

1. Voodoo Lady-Each night, you may select one person to curse, and pick one word that he or she may not say. If that person says that word, he or she dies. (I am thinking about adding restrictions: the words must be more than three letters long and cannot be 'lynch', 'mafia', 'mafioso', etc. I am also thinking about forcing the VL to pick a player instead of a random word. So, if I cursed socialpinko with Mestari's name, he would die if he mentioned "Mestari" even once.) The curse wears off during the following Night Phase. You win with the mafia.

Not sure I like this one, it's akin to giving the mafia a part-time vig. Unless the word is so obscure as to make the role useless, it seems to overpower the mafia. I especially don't like it if you make it where the target can't mention a certain player's name, that's very unfair in my opinion. It would be hard to balance too, because you don't really know how many people will be killed by the VL, thus can't balance accordingly. Maybe if a different penalty was assigned, such as being silenced for the next dp, it wouldn't be bad but giving the mafia another killing role in addition to their night kill is too much, I think.

I like the silencing idea, actually.
2. Baker-Each night, you may select two people to give bread to. If you are killed, the famine will strike the town, and any players (town and mafia) who do not have bread will be entered into a lottery each DP. At the beginning of the DP, one player who does not have bread will randomly die.

This may not be bad but I see it as more of a third-party role. I don't like the idea of a townie that is forced to kill random people as it will more than likely be another townie that they kill. I could foresee balance problems with this one too as someone would die each dp at their hands. How would you accomodate for that??

I think that you are misinterpreting the role. He does not kill anyone; he simply provides people with bread. When he dies, people who do not have bread are randomly killed at the start of each DP. This is a role that NOBODY will want killed.

My bad, I overlooked the "If you are killed" part. True, no one will want to kill that role, thus the baker would have to claim immediately at the beginning of the game, kinda like miller. I'm not sure if the mafia will target that role or not, because the odds are greater that the random person will be a townie, especially if one or more mafioso have bread. It'll also become a good fake claim for mafia if used very often. I don't know, it's worth a shot to see how it works out in an actual game.

I still like my idea of adapting the survivor role though that can be accomplished any number of ways without taking the baker role.
BlackVoid
Posts: 9,170
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1/22/2012 1:39:51 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/21/2012 11:34:03 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 1/21/2012 8:33:02 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
2. Baker-Each night, you may select two people to give bread to. If you are killed, the famine will strike the town, and any players (town and mafia) who do not have bread will be entered into a lottery each DP. At the beginning of the DP, one player who does not have bread will randomly die.

Actually, I think this would be a great adaptation to our current survivor role, which I hate. I don't like roles where you have to accomplish an objective, but are given no abilities to help you accomplish said objective. Giving the survivor the ability to help themself would be a welcome addition, and make it more fun to play that role. As it stands now, the survivor role sucks balls.

Yeah, plain survivors are tough. In the Interwebz game, Torres made F-16 a Survivor with a roleblock. That was really cool because F-16 used the RB to save his life twice I think, and almost won. I think mods should definently give survivors some type of power to help them along.

As for the other role, I really like the voodoo lady. It seems like it'd be really fun to play both as the user and the victim. If you're afflicted by it you have to check your posts really carefully to ensure you didnt say anything wrong. It seems like an interesting twist similar to Marauder's role where you had to speak spanish all game.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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1/22/2012 8:23:41 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/21/2012 8:59:29 PM, drafterman wrote:
I've actually gone throw the list of roles on Epic mafia and considered how they may be applied here.

You and everybody else.

It's up to the mod and what will best balance the game.
President of DDO
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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1/22/2012 8:26:48 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/21/2012 11:34:03 PM, medic0506 wrote:
Actually, I think this would be a great adaptation to our current survivor role, which I hate. I don't like roles where you have to accomplish an objective, but are given no abilities to help you accomplish said objective. Giving the survivor the ability to help themself would be a welcome addition, and make it more fun to play that role. As it stands now, the survivor role sucks balls.

The mod determines how particular roles will work. Several times I have been the Survivor with no additional help (which I agree is bollocks). In my opinion, the Survivor if a 3P role should be Bulletproof. When I have put Survivors in games I've modded, I believe I made them PGO's as well. In Lost mafia, my Survivor actually won because of this (tvellalott) though admittedly he played very well. Similarly, Ore_Ele was the PGO Survivor in my last game and made it pretty far.

I personally hate roles that rely on lotteries, unless the mod somehow confirms how they chose the "random" fate of someone. I hated this about blackhawk's most recent game, as a recent example.
President of DDO
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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1/22/2012 12:28:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/22/2012 8:26:48 AM, Danielle wrote:
At 1/21/2012 11:34:03 PM, medic0506 wrote:
Actually, I think this would be a great adaptation to our current survivor role, which I hate. I don't like roles where you have to accomplish an objective, but are given no abilities to help you accomplish said objective. Giving the survivor the ability to help themself would be a welcome addition, and make it more fun to play that role. As it stands now, the survivor role sucks balls.

The mod determines how particular roles will work. Several times I have been the Survivor with no additional help (which I agree is bollocks). In my opinion, the Survivor if a 3P role should be Bulletproof. When I have put Survivors in games I've modded, I believe I made them PGO's as well. In Lost mafia, my Survivor actually won because of this (tvellalott) though admittedly he played very well. Similarly, Ore_Ele was the PGO Survivor in my last game and made it pretty far.

I personally hate roles that rely on lotteries, unless the mod somehow confirms how they chose the "random" fate of someone. I hated this about blackhawk's most recent game, as a recent example.

Yeah... in classic you definitely had me as only survivor. Against a cult too, no less.
Logic_on_rails
Posts: 2,445
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1/22/2012 2:40:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The main problem with survivor currently is the anti town sentiment towards the role. A while back it would be 'survivor can win with the town and both get 1st place, so don't kill the survivor' . Now people just kill the survivor for next to no reason, which makes it a very tough role.

I have an idea about innovating the survivor role, but I can't really talk about that currently.
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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1/22/2012 3:27:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I prefer mafiascum and forum mafia to EpicMafia.

Although, real life, original party game Mafia wins over everyone.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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1/22/2012 3:34:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/22/2012 2:40:05 PM, Logic_on_rails wrote:
The main problem with survivor currently is the anti town sentiment towards the role. A while back it would be 'survivor can win with the town and both get 1st place, so don't kill the survivor' . Now people just kill the survivor for next to no reason, which makes it a very tough role.

I have an idea about innovating the survivor role, but I can't really talk about that currently.

The problem with that previous system is that the survivor automatically gets a free win, which is unfair to the other players in the game.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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1/22/2012 3:43:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I don't like the idea of the survivor being able to win alongside the winning team. Being a survivor without powers is extremely difficult and near impossible to win. Torres had the best idea. Give the survivor some power (like a role-block for instance) so they can protect themselves if needed. This makes the power of the role somewhere intermediate between survivor and serial killer.

Other powers that a survivor could get: Redirector, Bus Driver, Dodger, etc. One really good idea is to make the survivor a JOAT with 5-6 powers like a kill, protect, roleblock, etc.
Logic_on_rails
Posts: 2,445
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1/22/2012 4:00:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The problem with making survivors not win with others (if they live they get first, town gets 2nd etc.) is that then nobody has an incentive to keep the survivor alive. This means the survivor, role modifiers aside, is a third party vanilla, without a factional kill, team-mates to support in times of trouble and so on. This makes the survivor's job incredibly difficult.

The main problem is that if the survivor wins by themselves then they must stay hidden (or Mafia and town will kill them) . Unfortunately, they have far less information than anybody else, so they'll be caught out fastest (unless they appear innocent) .

If survivor wins with others then Mafia has no reason to kill the survivor (vanilla who could turn). The issue the survivor faces is avoiding town lynches, which are common policy. How do you avoid survivor lynches? Well, I'm not going that far until I use my ideas myself.
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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1/22/2012 4:02:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/22/2012 4:00:27 PM, Logic_on_rails wrote:
The problem with making survivors not win with others (if they live they get first, town gets 2nd etc.) is that then nobody has an incentive to keep the survivor alive. This means the survivor, role modifiers aside, is a third party vanilla, without a factional kill, team-mates to support in times of trouble and so on. This makes the survivor's job incredibly difficult.

The main problem is that if the survivor wins by themselves then they must stay hidden (or Mafia and town will kill them) . Unfortunately, they have far less information than anybody else, so they'll be caught out fastest (unless they appear innocent) .

If survivor wins with others then Mafia has no reason to kill the survivor (vanilla who could turn). The issue the survivor faces is avoiding town lynches, which are common policy. How do you avoid survivor lynches? Well, I'm not going that far until I use my ideas myself.

I like the survivor JOAT idea, but I am thinking about adding a survivor role-cop to my next game. That would given them an investigative role, so they would be not be underpowered. Role cop is also a scummy role, so it does not make them particularly overpowered either.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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1/22/2012 5:48:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/22/2012 4:02:43 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 1/22/2012 4:00:27 PM, Logic_on_rails wrote:
The problem with making survivors not win with others (if they live they get first, town gets 2nd etc.) is that then nobody has an incentive to keep the survivor alive. This means the survivor, role modifiers aside, is a third party vanilla, without a factional kill, team-mates to support in times of trouble and so on. This makes the survivor's job incredibly difficult.

The main problem is that if the survivor wins by themselves then they must stay hidden (or Mafia and town will kill them) . Unfortunately, they have far less information than anybody else, so they'll be caught out fastest (unless they appear innocent) .

If survivor wins with others then Mafia has no reason to kill the survivor (vanilla who could turn). The issue the survivor faces is avoiding town lynches, which are common policy. How do you avoid survivor lynches? Well, I'm not going that far until I use my ideas myself.

I like the survivor JOAT idea, but I am thinking about adding a survivor role-cop to my next game. That would given them an investigative role, so they would be not be underpowered. Role cop is also a scummy role, so it does not make them particularly overpowered either.

I'm not sure how rolecop will help the survivor, unless they have some ability to block or kill or protect or something, what good does it do for them to know roles??
UnStupendousMan
Posts: 3,475
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1/22/2012 5:53:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/22/2012 5:48:44 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 1/22/2012 4:02:43 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 1/22/2012 4:00:27 PM, Logic_on_rails wrote:
The problem with making survivors not win with others (if they live they get first, town gets 2nd etc.) is that then nobody has an incentive to keep the survivor alive. This means the survivor, role modifiers aside, is a third party vanilla, without a factional kill, team-mates to support in times of trouble and so on. This makes the survivor's job incredibly difficult.

The main problem is that if the survivor wins by themselves then they must stay hidden (or Mafia and town will kill them) . Unfortunately, they have far less information than anybody else, so they'll be caught out fastest (unless they appear innocent) .

If survivor wins with others then Mafia has no reason to kill the survivor (vanilla who could turn). The issue the survivor faces is avoiding town lynches, which are common policy. How do you avoid survivor lynches? Well, I'm not going that far until I use my ideas myself.

I like the survivor JOAT idea, but I am thinking about adding a survivor role-cop to my next game. That would given them an investigative role, so they would be not be underpowered. Role cop is also a scummy role, so it does not make them particularly overpowered either.

I'm not sure how rolecop will help the survivor, unless they have some ability to block or kill or protect or something, what good does it do for them to know roles??

I personally like Survivor/Mason recruiter (who is NOT cult, BTW)
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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1/22/2012 6:07:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/22/2012 5:48:44 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 1/22/2012 4:02:43 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 1/22/2012 4:00:27 PM, Logic_on_rails wrote:
The problem with making survivors not win with others (if they live they get first, town gets 2nd etc.) is that then nobody has an incentive to keep the survivor alive. This means the survivor, role modifiers aside, is a third party vanilla, without a factional kill, team-mates to support in times of trouble and so on. This makes the survivor's job incredibly difficult.

The main problem is that if the survivor wins by themselves then they must stay hidden (or Mafia and town will kill them) . Unfortunately, they have far less information than anybody else, so they'll be caught out fastest (unless they appear innocent) .

If survivor wins with others then Mafia has no reason to kill the survivor (vanilla who could turn). The issue the survivor faces is avoiding town lynches, which are common policy. How do you avoid survivor lynches? Well, I'm not going that far until I use my ideas myself.

I like the survivor JOAT idea, but I am thinking about adding a survivor role-cop to my next game. That would given them an investigative role, so they would be not be underpowered. Role cop is also a scummy role, so it does not make them particularly overpowered either.

I'm not sure how rolecop will help the survivor, unless they have some ability to block or kill or protect or something, what good does it do for them to know roles??

It gives the town an incentive to keep them alive. Plus, they can fakeclaim rolecop, which keeps the doctor on them.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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1/22/2012 6:07:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/22/2012 4:00:27 PM, Logic_on_rails wrote:
The problem with making survivors not win with others (if they live they get first, town gets 2nd etc.) is that then nobody has an incentive to keep the survivor alive. This means the survivor, role modifiers aside, is a third party vanilla, without a factional kill, team-mates to support in times of trouble and so on. This makes the survivor's job incredibly difficult.

The main problem is that if the survivor wins by themselves then they must stay hidden (or Mafia and town will kill them) . Unfortunately, they have far less information than anybody else, so they'll be caught out fastest (unless they appear innocent) .

If survivor wins with others then Mafia has no reason to kill the survivor (vanilla who could turn). The issue the survivor faces is avoiding town lynches, which are common policy. How do you avoid survivor lynches? Well, I'm not going that far until I use my ideas myself.

I mean, there's the rub. If you allow for joint wins, then survivor becomes too easy. 1) lynching a 3rd party is a technical mislynch, as it increases the mafia voting power; and 2) mafia won't waste a kill on what is essentially a vanilla.

So, since no one has a reason to kill the survivor, then it's pretty much a guaranteed win for that person. IMO, the only threat the survivor can pose is to rob a team of its win by surviving despite the odds. That's why it's called "Survivor"
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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1/22/2012 6:13:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/22/2012 6:07:22 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 1/22/2012 4:00:27 PM, Logic_on_rails wrote:
The problem with making survivors not win with others (if they live they get first, town gets 2nd etc.) is that then nobody has an incentive to keep the survivor alive. This means the survivor, role modifiers aside, is a third party vanilla, without a factional kill, team-mates to support in times of trouble and so on. This makes the survivor's job incredibly difficult.

The main problem is that if the survivor wins by themselves then they must stay hidden (or Mafia and town will kill them) . Unfortunately, they have far less information than anybody else, so they'll be caught out fastest (unless they appear innocent) .

If survivor wins with others then Mafia has no reason to kill the survivor (vanilla who could turn). The issue the survivor faces is avoiding town lynches, which are common policy. How do you avoid survivor lynches? Well, I'm not going that far until I use my ideas myself.

I mean, there's the rub. If you allow for joint wins, then survivor becomes too easy. 1) lynching a 3rd party is a technical mislynch, as it increases the mafia voting power; and 2) mafia won't waste a kill on what is essentially a vanilla.

So, since no one has a reason to kill the survivor, then it's pretty much a guaranteed win for that person. IMO, the only threat the survivor can pose is to rob a team of its win by surviving despite the odds. That's why it's called "Survivor"

But, they should have SOME type of role to defend themselves, right? Otherwise, the role becomes unplayable.
Logic_on_rails
Posts: 2,445
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1/22/2012 6:24:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/22/2012 6:13:57 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 1/22/2012 6:07:22 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 1/22/2012 4:00:27 PM, Logic_on_rails wrote:
The problem with making survivors not win with others (if they live they get first, town gets 2nd etc.) is that then nobody has an incentive to keep the survivor alive. This means the survivor, role modifiers aside, is a third party vanilla, without a factional kill, team-mates to support in times of trouble and so on. This makes the survivor's job incredibly difficult.

The main problem is that if the survivor wins by themselves then they must stay hidden (or Mafia and town will kill them) . Unfortunately, they have far less information than anybody else, so they'll be caught out fastest (unless they appear innocent) .

If survivor wins with others then Mafia has no reason to kill the survivor (vanilla who could turn). The issue the survivor faces is avoiding town lynches, which are common policy. How do you avoid survivor lynches? Well, I'm not going that far until I use my ideas myself.

I mean, there's the rub. If you allow for joint wins, then survivor becomes too easy. 1) lynching a 3rd party is a technical mislynch, as it increases the mafia voting power; and 2) mafia won't waste a kill on what is essentially a vanilla.

So, since no one has a reason to kill the survivor, then it's pretty much a guaranteed win for that person. IMO, the only threat the survivor can pose is to rob a team of its win by surviving despite the odds. That's why it's called "Survivor"

But, they should have SOME type of role to defend themselves, right? Otherwise, the role becomes unplayable.

Correct, but it shouldn't be a random role, it's got to be some role that helps them survive (ie. survivor / watcher isn't helpful except for claiming watcher) . In addition, that extra role must not be duplicated. Ie. Mason / survivor could work if there was no other mason, especially as those who you recruit are convinced you are the mason, and so won't vote to lynch you. Finally, the extra role must be carefully chosen as otherwise Mafia will kill the survivor. Mason / survivor is a decent choice, but it paints a pro-town survivor.

My solution to the survivor issue is quite direct and retains the idea of the survivor being neutral - ie. they have to convince town that they are town (whereas mason / survivor or something like that means 'play along with the town and hope the Mafia don't kill you) .
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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1/22/2012 6:26:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/22/2012 6:24:58 PM, Logic_on_rails wrote:
At 1/22/2012 6:13:57 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 1/22/2012 6:07:22 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 1/22/2012 4:00:27 PM, Logic_on_rails wrote:
The problem with making survivors not win with others (if they live they get first, town gets 2nd etc.) is that then nobody has an incentive to keep the survivor alive. This means the survivor, role modifiers aside, is a third party vanilla, without a factional kill, team-mates to support in times of trouble and so on. This makes the survivor's job incredibly difficult.

The main problem is that if the survivor wins by themselves then they must stay hidden (or Mafia and town will kill them) . Unfortunately, they have far less information than anybody else, so they'll be caught out fastest (unless they appear innocent) .

If survivor wins with others then Mafia has no reason to kill the survivor (vanilla who could turn). The issue the survivor faces is avoiding town lynches, which are common policy. How do you avoid survivor lynches? Well, I'm not going that far until I use my ideas myself.

I mean, there's the rub. If you allow for joint wins, then survivor becomes too easy. 1) lynching a 3rd party is a technical mislynch, as it increases the mafia voting power; and 2) mafia won't waste a kill on what is essentially a vanilla.

So, since no one has a reason to kill the survivor, then it's pretty much a guaranteed win for that person. IMO, the only threat the survivor can pose is to rob a team of its win by surviving despite the odds. That's why it's called "Survivor"

But, they should have SOME type of role to defend themselves, right? Otherwise, the role becomes unplayable.

Correct, but it shouldn't be a random role, it's got to be some role that helps them survive (ie. survivor / watcher isn't helpful except for claiming watcher) . In addition, that extra role must not be duplicated. Ie. Mason / survivor could work if there was no other mason, especially as those who you recruit are convinced you are the mason, and so won't vote to lynch you. Finally, the extra role must be carefully chosen as otherwise Mafia will kill the survivor. Mason / survivor is a decent choice, but it paints a pro-town survivor.

My solution to the survivor issue is quite direct and retains the idea of the survivor being neutral - ie. they have to convince town that they are town (whereas mason / survivor or something like that means 'play along with the town and hope the Mafia don't kill you) .

What exactly is your solution?
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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1/22/2012 6:29:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I think the point of a survivor is to be somewhat anti-town and hidden. Openly claiming survivor is a terrible move for the survivor and it guarantees a lynch.

Another point to make is that having the survivor gives the mafia a free mislynch. Mafia have a certain number of non-mafia lynches that they need to achieve before they win and the survivor reduces this by one. So, the survivor actually ends up being pro-mafia just by existing.