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Idea Proposal: Mafia Intermediate Series

royalpaladin
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1/26/2012 9:53:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
As we can see from drafterman's current Beginner game curriculum, Beginner games are highly popular and helpful. The problem, however, is that there are too many Intermediates signing up for the Beginner games. This not only causes a reduction in the number of beginners who are able to play, but it also minimizes the skills that intermediate players can gain from the Beginner games.

I would thus like to propose that we create an "Intermediate" series for intermediate players to learn more advanced tactics. This would decongest the sign ups for the Beginner series and also allow more people to learn at the same time.

Of course, we need experienced mods are community approval . . .
royalpaladin
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1/26/2012 9:54:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/26/2012 9:53:22 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
As we can see from drafterman's current Beginner game curriculum, Beginner games are highly popular and helpful. The problem, however, is that there are too many Intermediates signing up for the Beginner games. This not only causes a reduction in the number of beginners who are able to play, but it also minimizes the skills that intermediate players can gain from the Beginner games.

I would thus like to propose that we create an "Intermediate" series for intermediate players to learn more advanced tactics. This would decongest the sign ups for the Beginner series and also allow more people to learn at the same time.

Of course, we need experienced mods and community approval . . .

Fixed
blackhawk1331
Posts: 4,932
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1/26/2012 9:59:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Once you finish the beginner games, you go to regular games. You can even start at regular games if you have an idea of what's going on. I played a regular game or two then joined in on a beginner series.
Because you said it was a waste, numb nuts. - Drafter

So fvck you. :) - TV

Use prima facie correctly or not at all. - Noumena
Logic_on_rails
Posts: 2,445
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1/26/2012 10:01:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
A very good idea. However, getting participation would be difficult and inactivity could potentially be a problem as a beginner game + intermediate game + other games is problematic.

Often getting the tag of 'experienced' just requires playing more games and doing well. Also, being the reason for your team winning will help get you respected (key term; more important to be 'respected' than 'experienced' ) very quickly.

Also, another way to improve is to simply PM skilled players and try and discuss Mafia with them. I've never done this myself but others have done so (meaning, they have PM'd me) .

The general idea of an intermediate series has merit as there are certain things to learn that are outside the scope of a beginner series (subtle arts like persuasion, orchestration, role claiming etc.) , however, there are issues with the proposal and one just has to play a few more games to become 'experienced' .
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
Jordan56
Posts: 1,987
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1/26/2012 10:01:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/26/2012 9:59:31 PM, blackhawk1331 wrote:
Once you finish the beginner games, you go to regular games. You can even start at regular games if you have an idea of what's going on. I played a regular game or two then joined in on a beginner series.

Yes, but the idea of the intermediate games is to get further help and become a better player before thrusting yourself into a more advance game.
blackhawk1331
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1/26/2012 10:36:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/26/2012 10:01:29 PM, Jordan56 wrote:
At 1/26/2012 9:59:31 PM, blackhawk1331 wrote:
Once you finish the beginner games, you go to regular games. You can even start at regular games if you have an idea of what's going on. I played a regular game or two then joined in on a beginner series.

Yes, but the idea of the intermediate games is to get further help and become a better player before thrusting yourself into a more advance game.

You can get that help in regular games, though. Plus, at what point are you not good enough to be experienced, but better than intermediate. How do you determine that? Personally, if I'm able to be active in a game, and I'm town, I can do pretty well. As mafia, though, I'm really bad at coming up with fake claims. Especially if I don't know the theme. I'm rarely mafia, though. So where do I get placed. If I'm playing town, I'm experienced. As mafia, I'm probably beginner to intermediate. If I know the theme, though, or am daring enough, I can do a really good job as mafia. I've pulled off both miller and doctor claims as mafia. To be fair, the mafia was told there was no doc that game, but still, it's the mafia claiming doctor.
Because you said it was a waste, numb nuts. - Drafter

So fvck you. :) - TV

Use prima facie correctly or not at all. - Noumena
BlackVoid
Posts: 9,170
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1/26/2012 11:43:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I agree with Blackhawk. I played three beginner games, then was thrown into the Dexter game, which was pretty crazy and full of crazy night phases, but I still understood what was going on and did ok. But even then, most regular games arent nearly as complicated. Even if you've just played 2-4 games, as long as you've learned how to play, being in regular games is pretty easy.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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1/26/2012 11:49:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The issue is not "being in games" or understanding them; rather, it is important to learn how to deceive others effectively with fakeclaims, b.s. stories, etc. I am not very good at doing that, and I am not sure that I am learning how to use these tactics in the normal games.
BlackVoid
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1/26/2012 11:51:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/26/2012 11:49:21 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
The issue is not "being in games" or understanding them; rather, it is important to learn how to deceive others effectively with fakeclaims, b.s. stories, etc. I am not very good at doing that, and I am not sure that I am learning how to use these tactics in the normal games.

If you need help with fake claims and making a convincing story, then your experienced mafia buddies can help you out.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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1/26/2012 11:53:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/26/2012 11:51:19 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
At 1/26/2012 11:49:21 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
The issue is not "being in games" or understanding them; rather, it is important to learn how to deceive others effectively with fakeclaims, b.s. stories, etc. I am not very good at doing that, and I am not sure that I am learning how to use these tactics in the normal games.

If you need help with fake claims and making a convincing story, then your experienced mafia buddies can help you out.

Ok, but what happens in situations in which I am the survivor or if I am a townie and I want to lie about my role so that the mafia does not kill me right away? Who should I turn to for help in those situations?

This is precisely why these games need to exist.

I mean, is anyone adverse to trying one out as part of a pilot program?
blackhawk1331
Posts: 4,932
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1/27/2012 5:34:02 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/26/2012 11:49:21 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
The issue is not "being in games" or understanding them; rather, it is important to learn how to deceive others effectively with fakeclaims, b.s. stories, etc. I am not very good at doing that, and I am not sure that I am learning how to use these tactics in the normal games.

I generally stick as close to the truth as possible when fake claiming.
Because you said it was a waste, numb nuts. - Drafter

So fvck you. :) - TV

Use prima facie correctly or not at all. - Noumena
blackhawk1331
Posts: 4,932
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1/27/2012 5:35:27 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/26/2012 11:53:44 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 1/26/2012 11:51:19 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
At 1/26/2012 11:49:21 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
The issue is not "being in games" or understanding them; rather, it is important to learn how to deceive others effectively with fakeclaims, b.s. stories, etc. I am not very good at doing that, and I am not sure that I am learning how to use these tactics in the normal games.

If you need help with fake claims and making a convincing story, then your experienced mafia buddies can help you out.

Ok, but what happens in situations in which I am the survivor or if I am a townie and I want to lie about my role so that the mafia does not kill me right away? Who should I turn to for help in those situations?

Survivor: claim miller. Never lie as a townie. That's a good way to get killed.

This is precisely why these games need to exist.

I mean, is anyone adverse to trying one out as part of a pilot program?
Because you said it was a waste, numb nuts. - Drafter

So fvck you. :) - TV

Use prima facie correctly or not at all. - Noumena
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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1/29/2012 2:16:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
When proposing an idea like this, I think the important thing to consider is: what is the eventual goal of this? You say you would like to learn more advanced strategies in mafia such as fake-claims and coming up with great stories. I think the key to this is to closely observe the regular games and see what strategies the mafia came up with to fool you, and don't let them do it again. When you are mafia, the best way to learn is to observe your more experienced teammates come up with fake claims - something you will not get by playing intermediate games. If you really want to learn the best strategies, you have to play with the best players.

If you are a third party or town and want to lie about your role or allude to a different role, then look through games where people have done that to trick the mafia and find out why it worked. For instance Logic in Star Trek mafia, PR in beginner's 2.4 and BlackVoid in HvV cartoon edition. Playing in intermediate games that exclude the best players would actually hurt your learning process as opposed to help it.

On a side note, I'd say that you are good as mafia as evidenced by your wins in the HvV and Monk games.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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1/29/2012 2:19:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Also, I'll say this on your general play style: be more cautious and don't rush to conclusions. Don't vote at MYLO until everyone remaining has role claimed. Then, carefully evaluate all the claims before casting a vote. Rushing always hinders the town.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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1/29/2012 2:21:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/29/2012 2:16:55 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
When proposing an idea like this, I think the important thing to consider is: what is the eventual goal of this? You say you would like to learn more advanced strategies in mafia such as fake-claims and coming up with great stories. I think the key to this is to closely observe the regular games and see what strategies the mafia came up with to fool you, and don't let them do it again. When you are mafia, the best way to learn is to observe your more experienced teammates come up with fake claims - something you will not get by playing intermediate games. If you really want to learn the best strategies, you have to play with the best players.

If you are a third party or town and want to lie about your role or allude to a different role, then look through games where people have done that to trick the mafia and find out why it worked. For instance Logic in Star Trek mafia, PR in beginner's 2.4 and BlackVoid in HvV cartoon edition. Playing in intermediate games that exclude the best players would actually hurt your learning process as opposed to help it.

On a side note, I'd say that you are good as mafia as evidenced by your wins in the HvV and Monk games.

I think the main point of the proposal is to practice these advanced strategies is a more forgiving environment. Messing up on a fake claim or something like that in a regular game will most likely get you lynched by the experienced players. In these types of games, since most of the people played will be intermediates, you will be able to defend yourself more easily and therefore gain a wide variety of skills.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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1/29/2012 2:23:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/29/2012 2:21:57 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 1/29/2012 2:16:55 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
When proposing an idea like this, I think the important thing to consider is: what is the eventual goal of this? You say you would like to learn more advanced strategies in mafia such as fake-claims and coming up with great stories. I think the key to this is to closely observe the regular games and see what strategies the mafia came up with to fool you, and don't let them do it again. When you are mafia, the best way to learn is to observe your more experienced teammates come up with fake claims - something you will not get by playing intermediate games. If you really want to learn the best strategies, you have to play with the best players.

If you are a third party or town and want to lie about your role or allude to a different role, then look through games where people have done that to trick the mafia and find out why it worked. For instance Logic in Star Trek mafia, PR in beginner's 2.4 and BlackVoid in HvV cartoon edition. Playing in intermediate games that exclude the best players would actually hurt your learning process as opposed to help it.

On a side note, I'd say that you are good as mafia as evidenced by your wins in the HvV and Monk games.

I think the main point of the proposal is to practice these advanced strategies is a more forgiving environment. Messing up on a fake claim or something like that in a regular game will most likely get you lynched by the experienced players. In these types of games, since most of the people played will be intermediates, you will be able to defend yourself more easily and therefore gain a wide variety of skills.

This.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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1/29/2012 2:30:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/29/2012 2:23:58 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
I think the main point of the proposal is to practice these advanced strategies is a more forgiving environment. Messing up on a fake claim or something like that in a regular game will most likely get you lynched by the experienced players. In these types of games, since most of the people played will be intermediates, you will be able to defend yourself more easily and therefore gain a wide variety of skills.

This.

But how will you learn to make good claims if you are always in a forgiving environment with no good players who can test you? You can fake-claim to a couple of noobs and get away with it (HvV), whereas if more experienced players were around, you would be caught. You can keep fooling new players in these intermediate games, but you finally do arrive on the scene of regular games, you will lack the skills to take on the best at DDO.
blackhawk1331
Posts: 4,932
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1/29/2012 2:31:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/29/2012 2:16:55 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
When proposing an idea like this, I think the important thing to consider is: what is the eventual goal of this? You say you would like to learn more advanced strategies in mafia such as fake-claims and coming up with great stories. I think the key to this is to closely observe the regular games and see what strategies the mafia came up with to fool you, and don't let them do it again. When you are mafia, the best way to learn is to observe your more experienced teammates come up with fake claims - something you will not get by playing intermediate games. If you really want to learn the best strategies, you have to play with the best players.

If you are a third party or town and want to lie about your role or allude to a different role, then look through games where people have done that to trick the mafia and find out why it worked. For instance Logic in Star Trek mafia, PR in beginner's 2.4 and BlackVoid in HvV cartoon edition. Playing in intermediate games that exclude the best players would actually hurt your learning process as opposed to help it.

On a side note, I'd say that you are good as mafia as evidenced by your wins in the HvV and Monk games.

What do you mean LoR in star trek? Wasn't he town?
Because you said it was a waste, numb nuts. - Drafter

So fvck you. :) - TV

Use prima facie correctly or not at all. - Noumena
blackhawk1331
Posts: 4,932
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1/29/2012 2:32:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/29/2012 2:21:57 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 1/29/2012 2:16:55 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
When proposing an idea like this, I think the important thing to consider is: what is the eventual goal of this? You say you would like to learn more advanced strategies in mafia such as fake-claims and coming up with great stories. I think the key to this is to closely observe the regular games and see what strategies the mafia came up with to fool you, and don't let them do it again. When you are mafia, the best way to learn is to observe your more experienced teammates come up with fake claims - something you will not get by playing intermediate games. If you really want to learn the best strategies, you have to play with the best players.

If you are a third party or town and want to lie about your role or allude to a different role, then look through games where people have done that to trick the mafia and find out why it worked. For instance Logic in Star Trek mafia, PR in beginner's 2.4 and BlackVoid in HvV cartoon edition. Playing in intermediate games that exclude the best players would actually hurt your learning process as opposed to help it.

On a side note, I'd say that you are good as mafia as evidenced by your wins in the HvV and Monk games.

I think the main point of the proposal is to practice these advanced strategies is a more forgiving environment. Messing up on a fake claim or something like that in a regular game will most likely get you lynched by the experienced players. In these types of games, since most of the people played will be intermediates, you will be able to defend yourself more easily and therefore gain a wide variety of skills.

But when you move up to regular games, you're fake claims still aren't up to the level of the pros.
Because you said it was a waste, numb nuts. - Drafter

So fvck you. :) - TV

Use prima facie correctly or not at all. - Noumena
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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1/29/2012 2:34:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/29/2012 2:31:50 PM, blackhawk1331 wrote:

What do you mean LoR in star trek? Wasn't he town?

Yes. I was talking about how in DP1, he claimed that he needed the night phase to do a little work, and said that we could afford to be aggressive. The mafia thought he had a power role and targeted him. He was the JOAT who protected everyone on NP1 leading the mafia to think that he was bulletproof. It was an ingenious way to avoid getting targeted and well executed. It worked particularly well for a player like LoR who is consistently targeted early.
blackhawk1331
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1/29/2012 2:42:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/29/2012 2:34:30 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 1/29/2012 2:31:50 PM, blackhawk1331 wrote:

What do you mean LoR in star trek? Wasn't he town?

Yes. I was talking about how in DP1, he claimed that he needed the night phase to do a little work, and said that we could afford to be aggressive. The mafia thought he had a power role and targeted him. He was the JOAT who protected everyone on NP1 leading the mafia to think that he was bulletproof. It was an ingenious way to avoid getting targeted and well executed. It worked particularly well for a player like LoR who is consistently targeted early.

Oh yeah. It's sad when the mod doesn't remember what he did.
Because you said it was a waste, numb nuts. - Drafter

So fvck you. :) - TV

Use prima facie correctly or not at all. - Noumena
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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1/29/2012 2:46:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/29/2012 2:30:06 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 1/29/2012 2:23:58 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
I think the main point of the proposal is to practice these advanced strategies is a more forgiving environment. Messing up on a fake claim or something like that in a regular game will most likely get you lynched by the experienced players. In these types of games, since most of the people played will be intermediates, you will be able to defend yourself more easily and therefore gain a wide variety of skills.

This.

But how will you learn to make good claims if you are always in a forgiving environment with no good players who can test you? You can fake-claim to a couple of noobs and get away with it (HvV), whereas if more experienced players were around, you would be caught. You can keep fooling new players in these intermediate games, but you finally do arrive on the scene of regular games, you will lack the skills to take on the best at DDO.

Yes, that's true. However, there is a difference between being thrust from a beginner game to a regular game almost immediately to have a sort of learning experience getting there. The skills learned from beginner games will most likely make you lose your regular games. Although, if you have an intermediary step between these two, people will be able to develop their mafia skills more efficiently than by getting killed in the regular games.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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1/29/2012 2:46:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/29/2012 2:30:06 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 1/29/2012 2:23:58 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
I think the main point of the proposal is to practice these advanced strategies is a more forgiving environment. Messing up on a fake claim or something like that in a regular game will most likely get you lynched by the experienced players. In these types of games, since most of the people played will be intermediates, you will be able to defend yourself more easily and therefore gain a wide variety of skills.

This.

But how will you learn to make good claims if you are always in a forgiving environment with no good players who can test you? You can fake-claim to a couple of noobs and get away with it (HvV), whereas if more experienced players were around, you would be caught. You can keep fooling new players in these intermediate games, but you finally do arrive on the scene of regular games, you will lack the skills to take on the best at DDO.

Obviously one is not going to become the best fake-claimer in existence by playing in intermediate games, but having a more relaxed environment that one can use to experiment before contending with experienced players is probably more helpful than creating a horrendous fake-claim and being lynched right away. If I am constantly slaughtered by you and LDF every time that I fake-claim, for example, I am not going to become any better at fakeclaiming because I will not have a hands-on basis for determining which types of claims I can succesfully make. The Intermediate games would provide players with a slightly less structured environment with greater room for experimentation.
Logic_on_rails
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1/29/2012 2:53:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Put simply, over time regular games will get any competent and intelligent players to the level of the 'regulars' .

If you are looking to improve then ask long time players for games to look at. Simply looking at Mafia games (even ones you aren't in) makes you better, more alert and more discerning. There are specific games that show the development of new tactics or are good for showcasing certain tactics.

A few examples:

1. The recent Aerial Warfare game is a great example of how to control the DPs as Mafia.
2. Pixar vs. Dreamworks Mafia shows many things. Watch how I 'link' TV, a townie, to me, a seriously suspect Mafia. Also look at one of the craziest claims ever...
3. Assassins' Creed Mafia (the 2nd DP in particular) is instructional in arguing (me and Bluesteel) , what not to do as a mod and also the little touches one should put into fake claiming.

There are obviously many more.

Put simply, read over some great games to get better. Royal, you are quite a competent player, so I wouldn't be worried. The issue is with the beginners who after your amount of games are still messing up with the greatest ease...
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
blackhawk1331
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1/29/2012 3:03:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/29/2012 2:46:03 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 1/29/2012 2:30:06 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 1/29/2012 2:23:58 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
I think the main point of the proposal is to practice these advanced strategies is a more forgiving environment. Messing up on a fake claim or something like that in a regular game will most likely get you lynched by the experienced players. In these types of games, since most of the people played will be intermediates, you will be able to defend yourself more easily and therefore gain a wide variety of skills.

This.

But how will you learn to make good claims if you are always in a forgiving environment with no good players who can test you? You can fake-claim to a couple of noobs and get away with it (HvV), whereas if more experienced players were around, you would be caught. You can keep fooling new players in these intermediate games, but you finally do arrive on the scene of regular games, you will lack the skills to take on the best at DDO.

Yes, that's true. However, there is a difference between being thrust from a beginner game to a regular game almost immediately to have a sort of learning experience getting there. The skills learned from beginner games will most likely make you lose your regular games. Although, if you have an intermediary step between these two, people will be able to develop their mafia skills more efficiently than by getting killed in the regular games.

You have three, now four, beginner games. They are designed to prepare you for regular games. From there, you get thrown in and learn.
Because you said it was a waste, numb nuts. - Drafter

So fvck you. :) - TV

Use prima facie correctly or not at all. - Noumena
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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2/3/2012 8:38:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I agree with this idea now. We should have separate categories for beginners, intermediate, and regular players. Intermediate players who don't feel like they can cut it with the regulars should stick to their own games until they feel they are ready.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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2/4/2012 12:23:40 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I know that I proposed this idea, but I am now against it. Transitioning from Beginner to Normal worked well for me, I think. I still have a great deal to learn, but I am much better than I would have been had I played in the Intermediate games.
OberHerr
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2/4/2012 12:25:14 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/4/2012 12:23:40 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
I know that I proposed this idea, but I am now against it. Transitioning from Beginner to Normal worked well for me, I think. I still have a great deal to learn, but I am much better than I would have been had I played in the Intermediate games.

I think you also have a knack for deception, and trickery. O.o

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